What is Symbolism? - With Matthieu Pageau

The first Pageau Brothers discussion. We look at the basic tenets of what constitutes appropriate symbolic understanding and interpretation using examples from the Bible and from Christianity.
Original discussion with Jordan Peterson: • Lecture VIII Backgroun...
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Website: www.pageaucarvings.com
Facebook: / jonathanpageau
Twitter: / pageaucarvings

[@christophermay9051]

Jonathan and Matthieu, This was a great video-- please continue these! I am eagerly anticipating your book, Matthieu. Question: you mentioned in another post on this thread (of which I can't find at the moment) that you didn't have any books to recommend about this approach to symbolism and that this was in large part the reason you are writing your book. However, you apparently have quite a sophisticated and seemingly valid framework for interpretation. What influences have you had that have led you to this framework? Is this a framework that you have come up with largely on your own based on a careful encounter with the material? Or are there techniques/perspectives here you've learned elsewhere?! "Traditional cosmology"-- is there anywhere I could find more about this?

[@eponaalbion]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5DKooB5maiAeq8

[@cheesedie]

were the reading materials ever recommended? If so I can't see the comment? I would love to get in on that.

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (John 3.12)

[@CrystallineWyvern]

Mattieu discovered Rene Guenon and then shared his work with Jonathon; they viewed it as just what they'd been searching for for so long in terms of someone with a deep grasp of symbolism.

[@chrisbranscome]

Tolkien's "Mythopoeia" is exactly about this. It's a poem that he wrote to C.S. Lewis before Lewis had become a Christian. Lewis had an intuitive sense that there was a deeper truth playing out in all of the "facts" around him. Tolkien wrote the poem to say "YES - you're exactly correct!"

[@antonia6059]

My mother in law grew up way out in the country in southern Mexico. She never went to school or learned to read. She speaks mostly using parables and symbolic language. She’s very intelligent and can interpret dreams and knows many things about the natural world. Great talk I really enjoyed it!

[@allisgrace1313]

Wow! I'm sure she if fascinating and enjoyable company! You are blessed!

[@androshchukx]

32:56 I never realized that a symbol is neither a metaphor or allegory, but rather the exact representation of what is being represented?

[@kerriatid]

Thanksgiving dinner at your house must be amazing. :)

[@CNArtDesign]

This video answers so many questions for me. Coming to Christianity through learning from people like Peterson and yourself, I’ve run into a few literal-vs.-symbolic rough spots in attending a local protestant church, and I couldn’t put my finger on the issue. I appreciate the church, and plan to continue attending, but I’m glad to have this understanding as I move forward. Thanks Jonathan and Matthieu!

[@edujyoung]

Totally resonate with what Cord has said here.

[@davidchiranu808]

I agree with you Mr Nielson, I am living in a state of awe atm. Mr Pageau is answering so many questions for me.

[@DeonDSilva]

It's like you wrote my story. I too came to Pageau via Peterson. I too have struggled to find a church that fits since coming to Christ on June 20 2020. So many questions answered with this video.

[@dansysoman3391]

Hi Cord. Have you looked into Eastern Orthodoxy? Much of the teachings and approach to interpreting Scripture comes from a more symbolic understanding, and can be seen in many of the Church Fathers where it seems much of the religion of the West has lost touch with this due to the influence of materialism.

[@dansysoman3391]

@@DeonDSilva I ran into the trouble of finding a church as well. If you know of an Orthodox Church in your area, I'd encourage you to attend and set up time to speak with the priest about the differences between Eastern and Western Christianity.

[@nathansybrandy]

Wow. Incredible. Just incredible.

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (John 3.12)

[@emy_2510]

Arent these the words that Ravi Zacharias said his father-in-law spoke at his deathbed. After these, "I love you Jean"?

[@omglolzbbqsauce]

I myself have drunk thousands of varieties of "H20". No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man - Heraclitus

[@omglolzbbqsauce]

well, water IS the universal solvent! and it's 'most likely' the medium life started in. A good way for a hero to be reborn, i suppose it's related to the baptism in the same sense

[@mcnallyaar]

I am so grateful for these men's work. I have been exploring Orthodoxy, and have been experiencing shifting from a secular, materialist worldview into one where I can read and appreciate the bible. This idea of symbolism has effectively unlocked the door for me.

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

You'd like the traditional latin mass (Roman Catholic)

[@crafters1]

Has your brother published his book yet?

[@ChristianHada]

Its been 2 years. How has your exploration of Orthodoxy been so far?

[@markperron851]

When Jonathan mentioned the aspect of drinking water not being a simple consumption of H2O I immediately thought of Doctor Emotos work on water being able to hold emotions and vibrations. This is also why you should say grace or bless the things you consume as food and drink. One reason is a show of gratitude but the other is to transmute existing frequencies into their highest possible vibe before you fully incorporate it into your being. This also has scientific foundation if that is your thing as all is made of energy and information by that standard and therefore the information alone is not static and the water being consumed in Virginia is not in many ways the same as the water in Calgary. Love these discussions thank you for sharing.

[@brittybee6615]

Hi. If you don’t mind, could you explain what you mean by information in the last sentence?

[@markperron851]

@@brittybee6615 The quick version is that the physical aspect of water is the same everywhere H2O but the information transferred by that water varies in intensity from location to location based on what the specific water has encountered. So you can bless your water and it will change the state of the waters vibration per the experiments of Dr. Emote and also the science of cymatics which shows the varied patterns of various frequencies. This is part of why no two snowflakes are identical - they carry varied vibrations based on what has interacted with that water. Not sure I am doing a great job explaining this but if you have a glass of water anywhere it should help rehydrate you in the physical sense but what other information is being transferred? The process of blessing it essentially becomes an act of realignment and basically cleans the slate and raises the vibe. Hope I made that a bit clearer.

[@brittybee6615]

@@markperron851 Yes, a little bit clearer, thanks. I’ll have to look into Dr. Emote and cymatics. Thanks again.

[@markperron851]

@@brittybee6615 I misspelled his name. Fat fingers don't ya know. Emoto is correct. I believe his first name is Masahiro. Best wishes

[@michaelparsons3007]

Speaking of the transformation of language overtime, y’all are some revolutionary thinkers. This is one of the most important conversations on the internet. Period. When does the book come out? I’m buying for sure.

[@DeonDSilva]

That's what i thought. How come this is at only 60 k views? If I even begin to comprehend what they are talking about I would be able to experience another reality through a very powerful point of view. Even a minor increase in the ability to See Symbolically would be transformational.

[@DeonDSilva]

Three months after I first watched this video and many attempts at the book i finally got the shift in perspective from material to symbolic tonight. It sounded like so much gibberish but i kept listening to this talk again and again.

[@Good2bBetter]

Never talk alone to each other about symbolism again. Please include us! I would love for you guys to delve into the actual symbols like a snake = time etc. Thanks!!

[@CrazycruxGaming]

Oh, you planning on doing an interactive livestream? That would be so awesome! You converted me to Orthodoxy and I would love to ask some questions!

[@Good2bBetter]

Jonathan Pageau Thank you, can't wait. I have also started to become very interested in Orthodox thanks to your videos. Orthodox is probability as close as one can find to something authentic and unadulterated by modern leftist bs.

[@haydensnyder]

Don't tell them what to do.

[@matthieupageau9537]

Robert Lutsch - The snake is a symbol of consciousness, but it symbolizes a certain type of consciousness in opposition to the tree. Both the tree and the snake represent mediators between heaven and earth. So there is something like "tree consciousness" and "snake consciousness". The first - tree consciousness - is essentially reason, logic, truth and consistency. It is the sort of consciousness that regular science uses, where all ramifications of our knowledge must be derived from first principles (the "seed" of the tree). So everything is logically connected in that form of consciousness. On the other hand, "snake consciousness" is called "divination" in ancient cosmology. It is a way of obtaining knowledge in an indirect, obscure, irrational, confused manner. As a form of consciousness, "snake knowledge" is a renewing influence of death and resurrection. That sort of consciousness is subversive to established knowledge (tree knowledge). Humans are ideally supposed to balance these opposite forms of consciousness.

[@eponaalbion]

The snake is symbolic of change, which is what the ancient understanding of 'time' meant, as time is not a 'force' but a human construct so now in our modern understanding 'times' perceived as a ticking clock.

[@peebone000]

These conversations have helped me break out of a naive childlike view of the world and have allowed me to interpret symbolism in the appropriate manner. Thank you.

[@PhilipStCroix]

The discussion about the different lenses which Atheists and what Matthieu calls "materialists who don't know it yet" type of religious folk use was very elucidating. After watching a lot of Harris and Peterson, it clears up where the arguments go astray. Religion isn't for material understanding it's for experiential or phenomenological understanding. I have long thought that the opposition between science and religion was naively tribal and fundamentally missed the point of both religion and science. Great discussion, looking forward to your book Matthieu, and more channel content Jonathan.

[@rbaggio7777]

I Love this video... you guys have a great relationship... Matthieu, please make an audio version of your new book.

[@mikenawrot7787]

In case you are still seeking feedback four years later, the pace of this conversation was perfect for me. Lived in jordan petersons work for like a year and the last month or so in yours jonathan. Thanks for what you are doing. Its really helping me sort some things out.

[@mirceanicula9198]

This is a hidden gem of you tube. I'm very grateful and feel lucky to have discovered Jonathan. My whole life I struggled to make sense of things. I studied philosophy and art and literature but always left I had a huge chunk of the puzzle missing and I finally feel like I arrived in the place that can take me on right path and I feel much more sane. Tank you and God bless you!

[@orthodoxmindandheart]

I loved hearing you mention the horizontal perception of reality. I just finished reading Stratford Caldecott's "Beauty for Truth's Sake" and before that his "Beauty in the Word". In both books he talks about the importance of understanding that there are both horizontal AND vertical dimensions of reality. It reminds me of how Fr. Stephen Freeman has written about how the place where we meet Christ is on the cross; he says often that the way down is the way up. And on the cross is exaclty where the vertical and horizontal intersect. Love the imagery!

[@koala1234ish]

I liked this the first time and thought I got it, but I keep coming back to this video and finding the things you talk about make sense more and more every time.

[@greatmomentsofopera7170]

Just returned to this and it really is the best introduction to symbolism. Incredible content. And free!!

[@Mrdeanop2]

Matthieu describes it so perfectly. It's really helping make it click in place.

[@joolz5747]

How wonderful to have two brothers on the same page and level. You must’ve had a very interesting upbringing with your parents. And it must’ve been so much fun to have a brother that you can discuss these things with. I just think it’s wonderful. thank you for sharing with the world.

[@wisebluehillwarrior6411]

Coming from a protestant background, theee are some things i would struggle to reconcile with a purely symbolic view. I have personally experienced things that I could only describe as supernatural. A woman with a broken leg filled with screws, being healed before me, not only walking about with no pain, but the screws gone. A man with visible cataracts covering his eyes. I prayed for him, and 15 minutes later he came to me, in jubilation with arms raised in praise, proclaiming that he could see clearly. I could visibly see how his eyes were now clear. I can go on. If you experience things like this, it is not so simple and easy to reduce the biblical texts to mere symbology. Did Jesus actually heal the sick, did he rise from the dead? These are massive questions, and while I am certain that you are right that it happened in the symbolic sense, I can not ignore the very real possibility that it is more than that. That is certainly my personal belief.

[@Cenchrea23]

This video for me represents a transition in the way I see the world by Feb, 2020

[@sjcanalita3093]

Wow! Amazing. I’ve always thought that there was something more to the bible - because it is cryptic to me. Been raised Roman Catholic and now at 50 yrs old, finally an explanation that’s easy to digest. I am amazed and want to learn more. The ‘gun’ example, the fish/whale conundrum, and the mowing of the grass and the H2O that we drink - finally drove it home to me. Thank you very much.

[@cterry77777]

What came to my heart as i read your comment...Mark Chater 4 ..10¶And when he (Jesus) was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.” Most will not understand the bible, it's spiritually decearned, meaning: a person must have the Holy Spirit living inside to be able to receive the intended God given, revelation Truth the way God wants it I interpreted. Outside of God's way is man's fallible insight and errored interpretations/biases that go on to deceive the masses that choose to rely on man, opposed to seeking God through His word and being lead by the Holy Spirit who is our helper that leads into ALL Truth.

[@JesseP.Watson]

Very interesting talk, thank you. In a very simple way, I see symbolism as a way to compress information using commonly associated forms. A way to do that before writing, when recording and communicating something took a great deal of effort... therefore we evolved a method of conveying complex meaning through the combination of forms each representing concepts or entire bodies of knowledge. The common association is a very important factor which, due to our changing culture and craft or technology, can render old symbolism completely detached from their original meanings. Fire is a classic example, once it was a part of everyone's daily lives and so a symbol conveying fire was immediately clear to everyone as an essential for survival, comfort, community... and life itself, so the idea of the eternal flame was immediately meaningful - today however, even that basic thing, fire, is an abstract concept to many people and so something like "the eternal flame" has to be explained intellectually.

[@monkwithgrillz1921]

Thanks for the video. Another interesting video could be you reading something from the bible and show us how to use symbolism correctly like you guys discuss here. Im afraid my mind is so hung up in materialistic world view that it could be hard to start reading it correctly.

[@CHRISTISKING209]

Great video! I love how ultra composed and focused your faces look. It speaks to your inner wisdom. Thank you for your thoughts.

[@frsilouanjustiniano1664]

"He who regards the Myth or the Icon as a statement of fact, or he who regards it as a fantasy, are equally mislead. Myth is to history as universal to particular, raison d'etre to l'etre, Icon to species as exemplar to instance. Symbolism and imagery (patrika, patribimba, etc.) the purest form of art, is the proper language of metaphysics." A. K. Coomaraswamy

[@wizziw1961]

Plato's realm of perfect forms, by definition, does not exist in the material world. Materialists read this, and say it doesn't exist in the material world -- and think they proved that Plato's realm does not exist. In other words, they cannot begin to imagine the concept. All their phenomena look like nails, to them.

[@Chill-Pill]

Humility, men. Please come to seekers in humility.

[@nighttrader-daytradingusst6094]

I watched this video 4 months ago around Christmas and didnt fully understand but intuited that they were onto something. 4 months later after watching many of Jonathan's videos I realise that I was a materialist the first time that I watched this video. Am really starting to get it now. I am beginning to see the world through the conscious lens of meaning and purpose. Many thanks Pageau boys!

[@JoshuaSeigler]

"Symbolism is the union of fact and meaning."

[@StephanieMoDavis]

Swoon. ❤

[@masonsmurals]

Just wanted to put this out to this community: We live in Florida. A couple of weeks ago we came home from Mass and there was a large iguana at my front door trying to get into the house....hitting its nose against the window....right behind a statue of Christ i had put there. My husband shot it...it rolled over on its back at the foot of the Jesus statue with its front claws together. Made my day!

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

Matthieu is such and absolute genius! He sees all these complicated matters in a really clear form and is able to pass that knowledge to us in a comprehensible manner it's just amanzing! Thank you for everything you've done

[@LagMasterSam]

Maybe I'm just really dumb, but this was the opposite of comprehensible to me. The longer I listen the more confused I get about what they're trying to say.

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

@@LagMasterSam It may be because I've watched Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning and Biblical series prior to watching this and I'm familiar with this kind of symbolic talk and the concepts. I strongly recommend those courses. Also the best stuff I've found on the internet is John Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisys series, that changed my life completely.

[@daneracamosa]

Thanks guys ...I really did enjoy the video. I think you did a great job as far as you went in your unstructured conversation and I learned a lot. Two things I would suggest. 1) be very careful not to drift off into General statements about symbolism without backing it up with specific examples. I have listened to you guys on a number of occasions drift off into ..."people think it's this way but it's not really that way "... without explaining it using specific examples. I think you did a very good job of circling back and explaining what you meant using examples on this conversation. 2) it would be helpful to pick five specific examples of symbolism in The Bible... perhaps the most important 5 in your opinion ( tree, flood, snake...etc) and cover each one and detail using specific examples from the Bible. For those of us not very well educated in this tradition it would be extremely helpful. Once you done the five most important than you could work in concentric circles outward covering further and further this embolism that you're discussing and getting more and more esoteric. I don't know how your structuring your book but that would seem a logical way to structure it and I'm looking forward to when it comes out so keep us posted and keep up the good work. Respectfully...

[@eugenefdscodes]

Agree with 2)

[@daneracamosa]

Matthieu Pageau... sounds fantastic... I might suggest that you and your brother do multiple Short videos on various aspects of those themes that are found in the Bible looking at them in different ways such as artist rendering, social or monastic orderings and science for instance... these Short videos will maintain attention and focus on the upcoming book and hope to build enthusiasm for the book... Short, concise, revelatory 15 minutes...it would be fun for us and hopefully not too taxing on you guys... thanks again for sharing your passion...

[@CaptCutler]

I'm looking forward to Matthieu's book that was mentioned in JBP's podcast. From listening to you, Jonathan, I'm very interested in Orthodoxy too.

[@hlynned]

This in my opinion is an absolutely crucial conversation for the culture war and dichotomy of thought. Going to share as far and wide as I can. Thank you for articulating and crystalizing these contrasted ways of thinking and harmonizing them. This is the great work. Keep it up! Wow!

[@andrewfavorov4579]

Can't wait for you guys to do it again

[@newkingjames1757]

What an adventure! Loved it. When is part 2!?

[@MadFrenzy582]

I LOOOVVVEE this talk. I can't believe I haven't seen it earlier!!!

[@adiagne3583]

God bless you Jonathan. I feel like I have found gold

[@islyfe]

We need more! Thanks guys!

[@arifreeman]

Excellent. More with Matthieu please.

[@practiceyogaaustin]

LOVED this video! Would be great to see more like it

[@bwbowen01]

awesome stuff. this helped clear up a lot of my thinking! looking forward to more books from Matthieu immensely

[@johnmatthewtennant]

This very valuable to me. Thank you so much for producing this content!

[@rsunghun]

oh my god. this video changed my life a lot. Thank you so much!

[@michaelhoover2109]

This is exactly what I needed for my journey to Christianity thank you. Matthieu I have bought your book on the Symbolism of Genesis, it will be here in two days, I am excited to get into it. Was wondering what other books there are on ancient cosmology and symbolism. Also what Church Fathers are some of your guys' favorites? Want to start reading them as well

[@christopher_ecclestone]

St Gregory of Nyssa's, 'Life of Moses' is a book that Jonathan often recommends. I'm waiting for my copy to arrive in the post.

[@danthefrst]

1st guys: Y'all need to occupy the same space! 2nd guys: Do like a movie or something, like Indyana Jones and give us youre best symbolisms of the film! That would be just, even more awesome!

[@dmitrypetrouk8924]

This video makes some clarity happen. Thanks!

[@charles3964]

Thank you Pageau brothers for showing us the hidden pearls contained in the Word, may it lead all to union with Christ Jesus in Truth and Love.

[@DeonDSilva]

My mind suddenly shifted into understanding I was stuck in a materialistic point of view. I had to watch the video a couple times before I understood. Mind Blown!

[@nurtured-channel2953]

In total surrendering to Christ....I have found myself and the purpose of my Life.💖. Everything points to Christ

[@GiniaMarie1]

I am so grateful to have found your channel! I'm almost giddy with anticipation of learning more! This is, well, you both are brilliant!!!! I've ordered a physical copy of Matthieu's book and it should arrive this coming Friday. I'm sure I will enjoy it and have to read it probably several times. I Have a great deal of interest in studying patterns and symbols of the Bible in a meaningful and practical, grounded and real way. Thank you for sharing your love and understanding of symbolism.

[@DamburaDioa]

Such a great discussion. Thank you both so much for what you are doing!

[@claycon]

Lots of really great points here. It’s so refreshing to hear conversations like this.

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

I took a Literature of the Bible course. The prof used Propp's theory of folk tale cycles, which was quite helpful. Everyone got something out of it, whether or not they were religious.

[@Leonnitram123]

Thanks for the video . I think the idea of the meaning of symbolism being hidden or at least partly hidden to the masses is not new or wrong . But it's not hidden because some dark or secret group of people wants to but because the deeper meaning is not accessible to most people's "intellect" ( I am not referring here to the definition of "intellect" that we have nowadays) . I also think that symbolism works by itself and infuses its meaning according to ones own capabilities , the symbolism of a story is always there and even if a person takes the story literally , there is probably still a part of that deeper meaning that gets to that person. The idea that only a few can understand deeply some messages is not something "new" that happened at the time of the renaissance like you said , quite the opposite I reckon. It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all.

[@dragonfriend6874]

_"It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all."_ Good observation. In the secular sphere it happens all the time. Look at people with phDs in a particular field versus those that didn't finish high school. The phD likely has greater knowledge ie deeper understanding of that particular field than the person who didn't finish high school. Why should it be any different for symbolism/traditional cosmology?

[@14crusader88]

Incredible video, Explained everything with crystal clear clarity, cery impressive

[@mcnallyaar]

I have been seeking this perspective for 20 years.

[@sunbro6998]

Loved the video. I am waiting with baited breath for your brother's book. You guys are helping me make sense of ....... stuff, for lack of a better word.

[@janinemcqueen5441]

Excellent. Thank you so much. I have searched much and this explained so much.

[@knockda887]

Great content! Please continue! Thanks!🐉

[@serrael-182]

My favortie video from you. You and youre brother are a good team!

[@MiracleHouseYT]

Beautiful conversation within the brotherhood!

[@dcoburn88]

Excellent video! I would love to watch follow up videos where the two of you focus discussion on particular symbols or stories to illustrate what you present here

[@nickmay7617]

Thanks!

[@thisdude5825]

What an excellent discussion. This could save a newbie a LOT of reading! Or at least help him/her better understand his/her reading. Thank you both so much!

[@joshuapurinton7752]

It didn't really click for me until Matthieu defined symbolism as the unity of fact and meaning Hal way through the video. Now I feel like I have to rewatch the first half with that in mind to better comprehend what is being said.

[@jodyslaughter2621]

Extremely helpful. Thank you

[@highpriest8571]

PLEASE MORE AND MORE VIDEOS.

[@directinprint]

Loved this video, thank you very much. Thanks so much for doing this in English also.The only issue I had personally was the chuckling at how silly people can be (masons for example) misinterpreting symbols… it’s the chuckling at stupid people that worries me. I am one of those who, while luckily not mentally ill, am fairly concerned that I’m missing most of the truth in the scripture or not doing it right when I offer a decade and mediate upon a mystery. I simply do my best… but I’m generally agog during a homily, hoping the priest will make things clear. The chuckling at the ignorance of others is one reason I dropped Harris and atheists like him - after a decade of reading their books, doing the SH meditation for many years etc. The arrogance that the mean chuckling seems to symbolize always worried me and frightened me about the atheists and eventually led me to disregard them. I think the symbols and parables in the bible, sacraments, and traditions are meant for people like me: simple and needing concrete examples. But the texts are so old, that without linguistic and historical markers, they can be bereft of meaning. Given those, I can access the concepts and emotions the texts and symbols are meant to impart. Anyhow I will get Matthieu’s book, most grateful! And visiting Jonathan’s site to see his art is incredible… I sent a link on Snow White to my son today. He is also an artist and I think that may be an ideal Christmas gift if ready by then. I’m very grateful that you both share yourselves so generously. Many thanks!!!

[@sealevelbear]

LOVED the video ❤️

[@lemonblue6282]

Just found this video - 6 years later. I hope somewhere you guys did some conversations where you don't worry about the viewer but just speak as you normally do. Letting us catch up as we may. If its not happened yet, I'd love it if you take up the garden of Eden story again. Thanks🙂

[@marcosdarri]

This is one of the most interesting videos I've ever seen.

[@arthurholmes-brown7104]

What an awesome tag-team :)

[@Simon_Alexnder]

The concept of Spacetime, if you look at it is actually a return to the symbolic understanding after it was misunderstood in the Neutonian era. The unification of space and time into one creates Spacetime as "the field of change".

[@travistownsend6750]

Amazing! Thank you

[@alangrobler1562]

Yes this why we are struggling to understand the Word of God in the Bible and this is very eye opening thank you for this I needed to hear this so grateful 🙏😀👍🏼

[@sandramckeehan5679]

Good level! Do more!

[@NathanMeffert]

Jonathan and Matthieu. I am finally making it through this video. At first, it seemed a little dense. But some of your other recent videos, and other reading/listening that I've been doing, have been helping to clarify things. A big lightbulb has gone off for me this time. Jonathan: your example about Dante really helped. The idea that there were people living during a transitional time between the materialistic worldview and the past more symbolic or mystical worldview made sense. And the example of Dante's explanation that you gave also helped. Wow. I don't quite have my own words for it yet, but it's something like: these books were written from a totally different perspective. They were using this higher order symbolic language to describe things that we still have trouble talking about. We can still understand and learn from these stories, but it requires us to step into a more ancient perspective on life. It also requires us to look more deeply at the meanings of words. It can't be done through a strictly materialistic point of view, because then you just end up criticizing literalist interpretations. Which are obviously fantastical. If you can get the mix right, a whole world of spiritual meaning opens up. And these are in fact some of the most accurate descriptions of deep psychological and spiritual experience. Question though: what do you think it was about these ancient peoples that enabled them to encapsulate such deep truths in such poignant stories? What made them different from us that allowed them to perceive and describe these things? Because it can come off as kind of fantastical. Almost like they had access to some kind of supernatural knowledge bank that we don't have access to. Which sounds unlikely. Perhaps unless you consider the possibility of ritual use of psychedelics, or some form of lost spiritual practice.

[@NathanMeffert]

Matthieu Pageau Helpful. That is probably another statement that will take a few reads to sink in. I asked Jonathan to thank you, but I'll just say it "in person" here: thanks for your work, Matthieu. I'm looking forward to learning more from you.

[@Ykpaina988]

Phenomenal video very enlightening and helpful for understanding the symbolic through phenomenology and science through technological materialism and observation and how both lenses are fundamentally after the same thing. As Heidegger said understanding is a mode of being in the world and there are many ways of being in the world

[@danielcardin4329]

Interesting idea about ascending into heaven being a separate idea from the physical atmosphere. How do you interpret “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

[@zackkurowski4724]

Loved it, good stuff

[@shawnhampton8503]

I find it fascinating that Dante would have issued that "anti Literalistic" caveat about his own writings.... especially in light of the fact that many believers today have inherited a religious viewpoint that does exactly that - especially regarding their way of thinking about "heaven" and "hell" just to name two. I often ponder the statement of the author Flannery O'Conner in a letter to a friend that is often quoted in discussions about the Eucharist: "If the Eucharist is merely a symbol, then I say to hell with it". I really think she was using the word 'symbol' to mean 'metaphor'. Such a great discussion! Thank you!!

[@andrewdallow5554]

Brothers together....( branches in a tree) . a remarkable dialogue.....I needed to hear every word. thankyou .....Your description of: Heaven and Earth , Man, meaning and symbolism framework....the first coherent description i got .... thankyou Matthieu, thankyou Johnathan..... thankyou... if opportunity arises, I want to hear from you around ;.Soul, Logos,..... i connect with your reference in Genesis. symbolism language.... wanted to say....like you mention ...over time ; meaning changes ( the socializing and meaning and fact is always happening ) forgive me, ...it is marvelous to behold life , however , the mystery with our Soul /logos. has my attention.... is the soul an overlay? or an underlay, what is the hierarchy ? with soulfulness . seems soul deeply supporting reality.....in both ; longer time frame , yet shorter time when embodied ..... seems incomprehensible ..... like you both ,speak of this.....best together.......

[@humbledandgrateful7411]

Oh, you aimed right alright 1:07:05! Nov 2021 is when I get this vid on my feed and, suffice to say, I've subscribed. Glad to learn - mostly for humanity - that "Mat-yeuh" got his book out; will pick it up shortly. Meanwhile, I'm going to check out all your vids Jonathan - at least all the Bible-themed ones. If this vid is anything to go by, I believe all of the others will have the right tone and intent, too. (Well in advance) thank you for creating all this content.

[@bradyeshleman1318]

I’m trying to wrestle with this as a Christian. The Christian faith rests on one fact. The resurrection. “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.” That is to say if the story doesn’t actually confer a factual victory over death, then there is no meaning. It seems to come fact first, then meaning. Many stories in the Bible can be understood to have not factually happened without losing meaning but it seems the resurrection isn’t one of those. I wonder if these men would agree with me.

[@PaulRezaei]

Very useful video! Opened my eyes to many things. I would love to see you go through chapters/books of the Bible and explain the symbolism that you see 🙏.

[@ScholarJones]

I've just recently started watching your video series. I have been a protestant my entire life. Now that I'm in my late 50's, I'm trying out the local Orthodox church. I wish I had learned about the differences years ago.

[@andrewdallow5554]

Matthieu, how you pressed in the final 5 mins, addressing intoxication, an honest enquiry will bring fruit......you caught my attention ( paraphrase ) "intoxication" describes the quintessential momentum the garden. thankyou

[@sunbro6998]

Mowing the grass, great example. I will have to remember that one for future use, with proper crediting of course.

[@spifis]

Oh Les deux frères Pageau! Salutations de Laval QC. Merci pour votre travail inspirant et instructif.

[@Hugex97]

One thing that I really don´t like about the new ways of conceptualizing the world (scientific ways) is that is takes out absolutely everything meaningful from the act of living. Love? It´s just chemicals in your brain. Hate? It´s just a psychological way of dealing with difficult people. It´s not "just" that, it´s a experience that catalizes your being into doing something. That´s the reason why people cannot live happy lives anymore, everything is "just" atoms, hormones, and that of course is depressing, because you are taking out the main reason why people feel those things, the experience in it of itself.

[@guitarman2341]

Super interesting video. I can't believe I have never heard this line of thinking before, because I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm still not 100% clear on the difference between Symbolism and Metaphor. So I would love you hear more from you guys in general, and hopefully the ideas will get more fleshed out.

[@guitarman2341]

Ah gotcha. That makes sense. So I dunno if other people feel the same as I do, but it's very refreshing to hear this view. While I have been watching some JBP, and now you guys, this is still a very new way of viewing these ideas for me. I feel like you guys have a lot of potential to discuss these ideas. Like you said, it may seem obvious to you, as you have been thinking about these things for a long time. But for someone like me, I need to start at square one. Just a few ideas for further videos (in case you were trying to think of some): - going more in depth on the idea of symbolism/metaphor vs. unlimited interpretation. You touched on it here, but I could use more info on that distinction. - a history of the rise of materialism, and now its logical end. the idea that we have reached the rock bottom of materialism is super interesting to me. That's a BIG idea. And no one is talking about it Hope this helps. Want to give you encouragement to keep going! Thanks.

[@georgouspeach]

guitarman2341 id like to see this too.

[@mhillk]

Hi Jonathan and Matthieu , thank you for sharing the conversation, i enjoyed it alot!, her some feedback for adjusting your aim; + having you both have a organic discussion and tackle the problem from different angles, was great, + do not try to be more PC, the unique relationship between both of you and the talking points that resolft out of that is valuable. - next time pleas keep the talking points more specific and use coquette exampels, if possible use picture of symbol to show. - at the same time don't lose the ability to go out on tangens and show the impact and and effect a singel more specific"symbol" can have on different fields in reality. looking forward to your next discussion

[@mattbouley6443]

In language, we find that various languages have words that share a similar idea but the depth of meaning changes from language to language. Some words have great depth of meaning in one language and a very shallow depth of meaning in another. I am certain that the same must be true of symbols. I believe some symbols would not even be comprehensible outside their native cultural context.

[@j.c.3800]

I really appreciate your websites and discussions. As an artist I continually work with the basic quality of the metaphor (i.e.symbol). As you know, there are two parts: the "tenor", which is what one wishes to express, and the "vehicle," which is the object or word or formula that you use to express the tenor. As humans I believe we have the permission to assign meaning to "vehicles" as creative beings. But perhaps there are "vehicles" assigned meaning by our Creator that are meant to remain as universals to administer to our souls. Actually any and all communication, whether word, deed, formula, or mathematical equation uses the character of the "metaphor"...some more basically understood than others.

[@mcnallyaar]

17:50 -- What a Great Point!

[@hippopotamusrex2175]

It is an interesting way to see the effects of how language evolves. More and more precision can and does inhibit meaning. There's something lost when taxonomy increases society's vocabulary and one main idea is dispersed into more and more words. The precision itself is valuable, but this is dead on that something is lost trying to fish out the perfect 'modern' word to do a 1:1 comparison for an ancient story without realizing the thousands of years of mitosis involved with the original symbols.

[@klausehrhardt4481]

Read diferent literature from diferent times and diferent countries, and if you can afford, learn other languages. Overtime, you´ll be able to detect the subtle whealt and nuances of meaning in words. E.g.: english "matter" derives directly from latin "mater" wich means mother. Scientific literature tends always to normalize and specify meaning by definition as a standart, but even then, the shift shall happens as paradigms change, letting litle trace behind of the original meaning. Literature, on the other way, tends generally to preserve and enrich the meaning of words. Or it was so until the XX century...