Joseph Smith, Criminal?

See past Sunday Musings: SundayMusings.org
Latter-day Saints rightly champion the innocence of Joseph Smith in multiple trials on trumped up charges, pointing out how he was falsely arrested. But was he innocent of all these charges? And which claims against him are actually believed by Mormons today?
Hemlock Knots Debate:
Part 1: • Was Joseph Smith Reall...
Part 2: • Did Joseph Smith Teach...

[@PeterBrownscouts]

Joseph and Hyrum didn't simply deny polygamy. Their statements could be seen as an innoculation. To the point that if he tells people that if they find out people like him (a prophet) are teaching these ideas from command of an angel, they aren't to believe it. The LDS angle on Joseph's polygamy simply doesn't work.

[@lilliavellino6364]

True, if Joseph really did fall for polygamy (like BY and most people have and do in some form, like today and throughout history) and he lied about his innocence, he just set himself up to be rejected, by those who followed Jesus more than men, once they found out that Joseph didn't follow Jesus as they thought and lied and lived polygamy. For Joseph taught what Jesus taught, that polygamy is always wrong and destructive. Thus why many members at the time did not believe in or follow BY out west. They stayed in the East and lived according to what Joseph had taught and the BoM on their own.

[@Preparednessman]

A video expressing the desire for truth even if it breaks tradition. Love it.

[@gradydustin1]

Amen. Joseph was not a liar nor a polygamist. Brigham was the liar. He invented polygamy and usurped the church from Joseph.

[@theGentlemanCaller73]

He definitely lied about the first vision, the Books of Abraham and Moses, the Salem treasure revelation, that Missouri is "Zion," etc etc etc. All of his prophecies failed. All of them. Meaning they weren't from God and he was lying by saying goodbye they were.

[@tombenjamin3685]

JS most definitely supported polygamy. It’s in D and C. Pretty sure he wrote that book

[@eeka2466]

@@tombenjamin3685 Only in sec 132. And that was inserted after his death. YEARS after. It also doesn't align with any of the other standards works. It's a big problem.

[@tombenjamin3685]

So, if it was inserted afterwards would u to ou say your church is currently in apostate?

[@eeka2466]

@@tombenjamin3685 That's the logical conclusion.

[@eeka2466]

Best.Musing.Ever. Keep bringing the truth. Thank you brother.

[@bbbarham6264]

Excellent presentation. So glad people are seeing through the obvious issues with the “evidence” of Joseph’s polygamy. The only reason we accept the narrative we do is because it was inherited from Brigham. The more I look into what evidence there actually is the more I’m convinced Joseph was innocent.

[@quailstudios]

I've listened to Michelle Stone many times but I find Gwendolyn Wyne to be easier to listen to when she talks about polygamy. youtube.com/@gwendolynwyne?si=D6XErzcKBsStcNGt

[@jasonsellers56]

*WOW!* 🤯 First off, I'm not sure how Y0uTube allowed your comment, since it usually automatically censors any comments with links in them. But second, I'm glad it did! I'm a fan of Michelle Stone's 132 Problems, but I had never heard of Gwendolyn Wyne until now. I just watched her "Look!" episode, and you're right, it's amazing! I insta-subbed to her channel. Thanks for sharing it! 🙏

[@rebekahgriffin567]

Both of those channels are excellent in different ways. I’m so glad we have many people studying and presenting their findings on this topic!

[@jackiechoate6163]

Most of the time YT allows links to YT content.

[@RichardChappell1]

Meh. I find Michelle Stone's entire operating position suspect. According to her own story, she camy by her concerns after her daughters cominig out, and she decided that the Church's position about marriage was a problem. While she currently claimes activity, she's following a path that is incredibly common with people who leave. But I feel like she wants the autdience she gets by staying in the Church.

[@ModelAToo]

@@RichardChappell1Listen to Gwendolyn Wyne and see what you think about her position.

[@rebeccacampbell585]

So for me when I went through all this several years ago, it came down to 1. Either Joseph Smith is a liar. 2. Either Brigham young is a liar. From what I have learned I believe Brigham is the liar. Today's lds church is aligned with Brigham young and they kind of have to be or they'd have to come clean and they'd lose a lot of blind followers. But that doesn't make it right that they still align with Brigham young. Brigham young was a murderer, adulterer, loved slavery (both black and female) and much more. Polygamy is wrong and the book of Mormon says so, and so did Joseph Smith. I had to go beyond Sunday school manuals to learn this. It's been a long process. I don't worship Joseph Smith but I will be on his side when it comes to revealing the terrible things that went on and we are still influenced by those things today.

[@ericsteele6772]

So well spoken. Amen 👍🙏❤️

[@andreab7246]

Love this ❤

[@whatsup3270]

That is not correct. Polygamy was common in Nauvoo with Joseph being the most active. It was in the Newspapers and in the courts.

[@rebeccacampbell585]

@@whatsup3270 did you watch this video at all? Everyone who thinks this way has already gone through the evidence and read all the documents. They don't support what you've said.

[@eeka2466]

@rebeccacampbell585 I have only been awakened to this knowledge in the last year or two. But what to do with it? It literally means (to me) that temple covenants are made-up Brigham constructs, the direct priesthood line and "keys" surely cannot be passed by corrupt leaders (so is the priesthood valid?), and there's no true church. Are you still a member of the LDS Church? How have you dealt with these questions?

[@meridentoombs3840]

Thank you for sharing this important truth.

[@jasonsellers56]

*Amazing* musing, Connor! I've been going down this rabbit hole for a while now (I think since your last musing on this subject), and I've gone from believing the church's narrative to agreeing completely with your take on this. I *love* the 132 Problems podcast, and I'm really glad you mentioned it here. I hope everyone reading this comment starts watching Michelle Stone's videos, starting with her first one, for a deep-dive into pretty much everything we know about polygamy. At one point in your musing, Connor, you asked why the church still claims that Joseph was a liar and secretly practiced polygamy, which church leaders today say *was* in fact commanded by God, but isn't commanded anymore. I think the reason is for the church to appear to not be in the state of apostasy that it has been in for ~180 years. Here's what I mean: On one hand, if Joseph was lying, that can be justified as "lying for the Lord"; the ends (exaltation with one's family) justify the means (mere lies), and it supports the belief that the priesthood keys are still on the Earth today, and held by President Nelson. On the other hand, if Joseph was telling the truth, then Brigham Young was not only lying, but repeatedly fornicating, even with 13 and 14 year old girls, treating women as property, and teaching others to do the same. What's more, it would give a motive for John Taylor and Willard Richards to murder Joseph and Hyrum in Carthage jail, since they were incentivized by their deep involvement in the spread of polygamy. If the "transfiguration of Brigham" never happened, and if those who *might* have rightly taken over after Joseph's death were adulterers and murderers, then how could the priesthood keys have *possibly* been passed down to us -- including to our current leaders -- from them? Throw in Doctrine and Covenants 124: 26-35 (especially verses 31-32), and consider how the Nauvoo temple *wasn't* completed during the Lord's appointed time, and it becomes clear that the church -- while usually run by well-meaning men -- *does not hold God's authority today.* The same goes for any offshoot of the LDS church, and any other church that I personally know of. I know this may be difficult for some to accept. If so, I plead for you to do your own research, and then take what you learn to the Lord. The 132 Problems podcast and the "Who Killed Joseph Smith" documentary and Y0uTube channeI are great places to start, but *always* turn to the Lord and ask Him about what you learn. I did, and received a witness that He already knew about all of this (of course), that He has a plan, and everything is going to work out in the end for those who truly follow Him.

[@psmith535]

Jason! Absolutely!

[@rebeccacampbell585]

Well said

[@mountainmanbrock1]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying. But consider this…why then do Priesthood blessings given at times bring forth miracles, not always but on occasion they definitely do and everything from patriarchal blessings and blessings of counsel and priesthood ordinations bring forth good in inspiring and often profoundly accurate statements and results. I’ve heard of amazing healing and incredible miracles taking place. Why are these blessings and admirations often so apparently affective ?🤷‍♂️ Because when done in purity and faith the Lord can and often does ratify them. God can bring forth good in spite of the efforts of the devil to infiltrate and desecrate. Consider the example of Alma, who baptized him? Authority is significant but not entirely as we in our mortal minds imagine. God is still bringing good out of the church in spite of the actions and efforts of Evil and conspiring men. But we must also recognize the fallacy of putting our hope and trust in any man, it all rests on Christ and our relationship with him

[@bobbyshiffler80]

🎯

[@jasonsellers56]

@mountainmanbrock1 Thanks for your comment. I have considered that, and until recently that was how I understood it, as well. As you said, all those miracles and revelations from priesthood blessings can come through great faith, as well. For example, when the women of the Relief Society during Joseph's time were laying on hands and healing the sick, some men came to Joseph and asked him to make them stop, since they weren't ordained to the priesthood. Joseph basically responded with, "But is it working?" When they said it was, Joseph was like, "Then why should I stop them?" Faith has always been the key to unlocking God's power in our lives, not authority. Only Earthly, pretend powers come from supposed "authority". As for Alma, he baptized himself, along with Helam at the same time. Where did he get his authority to baptize? I don't know for sure, but King Noah had just installed new priests that had just started being wicked, and Alma was the newest one. It's possible he was rightly ordained by an old priest from King Zeniff's time, who hadn't lost his priesthood to major sins. Remember, though, that all priesthood holders sin. Just because they weren't honest at work, or they gave into sexual temptations, that doesn't necessarily mean they'd need to be reordained. So this brings up an important question: at what point would sins be so bad that one *would* have to be reordained, following sincere repentance? I don't know where that line would be exactly drawn, but I believe rape and pedophilia (which Brigham Young was guilty of, and certainly never repented of in his lifetime, but rather preached it to his dying breath), as well as murder (which John Taylor was guilty of, in addition to rape and pedophilia) are extreme enough for one to lose their priesthood keys. Your last part, about authority, is spot-on, and I agree 1000%. There is still a *lot* of good in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and God is patiently working with his saints (both in the church and out of it) to bring about His eternal purposes. But in general, the Lord taught that the church will not come out from under condemnation under it remembers the old and new covenants, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and we start living by their teachings. To do that, the church and its leadership need to repent, which must include *confessing* that our old wicked practices (polygamy, the priesthood ban, blood atonement, shutting down churches and temples, etc) were never commanded by God, but were always evils from the hearts of men who were anything but prophets, and then *forsaking* those teachings entirely. But like a child who's only sorry they got caught doing something bad, and not actually genuinely sorry for the wrongs they did, the church's leadership has been attempting to forsake its past, but without confessing that those things in its past were simply wrong in every way. And so, the church has been stuck, with no new light, knowledge, or power, and it will continue to be, until its members and leaders repent.

[@beckywright7906]

Thanks Conner this was really interesting, your musings are very thoughtful and I appreciate them. I believe Joesph is innocent. ❤

[@cherylclute4981]

Excellent podcast! I appreciate all the research you’ve done. ♥️

[@thereluctantwatchman]

Joseph and the Smith family were far greater of a people than the LDS church has ever given them credit. They stood upon principles of virtue and morality. They understood the importance of marriage between one wife and one man, defending that position relentlessly. I never thought that the phrase that Joseph's name would be had for evil would come from the very church that claims him as the prophet of the Restoration.

[@StompMom5]

Completely agree😇⚡💯💯💯. Our founding father who gave his life to this church has had his name smeared by the very members who have greatly benefited from the gospel. It's time to clean that up

[@ericredd5590]

@@StompMom5 I am curious to know how others reconcile the fact that Brigham Young and many other early leaders (not to mention current leaders) of the church actually claimed that polygamy was initiated by JS? It has real consequences. How are you able to make sense of it?

[@lilliavellino6364]

So true. Even if Joseph had fallen for polygamy (as most people today and throughout history do and have in some form, for it's a natural man tendency far easier than monogamy) though it seems he was innocent of it, at least he left us with the truth about it, that it is always wrong and destructive. But more importantly we know that Jesus taught that polygamy is never ok and always wrong. Why would we believe BY or anyone over Jesus?

[@lilliavellino6364]

@@ericredd5590 Because they were trying to make polygamy seem justified, for if it isn't than the Church proves false, as it does anyway when you compare many of it's teachings with what Jesus taught. Many members back then refused to believe in or follow BY out west, for they knew what Joseph (and Jesus) had taught against all polygamy. So they just continued living what was right on their own. If people believe in the teachings of Jesus than they could see that BY and others and most in the Old Testament lived and taught opposite to what Jesus taught.

[@ericredd5590]

@@lilliavellino6364 ok, but the supposed unbroken line of prophetic leadership supposedly runs from JS thru-BY to current day. We know BY hyjacked the church framing JS (if you accept JS was not a polygamist). And the church today says JS was a polygamist. These are real problems that must be addressed if anyone is supposed to believe god leads and directs his church through LDS prophets. And Nelson and Oaks are polygamous now.

[@user-tt1lq2xl2s]

Enjoy your musings-you always answer questions that I have been pondering on. Excellent job!

[@edtalbott564]

Lying is never OK, even for the Lord. It would have been easier for any prophet that was faced with execution to lie or deceive. Think of Daniel, Abinadi, or Jesus to name a few. I believe Joseph and Hyrum. If they were lying and living a lie, I don't want any part of them or the organization they started.

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

Thankfully they weren't lying but unfortunately the organization they started doesn't exist anymore. Go straight to the Lord Jesus Christ for truth!

[@davidchoate512]

@@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist That’s fine if you quit the “no longer lds church Joseph smith helped restore”, but if you use it as an excuse to break your covenants to the Lord, that’s an entirely different story.

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

​@@davidchoate512 the Covenants made in the temple are not to the Lord but to the Church. Go and listen carefully and see who is telling you to do what exactly.

[@1klakak]

Nephi lied for the Lord. And killed.

[@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist]

​@@1klakak under the law of Moses eye for an eye. Killing Laban was not murder. Nephi didn't lie to Zoram. Zoram misunderstood him.

[@Kait272]

one has to ask how the man had 40 wives when he was running from the law and in court so much during that 3 year period. Joseph was not a polygamsit.

[@EdmundPatak]

And running for president too.

[@PrimaNet1830]

Excellent episode! Thanks for sharing the truth. Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum told the truth and fought polygamy.

[@frazer9]

HAHAHAHHAHAHA

[@lilliavellino6364]

Even if people believe they fell for polygamy they at least taught in line with what Jesus taught, when BY taught the opposite of Jesus. For Jesus taught against all forms of polygamy and that it could never be ok or right. Most people today and throughout history like polygamy in some form though, whether serial or concurrent, and thus want to believe it's ok, for it's far easier and more enticing to the natural man than monogamy, and so most religions support or allow it in some form to gain members, instead of teaching what Jesus taught.

[@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif]

“When the present President of the Salt Lake Church, Wilford Woodruff, was on the witness stand, he testified that on the 15th of November, 1844, there was no marriage ceremony in the church except that published in the [Book of Doctrine and Covenants] 1835 edition. He was then asked why the church, of which he is president, in the publication of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants in the Salt Lake edition thereof published in 1876, and inserted in lieu thereof the claimed revelation on polygamy of 1843. Answer: ‘I do not know why it was done. It was done by the authority of whoever presided over the church, I suppose. Brigham Young was the President then.’” - Judge John F. Philips (1894)

[@shellyfox9410]

I have been studying this topic since I saw your musing about 132 awhile ago. It has been eye opening and life changing in may wonderful and difficult ways.

[@jasonsellers56]

"...eye opening and life changing in may wonderful and difficult ways." Ain't that the truth!

[@afternoonadventure]

Exactly my sentiments

[@lisa143justin]

"Lying for the Lord" has got to be one of the most satanic phrases I've ever heard.

[@remainingtruetotherestorat6506]

Show me a source where Brigham Young taught anyone to “lie” for the Lord…. I will wait…

[@ItsSnagret]

You ever heard of Nephi? Or Abraham?

[@cherylclute4981]

@@remainingtruetotherestorat6506 Journal of Discourses 4:77; “I have many a time, in this stand, dared the world to produce as mean devils as we can; we can beat them at anything. We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world, the cunninest and most adroit thieves, and any other shade of character that you can mention. Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, November 9, 1856 by Brigham Young

[@cherylclute4981]

Journal of Discourses 4:77; “I have many a time, in this stand, dared the world to produce as mean devils as we can; we can beat them at anything. We have the greatest and smoothest liars in the world, the cunninest and most adroit thieves, and any other shade of character that you can mention. Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, November 9, 1856 by Brigham Young ⁠@@remainingtruetotherestorat6506

[@tombenjamin3685]

Cut to a montage of him reading, sobbing, then rereading both books!

[@ejs7721]

Thank you for putting this all together in an easy to understand video.

[@justin-griffin]

Great episode. Logically speaking, the historical evidence does not prove Joseph was a polygamist beyond a reasonable doubt. But members of the church don’t care because the current prophet says he was. Why even bother studying scripture and historical documents if the prophet trumps everything anyway?

[@jasonsellers56]

@justin-griffin Exactly. People (not just members of the church) tend to outsource their thinking to others, so they can focus more on the day-to-day grind. I know I'm guilty of this, too. But Satan knows this and takes advantage of it, pacifying many into carnal security of being on 'the winning side,' that all is well in Zion, and that they shouldn't have to learn these things for themselves. "And thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell."

[@RichardChappell1]

The challenge with your statement is that the historical evidence does not prove Joseph wasn't a polygamist beyond a reasonable doubt. Is the prophet really a prophet? You know how to find out.

[@Triumphantday]

​@@RichardChappell1he wasn't. We need to take Joseph at his word. If you would like the PDF of all of his polygamy denials in public, leave your email and I'll send it to you.

[@RichardChappell1]

Hahahaha. Sorry. You are not the reliable source. It's funny you think that people who disagree are ignorant.

[@Triumphantday]

@@RichardChappell1 it's not my source dip s***

[@didjosephsmithpracticepolygamy]

This is so well done! Thank you

[@johncato4412]

If the presiding quorums of the church were lying, committing adultery, changing history, practicing blood atonement, etc.; how in the world can priesthood authority remain?

[@lilliavellino6364]

It can't and never existed. Just study and follow the teachings of Jesus, don't go astray.

[@rhyde0731]

Heartlanders on urim and thumim vs seer stone: “that’s not what Joseph said! I believe Joseph!” Heartlanders on Joseph’s polygamy: “crickets”

[@sarahpeacock9686]

I don't get it. What does belief of where the BofM took place have any bearing on Joseph and the translation process of the BofM or polygamy?

[@johncato4412]

He is saying if you believe Joseph’s account of geography and translation, you should believe his account on being monogamist.

[@jaymecarter8578]

Thank you Connor for sharing truth!

[@jacquelinesmith1509]

Connor... I've been on this same journey for a few years. I love that you've read much of the same material. This has freed my mind in so many ways. I was on 132 problems myself. What an adventure.

[@ithinkipoopt]

It's amazing the burden that is lifted when you learn this.

[@ericredd5590]

@@ithinkipoopt I understand that believing JS did not practice polygamy might give some relief about polygamy, but the reality that Brigham Young and the church embraced polygamy, creates real problems for those who now need to trust a church and doctrine that were hijacked by Brigham Young. What good is it if we create an island for the founding prophet and forget to think critically about what it means for the church after BY. The current leaders are forced to side with BY in order to not highlight the hijacking of the church by BY.

[@IBelieveJoseph]

Thanks for the great video, Connor! I’m glad that you believe Joseph, too.

[@Cali-is-top10]

I’m so glad you get it, Connor! Thanks for sharing these views with your audience.

[@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif]

Joseph Smith in a letter to the Relief Society about those teaching the false doctrine of polygamy: “…you are authorized on the very first intimation of the kind to denounce them as such & them as the fiery flying serpents, whether they are *prophets, seers, or Revelators, patriarchs, Twelve apostles, Elders, Priests,* Mayors, Generals, city council alderman, Marshall, Police, Lord Mayor or the Devil, are alike culpable. & shall be damned for such evil practices…”

[@ericredd5590]

@@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif that is a great quote. But, now tell me how you reconcile that BY and every other prophet has maintained polygamy as being from god? Oaks and Nelson are currently polygamous, god seems to be on their side regardless of JS lying or not about his polygamy.

[@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif]

@@ericredd5590 Why would I need to reconcile such a thing? Obviously polygamy produces rotten, vile fruit. Just look at all the cultures and cults that practice it. “God seems to be on their side?” How so more than others? Richer? Happier? Healthier?

[@jennedge123]

Wow - excellent research and presentation. I believe Joseph was innocent of these charges of polygamy and have researched hundreds of hours, including all the books, podcasts and JS papers you’ve mentioned.

[@frazer9]

So d&c 132 is fake 🤥, his wives testimony in court documents in the temple lot case are fake 🤥. Journal entries from his wives, all fake🤥🤣

[@jacbox3889]

That spiritual sect that practiced spiritual wifery was the Cochranites. One of Brigham's wives, Augusta Cobbs, was part of that group.

[@rhyde0731]

And after leaving her 1st husband she gives birth to a boy she named Brigham

[@Dont-Be-Abi-Yussif]

@@rhyde0731 Yep, sure did and she wasn’t even divorced from her first husband when it happened. Brigham knew she was a married woman with 7 kids, but he wanted what he wanted. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@PrimaNet1830]

In the Temple Lot Case, using all the evidence and witnesses, the judge concluded Joseph was innocent of polygamy and did not start polygamy in the church.

[@RichardChappell1]

Yeah, that's not true. In Section X of the opinion by Judge Phillips, it merely found that the doctrine "was never promulgated, taught, nr recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young." The trial was not about charging JS of polygamy - there was no law against bigamy or polygamy when Joseph Smith was alive. He couldn't have been found guilty of something that wasn't even illegal.

[@7dixiebug]

@@RichardChappell1 Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't mean it's legal. If so, Brigham Young and others wouldn't have tried to hide it like they did. I've talked to others who think that it was okay because it was so uncommon that a law hadn't formally been made against it. But...one couldn't legally be married to another person then either. There was no way to get a marriage license or have a legitimate minister perform a polygamous marriage. But as you I believe intimated, the Temple Lot Case was about who got to own the temple lot after Joseph's death. That case awarded the temple lot to the other side because the church had failed to convince the judge that Joseph taught polygamy and that was the basis on which they determined who won the temple lot---which side taught more closely what Joseph Smith taught. So it ended up being decided on the basis of polygamy.

[@PrimaNet1830]

@@RichardChappell1 you explained the ruling very well. It’s completely significant that polygamy didn’t start with Joseph when discussing the theological side of the church. And the other commenter explained why who started polygamy was relevant to the Temple Lot Case, and made some other great points.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@PrimaNet1830 What's highly significant is that there was no ruling one way or another, just one of no legal evidence. Turning that into something meaningful is dishonest.

[@PrimaNet1830]

@@RichardChappell1it’s completely honest to share the judge’s ruling. And it’s relevant to false accusations against Joseph, who didn’t start polygamy in the church.

[@RunningtoHim828]

I pray this continues to gain traction and that the church finally has to confront the actual evidence. The Saints volumes chapters on polygamy are a disgusting joke.

[@frazer9]

Is the happiness letter also a joke? LOL

[@RunningtoHim828]

@@frazer9 um, yes it is actually

[@timoaks1372]

Well said! It is about time we end the slander of the good name of Joseph Smith!!

[@jacbox3889]

Thank you thank you thank you! I do not believe Joseph was a liar! I believe Joseph!

[@jaylarsen67]

Connor, all your sources about JS are from LDS church that have intrinsic and extrinsic bias. Please reference credible historians.

[@rebekahgriffin567]

Thank you for this clear synopsis. I stand with you in believing Joseph innocent of these charges.

[@remainingtruetotherestorat6506]

You stand with anyone who is against the Church you were excommunicated from. You don’t believe Joseph Smith. Jospeh Smith restored a church, the Priesthood, priesthood offices and Quorums. All of these things you reject.

[@jasonsellers56]

@remainingtruetotherestorat6506 lol, it's hilarious how you're telling her where she stands and what she believes, just like anti-mormons do to us.

[@jasonsellers56]

@rebekahgriffin567 Thank you for everything you and your husband have done and are doing for the cause of truth. ❤️

[@rebekahgriffin567]

@@remainingtruetotherestorat6506 actually I think your side is more in line with the exmos on this topic. I stand on the side of truth, no matter the consequences.

[@littleredhen3218]

Well said Connor. Well researched! No historical malpractice going on here! Your conclusions are based in and on FACTS and TRUTH!!!!!!!

[@RichardChappell1]

Well, except for who is chosen to believe and not. There's plenty of contradictory information on both sides of this discussion.

[@dougknighton5348]

D&C 132:38-39 directly contradicts Jacob 2:23-24. Did God give David and Solomon their wives and concubines or was it an abomination? I trust the book of Mormon.

[@jasonsellers56]

There are many problems like that in section 132, like where it falsely says in the very first verse that Isaac and Moses were polygamists. Truth stands the test of time. The Book of Mormon just gets more obviously true with every year and every new archeological discovery (to say nothing of the good fruits and Spirit that keep coming from it). But polygamy and section 132 (as well as the idea that it came through Joseph) fall like a house of cards under even a little honest examination.

[@RichardChappell1]

Except that verses 23-24 are only a part of the discussion, and out of context in the way you are using it.

[@RichardChappell1]

@@jasonsellers56 You mean examination that agrees with you. There's a difference.

[@1klakak]

It doesn't contradict, though. People just can't use English syntax correctly and/or want to conform to their biases on the topic.

[@dougknighton5348]

@@1klakak D&C reads 39David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord. Jacob 2 reads 24Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. The verse in D&C seems pretty clear to me in that it says it was GOOD that David had wives and concubines. God gave them an approved of them. Jacob says that David having multiple wives and concubines was an abomination. Help me out here. How can you read those passages any other way?

[@KyleWKDUB]

Excellent! The polygamy narrative has never sat well with me, ever. I believe Joseph. Another good youtube channel "I believe Joseph".

[@jonny6man]

Nice job using that confirmation bias and finding cognitive ease! You can be at peace and find comfort by not needing to look further. Or...you can search for what is most likely accurate by using logic.

[@sadiegirl1243]

Well, the seminary Manuel during D&C year had seminary teachers tell the kids an Angel of the Lord, holding a sword, came to Joseph and said he would die if he didn’t practice polygamy. A convert to the church…family had struggles-first year kid went to seminary-came from sexual abuse in his family-they were getting out of the pattern joining the church, etc. It triggered the kid so bad he never went back to church. We lost a young man who could have served a mission & marry in the temple…Why? Why? Why is this going on?

[@lilliavellino6364]

Yes, Joseph knew and even taught not to follow even angels who came teaching things contrary to what Jesus taught. So he wouldn't have fallen for such an angel.

[@sadiegirl1243]

@@lilliavellino6364 and yet the church had seminary teachers teach this. Not that it was an Angel from Satan either.

[@Thepreparedguy]

Thank you, Connor.

[@Wdbut]

Great episode. You bring up some very important and legitimate positions.

[@jeandouglass8136]

Yeah Amen in my research he was and is as he claimed… not a follower nor supporter of polygamy!

[@richhaubrich6126]

My wife and I have been and are strong LDS with very strong testimonies. But we are very disturbed by the church leaders lying to church members about polygamy. If we had lived then, we would have been very upset as were many. We have continued to be active members of the LDS church.

[@ruckin3]

which church leaders lying and in what time and what lies?

[@wheels636]

I had several members of my family that lived polygamy in the late 1800's. I honestly think there were some purposes that most people never thought about. The biggest is the Lord allows stumbling blocks like polygamy and the things Connor Boyack's talking about today to be placed before people to determine whose faith will be tried. If we lose our faith because of polygamy or Black's and the priesthood or whatever we fail the faith testing.

[@Sallygirl111]

@@wheels636god never commands wickedness to test faith

[@Aristotle33]

Lying about polygamy was justified at the time. Ethical Obligatory confidentiality and dissemblance are often employed to keep information from others - on a need to know basis. It was more ethical to lie for them than it was than to disclose and have mobs destroy them earlier, in the absence of guarantees of the rule of law.

[@wheels636]

@Sallygirl111 what wickedness was there in one's opinion and that's it is is your opinions. Because you weren't there and know of what actually happened.

[@132ProblemsToThePoint]

Amen!

[@tylerboyce6502]

So... 🤔 if you believe Joseph was innocent and was not practicing polygamy, how can you justify that the church has never denounced Brigham Young? They can't both be right! One of them was a sleazy liar!

[@lilliavellino6364]

True, either way one of them lied and so the Church could not be true today, for Joseph or Brigham or both would be the false prophets described by Jesus to avoid and not fall for, for they did not live all of his teachings if any.

[@user-zf9vb3np2p]

This is one of the BEST videos on defending Joseph Smith that I've ever seen!!! I hope and pray all our LDS brothers and sisters can will view this!

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

AMEN!! as you were going through all these things, i was thinking how ironic it is that so many lds believe he was guilty even though he denied it consistently.

[@StompMom5]

Traditional believing Mormons are the same as anti Mormon. Weird they don't see that

[@7dixiebug]

Very well done. Love the perspective you took here. Thanks for doing all that research!

[@freethinker1056]

Wow! Thank you. I had no idea. I know polygamy was absolutely in the Old Testament. I thought I was well read on Church history and doctrine. I look forward to your musings and share with my family. I rarely listen to church leaders anymore because of their politically correct leadership. I look at what’s happening as 2 Thessalonians 2. I enjoy your truth telling. Ha! This gives me more sympathy for Trump!

[@littled6698]

😂😂 Trump?!?

[@Joemakatozi1776]

Lawfare

[@kristinecase8602]

Great information!

[@scottvance74]

What's interesting from my perspective is that while some church members tout his legal innocence, they do not consider the actual charges and whether or not he was guilty of the charges brough against him. Did he use a seer stone to look for treasure? Yes. Did he start an illegal bank? Yes. Did he commit bigamy? Yes. From my perspective the actual guilt or innocence is more important than what the court decided.

[@DragonZlayerx12]

Based attacking a tax collector

[@ericredd5590]

The official position of the church is that JS did practice polygamy. I think you have laid out a great argument against the position of the church. If you are correct then how do you reconcile the great lenghts that Brigham Young and many other early church leaders went through to show Joseph and Hyrum were the originators of polygamy? In other words current prophets still do not acknowledge polygamy is/was wrong.

[@tylerboyce6502]

46:58 How can you be comfortable with the possibility that Joseph was practicing polygamy and vehemently denied it?

[@Brandon-Is-Not-Fooled]

Joseph wasnt a liar and didnt practice polygamy. Unless God commanded it. Then its justified.

[@FleeingBabylon-Now]

The Savior said there are two churches only. Joseph followed one God and Brigham .... therefore the fruit of the two are opposites. The Savior started one church and a few years later the 12 were killed and within a few years it was gone. Yet the teachings of the Bible remained and a new church carried on until there were many churches. I think our individual choice determines which of the two churches we are in.

[@Cali-is-top10]

Very interesting. Thank you!

[@erikpeoples8041]

As you stated early in your video, enemies were basically going through Joseph’s trash to find something that stunk ever before the church was formed all the way through Joseph’s death. If Joseph was committing polygamy or adultery people would have noticed and used it against him or would have used it contemporaneously in the moment to justify their polygamy. The best evidence they have is to say he taught such in private not that Joseph was doing it. If a woman was a polygamous wife of Joseph she would have such a feather in her cap that she would have a hard time keeping it a secret. So if Joseph was a polygamist with so many secret wives they all kept their silence when the other polygamous wives of other church leaders were not?

[@jaredvaughan1665]

PLEASE SINCERELY READ My experience with history (I have a BA in American History) is the truth is in the middle between 2 opposing extremes. One extreme: Joseph never practiced or promoted polygamy. So what if the affidavits in the Expositor clearly describe all the troubling parts we don't like about D&C 132 that Hyrum presented to the Nauvoo council. Who cares if hundreds of people saw or heard the document that came to be 132 prior to 1847 when it was recopied and handed over to Brigham. Who cares that the wording of 132 was Joseph's and not Brigham's and that Brigham was not capable of writing it. It magically appeared from Brigham's desk in 1852!!! Who cares if hundreds of people testified of Joseph initiating polygamy. They are ALL liars. And Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma were too infallible to lie. Other extreme: Who cares about Jacob 2 and King Noah and his priests being described as wicked for having multiple wives. In Joseph's day, God was a changin. And sure "these things" in Jacob 2:30 were described as "the abominations of polygamy" elsewhere in Jacob 2, but if we tweaked things to make "these things" mean Jacob's entire discourse (that was preserved for OUR day) we have a loophole to steal wives (and call it seal wives) and kick the excess men out of Utah. And it's not adultery so long as we "multiple and replenish the earth." I think the reason the LDS and Reorganized Church remained at odds over this issue for so long is because neither side can drop their deep felt idea that Joseph was too infallible to write a Revelation that contained his own lustful desires. So the LDS church claims we should accept 132 as scripture even though Joseph nor the body of the Church ever voted it to be. And the Reorganized Church went into denial mode and pretended someone less capable of writing it (like Brigham Young) wrote it. The challenge with 132 is that the nonpolygamy parts are powerful and true. So how do you throw the bathwater out without throwing out to baby? I am convinced that the Lord was displeased with Joseph for introducing these false concepts the same way he was displeased with Moses for overstepping. Resulting in handing over the task to Joshua and Brigham Young taking the Israelites into Salt Lake Valley/Israel (both desert areas with Lake Utah/Sea of Galilee emptying into Jordan River towards Salt Lake/Dead Sea.) I think the Salt Lake Temple not being completed until after the Saints formally abandoned polygamy, and it taking 40 years to build was similar to the Saints roaming 40 years in the wilderness because of their sexual sins. Sexual sin is massively common even amongst God's people. To think Joseph could not have been tempted into sexual sin by using his revelatory powers to call adultery "plural Celestial Marriage" would mean God denied him his agency. I believe God removed him for this reason. And God prevented him from having offspring so that he could give a glimmer of hope to the Joseph practiced polygamy deniers. Who I sympathize with as Jacob 2 (and the JST) make it clear Solomon and David's polygamy was an abomination. D&C 132 falsely negates this. The scriptures make it clear the sins of the parents are transferred to the the children unto the 3rd or 4th generations. Joseph's descendants are all outside the covenant. And only a few have accepted the gospel in the 3rd and 4th generations. This is why I accept William Mark's testimony as the middle and correct positon: True, Joseph promoted it. True, he admitted that it was a mistake and curse. I didn't say he started it. Because new evidence shows many of his followers were involved in it parallel to him. It's possible polygamists like William Clayton pressured Joseph to create 132 to satisfy their lists.

[@jondxxxiii]

This is why the RLDS is the true Latter Day Saint Church.

[@rickyde0255]

Very interesting.

[@thenoseharps]

I love the research and information. I don’t want to come across like I’m defending plural marriage, but I go back to scripture. Jacob 2:28-30 says the Lord reserves the right to implement it to raise up seed unto himself. Any thoughts on that are welcomed.

[@charisecarlson]

I recommend watching Michelle Stone’s podcast, God is not a polygamist. Her KZbin channel is 132 Problems. One of the things it goes through is Jacob 2.

[@tylerboyce6502]

38:04 Exactly! They can't both be telling the truth. Either Joseph lied, or Brigham lied. Either way, it's a huge problem.

[@lilliavellino6364]

Yes, either way the Church today couldn't be true. For if Joseph lied than he was a false or fallen prophet, for Jesus taught that we can discern true prophets by the fact that they keep all his teachings, and he taught against lying and all forms of polygamy. And if BY and other leaders lied or supported, lived or believed in polygamy they would be false prophets too, according to both Joseph Smith and Jesus.

[@jeffreymax1822]

Fantastic video Connor! Thank you! The truth is shining forth!

[@jaylarsen67]

Connor you seem to opine that JS got little sleep without any credible evidence.

[@stevenhamblin6067]

Look at Donald Trump in the way he's being charged and accused of crimes. It's what people do.

[@GAILandROD]

Well I guess Trump is wrong when he says " this is a witch-hunt...we have never seen anything like this" I guess we have! The Prophet Joseph Smith!

[@Topher2024]

🔥🔥🔥 SPICY!!!!!

[@oshemer5066]

This a troubling take because if true it means that not only Brigham deceived the church but also John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Lorenzo Snow were in on the deception too as they all claimed they were taught this doctrine by Joseph Smith, not to mention the other members of the twelve who were contemporaries of the Prophet. If this is true, we’re in the wrong church and should belong to the Community of Christ.

[@jasonsellers56]

I agree, up until the last part. The RLDS/CoC is not necessarily true, just because it didn't commit this particular heinous sin. All the offshoots could be wrong together, especially since the RLDS church changed to become the Community of Christ, and has been gradually disavowing Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, ordaining women to the priesthood, etc. Think of the miraculous things that came through Joseph Smith. If there is a prophet, seer, and revelator on the Earth, they will (a) claim that God came to them and gave them their calling to call the world to repentance, (b) actually prophesy, see, and reveal, and (c) those prophecies, things they see, and revelations will bear good fruit (i.e. they'll come true, make the world better, etc). Personally, I know of no one like this, and until I do, I will continue to follow Jesus Christ as best I can, as a member of the mainstream LDS church, where I can bless the most lives possible. I'll keep my eyes and heart open for God to work His wonders, so when (not if) He chooses another real prophet, seer, and revelator, it can be said of me: "Searching in darkness, Nations have wept. Watching for dawn, Their vigil they kept."

[@jakebox3036]

In D&C 10 the lord says all those that repent and come unto are my church. The Book of Mormon says all those that repent are my covenant people. (2 nephi 30). Traditions of today are placing churches as idols. Obsessed with choosing the right church though in 2 nephi 28 nephi indicates “they have all gone out of the way”. Make repentance and coming unto Christ the foundation of your faith rather than churches governed by man in many ways.

[@Hpencer]

Yes, the LDS church is an apostate church. The same Freemason infiltrators that threw Joseph under the bus, killed him and his brothers, still control the official LDS church today. They didn't just lie about Joseph's polygamy. Garments, temple, the endowment, etc.

[@jasonsellers56]

@jakebox3036 *YES!* 💯

[@FleeingBabylon-Now]

Exactly true and a bitter pill. There is a reason there are no revelations.

[@joyce7892]

As you went through all of those arrests and accusations, it reminded me of what's going on now in NYC with our past president. I'm not comparing the men fyi.

[@kathybence]

Thank you for pointing out this obvious inconsistency. How could Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum speak so strongly against multiple wives in their lifetime yet support it? Why do we believe the later testimonies of others that change the meaning of Joseph’s words? Is it time to stop believing anything Joseph said?

[@sheldonjackson383]

Connor, I’ve just discovered your Musings podcast and agree with and enthusiastically endorse 95% of what I’ve heard! Joseph clearly and honestly condemned ‘spiritual wifery’, fornication, adultery and ‘polygamy’. Joseph was completely honest altho necessarily circumspect when required, to shield The Principle. What Joseph was actually practicing (by Divine commandment) was Celestial marriage, otherwise known as Divine Celestial Polygyny. This is absolutely NOT splitting hairs, obfuscating or ‘lying for The Lord. As an example: many people ‘live together’ and claim to be ‘married’. This is NOT marriage no matter what it is other wise called. Joseph decried and derided all the corrupt immoral shenanigans of those who ultimately were participants in his murder; who claimed that he secretly endorsed their bogus spiritual wifery and polygamy.

[@barbarabailey6833]

Thank you for bringing this to the surface. It repaints the whole history. Time for me to read the Joseph Smith Papers.

[@sherriedix5837]

I do not think he was a polygamist. But where did the disconnect happen that the next prophet as well as others were? I still think Brigham was a prophet but how did he get to the point he was practicing? I kinda have to stop at Joseph wasn’t one.

[@RichardChappell1]

And considering Brigham was on his 4th plural wife while Joseph was alive, and yet did not excommunicate him as he had others who practiced it unauthorized, suggests that either Joseph didn't consider it a sin, or was no longer functioning. That sure doesn't seem legitimate.

[@ekh1821]

Please look up 132 problems podcast. A faithful member takes a deep dive into polygamy in the scriptures and then in our church history. It's a lot of information, but if you are a truth seeker, as many of Connor's followers are, you will be eager to learn it! Start at the beginning. Section 132 wasn't even in the D&C until decades after Joseph's death. It has a very questionable history. The way tradition has taught us to interpret the scriptures, especially regarding polygamy, is in many ways skewed. It doesn't mean the church is all bad. It means the Book of Mormon prophecies are accurate and we have some repenting to do!

[@jaredshipp9207]

@ekh1821 Except Michelle Stone isn't faithful. It's only a matter of time before she either leaves the Church or is excommunicated.

[@ItsSnagret]

So, what do we make of Brigham Young, his polygamy, and the current church? Did they go astray but keep the keys? Was it actually approved by God for Brigham Young?

[@FleeingBabylon-Now]

No they killed the man with the keys, the 12 never had them. Read Joseph's patriarchal blessings. He still has the keys only.

[@RunningtoHim828]

This is a tough pill to swallow, but no. The evidence shows that while the Twelve were isolated from the church in Europe during 1838-1841 that a David/Solomon type of plural marriage system started among them, using Cochranite doctrine. Upon returning to the church in Missouri/ Nauvoo, they continued it in secret, essentially creating two churches, one public and one private. However, the entire Smith family (minus William who was a bit of a scoundrel) denied and fought against it their whole lives.

[@FleeingBabylon-Now]

@@RunningtoHim828 They came into the church with the purpose of taking it over. Joseph never stood any more chance than the early apostles who lost the first church within a few years.

[@RunningtoHim828]

@@FleeingBabylon-Now maybe, but I have yet to see strong enough evidence make such strong claims about their initial intentions.

[@RichardChappell1]

Even if Joseph Smith hadn't died, polygamy was not illegal for him to be charged. Which legal proceeding eas specifically charging Joseph with bigamy or polygamy? It was included in a number of justifications, but it seems to be that the actual cases are other things. I've seen a whole group of accusations of being a disorderly person over a few days, assault and battery, performing marriages without a valid license, attempted murder or conspiracy, Involuntary servitude (for Zion's Camp), debt collection and banking charges - including fraud and self enrichment, inciting a riot and assault, murder, arson, theft, rebellion and treason from the Battle of Crooked River, destruction of the press, inciting a riot again for the Nauvoo Expositor, and traason again which is what led to his death. But I've never seen or heard of a trial specifically for bigamy or polygamy. Can you share which case and court that was in?

[@kurttlethorup]

So joseph did not practice polygamy??

[@jonny6man]

He most likely did practice it. It's more of a conspiracy theory now that he didn't. However, when I was growing up, it was taught that he had only one wife. At least, that's what i taught investigators while on my mission.

[@kurttlethorup]

@jonny6man i am surprised to keep hearing that he didn't, as far as i was aware, it was a fact.

[@jonny6man]

​@kurttlethorup Yeah, it is pretty factual so it's hard to trust anything Conner says if he gets this wrong.

[@jonny6man]

Ive listened to a few videos now and the points seem pretty reasonable but if Connor cant be honest with himself about this he has some growing to do.

[@steel6322]

@@jonny6manWhat makes it factual?

[@jaromywilkins6246]

Wait wait wait if they were against polygamy then why did Brigham do what he did that means he lied yet the lord did not remove him from his place Wich just shows that not everything the brethren say is 100% or even 50/50

[@RunningtoHim828]

Because, the Lord honors agency above all. If the people want a king, he gives them a king. If they want a church, he gives them a church. If they want to follow a leader instead of seeking God (like in the case of Moses) - he lets them. If the people get swindled and don’t check with God then he lets them. THERE NEVER WAS A GUARANTEE THST WE COULDNT BE LED ASTRAY. 18 months before his death Joseph read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 13 to the relief society. This chapter is about people who follow leaders when their hearts aren’t right and how they can and will be led astray. He warned them that their allegiance to simply follow him (the prophet) was darkening their minds and leading them to the same state as ancient Israel…. Well, look what happened. The sisters of the church got swindled, the leaders cleaved on to many errant doctrines, and the church was not redeemed due to their erring hearts and we have a Mormon chapter 8 scenario…. And we have had a dearth of revelation and the power of god ever since as a collective church. We are led by creed, council, and dogma. The signs of God we read of in the Book of Mormon and Book of Acts are largely absent because we have idols in our hearts. We worship our leaders. We worship the temples. We worship the so-called “true church”…. These are perilous times, but look to God. He answers those who call to him with broken hearts and contrite spirits and his promise to baptize with the Holy Ghost is still in effect. No “true and living church” needed. There is an awakening and arising happening. Don’t miss it ❤

[@lilliavellino6364]

Jesus taught that polygamy is always wrong in any form or by any name, for he taught monogamy, which is a universal eternal natural law, anything else naturally and always destroys society. BY was just another false prophet that has led many astray who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus.

[@sheldonjackson383]

Connor, you’re labouring under the false assumption that by practicing and privately teaching Celestial Polygyny, that Joseph was doing something wrong and nefarious. He was fulfilling his Divine calling to restore all that had been taken away. You seem to ignore that in addition to Brigham, there was John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Eliza R. Snow the Pratt brothers and on and on and on… All these people were intimate contemporaries with Joseph and considering that a significant number were prophets, seers & revelators or apostles, their testimonies are unimpeachable. Joseph restored the order of marriage that is practised in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom: Divine Celestial Polygyny and which is as far removed from corrupt, worldly ‘polygamy’ as is the East from the West.

[@AngelPuff1012]

There is someone I know of that has some mild popularity in this arena of polygamy and Joseph Smith that is at the front of the movement to "prove" Brigham Young and others were behind the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. This person is no longer a member of the church. I'm curious as to why you haven't addressed this dangerous idea. The person I speak of turned from a bright, happy, energetic person full of light and love to very much the contrary. I do thank you for your diligent research and presentation of the facts along with your assessment, but there are some dangerous and apostate ideas floating around this topic that would be awesome to hear you at least infer not being the case. While I understand and agree with much of what you say, there are people using what you say to convince others to go along with the "Who killed JS," crowd.

[@lilliavellino6364]

Most people prefer to believe in pro polygamy prophets, religions or books (scriptures) for it greatly appeals to the natural man, since monogamy is so hard. It seems most people today and throughout history, love, live and support polygamy in some form, whether serial or concurrent polygamy, no matter what name you give it. The strict lifelong monogamy that Jesus taught is rarely really believed in or lived.

[@Telavian]

Polygamy is unprovable one way or the other. Joseph was a criminal though if we want to be specific. During the 1838 Mormon Missouri war he was legally captured and put in Liberty jail. This was because the members were illegally attacking and burning the Missourian's property. The jailer eventually let him illegally escape and he was never tried for those charges. The Missourian's were so upset at the jailer that they killed him. Later in Nauvoo Joseph used his power as mayor and leader of the militia to escape many charges. Joseph may be innocent of polygamy, but he certainly was not an innocent person.

[@jerry_phillips]

So we can accept the Nephi killed Laban as commanded by the Lord but somehow we draw the line that Joseph Smith was keeping plural marriage secret as commanded by the Lord?

[@lilliavellino6364]

Both would be wrong to believe, for both are opposite to what Jesus taught.

[@user-kx4mz9mw4j]

Excellent video. I believe Joseph!

[@Druid75]

Let me save you some time, yes

[@user-hb6ti4ie2o]

Why don’t I see the links Connor said he would put in the description? Someone help me out please :)

[@cboyack]

My mistake, I forgot! Just added it.

[@user-hb6ti4ie2o]

👍🏻

[@likeuntoammon]

Well. Interesting presentation, but I tend to disagree with much of what you said. I have read through a lot of the evidence on both sides as well, and one thing that doesn’t sit well with me is your casual disregard of affidavits given decades later. You literally have to ignore hundreds of, witness statements of good people, men who were prophets and apostles, etc., and salt of the Earth, kind of women in order to subscribe to your position. I think that there is a very faithful explanation to the statements that Joseph made in opposition to the immorality of the bad guys, who were around while he lived, and the charges that were leveled against him, which were often times not an accurate representation of the polygamy that he practiced, and so his statements often times walked a thin line between truth and falsehood, but were technically true.

[@spence1501]

Well stated. I believe joseph!!!

[@jerry_phillips]

It seems you and Michelle Stone have to disqualify many subsequent latter day prophets to get to your position. I can accept that Brigham held some wild theories as anyone is allowed but I’m not about to proclaim a broken succession that somehow links back up after polygamy was ended.

[@jaredshipp9207]

That's exactly what they have to do. Of course, anyone familiar with Michelle Stone how little actual gospel knowledge she has. She doesn't even understand or really believe in the concept of priesthood authority. So naturally a broken line of succcession is no problem for her. But here we have Boyack recommending her and her apostate podcast.

[@EdmundPatak]

But they weren’t consistent. So which of their stories to believe? Lorenzo and Brigham at times pointed the finger at Joseph and then at times claimed that they received a revelation before Joseph ever mentioned anything about polygamy. Woodruff bounced between defending Joseph’s innocence, claiming he didn’t know, then pointing the finger at Brigham.

[@jaredshipp9207]

@EdmundPatak Neither Brigham or Lorenzo ever said anything of the kind. You ex-members/soon-to-be-ex-members really have resorted to just completely making things up.

[@EdmundPatak]

@@jaredshipp9207 If I’m making it up then why is it shown on Brigham’s journal of discourses in volume 18? “We came to Nauvoo, and the Twelve went to England [1839]. While we were in England, I think, the Lord manifested to me by visions and his spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to any persons concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo [1841]. Joseph had never mentioned this, there had never been a thought of it in the Church that I knew anything about at that time. But I had this for myself, and I kept it to myself” Why do Lorenzo’s discourses say the same thing? Am I making that up too? “It was revealed to me [Lorenzo Snow] before the Prophet Joseph Smith explained it to me. I had been on a mission to England between two and three years and before I left England I was perfectly satisfied in regard to something connected with plural marriage.“ (Lorenzo Snow, “Discourse,” Millennial Star 61, no. 35) Lastly, I’ve never been a member of your church. You got so much wrong in your responses. Three strikes total.

[@EdmundPatak]

“We came to Nauvoo, and the Twelve went to England [1839]. While we were in England, I think, the Lord manifested to me by visions and his spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to any persons concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo [1841]. Joseph had never mentioned this, there had never been a thought of it in the Church that I knew anything about at that time. But I had this for myself, and I kept it to myself” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses vol. 18) “It was revealed to me before the Prophet Joseph Smith explained it to me. I had been on a mission to England between two and three years and before I left England I was perfectly satisfied in regard to something connected with plural marriage.“ (Lorenzo Snow, “Discourse,” Millennial Star 61, no. 35)

[@jimoray3]

Maybe I missed it but why would you mention and endorse Michelle Stone and not Bryan Hales?

[@sharonbroadhead4948]

Bryan Hales is sticking with the old narrative and to my knowledge is not looking any further.

[@AmericanFire33]

Maybe you’re right. I think you just made a lot more sense than anything else I’ve ever heard. I’m a big fan of Brigham Young. He had a lot of wives and at least one was a big mistake. I hope the lord gets this all sorted out.

[@grayman7208]

hmm ... another thing trump and smith have in common ... constant false accusations.

[@jonny6man]

Well, it's more like constant lying.

[@grayman7208]

@@jonny6man stupid comment. but the 1st amendment gives you the right to write them.

[@dianeosborn9293]

Love this video. Lots to think about. Question I have been taught that after polygamy was put forward in Nauvoo that Emma no longer attended Relief Society and that Joseph had received thus commandment earlier and refused it but was told he would be removed/killed(?) if he didnt obey. Any thoughts on that?

[@tennisgirl57]

Go watch Michelle Stones podcast 133 problems. She covers all that.

[@Cali-is-top10]

It’s best to look at contemporary records and evidence. That story came out many years later, after Joseph had been killed. People’s memories are not very accurate many years later and are not as good evidence as a memory written down right when it happened.

[@BadAsss_patriot]

Emma led the relief society as part of their attempt to squelch polygamy. It was Joseph and Emma’s desire to teach the women of this abomination because the women kept getting duped by the men. That is one of the MAIN reasons the RS was put together. It was BY that dissembled the RS after their death because he didn’t want Emma speaking to the women against his indulgence that he desired. And then he smeared Emma’s name. The RS was disestablished for 23 years!!! March 8th was the last meeting after the voice of innocence was adopted. This is what BY said: “When I want sisters or the wives of the members of this church to get up a relief society I will summon them to my aid. But until that time let them stay at home and if you see females huddling to stay together veto the concern. And if they say Joseph started it tell them it is a damned lie for I know he never encouraged it.” He pronounced a curse on any man who lets his wives or daughters meet again. (March 9 1845) Isolation is the first step of abuse.

[@jasonsellers56]

@deniseg.9503 I came here to say this, but you already said it better than I could have! 🙏

[@jaredshipp9207]

Hide and watch, Michelle Stone will eventually leave the Church or be excommunicated. It's only a matter of time. Many like her already have. The sifting continues.

[@dovh49]

So, if Brigham is a liar what does that say about the LDS church?

[@crunchymamakat6656]

That it’s false but using a true book (BOM). They’ve transfigured the gospel and added more and less to it which Christ tells us where that comes from.

[@jasonsellers56]

@dovh49 Don't forget that John Taylor (the church's president after Brigham Young) likely murdered Hyrum Smith (watch the documentary "Who Killed Joseph Smith" to learn more about that). With all the dishonesty, unrighteous dominion, adultery, and murder going on, how could the priesthood keys have been passed down to the current leaders of the church? Especially with the Lord's own words in Doctrine and Covenants 124: 31-32, saying that He would reject them as a church if they didn't complete the Nauvoo temple in the time He allotted them (spoiler alert: they didn't), how can anyone think that the church today has the priesthood keys? Is it any wonder, then, why there have been no new revelations or words from the Lord since Joseph and Hyrum were murdered? The church is in a state of apostasy, and will continue to be until its leaders and general membership repents by *confessing* that polygamy, the priesthood ban, blood atonement, the shutdown of churches and temples, and so much more, were always wrong, and resolve to *forsake* those wrongs forever. Until then, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is like any other Christian church: in possession of some truths, but no light, and therefore left to slowly feel its way through the dark.

[@ppldave]

It means Prophets are infallible and can sin.

[@FleeingBabylon-Now]

@@crunchymamakat6656 exactly

[@lilliavellino6364]

@@ppldave Thus why Jesus taught not to follow prophets (or formal religions), for none are perfect and will often be wrong or fall and always lead people astray, no matter how sincere. The BoM has many wonderful truths in it, but also teaches many things contrary to the teachings of Christ. .

[@southwestrunner6384]

Conner I’ve followed your work for a very long time- and have been a great supporter I’m starting to wonder what your goal is with this series of “musing videos” You said in this video: Brigham Young was “behind the Mountain Meadows Massacre” And that he “started Polygamy for his own purposes” And that “polygamy isn’t scriptural” I full well know that all the cool kids hate Brigham Young these days…and blaming everything on him is in fashion And there are many “sides” to “facts” around these topics But ….Bro What’s the point of your “musings”? Are they strengthening faith? Are they bringing people closer to God? Or is it a vehicle for you to prove how wise you are? Your sarcastic voice inflections about stuff that honestly no one can prove almost 200 years later- make you sound like a pompous ex-mo What’s the goal Conner? No one is smarter than you? “you have studied it out- and figured it all out”? BY was a genocidial liar & womanizer? What’s the fruit of your efforts Conner? What’s the goal here?

[@southwestrunner6384]

@@eeka2466- ah yes…I was waiting for a response like this Sorry to disappoint- but I have “known about” all the stuff Conner talked about for roughly 30 years Comments like yours are one of the reasons why social media is such a toxic cesspool of negativity You- know absolutely zero about me, my mindset, my educational, religious or any other of my background And yet- you have based your entire comment upon what you assume I’m thinking Bravo 🙌

[@southwestrunner6384]

I haven’t deleted any of my comments- you are once again proving why social media is so toxic Show me the “deleted” posts It doesn’t exist “Editing” a post also means you are correcting it for grammatical errors…duh Jumping to hysterical conclusions again… Because I haven’t deleted anything Conner publicly posts- he can be publicly questioned He’s a big boy and well suited to defend himself You didn’t even read my post- I’ve been a fan of his for well over 15 years- probably 20 I’ve donated to his organization in the past- I have been a fan- take a deep breath You are in over your head because I called out your screeching emotional rant

[@jaredshipp9207]

I'm convinced Conner is on his way out of the Church. Its clear he basically thinks Brigham Young was, at best, a fallen prophet, or at worst, a tyrant. Conner has basically become enamored with his own learning and that pride will be his downfall. Like someone else said, members who go down this road don't last. He'll be no different.

[@southwestrunner6384]

@@jaredshipp9207- sure looks like the fruits of his once scholarly and measured work is leaning to one direction To cause dissent, division and doubt- and point to his “clearly superior intellect”

[@charisecarlson]

The goal, if we take him at his word, is to critically ask who is a more credible source, JS or BY? It sounds like you are saying it’s okay to seek truth, but not when it’s about BY, because the truth about BY can lead to faith crises. I think what helps with that is to have Christ as the foundation of our faith, and to be okay with the fact that church leaders have acted imperfectly. Not that their actions are okay, but that it won’t shake our faith in Christ. I don’t think the answer is to shame people who point out that two early prophets said things that can’t both be true, so one of them is lying.

[@ranteumptom7345]

I’ve not seen many who go down this path who remain faithful to the church.

[@jasonsellers56]

Good. We're not supposed to remain faithful to the church. We're supposed to remain faithful to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The church is a sandy foundation to build your life on, but only Jesus Christ is the rock, and He will never lead you astray.

[@ranteumptom7345]

@@jasonsellers56 I will remain faithful to the bride of Christ even with all her flaws. If Christ will not abandon his bride, I will follow his example. Even if Brigham brought polygamy into the church in error, I do not believe Christ would abandon them and saw fit to correct the doctrine (if there was need for correction). I believe the priesthood keys bestowed upon the 12 by Joseph have come down in an unbroken line to Pres. Nelson. Otherwise the church is not only in partial apostasy (which may be corrected) but it is in complete apostasy without priesthood authority, which would require another restoration. But Joseph was promised that those keys would never be taken again from the earth.

[@WalterReade]

@@ranteumptom7345 I do wonder what the folks who think the Church has strayed think we're supposed to do about it.

[@jasonsellers56]

@WalterReade Simple: Follow Jesus Christ. Trust Him. Listen to His Spirit. If He tells you to stay in the mainstream LDS church (as He has with me), then stay. If He tells you leave, then leave. Why should this be a difficult concept?

[@ranteumptom7345]

@@jasonsellers56 does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints hold the authority and keys today that were bestowed upon Joseph Smith by angelic ministers, who were previous stewards of those keys and heads of dispensations? Do those keys reside with the Quorum of the 12 and First Presidency as currently constituted?

[@Brandon-Is-Not-Fooled]

Joseph wouldnt be cleared from the law of the land in today's society. Thats for sure. Times were diff back then. Constituionality was a lot more followed back then compared to now.

[@jaredshipp9207]

There is really no "debate" in the Church. The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage. Individual members wrote about it in their own journals. But because there are some who simply can't handle the issue, yet still want to appear true to the Restoration, they've taken it upon themselves to rewrite history by claiming Joseph never practiced it and that it was an invention by Brigham and his successors. In claiming this, they're essentially saying the Church has been in apostasy since Joseph's death and, ironically enough, they cut the ground out from under themselves since that leaves no living Church with a prophet, apostles, and priesthood keys on the earth. Or, even more absurdly, that the Church and it's authority somehow still exist but it has been under wholesale condemnation since then. In reality, all they are doing is repeated the age-old pattern of building monuments to past prophets while rejecting current ones. They've essentially become the LDS version of Protestants, where they are essentially left alone with themselves, their own interpretation of scripture, and their own feigned belief in a god in their own image. It's also a recycling of old arguments by the RLDS church. Left unchecked, most of these members won't last and will eventually find themselves cut off from the Lord and His Church one way or another. Examples are plenty within this video's comments. Seems Connor is on that same shaky path. Unfortunately, I can't say I'm surprised. I've seen hints of it coming for a while.

[@dougknighton5348]

Your comment didn't address a single piece of evidence presented in this video.

[@jaredshipp9207]

@dougknighton5348 I could spend several hours presenting evidence that's been available to all for decades, but it would prove fruitless because this really isn't about evidence. It's about people wanting plural marriage to not have been practiced by the Prophet of the Restoration while still feigning belief in his calling. A futile endeavor, to be sure. For them, it's about emotion and their spiritual immaturity. Not evidence. No matter how much Conner wants to use courtroom analogies.

[@dougknighton5348]

@@jaredshipp9207 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Peace out.

[@jaredshipp9207]

@dougknighton5348 "There is no salvation between the two lids of the Bible without a legal administrator." - Joseph Smith Question: Can we not we be saved without going through with all these ordinances? Joseph Smith replied: "No, not the fulness of salvation." "I will give you a key that will never rust. If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray." - Joseph Smith

[@dougknighton5348]

@@jaredshipp9207 those are interesting quotes. Do you have the references? You are now quoting Joseph. What do you have to say about the verifiable and undeniable public statements from Joseph saying he was not practicing or teaching polygamy or anything like it?