Julian Jaynes, the Bicameral Mind, and the Origin of Consciousness | Interview with Marcel Kuijsten

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"Julian Jaynes, the Bicameral Mind, and the Origin of Consciousness," an interview with JJS Founder Marcel Kuijsten by Henrik Palmgren. To listen to the full 100-minute interview and many other interviews and lectures on Julian Jaynes's theory, please join the Julian Jaynes Society: www.julianjaynes.org​.
Includes discussion of the problem of consciousness, what is consciousness is and is not according to Julian Jaynes, the importance of metaphorical language and writing, features of consciousness, Nicholas Humphrey's research on cave art and autism, evidence from the Iliad, ancient bicameral civilizations, the Thera explosion and ensuing tsunami, and Michael Carr's research on the bicameral mind in China. In the second hour, Marcel Kuijsten discusses the role of drugs, entheogens, hallucinogens in eliciting bicameral hallucinations, the importance of dreams in documenting the transition from bicamerality to consciousness, the origin of religion and the bicameral mind, and more. Also discussed is the significance to the theory of religious figures like Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, to more modern people like William Blake, Emanuel Swedenborg and Joseph Smith.
Read Marcel Kuijsten's books on Julian Jaynes's theory:
"Conversations on Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind: Interviews with Leading Thinkers on Julian Jaynes's Theory" - www.amazon.com/gp/product/173...
"Gods, Voices, and the Bicameral Mind: The Theories of Julian Jaynes" - www.amazon.com/Gods-Voices-Bi...
"The Julian Jaynes Collection" - www.amazon.com/Julian-Jaynes-...
"Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited" -
www.amazon.com/Reflections-Daw...
Learn more: www.julianjaynes.org​
Join the Julian Jaynes Society: www.julianjaynes.org/join/​
Mailing List Sign-Up: www.julianjaynes.org/about/ma...
Books: www.julianjaynes.org/books/
Audio Programs: www.julianjaynes.org/product-...
#JulianJaynes​ #consciousness​ #bicameralmind
Copyright © 2021 Julian Jaynes Society. All rights reserved.

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Listen to the full interview, as well as lectures and interviews with Julian Jaynes, by joining the Julian Jaynes Society: www.julianjaynes.org/join/ Read our latest book, "Conversations on Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind," which answers all of the most common questions about Jaynes's theory, explains the latest evidence, and extends the theory into many new areas: www.amazon.com/gp/product/1737305534/

[@markk8520]

Fantastic interview on Julian Jaynes' theory, thank you!

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Thank you Mark!

[@waterkingdavid]

Always appreciative of people determined to try to understand things and dig deeper. I'm incredibly new to Jaynes- in fact just about 3 days old. Had seen the book title years ago which looked very inviting but was prodded to read it recently by a friend and am doing so now. Thre rapidly alternating thoughts are 1. Incredibly interesting and innovative and massively thought provoking 2. Incredibly speculate and quite probably incorrect 3. Almost certainly unprovable. We are born into language which then massively shapes what we see and experience in the world. For some reason (probably pain and discontent) some of us start asking questions about our experience and start enquiring into language and noting it's massive (perhaps almost total) molding and shaping of every aspect of our lives. Jaynes clearly thought this too. Yet to think that all beings other than humans are incapable of reflection/introspection and hence consciousness (for heaven's sake the word's been around long enough to know what it means rudimentarily so that to use it in some other way is surely pretty questionable if not downright confusing) leads dangerously towards not respecting other sentient feeling life forms leading to wonder whether Jaynes isn't Descartes' reincarnation. We're on the verge of destroying this beautiful planet because we don't respect others let alone other life forms. So "Let us not speak falsely now the hour is getting late" and realize the absolute truth that ALL beings are subjectively real and that this fact isn't more in some than others. It's an utter existential reality. Would love a live discussion with some about this. Open conversation is what we need and how we grow. Love to all you folks in this new age of rapidly increasing censorship and forced groupthink.

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Welcome to the channel, it's great to hear that you've recently discovered Jaynes's book. The case becomes more compelling the further into it you get. Jaynes's theory actually proposes a number of testable hypotheses. The initially sentiment of "it's probably wrong" is common and usually anyone's initial reaction to new, ground-breaking ideas that challenge existing paradigms. A great deal of new evidence has emerged that supports each of Jaynes's four primary hypotheses (see Jaynes's Afterword) since the publication of his book, which we detail in our follow-up publications. The lack of an "analog 'I' narratizing in a mind-space" in non-linguistic humans and non-human animals by no means suggests that they are not worthy of moral consideration. Non-linguistic humans and non-human animals have the capacity to feel, suffer, experience emotions, etc. (It follows that most if not all current forms of animal exploitation for food, research, fashion, cosmetics, entertainment, etc., by humans are probably unethical, and usually based more on a "might makes right" mentality than any form of rational moral arguments. See Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation".) The difference between linguistic and non-linguistic thought can be illustrated by an example: a non-linguistic child I know can express a preference for one Halloween costume over another when they are directly presented to him, but he seems to lack the capacity to imagine what costume he would like to wear in the future. Without a metaphor-based analog 'I' narratizing in a mind-space, he's always living in an eternal present. There are now child development studies documenting the changes to consciousness that take place as children learn language. Again, it's great to hear that you've discovered Jaynes's theory. After you've finished the book, we have much more to explore here: julianjaynes.org

[@waterkingdavid]

@@JulianJaynesSociety Thanks for the long very positive reply. I'm definitely going to keep going with the book. Just confused about his use of the term "consciousness" which doesn't seem to be the way it's used these days in consciousness studies. Definition of terms is crucial. But will keep open and persist in getting to the essence of Jaynes theory. Thanks so much 🙏.

[@galenflynn398]

This theory is provable, we're literally surrounded by its vestiges and the pre conscious writings with their outward proclamations and no words dealing with introspection. 3 days ha ha try 20 years and it will finally be revealed to you

[@j.s.raimes3993]

This theory is so mind blowing and really explains a lot regarding why hearing from gods were so ubiquitous across human cultures in ancient times. Such a thing always baffled me but the bicameral mind theory is a huge explanatory piece of that ancient puzzle.

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

We completely agree with you. Glad you enjoyed the interview!

[@trashygit]

We still hear the same voices in - or 'from' - our linguistic mental regime; the only difference is that the first Platonic then scientific revolutions shifted the 'meaning' of these voices and nowadays we believe that the voices come from our own minds. When controllable and shared/accepted by others we call them 'ideas', when uncontrollable then we call it madness.

[@gordonpepper1400]

This guy is so correct and indeed conscious is 100% a constructed phenomena, which permits us to be 'introspective' as Marcel points out - which of course other animals appear not to have. The question I have is that are we now in an electronic environment whereby we are returning to a bicameral mind? I say we are bc of social media and the demise of individualized consciousness.

[@michaelcrouch8783]

I'm interested because I read his book and all that and I I believe he talked about how consciousness could be manipulated to where it wouldn't function properly like it has been because of technology and because of other things and what's happening now is that I think I don't know if you agree with me but I think that there are individuals in the world with great privilege and power who are using language and creating environments to our people become dependent on other parafrans and metafrans when they come up with reality and this is being done to get them not to think for themselves anyways what do you think

[@elizabethp.99]

Great!

[@johnofemslie]

Is there no part 2 to this interview?

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Yes, it's available for Julian Jaynes Society members here, along with a ton of other Jaynes-related content: www.julianjaynes.org/member-login/

[@moniquesparla4343]

All the nowadays things that happening would make sense if you think about the Bicameral Mind

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

Absolutely, the theory has many modern day implications.

[@donsteitz6034]

Keeps coming up in the reflections I have on the subject. In particular, how Southern Evangelical societies seem to have this related mindset still lingering.

[@michaelcrouch8783]

"Une revolution sociale est fonde sur un renovation mental"

[@michaelcrouch8783]

Sorry to bother you again but I remember what the compt de Sade who was the (father of Marquis, and an anti royalist)

[@michaelcrouch8783]

The comp t de Sade said and I can't say it in French because this device will not allow that anyways he said that if you change the way people think you can change the world

[@michaelcrouch8783]

Good. Did semiotics influence him?

[@JulianJaynesSociety]

That's an interesting question... I don't think to a large degree.

[@redpillrules3136]

Foundations of the "Neo-Thought" movement.