Joss Whedon's Astonishing X Men comic book retrospective, part one

Joe Corallo stops by to offer a retrospective on one of the biggest X-Men launches of the last 25 years: Astonishing X-Men. It was also the arrival of "cannot miss" Joss Whedon to the Marvel universe. At this point the X-Men line was coming off of Grant Morrison's run, which Marvel had believed was isolating to fans and Whedon was at the top of his game of being the man who could do no wrong when it came to "nerd comic book culture". So how did this game-changing book come out over time? Part one of a two part series looking at this book, and the man behind it.

[@cosmicbae473]

Joss Is A Creative Genius. From Toy Story to Buffy to SErenity to Avengers.

[@Benm701]

I would love to see a video like this on Hickman's run on Marvel (Secret Warriors, Fantastic Four/FF, Avengers/New Avengers, etc).

[@kyleweaver2578]

That would take him like 10 years

[@BookofCommonTerror]

I second this.

[@rhinocore]

The last great Marvel epic.

[@AL-ws5yi]

I started with Claremont’s run on X-men. And I followed it all the way till Morrison’s run and somewhere on Morrison’s run (probably when Cyclops had an “affair” with Frost) I dropped out. I heard about Joss Whedon’s run but I was no longer interested by then.

[@TheNickcone]

I started with the complete Claremont run with spin offs included and it spoiled me. It was one of my first comics and it took me a bit to realize not every comic was like it. Out of all three runs I feel like this was the weakest, although I enjoy it.

[@sensei-lr4cj]

JW's Astonishing xmen is pretty isolated and self contained. Probably the exact opposite of Morrison's run and it's super fun. Check it out if you can, you won't regret it.

[@isaacmendes1926]

​@@sensei-lr4cj i wish these self contained runs were more common, i loved reading Whedon's run.

[@joshua788]

I love these lengthy and in depth takes on classic modern comic runs. I think these are your best series yet. So far, I have fond memories of every series you have brought up. Yet with this and Cap, it makes me realize some parts that could have been better but there were still some cool elements to each. I know these are more critical takes, but I walk away happy every time. It makes me really think back, read, and enjoy conversations with others. Excellent content as always!

[@DialetoNerd]

I loveeeeee Joss X-men 🤩🤩🤩

[@johnnyburger7409]

None of Stan Lee’s Mutants were particularly ugly. He just wanted a way to give people powers without having to come up with a scientific explanation each time.

[@DrLynch2009]

Seen you guy mention Morrison so much, can you do one of this videos of his JLA run?

[@ComicsPerch]

Yep, can do.

[@panthergod]

@@ComicsPerch yes.. along with flex, dc one million, all star, and final crisis, etc are a giant hypersigil mega arc. ..

[@23paul52]

Man i'm shocked on how much information you put in just one video! Like seriously this is so awesome...you should definetely do it again

[@ComicsPerch]

Part two tomorrow!

[@MisogynyMan]

Was just thinking that Perch need to roll out even more content from the Perch factory, so I have something to listen to in the background while gaming. Was running out, I must have heard every thing from the last 6-9 months. He must have heard my thoughts. Perch don't look too deep, you might see things that will scar you. Edit: I'm only listening until the 10th time you go YAAAH.

[@ericd.5206]

These long-form retrospective vids are seriously excellent work; as long as you and Joe enjoy doing them, please keep at it. I've not read Whedon's X-Men run; was totally checked out of the big two during this time.

[@galactica1981]

I really enjoyed Astonishing X-Men. I hadn't read the X-Men since 1991 and only came back because Joss Whedon was the writer. Maybe having been away for so long helped me enjoy it more. But it was fun to hear you guys poke fun at it.

[@astrolabe1976]

Same for me, I dropped out around 94, the X Books were never really the same after Claremont leaving I love Joss Whedons run, different strokes for different folks I guess

[@doyscherr]

I don't remember another X-men title selling during Whedon's run.

[@Alex-yx5qh]

Claremonts uncanny was selling well I think

[@TevyaSmolka]

Ooh awesome

[@isuriadireja91]

by the way... i think this run of his PLUS John Cassaday's superb artwork is one of the best comic book runs ever...specifically for X-Men.

[@viniciusbenettigennari]

This was a ton of fun! Thanks for another cool recap, Perch and Joe! I hope you guys do the JSA one somebody else suggested here in the comments.

[@jcoral1]

So glad you liked it! We have a bunch of ideas and even more now from all the suggestions, so this will likely keep us all busy (and reading) for a while. Hopefully we can kind of balance out the big 2 and throw some indies/manga in as well. I know Akira would be on my list, and then maybe we should do something completely out of left field like Space Beavers.

[@missinglynks]

Y'all don't remember in Fatal Attractions when Colossus become one of Magneto's main Acolyte's? To say he isn't a character of rage... for the most part, yes. People have moments in life where a certain event or situation makes them act out of character. What's with the Joss Whedon hate lately?

[@haniflawson9225]

He’s an easy target, I guess. Not just for his personal life, but his distinct style. I find most writers with a specific style catch some flack sooner or later. Aaron Sorkin’s a good example.

[@TheOnslaught616]

Didn’t AOA Colossus crush Kitty by accident in a fit of rage?

[@missinglynks]

I'm here for this, Perch! I am VERY fond of Grant Morrisons New X-Men and Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.

[@ComicsPerch]

Well, I hope you don’t mind us not being entirely favorable... I’m glad you’re giving it a shot...

[@DrLynch2009]

@@ComicsPerch Your honesty is why we are here Perch.

[@missinglynks]

@@ComicsPerch I don't mind minor nitpicking or critiquing. Doesn't take away the greatness or my love for this series. Great video!

[@sensei-lr4cj]

Man I loved this run. Thanks for the informative video.

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

I thought the furor over Black Widow describing herself as a monster was misplaced. I didn't take it to mean she was a monster because she couldn't have kids, but rather that her training to become a killer was so complete that even her ability to create new life was removed. She was supposed to be nothing more than a killing machine. The Hulk became a monster on accident. Black Widow was purposefully turned into a monster. Oh, and I think Morrison did it, but Cat-man Beast is just awful in my opinion. How does it make sense for him to go from a gorilla man to a lion man?

[@jcoral1]

I agree, the Black Widow outrage was over the top. And yeah, Morrison introduced those secondary mutations like catman Beast and crystal Emma which was done cause he couldn't use Colossus. I like Grant's run, but the secondary mutation stuff I think ended up sounding good on paper but wasn't executed the best.

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

@@jcoral1 I think the secondary mutations is fine as a concept, but both catman Beast and crystal Emma don't strike me as logical extensions of the initial power sets. It'd be like giving Wolverine wings. Crystal Emma makes more sense as a fill in for Colossus, though. I was out of comics during that era, so I have to wonder what crucial plot point Morrison had in mind that required a person turning into a some really hard substance.

[@jcoral1]

@@Off-Brand_Devin For sure. I think House of M also kneecapped a lot of the potential you could of gotten from secondary mutations as a story device too.

[@mshankute]

This was my first modern X-men comic. I think I was 12 when this came out. Obviously I feel a bit differently about this run because of nostalgia, but You guys had a solid analysis here. Makes me wanna re read it and see how it holds up

[@brion0220]

I remember looking forward to this series and really enjoying the first few issues, but then I got bored with it quickly. I still brought the issues, and was going to wait till whole arcs were completed before I read it. Which I may have done till issue #12 - but for the life of me, I cant remember what happened in it. On the other hand - re: Morrison's New X-Men, I enjoyed that series immensely. I remember at the time everyone complaining about Igor Kordey's art ruining the series - but I just loved his art.

[@chwatism2598]

Danger was just a retread of what happened with cerebro about 5 years earlier. I've enjoyed most of this run as I pick them out of dollar bins.

[@chwatism2598]

Maybe current writers could make the next villain 'X-Jet' or 'Wolverine's Motorcycle'

[@TheNickcone]

Lol I can see that happening sadly. Yeah that was the weakest part of the run imo and you're right.

[@DM-en7hk]

Idea for next one: either Uncanny X-force or Uncanny Avengers

[@derekgreen7319]

I don't see how anyone could think this is better than the Morrison run at anytime.

[@TheNickcone]

Yeah I enjoy this run but it doesn't hold up as well as I remember. The dialogue while initially fun gets old and cliche. The way they brought back colossus ,whom I love, wasn't great. I enjoy the ending arc and excluding that I never felt like much happened. I will say outside of Morrisons run its one of the best X men runs in recent history. And the x cyclops and Emma frost relationship is great and I prefer this to his relationship with Jean grey. The characterizations were the strength of this run.

[@kieran118]

Really like these long, collaborative retrospectives. Would like to see more, maybe even for some non-Big 2 comics?

[@jcoral1]

Glad you like these! We definitely have some more ideas planned and have thought of some non-Big 2 comics we could do as well.

[@TheNickcone]

Wildstorm? Maybe

[@jcoral1]

@@TheNickcone I know Perch and I both like Planetary. I really liked Authority too. If we figured out the right angle for it it's something we'd probably get to.

[@andrewduitsman3918]

Wow this seems crazy. I remember liking this run but your recap made me wonder if it was for silly this is better than Chuck Austen reasons. You mentioned Endsong and Warsong. I do remember reading Endsong and thinking wow what a great new chapter of the Phoenix, kind of nostalgic and new at the same time. Then reading Warsong and thinking never mind this is a train wreck. Then AvX came out and it became the most powerful force in the galaxy that consumes worlds and in uncontrollable can be everyone's friend for a little while.

[@thrawncaedusl717]

I know I’m late, but I have to comment on Cassaday’s art. This series (combined with another one that showed it being done poorly) made me realize that the closest comparison for a comic book artist is a film director. The artist determines the pacing and emotion of the scene. Cassaday’s panels where only one or two things change (or even nothing changes, like when Kitty is considering talking to Collosus in Torn) draws attention to that scene while kind of slowing down the book. I absolutely love it and wish more artists were willing to pace their books like that (though admittedly to work it does require excellent facial emoting work by the artist, which Cassaday excels at. To continue to stretch the director comparison, Cassaday’s art would win Emma Frost an Oscar with the subtle characterization).

[@doyscherr]

"I don't get gang raped on the first date." That sounds like something Warren Ellis wrote in City of Silence. Speaking if which, Warren Ellis picked up Astonishing X-men from Whedon. Do you think Warren Ellis had stricter orders from thr publisher?

[@ComicsPerch]

I would say 100%.

[@brandenwalton2914]

Any suggestions for a X-Men reading order from before the modern era, i.e everything leading up to Morrison's run?

[@TheDanken07]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHKWpJ-imMujp7M&ab_channel=NearMintCondition Near Mint Condition has great reading order in omnibus format. He is also planning to release complete reading order on all X titles

[@pauldareason]

oddly enough after Claremont Wheldon's take on the X-Men was one of my favorites. morrisons X-Men were fair more out of character to me most of the run seemed like being edgy was more important than likeable characters.

[@millernumber1]

Well. I think a lot of the stuff you folk think is stupid is more just...fun. There are problems, for sure, but I think the strength of the characterization and the themes carry it through. You clearly have a lot of love for the Morrison run, but that one really loved to have weird new voices and bizarre behavior for the X-Men, not to mention it ALSO threw away everything before it.

[@missinglynks]

Well said

[@mikeychainsaw9760]

Any links to where I can watching all 4 astonishing x-men film's?

[@dondraper3898]

I watched this video for the 4th time. Those editorial clips... while they aren't the foundation of what makes this recipe great, they are key ingredient. *6:52 You can't mention Kevin Smith without me mentioning the story I have about a certain Vulgarthon a friend of mine dragged me to which would have ended with my buddy getting his ass kicked in by Kevin Smith's mom if Kevin's dad wasn't there to stop it. Embarrassing to be there at the time but the memory was worth it.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

went through the first 12 issues now, like it more than you guys do but not as much as my work friend that lent me the first 2 vol lol

[@realityshifter3399]

Guys, if you couldn't offer a good faith retrospective on Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-men, it's better that you just don't come back to it at all. Seriously, your complaint is that Colossus is out of character because he wanted payback after being tortured for God knows how long? But I forgot Colossus would never do that because comic book characters should remain static regardless of the context.

[@TheJoec2005]

They need to do more movies like this

[@31altair]

Not to be rude or anything but I don't put much into #1 sales. Black Cat was Junes best seller but that doesn't make it the next Kravens last hunt, Then you have Jim Lee X men #1 story etc. etc.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

finished the first 6 issue arc and its a 6/10 or so

[@derekgreen7319]

You should do invincible or the walking dead

[@jasper2572]

I'm thirteen issues into his run and I'm conflicted I like the plot for the most part but I don't like the dialogue epically for beast and Wolverine.

[@MrChapmanification]

God I miss the Xmen having personalities and cyclops being likeable. Hickman is a good writer thematically but he literally removes any sense of humanity and any sort of distinct personalities that characters have.

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

So what superhero movie do you think you guys are doing next?

[@ComicsPerch]

Superman 2.

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

@@ComicsPerch I can't find your Superman 1 review in your video history but I have the impression it was a couple months ago and you've done a few comic run reviews since then. I dunno, you started doing both around the same time and I had the impression at the time both would be about equally frequent.

[@MisogynyMan]

@@theinvisibleskulk4563 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYmTiJqjicqBqac

[@derekgreen7319]

I'd be surprised if you guys praise this run.

[@realityshifter3399]

Praise? All they did was b*tch and complain about it.

[@jefffu3820]

I stopped reading X-Men when Joss Whedon started writing these titles. I hate how everything he writes feels like high school. It makes the characters feel petty, and the events feels inconsequential. He turns everything he touches into Buffy.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

I thought Astonishing was good though not great. The delays between issues made it feel unessential and disconnected from the rest of the line.

[@sensei-lr4cj]

Agreed. It was such a great book for newer fans too. Plus, Cyclops and Emma were amazing.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

I actually preferred the Scott/Emma pairing. It was a much more interesting dynamic.

[@VonDEWS]

I usually agree with most of stuff you said in your videos, but this time... well, I think both of you don t understant the whole run... all mocking you did up everything was explained during the run... about Colossus, about Hellfire Club, about everything... you did read thar wrong... I'm sorry but that joking review doesn't fits with the book... I'm really desapointed with it... but I keep liking the rest of channel's videos. Just respect others person's work... looks like you just dont understand that, reread the whole thing, paying attention.. sorry if I seem gross

[@VonDEWS]

Blindfold, Armor and Wing are all Whedons creation by the way

[@madhavpatel1577]

The New X-Men Omnibus by Grant Morrison was the first X-Men comic I've ever read. It was the worst shit I had ever read and really turned me off of X-Men. I picked up the astonishing X-men omnibus and I really loved it. It even made me like the morrison run.

[@panthergod]

Laughable opinion. Morrison made x-men relevant again

[@DrLynch2009]

I feel sorry for you. Morrison run is the worst way to get into the X-Men.

[@panthergod]

@@DrLynch2009 Since I actually grasp good storytelling and actually know and like these characters, I dont have a problem with one of the greatest writers in comics definitive runs. Magneto aside there is NOTHING wrong with this run.

[@justaregularguy1118]

@@panthergod lol appeal to authority isnt a good argument. Try staying off reddit next time.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

Morrison brought new energy and ideas to X-Men but I'm one of those people who thinks his run was overrated. I don't think it was bad, but I think it made the X-Men too big (in universe) and negating the core of what the X-Men were. It was definitely great when compared to what Chuck Austen was doing in Uncanny at the time.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

better or worse than chuck austin?

[@BirdNerd375]

After listening to all your “respectives”, here is a thought... Why don’t you cover an X-men run that you actually enjoy. Even if it’s Claremont’s omnibus Vol. 1. One of your latest videos criticized “bigots”... and in my opinion, you are an X-men bigot. Not blaming you for it, as I am too. But we should (1) stop judging the success of comics based on sales. Piracy has been a problem for comics since the early 2000’s. Unfortunately, sales no longer dictate the success of comic runs. How marvel chooses which writers are successful in this day in age is beyond me. Second (2), new readers have the internet at their disposal. Like smart consumers, they should invest time to research what comics are worth their money. Not to mention, a lot of old-timers don’t have much good to say about modern X runs (give and take House of M, Hickman, some X-Force runs, personal favorites, etc.) so who can blame readers for not buying specific trades when they are overwhelmed with poor reviews. I will never defend runs like New X-men, astonishing, or Hickman, etc, but I challenge you to say something positive in your retrospects. Encourage readers to engage these tales and create their own opinion instead of discouraging readers from never picking up these lines. ^ I strongly believe the X community will be stronger if we can learn to highlight the good moments as much as the negative ones.

[@isuriadireja91]

wtf's wrong with u guys..?? i think all the shit SURROUNDING Whedon that's got NOTHING to do with his Astonishing X-Men run heavily influenced your perception towards it. it'd be better for a review or analysis on comic books to actually just STICK TO the COMIC BOOKS. Joss might be a creep as a person (tho I won't say it myself since I don't personally know the guy)..but, his work should be judged or analyzed on its own merits without any personal stuff influencing it.

[@realityshifter3399]

Exactly, they might as well not have reviewed it if they couldn't be fair to it.

[@hanng1242]

When it comes to Joss Wheedon, do not let your teenage daughter anywhere near him - especially if she has pretty feet.

[@thehacker4012]

I think you are getting Joss confused with Dan Schneider.

[@jeffwinbush5039]

Saving the entire planet from the Breakworld Bullet isn't heroic? Besides dumping on Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men, what is the POINT here? If you and Joe Corallo are going to trash dialogue you thought was overwritten and aged badly, why not SHOW those pages while you're ripping it? The images in the video don't come close to matching the commentary. If you're going to rip Whedon's writing, at least SHOW the pages where the dialogue is being spoken. I know the production values of these videos is next to nothing, but for anyone who hasn't read Astonishing X-Men already, they would have NO idea what you two are talking about! That's just lazy. The first part of the video that explained how Whedon and Cassady came together was interesting because it provided some inside information and knowledge that I wasn't aware of. The Avengers: Age of Ultron stuff was a little less so because Whedon's fights with Marvel execs meddling with the film is well-known and it provided some context for what he tried to infuse into his own X-Men story, but then the critique started and it just got boring. I have never understood why with so many comics out there that deserve more attention, guys like you, Joe Corallo, Thinking Critical and others expend so much effort to say, "Ermigawd, this is so awful bad terrible no good and nobody should be caught dead reading it." Negativity sells. It's better for clicks and likes, so let's trash something. I get it. But if crapping on something because in parts it may be muddled or out of continuity or hasn't aged well, that seems counter-productive to the idea that you guys are here because you love and support comic books. Astonishing X-Men was a brief moment in the long history of these characters and some parts work better than others, but it is STILL one of my favorite runs of the title and I would recommend it to any newbie who wants to jump into the X-Men and not have to wade through decades of continuity and characterization. I can't rock with this commentary Perch, as it went right off the rails and turned into a total trainwreck.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

age of ultron woulda been alot better if ultron himself was either consistant goofy or serious instead of the swapping shit

[@thehacker4012]

You do realize that villains can be different personality traits, right? They don't have either all serious or all goofy.

[@dragonballtalk8527]

Joss Wheaton bullied poor spike from Buffy and that ain't cool

[@jacobgonzales483]

I heard people were trying to use this series for the new Disney x-men and I say that is complete trash. Joss Wheaton is trash and I won’t be watching. The team and story is horrible

[@BookofCommonTerror]

Just wanted to let you know, 6 episodes in, that it’s been pretty great. It’s primarily been Claremont adaptations with a bit of one Morrison story. But it feels and looks like the first 5 seasons of the animated series and it’s been really enjoyable. It’s your call, of course, but I’ve been looking forward to each new episode!