Joseph Haydn / Symphony No. 44 in E minor "Funeral" (Koopman)

[@Liebes2732]

Papa Haydn has got to be one of the happiest and lovliest guy around, at least his music tells me so. Seriously this isn't the funeral I was expecting !

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

A silly nickname, followed by a simplistic caricature, finished off with an urban myth; no wonder Haydn is probably the most misunderstood of all the great composers.

[@angelomalcontenti1614]

Magnifica! Piena di malinconia e passione!

[@OriginalLHB]

Every addict looks around and tries to figure out what got them hooked. In my case there is no doubt: It was Haydn No 44 which hooked me up to a lifetime of joy. I prefer big band Haydn in his later works but this is a great performance.

[@Olegstuff21986]

You mean got you into classical, or into Haydn in particular? :)

[@scottalbers2518]

I have the same kind of thought.

[@jasonmikolajewski2653]

This is also the first Haydn I could not stop listening to again and again.

[@joaojosevieira8890]

Esta sinfonia é simplesmente fantástica.

[@rafalwisniewski8590]

in my opinion this symphony is one of the best

[@Olegstuff21986]

I second that :D. What amazing compositional skills on display here.

[@rafalwisniewski8590]

I love this symphony but in my opinion his music is repetitive

[@Olegstuff21986]

I have to disagree on that one.

[@ricardoandrade5279]

Rafal Wisniewski

[@rafalwisniewski8590]

strongly disagree yes he was a master of string quartets surpassed by mozart and definitely by beethoven in this regards in his later works Symphonies well in his days symphony was a novum so i give him that but only because he was first not but his skills in this form Mozart and Beethoven were much better and to this day most people can sing or name their symphonies which i cannot say about Haydn Concertos who remember Haydn concertos maybe trumpet and one piano concerto Operas ? who remember that which in Mozart case you can name them at ease Haydn was one of the finest but in my opinion and many others he was great because he was first not because he was so great at it Even Beethoven his pupil was not impres by his teachers music

[@snowcarriagechengcheng-hun3454]

Thanks for uploading!

[@rubenmsk]

great performance truly baroque style

[@nunooliveira2606]

pity it's not baroque :P

[@walterbushell7029]

@@nunooliveira2606 So don't fix it?!

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

rubenmsk Haydn 44 is a quintessential *Classical* symphony written c.1770/71; to be more precise, it is a sturm und drang work, a style that is part of the Classical period. It was written at the height of Haydn’s ‘sturm und drang’ phase which lasted c.1765 -1773. Sturm und drang was entirely a phenomenon of the Classical period. ‘Classical’ (c.1750 - 1800), is not the same thing as ‘Baroque’ (c.1600 - 1750).

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@walterbushell7029 A meaningless pun outside America!

[@humphreyaugustus2932]

The 1700s was about shredding violin, expanding your empire, posing for portraits and sailing the seven seas!

[@Pawel_Malecki]

And dying from smallpox #vaccineswork

[@johninman7545]

Seldom played thanks!Posting on Papas birthday!

[@pierrelouis8877]

L'adagio à 11:07 est paraît-il ce que Haydn souhaitait que l'on joue à sa mort.

[@AML2000]

The Sturm und Drang symphonies may have been first PUBLICALLY performed in Paris, but they were all first performed earlier for his employer Prince Esterhazy.

[@Tenorcleff101]

"Haydn's symphonies until the mid-1780s were generally first published in France" is not the same as 'first publicly performed' and a lot of music of the period was publicly performed without ever being published...

[@AML2000]

I've a funny feeling that the description has been edited! -- I may delete this comment to preclude further confusion!

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Tenorcleff101 This is partly accurate but it is a complicated picture, though Paris - and Lyon - were important centres of publishing in France. Haydn’s works were available in printed editions as early as the 1760’s when publishers in England, Germany and Holland for example as well as in France, were issuing almost anything they could get hold of - symphonies, quartets, trios et cetera. Some of these works published were clearly spurious, that is, publishers simply acquired works by some composer or other, then to boost sales, unscrupulously put Haydn’s name at the top; other works were simply pirated or stolen from other publishers. Haydn’s first authorised publication - six piano sonatas - was issued by Kurzbock of Vienna in 1774. As a specific example of unscrupulous activity: Symphony 35 was the first to be published in England in 1773, probably pirated from Venier in Paris who had published it two years earlier. After 1779 when Haydn’s new contract allowed him to sell works directly to publishers, a large number of works were published by Artaria in Vienna - about 160 in total - however, they were passed to agents in London, Paris, Bonn and elsewhere with no benefit to the composer. Consequently, Haydn shrewdly got ahead of the game and sold multiple ‘exclusive’ rights to publishers, and private patrons, all over Europe, including in London, Speyer, Darmstadt, Paris, Leipzig, and elsewhere. Beethoven when criticised for doing this exact same thing, justified himself by saying that it was what Haydn had always done! Haydn’s links with England were particularly extensive even in the 1780’s ie even before he got there in 1791; after his two visits, he was or had been dealing with the following British publishers: Bland, Forster, Longman & Broderip, Napier Thomson, Whyte. This is an incredible total of six in just one country. Besides any authentic publications, pirated versions of whatever could be pirated almost immediately followed in London, Lyons, Amsterdam, Berlin and Paris. Haydn also authorised works to be published by Torricella in Vienna, and later, Breitkopf & Hartel in Leipzig, Andre of Offenbach-on-the-Main, and a number of others in various countries. Haydn was extremely annoyed to find Traeg in Vienna publishing some of his works without authorisation in the late 1790’s. In short; it was a complicated pan-European story of authorised publications, pirated versions, spurious attributions, messy arrangements and was not helped by some slightly unscrupulous activity - though probably pre-copywrite entirely justified - on Haydn’s part himself, games which as mentioned above, Beethoven himself felt that he was also perfectly justified to play.

[@landonmiller6943]

Haydn in a "Mozart" mood...

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Landon Miller An interesting perception; for me, this sturm und drang music is quintessential Haydn and about as far away from Mozart as it is possible to be - not a single note sounds or feels like Mozart, indeed musically, sturm und drang Haydn is on a different planet from Mozart (bar possibly Symphony 25, some of the Thamos music, and one or two other small pieces).

[@landonmiller6943]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Then you're not listening to the "Mozart" I listen to. Mozart's compositions often have dark undercurrents with storm clouds on the horizon, e.g. the two minor key piano concertos (20 and 24), String Quartet No 19 in C major, K. 465 (Dissonance), Don Giovanni etc. As others have noted you can make a strong argument for Mozart as a proto-romantic.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Landon Miller I agree with every word that you have written - bar the first sentence. It is instantly apparent however, that Mozart’s minor mode music has almost none of the essential features of sturm und drang found in Haydn, and others such as Dittersdorf, Vanhal (almost any of his minor key works from these years), and JC Bach (Opus 6 No 6). Mozart’s minor key music is not sturm und drang, a style that did not suit Mozart, it is entirely the product of Mozart’s unique and complex musical genius. I think you may have misdiagnosed the Mozart sound. It is almost impossible to find anything written by any late 18th century composer that sounds remotely like Mozart in the minor and the works you have correctly listed. You are right; there are undercurrents, storm clouds, and much more - but they are Mozart, not sturm und drang, this was my original point. Haydn wrote about 20 symphonies between 1765 - 1773 during his sturm und drang phase; barely a note of this music sounds like Mozart, nor does anything written by Mozart during these years sound anything like Haydn - apart from as mentioned, Symphony 25 which is modelled on Haydn 39. The Mozart works you have listed all post-date by some time the - mostly - Austrian sturm und drang period which occurred between c.1765 - 1775; Mozart’s single shot at writing music in this style was the g minor Symphony 25 (K183) written in 1773. I am listening to Mozart, perhaps a little more carefully than you suggest, perhaps a little more carefully and attentively than yourself; it is clear from the detail of my comments that I know what I am talking about.

[@landonmiller6943]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Sturm und Drang was primarily a literary movement, not a musical one, and it's futile to attempt to map the former's characteristics, historically or stylistically, directly onto a musical style, music being an abstract form of expression. The Mozart works I cited to my ears, and others' ears too, share aspects of the works from Haydn's "Sturm und Drang" period, an attribution that was assigned purely because those works appear to share or reflect some aspects of that literary aesthetic.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Landon Miller You’re right to point out the differences between the literary and musical sturm und drang, but not to resort to pedantry and semantics to justify your opinion. I clearly understand the difference between the real and actual literary sturm und drang, and the fact that the name was appropriated as a descriptor in the early 20th century for a musical phenomenon that slightly pre-dated the literary one. If you are interested, I have written an extensive reply to someone who asked about this very point which you can find on the outstanding Haydn 2032 Antonioni project postings on KZbin; if you look under Symphony 26 and Gabriel Fromhyr’s ‘not unlike Mozart’s 25th’, it is the last two of the - currently - 6 replies. I am not clever enough to re-post it here. I do fully understand that sturm und drang was originally a literary expression and that the musical ‘sturm und drang’ slightly pre-dated the literary one, but the use of the term, first adopted the early 20th century to describe some particular features of some music written between c.1765 -1775 remains both valid and useful, and perhaps more importantly, is widely understood. The fact that the term has been appropriated from a literary movement is not important; many common terms are shared across all the arts - you can have both Gothic architecture and novels, Baroque music, art and architecture et cetera. I hope I am not attempting anything futile, the only one of your points I am struggling with relates to Mozart and sturm und drang. Apart from K183 - and a tiny number of other mostly minor works - Mozart wrote nothing in this particular style. Musical sturm und drang, using the neat 20th century appellation as explained above, consists of the following: - greater use of contrapuntal forms and techniques, - changes in the use of the orchestra - for example more frenzied string figurations with a walking bass line, - widely contrasting dynamics, - driving rhythmic intensity, - strongly marked accentuation, - syncopation, - wide, sometimes jagged leaps within thematic material, - use of bold, unison, forte opening gestures an themes, - longer melodic and harmonic lines, - greater use of dissonance and modulation, - unusual keys, - greater use of minor keys, - expansion of form, - more varied form, including use of sonata da chiesa, - greater use of motifs and fragments which are more intensively developed, - greater tension created in various ways including the use of pauses and silence, or building intense pressure such as appears in the finale of Haydn 44 where the seven note motif is ratcheted up and up and up to perhaps the greatest level of tension in any eighteenth century work by any composer, - lots of other things. I find these features to a greater or lesser degree in for example, about 20 Haydn symphonies, the quartets Opp. 9, 17 and 20, the c minor sonata (Hob. XVI: 20) and some other works. These features can be found also in some contemporary works by Vanhal, Dittersdorf and others too. However, these particular sturm und drang characteristics are largely absent from the later minor key music of Mozart, they disrupt the balanced elegant perfection of his music. Mozart’s minor key music is entirely new, unique to himself and something completely different; that said, there are aspects of sturm und drang that were inherent to Mozart’s style - inherent, but not influences from. Almost all Mozart’s greatest minor key music post-dates the musical sturm und drang by at least a decade.

[@fernandofernandezgar]

Papá Haydn

[@OriginalLHB]

In one of the original Peanut's comics Snoopy is dancing on Schroeder's piano with a look of pure joy. The only caption is "Papa Haydn."

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Recte: Joseph Haydn.

[@m.zn_11]

0:48

[@thelaibon]

This is moreso Classical style

[@TubaWorld]

6:28

[@SharonCreamer671956]

#secmusic #secancestry

[@cegaliano]

This is an overrated symphony, due to the absurd myth that Haydn choose the boring and superficial adagio, typical of the gallant style, to be executed at his funeral. Haydn wrote many more beautiful and profound symphonic adagios, such as those of the Symphonies 5, 13, 26, 34, 49, 75, and 99. The minueto si boring too. The last movement is the truly jewell of this symphony

[@Olegstuff21986]

It's not boring or superficial and this symphony certainly isn't "overrated". I can't think of one Haydn symphony that is. Generally his symphonies are unfortunately rarely played, even on classical radio stations.

[@scottalbers2518]

I heard this symphony on the radio when I was about 12 or so, and immediately wrote down the name. It took me forever to find it in the store for sale. I think I had to special order it. I still love it.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

carlos e. galiano It is fair enough to write a comment expressing how you feel personally about a particular piece of music, expressed as an opinion - but not as a fact. Your views on this particular symphony are shared by very few others. This is a sturm und drang work of great power, driving intensity and almost ethereal beauty; it is a deeply profound work, great in all four movements. The E major slow movement and trio offer a beautiful contrast to the minor key of the rest of the work and the minuet which you dismiss as ‘boring’ is in fact a clever canon between the upper and lower parts. Symphony 44 is representative of the quality of the music music that Haydn was writing at the time, that Charles Rosen in his classic text ‘The Classical Style’ (1971), described as being ‘...on a level that no other composer of Haydn’s time could equal or even approach’. In short; you might just have misunderstood this particular work - it is a very fine symphony.

[@landonmiller6943]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 It's one of Haydn's best and he wrote many, many great symphonies.

[@fennecfanatic5566]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I love reading your replies. They are super informative for someone who is just learning about classical music.