Jordan Peterson wrestles with God and Catholic Unscripted

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Gavin, Katherine and Mark discuss a recent visit to meet Jordan Peterson in Oklahoma.
Konstantin Kissin introduces Peterson who talks good and evil, truth and lies.
#culture #church #jordanpeterson

[@Hope20249]

If Gavin was doing the lecture, I would love to be there😊 safe travels

[@wiseonwords]

Me too. Gavin is a wonderful thinker and speaker.

[@K-bq3lv]

All three are wonderful speakers and each brings their unique experiences and views to the discussions. Together they have a certain chemistry.

[@catholicunscripted]

@@K-bq3lvthank you for the kind comments 🙏

[@Nell0111]

i loved this ! Thank you so much ! I loved hearing you talk to one another and share and contrast your reflections and your ideas … Felt so fortunate to be able to listen .. thank you

[@catholicunscripted]

Thanks for such encouraging comments 🙏

[@MFTU268]

Excellent feed back chaps…So natural, and also entertaining as well as your usual erudite deliveries. Thank you.❤

[@frankie.m.pepper6974]

God bless you, from Australia 🇦🇺

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

Mr. Peterson is a brave man and a very good speaker and reasonably good political commenter (there are some issues here though). I used to listen to Mr. Peterson more some time ago. I stopped listen to him more when I listened to him speak about the Scriptures and God. It was similar to listening to Dennis Prager's in that it is very personal. It seems to me he interprets the Word of God more through Carl Jung than anything close to the Apostolic deposit of the faith. I occasionally listen to his political discussions now. I pray for him and his family. It was a blessing hearing about his wife may she lead him into the faith. He seems a proud strong willed fellow and I pray that isn't a hinderance to him. I do hope he leads people to Jesus but don't think he can atm but can merely point towards God existing (not as the Christian reality). There is a danger of leading people away as well into something not Christian, potentially even Christians.

[@borderlands6606]

Yes, he doesn't so much wrestle with God as spar, an enterprise where there's no commitment to hit home. An interesting exercise intellectually, but with the tough questions perpetually at arm's length.

[@afterlate8866]

@@borderlands6606 Perhaps, just perhaps, if he hit home (too early) he’d lose his crowd following? Is it about ‘timing’ as they say? Perhaps, intellectual pride is stopping him from throwing a punch home? As long as he remains genuine and willing to find the Truth. Don’t know - just thinking aloud and hoping for him (and all).

[@borderlands6606]

@@afterlate8866 You make a fair point, and it depends what JPs long game is. I'm old and ugly enough to suggest there are two propositions regarding the claims of Christianity. Either Jesus was the fulfilment of the prophets, or an absolute rogue. Unfortunately, society is overwhelmingly of a different opinion, that Jesus was a Nice Guy. Spare us nice, Lord.

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

@@borderlands6606 I see Him as nice and yet not like the rest of us. So, many people who portray themselves as nice often aren't. I will admit I am not always nice, not sure anyone really is in reality, I have never met one. There are many passages that people treat like Thomas Jefferson in His Bible. Whether they be the miracles/demons/supernatural as Thomas Jefferson did OR the NOT nice passages as we see many people do: Luke 17, the Book of Revelations (Article 7 of the CCC), Matt 7, Part of John 3 (3:18-20 is often ignored only 3:16 preferred), 2 Thess 2, 2 Peter 3, etc.

[@borderlands6606]

@@jesuslovesaves2682 Modern society can only accept Jesus in the hinterlands of nice (a word whose meaning has changed 180 degrees over time, incidentally). The Son of God it finds preposterous on all levels, but neither can it accept him as a rabble rouser leading His followers to premature and unpleasant deaths on the back of His claims. Instead, Jesus's reputation is offered a safe space, neither deity nor demon, but a good egg like ourselves doing his best in a rum world. A world Pilate would have felt comfortable in.

[@jimmycarrollgodblesspoland5521]

God gives us people like Jordan Peterson and Bishop Mar Mari to help us keep our heads above water, we must never stop praying for Gods grace 🕊🇮🇪✝️🙏☘️

[@briandelaney9710]

Bishop Mari is a right wing culture warrior and pretty much of a loudmouth He doesn’t strike me as Christlike

[@richardlobert2585]

Thanks for recording in a space where there was no audio problems.

[@murphyorama]

I agree with your sense of frustration listening to Jordan Peterson. I find that he often lacks clarity and over emotionalises issues that we face. I put it down to him being hyper-conscious of the very aggressive politically driven opposition who are trying to take him down. If he comes out as a Christian he will be attacked in the same way that we all are (as primitive, credulous and ignorant) and undermined academically. If he hedges about his belief he can maintain a more academic standpoint and raise these ideas as philosophical and psychological issues. I wonder if he is fighting to regain academic legitimacy as much as to convert doubters.

[@gwith2ts]

I suspect that there is a great benefit to JBP’s stance as still wrestling with God. It appeals to so many of us in the culture who have come from the materialist mindset. If he were to ‘preach’ from a place of conviction, we might turn away. He reflects the struggle of so many of us who live in this ‘post Christian’ world.

[@tco13v]

Poor DrJP, still a prisoner in the fortress of his own mind!

[@fultoneth9869]

You trio are amazing force , conservative anchor ⚓️ it is possible Europe will get back to their Christian origin. ✝️

[@user-ll9wh4jt2k]

Interesting insights. The devil spirit of resentment finds its home in the law courts and politics.

[@stuartmenziesfarrant]

Thank you guys, very entertaining and informative! God bless you all!

[@sandramckeehan5679]

Thank you so much for being real about Jordan Peterson. I respect him too, and appreciate what he has done, BUT his ego is keeping him on the border of things, and frustrating me.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Welcome to CHICAGO! I do hope you get yourself some good Chicago thin crust pizza while you're here! Or, if you're really hungry, Chicago style PAN pizza is absolutely amazing. I saw Jordan Peterson twice recently, once in Iowa, and again in Michigan. He sounded very much like an Old Testament prophet. The Michigan crowd especially loved his lecture. God bless you all.

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

I prefer listening to guys discuss and exegete Scriptures and the Catholic faith (and reality) over Mr. Peterson by a large margin. The same with news and politics of the day because it's from a position of true faith. I am unsure if prayer of a person with authentic expressed Catholic faith of a pure, simple, righteous person in private would be preferred over a famous intellectual. I imagine in the Body of Christ there is room for more than I can image all to bring glory to God. But Mr. Peterson has to become part of the Body like his wife for this to be. At the moment he seems like a John 3 Nicodemus, not quite there yet. JMJ pray for him and us.

[@gerridalton1345]

Dr Gavin .So nice to see you relaxing...Has Mark got over jet lag, as he was very quiet last video .😊 Catherine have you got some decent tea bags yet?.I hope so.!They do have Tetleys in some grocery stores. We have most English tea bags and loose tea here on Vancouver this way .Just in case you ever get this way in the future.Always welcome.☘️ Great to see that you seem to be having a good time Blessings as always Gerri ☘️🙏☕

[@gerridalton1345]

Vancouver Island.

[@katherinehales1074]

How lovely to be able to meet in person.

[@stuartmenziesfarrant]

If Jordan was a Christian he would be compelled to speak out as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. He is still driving.

[@HaleBopp]

Whether militant atheist, agnostic or devout Christian, isn't the "wrestling" all a part of the journey? Pastor Douglas Wilson has a few interesting pov here. Incidentally Tucker Carlson interviewed Doug the other day. Well worth a watch 👍

[@thomasjorge4734]

While wrestling with himself and God, Peterson has brought more to the Lord than most of our own Catholic Bishops!

[@christopherquinn5899]

That’s utter nonsense!

[@patriciarocco2610]

People are hungry for the ideas with which Dr. Peterson is presenting and struggling. We are so desperate for ideas that ask us to question our assumptions. This is true about the insidiousness of evil. It can manifest itself so easily in a human being and human societies.

[@AlgyPug]

Jordan Peterson is standing at the arrivals desk at an international airport. Immigration official asks: "What is your name, sir?" JP: "What do you mean by 'name'?"

[@outoforbit00]

I think Peterson would benefit going into retreat with his wife and family for at least a month or more. He is strong willed and as such is perhaps unwilling to give over to his wife. Added to that he probably is rigid in his ideas around the right order of things and cannot let go of the masculine feminine dichotomy, forgetting that these two things are not relevant when it comes to who gets to the Kingdom of God first. Basically what I'm saying is that he would do well to truly listen to his wife.

[@christinereich6050]

very interesting take. I agree.

[@borderlands6606]

One of the things Jordan Peterson does well, is to navigate the language of symbols. For many Catholics this verges on the heretical, but it depends whether you see symbols as arbitrary cultural abstractions, of little connection to the thing they point to, or the fundamental building blocks of reality. I would argue that the bible is full of the symbolic from Genesis onwards, but the word symbol has accrued meanings which devalue it.

[@marykotalik7161]

Yeah, that's more like the inner city......sirens🚨🚔🚨🚑🚨

[@camvanzanten2058]

Love you guys, you work so well together!

[@missycolleen]

I thank you for this review of JPs talk. I am concerned by his inordinate wordiness and how his voice so often goes to the angry pitch. Oh well I did enjoy all of your viewpoints as you wrestled with JP.

[@Kyle-tz6zw]

So happy for you Gavin, your hard work is paying off.

[@peachnehi7340]

Brilliant

[@Hagood2011]

Lex Orandi Lex Credendi Lex Vivendi

[@Gate-of-Dawn]

The worst thing we could do is push Peterson and those who follow him too quickly too soon. Like Jacob, let him westle. It needs to be done. When he eventually converts, he will become a glorious apologist for the faith.

[@orarerosarium]

This was awesome.

[@EpoRose1]

I still think JP’s issue with not being able to accept Christianity and Catholicism specifically is his practice of kundalini yoga. It’s interesting that he started mentioning possession, because exorcists will name that particular kind of yoga as a risk for oppression/possession.

[@newtexan1]

What! Holy smokes! I had no idea Peterson did yoga! That explains why he won’t become Catholic! Yoga opens you up ti demonic possession and influence. I’m shocked that I didn’t know. Carl Jung was a big atheist. No wonder Peterson speaks like him. This is so disappointing. Thanks for that info.

[@tomthx5804]

Maybe that is why he had very serious, perhaps demonic medical problems a couple of years ago.

[@Gate-of-Dawn]

If that's true it will seriously hold him back.

[@angelamalek]

I tell you, when Peterson submits to God, watch out!

[@peacetutor2012]

Padre Pio on steroids. 😇😇😇

[@user-ct9xr2bk3s]

A person needs to want to engage in God's endless Grace; so if you can stimulate the mind in that direction you have done then a service. Can you imagine your first day at school introducing you to applied calculus! I think not; better to start with adding and subtracting and then progress. Faith is not an intellectual pursuit, but the more you know and understand the easier it will be to trust in God and let Him open your mind.

[@edh.9584]

I remember Hillsong in Australia, a pastor got up in jeans and spoke about Christian experience and psychological experiences and packed a stadium with 40,000 people. So there must be something in which language is used.

[@dcopela]

Hope you're having a great time across the pond. I’m puzzled to be honest by the fanboy crush on Jordan Peterson who seems to have evolved into Catholicism’s Number One ‘Would like to convert’ from his original USP as the unwilling icon of awkward young men embittered by not getting copious casual sex. Did I miss something there? Grateful if the CU team could address this once you're back to rather less stage struck Blighty as there is something going on within the ranks of some previously very sceptical or even atheist cultural commentators that is intriguing. Wonderful as the story of Tammy Petersen’s conversion is, it’s clear that Catholic media seem rather obsessed with her husband and that would make for an interesting discussion. Would this be an asset for the faith or is there a danger that this fixation could be used to misrepresent Catholicism as merely another luxury belief (with retreats costed to match) for the rich, famous or influential?

[@afterlate8866]

Not so much prevarication (with its implication of telling lies) as wordiness to the point where you haven’t got a clue what he’s on about at times.

[@ronfisher4965]

Is that a single malt Mark? And Gavin?

[@newtexan1]

William F. Buckley said once “to be a true intellectual, you must be Catholic”.

[@christinereich6050]

very cool and true statement.

[@Mutasis_Mutandis]

Love WFB 💕

[@edh.9584]

Wow, diabolic resentment, very accurate!

[@Elizabeth-mp6tr]

Hi there: I'm connecting with you guys again. Interesting discussion. My opinion is: If Jordan Peterson is so intelligent, then why is he struggling with God for sooo long, without believing yet? He is mixing the "World" with God. My issue is what are his long-term motivations? I deeply think he's not done yet, and he has a sinister motivation. In my opinion, he is NOT doing goodness, BECAUSE his conclusions are not goodness in God. Your wishes of "why he didnt say, what he didn't say," is EXACTLY MY OPINION. His motivations are not ok. I think, he's a charlatan in the making. You see, he can't even say that Jesus raised from the dead!.....the Bible definition......of a charlatan.

[@elizabethhfyh]

🎯 agree that Gavin (or for that matter Catholic Unscripted) could do better than J.Peterson

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

Jordan Peterson needs to see and understand God's intelligent design in Catholic spirituality. He will not convert to Catholicism until he understands the three stages of the spiritual life and union with God. As Fr. Aidan Nichols says... `the three stages are how the Catholic Church owns Divine Revelation". The missing link in Jordan Peterson"s understanding is a high level understanding of how a Catholic should follow the life of Christ (only ever) by following the three stages. In this way he will finally understand the meaning of the suffering of the Cross, which for a Catholic should be during the first dark night (which is called the Dark Night of the Senses). Without the fullest theological understanding of the Cross and redemptive suffering (which is connected to purification), he simply will not get it. Without understanding how Moses fiery serpent connects to the life of an ordinary Christian, he will struggle. He needs to see evidence of intelligent design in the life of a Christian, then he will be convinced and convert to Catholicism. This is the reality of the situation.

[@Meg52ful]

My husband and I always want to hear what you all are grappling with but the talking over each other makes it very difficult!

[@Mutasis_Mutandis]

Agree. It’s extremely distracting. I’m about to give up after 4 1/2 minutes.

[@sandramckeehan5679]

Hurray Dr Ashenden! He doesn't have the planks in him! That is what is so frustrating!

[@BarbaraSippy-nc8bz]

👍💖🙏

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

I have recently discussed the OT conquest of the Holy Lands with other Catholics. On the topic of people doing evil in the name of God/religion, many point towards passages in the OT (Noah, conquest of Canaan, Sodom, ect) to say Christianity - Judaism are no different of using religion and the name of God to justify evil. Many point to Christ's love pointing to a non-literal interpretation that doesn't take it that God actually said or did these various things. I don't know how that can make much sense with much of the NT. A few examples would be Luke 17, 2 Peter 3, 2 Thess, Revelation as well as various sections of the CCC like Article 7.

[@TP-om8of]

This is all mildly interesting but what we really want to know is: did Jordan pronounce the T in “often”? Because if he did then everything he said is without merit.

[@jackiejohnston4633]

I was an early fan of JP since before his cancellations and illness. But his “get the damn vaccine” and strange clothes put me off and I think he is a bit potty now.

[@newtexan1]

Good points. I agree

[@ashleysavillewatson1748]

Your unmarried priesthood provides "willing hosts"

[@holymarymotherofgodprayfor7388]

Jesus wasn't married and the apostles left everything behind to follow him. Read your Bible!

[@simonewilliams7224]

Can the current liturgies of the sacraments and the Mass lead us to sufficient sacramental and sacrificial graces from God or does it cut us off from receiving them all together???

[@tomthx5804]

Peterson is doing something that is almost impossible to do. He is looking at the question of God from MANY standpoints simultaneously: From the psychological, the philosophical, using the modern scientific, rational, fact based method, the literary criticism discipline, and so on. Perhaps even the theological, but he downplays the theological at this point. He is trying to show that the "modern" "scientific" opposition to God is not well founded, and perhaps requires a perversion of the scientific method to come to a position of disbelief. Because he wants to defeat unbelief from a rational scientific, evidence based position, he refuses to argue the theological way Gavin wants him to do. He knows secular people reject this way of arguing, so he sticks with their method of proving ideas. He has stated that he thinks his conclusion will result in the end of the Enlightenment, and that we are entering a new era. That is a big conclusion, and perhaps a bit overdrawn. To become an expert in all these areas is near impossible, but he is attempting it. I listen to all his podcasts. It seems to me his weak point is his adoption of Jonathan Pageau's literary criticism method, where everything is a "symbol" of this or that. But deciding that Abraham sacrificing Isaac 1) actually is a "symbol" of something else, and 2) that whatever Pageau or Peterson think it is a symbol of is CORRECT, is a big stretch. Peterson seems to rely on this "dream interpretation" of stories in the bible a bit too much. God bless him for trying though, and I wish him success.

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

Yet God choose a simple carpenter and his young wife for His family. Has he ever reflected on this? It certainly wasn't what the most intellectually gifted (or powerful) in His day expected or appear to have preferred. Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee. Interesting who chose to just believe and follow as sheep ye goats (G.O.A.T.) tended not too.

[@florindragosminculescu]

Wait a minute, good people.. What Peterson is doing is addressing a mass of people who are hardly at all familiar with christian terminology and i dare say many christians don't really understand the meaning (the spirit within) of the words either. The holy man Maxim the Confessor speaks very clearly of this distinction showing that there are several kinds of knowledge. Saint Gregory of Nyssa in the "Life of Moses" also explains the distinction between the levels of understanding, so the analysis cannot start on such a subjective note on a platform that wants to be christian - all christians are invited to sacrifice their firstborn : the ego.

[@watermain48]

You all are so intelligent that I have trouble understanding what you're saying.

[@BCSTS]

I think Jordan Peterson is internally conflicted re Psychology, INTELLECTUALISM, Academia....vs Spirituality ! Until/if he can let go of his lifetime investment in thinking & living from the psychology world view (which we were inundated with at university...for me...late '60's -70's)....he will not be able to fully shift to living Christianity/Catholicism ...... not sure he really wants to ! He is however a 'tortured soul' still searching, driven...so many can idenrify with him ! Maybe someone like a Bishop Barron....can assist him in dropping some willfullness, some ego, enough to trust God, & not try to do it on his own with his own intelligence ! He probably can still help jolt some people out of their comfort zone....help them start WAKING UP !

[@christopherquinn5899]

There are some very pertinent criticisms of Jordan Peterson here, but I still cannot understand why he is still so admired by you. He may be gifted with a formidable mind but I would say that he does not appear to be able to use it. What comes across to me is a lack of mental discipline. Trying to listen to him, or read his popular book, is a trial. Peter Hitchens described his 12 Rules for Life book as being something in which his thoughts slide about on the page like mental porridge, and I have to agree. (It’s one of the very few books that I have thrown away.). I used to really enjoy listening to him but he has become less intelligible and less clear over the years. Ill health and various stresses have probably taken their toll, and there would be little wonder in that given the public hostility that has been shown him. I don’t know what he brings to the public forum.

[@tomthx5804]

The Hitchens brothers were well versed in the art of the insult.

[@christopherquinn5899]

@@tomthx5804 Very true.

[@Mutasis_Mutandis]

I’ve never understood the attraction to JP. He’s pompous and likes to hear himself talk.

[@Gate-of-Dawn]

What's fascinating and refreshing about Peterson is not his philosophy, but watching someone like him wrestle with the world and what's going on, while he slowly comes to the truth, and articulating that struggle so honestly.

[@christopherquinn5899]

@@Gate-of-Dawn I don’t think he’s coming to the truth. I think he’s using every trick to avoid it.

[@edh.9584]

Maybe by not using the theological language he is a bridge between many people and the Church.

[@lauraanderson7358]

"dare we hope "...?

[@alan-muscat]

So glad to see this wasn't a JP-CU love-fest.

[@simonewilliams7224]

Evil in the name of God is not OF God! it’s the people who within the Church or come to the church that hide within the church till they cannot put on their fake sacrificial face to their misconduct or sin. We must pray for them they are judged by a much greater higher or different standard than those of us Laity. We are to pray with humility and love for them to beg for mercy and grace for their souls.

[@josephmaxwell5033]

Careful guys, you are taking too long to quaff the amber nectar.

[@severian1968]

a) Metaphysics is a specific term - it's not just a fancy word for a perspective! b) Lex Orandi: Lex Credendi: Lex Vivendi is the correct order - the basis of reality is knowledge informs the Intellect; if you want to mess with this & impose Idealism's illegitimate children of phenomenology & existentialism? Get back to study & learn the basics in dogmatic theology. c) PLEASE - If you don't comprehend the three stages of the spiritual life? For God's & all our sakes please go & learn about them; rather than using them as a 'cognoscenti' sound-bite! Try Garrigou Lagrange's book! d) Jordan Peterson's psychology lectures on KZbin reveal much more than his tour lectures.

[@jesuslovesaves2682]

I wonder why God choose a carpenter and his young wife for his family. It is rather interesting how Jesus was viewed by different group and which groups he typically lived amongst.

[@jhurt3824]

Maybe one of these days Peterson could make a decision rather than this back and forth pseudo intellectual game he likes to play. His bravado leads people to believe he's no nonsense. But bravado ain't real. At the very least I wish people would just decide what they believe on their own rather than caring what Peterson or any other KZbin famous person thinks

[@christopherquinn5899]

You might have a point there.

[@pavman42]

Some day he'll be regarded as the Chesterton or Lewis of our age.

[@newtexan1]

He’d need to become Catholic first.

[@afterlate8866]

Nope, I don’t think so….not until he espouses complete clarity and that includes precise English.

[@tomthx5804]

Prevarication by Peterson? Yes, of course. He still wants you to buy the book. If he explains his conclusions in the lecture, there is no need for anyone to buy the book. So he has decided to dance around all the big issues, lay out the conondrums, the opposing arguments, and set you up to buy the book to resolve all this.

[@sandramckeehan5679]

I think you could do it and better than Peterson! He frustrates me with his inability to go past the psychological in regard just about anything.

[@bayreuth79]

This obsession with Jordan Peterson is ridiculous. He talks a great deal about Jungianism and a psychological interpretation of biblical texts but there is nothing remotely Christian about him. He supports power and violence and always has done. Peterson should not be held up for admiration. The irony is that you completely miss truly great Christian intellects like David B Hart

[@Gate-of-Dawn]

What's fascinating and refreshing about Peterson is not his philosophy or ideas, but in watching someone like him wrestle with the world and what's going on, while he slowly comes to the truth, and articulating that struggle so honestly.

[@williamdurst8223]

Peterson is a "prophet outside of Israel"....for now.

[@lauraanderson7358]

is Catholicism "priveleged" ????

[@edh.9584]

Jordan Peterson probably doesn't have the theological vocabulary, etc.

[@pegitwillcomebacktoyou]

"Just get the damn vaccine" (JP). Now unsubscribing from this channel.

[@christinereich6050]

When did he say that? I am curious. That is discouraging.

[@robertjarman4261]

Bishop Mari will be the new fashionable theologian.