Joseph Smith's Gold Plates

[@stevenhamblin6067]

This is a question for Richard Bushman. What do you think of the Mt. Ebal curse tablet found and anounced back in March 2022? This discovery is a small lead ancient Hebrew inscription found at the sacrificial site on Mt. Ebal mentioned in Deut. 27:4-15. This supports the idea that metal sheets were used to write sacred words in Moses day. Also the Dead Sea Copper Scroll (3Q15) is a historical record which is more extensive which describes a hiding place and the treasure to be found also written in Hebrew on thin copper sheets. In addition Job 19:25 describes writing on lead. As a historian wouldn't these be applicable to your discussion with Joseph Smith's gold plates as examples supporting ancient record keeping?

[@doctorstotrust]

Dr Bushman gives several great examples of the historical context around the Prophet Joseph Smith that are new to me and testimony strengthening. He is a courageous historian and a real treasure to the church.

[@azxtra8381]

I read "Rough Stone Rolling" after I read "In Sacred Loneliness." Both opened my eyes to how human these early Mormons were and how their faith and testimonies helped them overcome everything. I remember the Golden Plates primary song we used to sing in church. I enjoyed listening to Dr. Bushman discuss several times how the "sources" don't contain enough information to draw a precise conclusion to some arguments. It's the only honest thing a true historian can do. However, the golden plates that Joseph received were quite the "source" and were not lacking in information or arguments for salvation. Speaking of Golden Plates and Brother Bushman, Hugh Nibley mentioned him in his BYU Book of Mormon class, Semester 1, Lecture 2: "Incidentally, at that very time (the generation that Lehi was living) was the time that Reformed Egyptian (Demotic) became the official government language. In the twenty-sixth dynasty, the time of Semiticus II and of Lehi, it became the official way of writing. It was this new reformed type of Egyptian known as Demotic. And at the very same time, the priests who used to be in the former royal court at Napata fled farther to Meroë. There they produced a new type of Egyptian at this time which was Meroitic (I've got a picture of it here). When you compare the Anthon transcripts with Meroitic, it's very impressive. In fact, Brother Bushman back at Brown University (which is one of the four universities in the country where Egyptian has always been a big thing), showed them the Anthon transcript, and Parker immediately recognized them as Meroitic. He said, "They're the closest thing you can get to Meroitic." We may not have the plates with us now, but we have some of the original characters. Thank you to Brother Bushman for showing them to fellow professor Richard Parker (Egyptology).

[@StandforTruth712]

Rough Stone Rolling has destroyed the faith of 1000s of members. It nearly destroyed mine until I read thw Stoddard books, "Faith Crisis 1 We were not Betrayed" "Faith Crisis#2 Behind Closed Doors" and "Seer Stone vs U&T." Attorney and Historian Jonathan Neville and Jame Lucas's work "By Means of the Urim and Thummin" is another well researched book that investigates the historical record well beyond what Bushman ever did. In an interview with anti Mormon John Dehlin, the most influential anti mormon youtuber saud he lost his faith at Harvard and never fully recovered. Dehlin loves Rough Stone Rolling and actively uses it to destroy peoples faith and then offers counseling services for a fee to help his victims deprogram their mormonism brainwashing.

[@lukegraven7839]

The plates are made up never existed. Really guys an angel took em away ? That’s a fairy tale. Look at the ‘Caracters’ by JS …it’s just a silly dude embellishing our Latin script w swirls to the letters and saying it’s a language - it’s a con job.

[@paultoscano7903]

I have thought for some time that Joseph Smith’s first vision experience in the sacred grove was his endowment to the fullness of the priesthood (later offered to all Latter-day Saints through the temple rituals). As such, it is analogous to the storied experiences of Abraham on Mount Moriah or of Moses on Mount Sinai. It seems to me that the golden plates, retrieved from the hill Cumorah, rested on four small stone pillars in that stone box. Under them was the breast plate of the high priest. Also in the box were the rod of Aaron (a branch of the almond tree that had been represented by the menorah in the Holy of holies) and the Urim and Thummim (interpreters). This entire collection of artifacts and their arrangement appears to be an abridged tabernacle or at least a holy of holies in miniature. Dr. Bushman mentions that the golden plates are suggestive of the golden Ark of the Covenant. Both the Ark and the plates contain the word of God. It is also suggestive that the plates, as an abridgment of the record of the Nephites appearing as they do in an abridgment of the tabernacle or holy of holies, signals that the book of Mormon may contain not just a story of a people but more importantly a hidden mystery or a range of hidden mysteries within the parts of the story selected by Mormon to appear in the abridgment of the Nephite record. I agree with Dr. Bushman that the plates signify the existence of a reality that is neither entirely material or entirely immaterial. In this regard, the plates fit the pattern of apports-physical manifestations from the unseen world.

[@bjjensen1916]

I think you should look at what all the witnesses said, what prophets have revealed and spiritual testimonies having followed Moroni's invitation to pray abt the truthfulness...

[@danite620]

This was a wonderful interview . I could listen to Professor Bushman all day long . So smart .

[@leonardjwalker3717]

Boring scholarly stuff, I like to feel the spirit when gospel is discussed.

[@DiffQ_Bro]

Bushman's a great man.

[@brentmelander7740]

Scott Gordon someone is pulling your leg😂... metalic gold paint was indeed around in 1830 so was real gold leaf... infact they were manufactured by suppliers from ancient civilizations... yes paints were modified and modernized... when oils were found to be superior carriers of powderd pigments😊for the last 500 years... including driers and accelerates as mediums to paint.... But paint was never used on gold plates just the buggies and wagons etc😮

[@MarkHigbee]

Respectfully: Joseph Smith was not a treasure digger. Had you bothered to read his account in the History of the Church, you would know where this false idea came from. Why do you ignore Joseph Smith's own account? Was he a liar in your estimation?

[@TheJanesaw]

This is very puzzling, sometimes bushman speaks with strong testimony and belief and then moves to a secular point of view and gives credence to anti publications like Mormonism unveiled (the first anti book). I think of him much like the apocrypha, it’s good but one has to have the spirit to discern the good from the bad.

[@kentmattingley1792]

Bro. Bushman is a professional historian. As such, he must be neutral in regards to the history of the Church, so this is why he sounds like both a believer and a neutral or nonbeliever. But he is most definitely a believer. As am I.

[@TheJanesaw]

@@kentmattingley1792 agree except the word “must” be neutral, he doesn’t have to be neutral he is choosing to do so. Also honest questions: do you believe Joseph sent Martin to New York to find help to translate? The smiths were obsessed with treasure ? And Joseph believed that spirits guarded treasures and one would have to oblige these spirits to find those treasures? Lastly,do you know where rough stone rolling came from and why it was published under that name and not the original name published from the church? I don’t know a single person who has lost their testimony reading marvelous work and wonder or Jesus the Christ but know personally several after they read rough stone rolling. I reiterate bushman’s approach is apocryphal, you have to sift thru it to find the special gems of truth and discard other parts.

[@leonardjwalker3717]

@@kentmattingley1792 No he does not. But he does if he wants to make money.

[@jeremycollins1068]

Without the spirit of prophecy, all you’re left with is the philosophies of men and the eroding faith of too many members who listen. By their fruits ye shall know them. I’m not a fan by any stretch of the imagination of Bushman.

[@kentmattingley1792]

Yes, I know all of that history, and how/what Bushman thinks about it. I've studied about the Church and church history for over 60 years. I've never questioned or doubled the truthfulness of the Church or the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. The Church is true; the church members are imperfect, but it grows and grows, and will fill the whole earth.

[@lukegraven7839]

If you can’t provide the plates then they don’t count. If you believe some Angel took em back then well you’ll believe anything - like man living on moon …oh wait bad example lol. I mean there’s a reason why membership is dropping like a rock.

[@azxtra8381]

We don't have the Ark of the Covenant or the original Ten Commandments written by the finger of God, but nobody has problems believing them.

[@lukegraven7839]

@@azxtra8381 That is actually a really good point. I would say the main difference is a lot of the things talked about (though much is also made up) in the Bible have historical evidence, yet there's no evidence at all for the BoM so taken together is seems like a fraud.

[@kentmattingley1792]

We have the testimonies of the 3 and the 8 official witnesses, as well as several others who also left accounts of seeing the plates and Moroni. Most of these witnesses left the Church at some point, but none ever denied their testimonies, at least one of whom bore his testimony staring down the barrel of a rifle, the owner of which rifle had told him he would die if he didn't deny he saw the plates and angel. The Lord said that the truth should be established by the mouth of two or three witnesses. That's good enough for me. You're mistaken about the membership dropping like a rock. We are the only Christian church that I'm aware of that's growing, mostly in Africa and South America, but it is growing. Growth slowed a lot due the pandemic, but has picked up over the past year. What's necessary for having a testimony is not having the plates, but a sincere desire to know the truth, praying with faith to God the Father in the name of Christ, then the truth will be made known to you the by the power of the Holy Ghost. In the name of Christ, amen.

[@michaelhutchings6602]

>I mean there’s a reason why membership is dropping like a rock. This claim is always repeated but no evidence is ever presented beyond anecdotes. Anti-Mormon NPC programming needs a new update.

[@jss1724]

"If you can't provide Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, the Savior Himself, the Apostles, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, etc., ad nauseum, then they don't count"...