JONATHAN PAGEAU on taking the pulse of the CULTURE through ART

[@1stSonOfJames]

He’s perplexingly brilliant

[@Anthony-Avoiding-Babylon]

Ok, I’m legit jealous now Katherine 😂 Phenomenal conversation. Jonathan is one of my favorite creators.

[@catholicunscripted]

Thanks Anthony 😂 it’s from a few years back pre CU when I was doing my own thing, before God delivered the wonderful Gavin and Mark into my life 🙏

[@Anthony-Avoiding-Babylon]

@@catholicunscripted just as relevant today as when you had the conversation

[@lesadailey8343]

Thank you.

[@JonCrs10]

Cold open and Jonathan basically just said The Chicken Dance is cosmically more valuable than the entirety of Swan Lake. I love it!

[@angelacornell8660]

Modesty and humility are the key ingredients for the feminine.

[@luciamcdonnell1650]

Excellent conversation. TY!

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you Lucia

[@isbe1007]

The mystic GI Gurdjieff spoke about objective art - music, sculpture, architecture, dance etc. which, unlike purely subjective art, has the power to convey wisdom, insight, and transformative experience to the onlooker. Such art is not simply about “self-expression” although it can include it. The self-expression of the artist should also be a bridge to the ineffable, expressed by an individual but taking into account the true needs and aspirations of a culture.

[@silvinasi]

The feeding of the child, especially when exclusively breastfeeding for about 6 months, is so incredible to experience. The fact that I could see my children literarily duplicating their size just from something coming out o my body, made daily just for them , is absolutely incredible....it definitely felt like a "secret power", since you do not see the milk in the feeding process...

[@shanedilanchian4668]

Great interview! 😊

[@blondetapperware8289]

Thanks for having Jonathan on!

[@thomasmooney5653]

Think we've moved beyond the shock-value art to the bare-faced mocking the tax-payer/faithful/patron art; recently installed fountain in Vienna at a cost of million's.

[@donalfoley2412]

Chesterton made that same distinction between watching professional dances and taking part in a local dance. In sport too. Not that those great works of art aren’t great, but that if the price to pay for them is the withering away of dances and sports for normal people as opposed to specialists and professionals then the price is not worth paying.

[@johnfisher247]

The putting things upside down is something I have noticed. Vices as virtues, masculine women feminine men...who is the roster who is the hen.

[@richardvorwald5478]

Good example of mankind's ancient participatory art are the cave paintings from 26,000 yrs ago

[@revelation12_1]

Perhaps another way to think about it is that we are either doing things to build up ourselves (to be important in the eyes of the world) or we are using our talents to build up the kingdom of God. That is always the highest and greatest good.

[@knightrider585]

"You could have predicted it a hundred years ago." Yeah if you read G. K. Chesterton it is scary what he could predict a hundred years ago.

[@joolz5747]

Again - - - basically God created things a certain way. With a specific purpose… When we choose to change the way in which He planned to make something ….as far as its purpose, then it’s like using something for what it’s not made for! So if I want to use my frying pan for a hairdryer, it’s not going to work! And even small things matter because God has everything orderly and exacting, ….and we mess it up all the time we humans do! I think it’s important to go back to the original to the beginning and try to keep things as close to the original purpose as possible. And through the centuries, every time somebody change, something a little bit, it keeps changing keeps changing keeps changing until it’s unrecognizable. And that’s where we are today.

[@flamingdragon3861]

Some accidentally accurate symbolism in this regard, the Simpsons’ Catholic Heaven culminates in a River Dance by the whole of Heaven :D

[@johnny5731]

Did this interview take place before the one you guys uploaded 2 months ago?

[@catholicunscripted]

Yes, it is an older video

[@andrewcolquhoun3478]

I remember this from your Choose Agape channel! Thank you for the stimulating content, from an RS teacher in a girls' Catholic school.

[@threeinone6977]

Art ~ Definition, what a potential black hole! I still haven’t got a unified definition for this since my Art/Design (Industrial) course 30+ years ago. What I do dislike intensely though is being told something is art, on the whim of the “Emperor's New Clothes.” If I don’t agree with it, I’m some sort of uneducated pleb for whom “art” is lost. “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” is that it? As simple as that? That would certainly justify Duchamp et al… but really? When looking at a Bernini sculpture is that in anyway comparable to that, (imo) hideous, rough as old boots and sacrilegious monstrosity at Linz? No, for me, in the “fine arts”, (and this is in no way complete) an “artist” who creates “art works” is gifted with the following abilities: 1. Great skill. 2. An ability to express through a chosen medium an imaginative, aesthetic and intellectual expression, well above the average. Their works are not easily replicated by non-artists. As for the meaning of art and its impact on culture? Another potential black hole, book, after book, after book, after book…..and still more books in the making.

[@borderlands6606]

It's impossible to separate art from the art market. This has been true since art was first commodified, and was certainly the case for the Renaissance masters who were selling to the biggest buyer of the time, the church. In that sense art was already at the service of those writing the cheques. This was not always the case, for example Fra Angelico used his talent to decorate the walls of his own friary of San Marco, and monks who illustrated the pages of religious manuscripts and are unknown to us. What people frequently mean by good art is figurative art, that which reflects the human form and story. That is to ignore the many examples of visual abstraction, whether it be medieval stained glass, or the visual accretions of crucifixes, or the symbolism in Marian statuary like Walsingham. Beauty takes many forms, and none of them look like the work of Marko Rupnik.

[@outofoblivionproductions4015]

Duchamp and Bernini - both had great taste. But sadly Duchamp's work - will it survive the fire?

[@rosetocreation]

I always enjoy listening to Jonathan's discussions and appreciate Katherine's wise approach to each subject. However, I have some subtle concerns regarding the perspectives on art, religion, and human psychology often presented by Jonathan and his colleague, Jordan Peterson. A recurring issue is their tendency to obscure the nuances of human psychology, which can lead to an undue fear of nature and technology. They sometimes lump those who appreciate nature or AI with climate change activism or paganism, seemingly neglecting the recognition of God as the ultimate creator of all. Ultimately, anything in our lives can be used for good or evil, depending on our will and connection to God. Generating fear about AI or nature is unproductive; the key is to focus on how these are used in alignment with God's will. Katherine's experience of drifting away from her religion due to various influences highlights the importance of maintaining and cultivating one's connection to God. Nature and AI, in themselves, are not evil. It is patronizing to suggest that we might worship these things, and understanding human psychology should credit people's intelligence to see through such manipulation. At the end of the day, it is the will behind the use of AI or nature that determines their moral value. Avoiding or fearing these things can inadvertently bring them to the forefront of our lives because, as the saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum. Ultimately, God uses all things to sanctify us, and it is our responsibility to align our will with His and find the courage to face everything with Him. Thank you for fostering such thought-provoking discussions.

[@catholicunscripted]

Thanks for watching and for your thought provoking comment

[@HahaDamn]

I would like to see Jonathan have a discussion with Chris Cutrone, the later is a Marxist art historian, but I think they have more in common than you would think

[@outofoblivionproductions4015]

Juxtapose this interview with an Andy Warhol one 😅😅🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Refreshing to hear an intelligent artist. I thought they were extinct.

[@AugustasKunc]

+

[@knightrider585]

The question about children being raised as faithful Christians by a convert reminds me of the sort of wrong lesson the Baptist church took from their conversions, that they should deny their own children baptism from infancy so they can have some sort of artificially engineered conversion experience as young adults. If God wills it I will be baptised Eastern Orthodox early next year as an adult. If I ever had any more children (I am so adult I have adult children) I would baptise them as infants as they would be raised as Orthodox Christians. Experiencing adult baptism is a "gift" us prodigal sons might receive, but we only get that reward after dragging ourselves out of sleeping in a pig sty. It is not ideal.

[@catholicunscripted]

Which convert? It’s not clear what this relates to. Katherine was born into a Catholic family and is a cradle Catholic, was baptised as a baby and had her own children baptised as infants. The question wasn’t really about baptism, but about the level to which we should shield our children from those things that we know (aposteriori) are harmful, knowing that it was in part, that harm, that threw us into the arms of Christ. In other words, it was a question about how to navigate parenthood with appropriate balance.

[@knightrider585]

@@catholicunscripted Poor wording on my part. As a convert to Christianity I interpreted Katherine's falling away and return through my own lens is all.

[@catholicunscripted]

@@knightrider585yes, that makes sense. Was just trying to understand the point and set it in context. Thanks for watching and for engaging 🙏

[@pedrogorilla483]

So short, this lady de served at least 2h.

[@10.6.12.]

JP please keep your opinions to yourself. Another JP John Parr.

[@joolz5747]

I think art, and beauty might just be the same thing? I think it all stems from the Creator in God, …and I think that one can be inspired by nature and the Creation …in order to create art that is beautiful and participatory. Yes, we need to go back to the originals of everything. When we try to create what was already created beautiful we usually mess it up as humans. That’s my thought. Thank you for this discussion.

[@1stSonOfJames]

I believe you are correct technically. The expression of an artist is the subjective manifested. That’s why it was so beautifully put “art is the pulse of culture”. Artists speak to what beacons, be it majesty or tragedy. Either way it hangs on walls or is told through song etc….

[@buglepong]

13:00 exactly!! consciousness is the most valuable thing in the universe and _only humans_ have consciousness. therefore humanism is the highest philosophy.

[@opposingshore9322]

only humans have consciousness?? what a foolish statement of hubris.

[@buglepong]

@@opposingshore9322 nothing indicates the contrary. we looked and we found no other consciousness besides human

[@opposingshore9322]

@@buglepong and of course we can be trusted to know everything. 🙄

[@buglepong]

@@opposingshore9322 dont confuse not knowing everything with knowing nothing

[@opposingshore9322]

@@buglepong again a foolish point, using an extreme conclusion to violate a common sense perspective. various states of consciousness have been solidly established in many organisms, just because you don’t know that or choose to accept it, doesn’t mean it’s not true. we know a lot more than you think.