How a hand tool split the woodworking world

[@mikegrawvunder6346]

Years ago, a 70-year-old cabinet maker was selling all his tools. I got two router planes in boxes for about $30 for both. One was a Stanley and I think the other was Miller Falls. Both with full sets of irons. Plus a few extra irons he made himself. Really love how they work. I do reach for the Stanley more than the other one. I also got a No. 7 Bench plane in a case he made for it. The case is a thing of beauty in itself.

[@jas20per]

From an old school Brit very well done. I would just like to say I purchased the Stanley in the late 1950s in Britain there was no real choice of manufacturer. I have noticed from your video the plane or should I give it its very old name "Old Woman's Tooth" is now used for complete removal of the joint wood, in my day that was the job of a cranked chisel if producing a straight slot. The Stanley was used for levelling the bottom of the slot to the required depth. As for sharpening the blade, a standard oil stone for the flat bottom and a small slip stone tor the the top angle. Modifications done on mine over time, the adjustment thread and nut were changed to Metric fine thread and the adjustment nut made larger out of Brass also I have forgotten the number of times it has hit the floor being knocked of the bench . So just another slant on a well talked over subject, food for thought I did say at work in my younger day that I was going to purchase one of those new DIY electric hand drills one older and wiser worker said to me "They did not have that type of thing in Chippendale's workshop and we still cant come near his quality today".

[@ChrisBombria]

For me the router plane has always been a cleanup tool. Take the bulk away however you want. Come in with a router plane to ensure a consistent depth of the groove. As long as the cutting iron is sharp, square and secure I'm happy.

[@rickhayhoe]

Yes!

[@JamesWilliams-en3os]

I have used the Veritas router plane for some time, and I love it. I saw JKM’s video on his new router plane last year and he sold me… so now I have both, and used both on a major project (a pair of Mission style bookcases). I had both router planes out on my bench, and just picked up whichever one was handy for whichever dado or tenon cheek I was working on at that moment. After a while I realized I was reaching for the Veritas tool preferentially. Why? Because the adjustment screw on the Veritas turns the correct way, apparently. With the JKM I invariably move the blade up first when I want it to go down, and vice versa. Also, the finer control of the thread pitch on the Veritas plane is better… as anyone who hand-cuts tenons knows, a tissue-paper-thin shaving can be the difference between a perfect fit into the mortise and starting all over again with a new piece of stock. So I am probably going to sell my JKM router plane. Oh, and I don’t care about the controversies, China vs US/Canada, or whether JKM is a nice guy or not. I just like the Veritas tool better.

[@GeeDeeBird]

Thanks for an actual, unambiguous opinion supported by objective fact.

[@twcmaker]

I like this reply. At the end of the day it's how the tool performs and feels in use.

[@josh8494]

Thanks for the input. I don’t care about the controversy, it’s just people looking for things to be angry about. I appreciate your summary on the function of the tools and their differences. It is a good write up and I think your points are well thought out.

[@ohasis8331]

I have much the same experience, having a lot of Veritas stuff. I had need of a larger router plane and my local supplier had none in stock (covid supply chain backlog) The JKM came out and was about forty bucks cheaper in my currency so thought I'd give it ago. End result is much the same as yours. My JKM is up for sale, my Veritas feels better to me.

[@katalytically]

For someone who doesn't own a router plane this is an informative video, both in the history of the router plane but about the various models you reviewed. Good info on what you find to be positive features and negative features which is useful in choosing one of those planes, or a plane from a different brand as I now know for which features to check. Because you stayed with the differences between the planes, and what features you like, I didn't get a sense you were recommending one over the other, with the exception of the Stanley. So thanks for the review and history lesson.

[@brandicolbert6932]

I have a Stanley large router plane No.71-1/2 (PAT D) mfg 10-29-1901 that my grandfather used, along with many other wood working hand tools he used in his early 20s. He was Born in Germany in 1879, migrated to this country, and became a citizen with his family . Apprenticed and worked as the cabinet maker. As a very young boy he schooled me in the use of these same tools. I inherited all of his hand tools and I plan on giving them to my grandson. I no longer use the tools but still work in my shop with up to date machine and hand tools. I am 86 yrs old and still build custom furniture now for family and friends

[@faraz2498]

I had an issue with the blade on my JKM tool, I contacted them just wanting a replacement blade. They sent me a whole new plane and 2 new blades. The support was excellent, great company to deal with.

[@tobiasfrancisco5879]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the price point. Manufacturing in china is cheaper, yes? Than why doesn't the price reflect that. Just like bridge city, they manufacture in china now, but their prices are ridiculous. When you pay for a Lie Nielsen, or a Veritas you know that they are providing safe working conditions and adequate compensation for their employees thus the higher cost to consumers.

[@dwainlambrigger3769]

There are many variables in pricing. How many units does JKM order at a time? Double that number and I'll bet that pricing will come down. Just because something is made in China means it's cheap. It often is, but my belief is that China will build what you require, regardless of pricing. I would guess the same is true for Bridge City. I can't see a big demand for their products.

[@digitalmunky]

Manufacturing in China IS cheaper, but guess what MOST people don't think about? The manufacturers/producers of the product are factoring overall cost to produce, advertise, distribute, and sell those items. From 100's of thousands to millions of units... So fractions of a dollar still often may equal millions. Cost to manufacturer will be considerably cheaper in China, BUT then cost of shipping and distribution from overseas eats up a considerable amount of those savings... Add to that popularity of the product along with greed and it's a recipe for holes in one's pockets.

[@gapingshanus]

Because they know you'll pay what they ask. The price difference goes in their pocket

[@zackeryhardy9504]

There are several offsets in play that can make a difference. Manufacturing in china isn't necessarily cheaper for higher end goods. Highly skilled tradesmen in China are still expensive to hire. Most manufacturing in china is budget and mass production oriented, but there is a quality market as well and you still have to pay for it. Casting for example can vary drastically. I work for a company that does cast parts. We have done casting in the US through Kelly, Germany, China, south Korea, and many other places. Oddly enough Kelly produced some of the worst castings we ever had 2nd only by a smaller company in china that went out of business shortly after we left. The German companies were not bad, but they were on par with some of the Japanese companies but with much higher tariffs which made it not worth it. Some of the best casting we were able to get was from companies in china. And their prices were expensive. You can get a lot of cheap castings in china, but if you go expensive then the price difference isn't as large as you would think. There are also tariffs on Chinese goods so you still have to factor that onto the price and shipping. Buying from a US manufacturer often results in a far cheaper shipping price no tariffs and quicker turn around allowing for a better capitalization on a high market. So you don't loose money as much by going out of stock. So when you actually price it all out its not really that big of a difference depending on your situation. Funny enough the labor in China isn't really that cheap any more. If you want cheap labor you go to India, Vietnam, or several south American countries and African countries. Chinese labor has gone up and if you do not wish to join the communist party labor goes way up. For example if you are not a party member you must pay a worker a full years wages if you fire them for any reason. Even if they get in a physical altercation with a co-worker and cause them injury you will be paying them a years wages for firing them. Though likely they would go to prison and you wouldn't have to fire them if things went that far, but its an example. Other things you have to deal with are government workers who keep coming to your factory shutting down production until you give them their desired bribe. Or you can join the party and give away the majority of your company to the government so you can essentially treat your workers like slaves. They will even send the police department in to force them to work. So overall if you are not a crappy person and don't wish to treat people like garbage and sell your soul to a foreign government, the price of running a factory is only slightly cheaper. But what is massively cheaper is the fact that you have access to so many other manufacturers near by. You essentially can walk to all of the different vendors producing everything you would need for your production. Why make your own screws when there is a company that makes screws right next door and has the machinery to make whatever you ask for on the fly with very little cost. A lumber mill is also right next door cutting raw timber imported from Canada. There are hundreds of various factories that just produce high quality industrial machinery. And its not junk tools like wen. They are only producing tools for large industrial companies. Actually when you factor in the cost of importing them to the US the US equivalent machines its only about 3k difference for a lot of these. 17k for the Chinese version vs 20k for the us version. Shipping makes a huge difference when you need to put it on a shipping container and the machine takes up 25% of the room and it still needs to be shipped with a US shipper that can deliver a 2 ton machine. So all in all while there may be a slight difference in price, its not the difference you think it is when dealing with the high end. Now if you want cheap stuff with no real attention to detail then china can bring the prices down a lot. But in the high end space, it really doesn't make a huge difference. Remember that designing and prototyping is expensive. If you have to pay an engineer for a full year of their work plus prototypes you are having to pay back a 120k investment. And if you have to consider the products lifespan. For something like lie nielson's tools, you are looking at something like a 20 to 30 year product life span before you need to make a change. So you need to factor in the cost of the materials, and the volume you can sell along with your production capacity to determine when your break even point is. So lets say you spend 100k on engineering costs and you are selling a product that cost 20 dollars to make, and can sell an average of 20 units a month and has a life cycle of 10 years. For a 10 year cycle you need to at least be making money for half of that so lets factor in 20 units a month and add in the cost of that to our initial 100k investment. That comes out to 24k dollars and when added to the 100k engineering that's 124k we need to make in 5 years. So, when we do our division we need to sell that product for 103.33 to break even in 5 years. Now that isn't an easily advert sable number so we would round that to 109.99. If we drop that to 3 years then we need to sell it for 172.22 dollars so we would then sell that for 174.99. What a company sells their products depends heavily on their break even point. No one seems to really understand the development cost aspect of pricing. There is also overhead that I didn't factor in which is the cost of paying off the loans for the building you are using and the electricity. And we have to factor in that some of those units are going to get broken and have to be replaced under warranty if we do that. Not to mention units we pay money for that we have to through away which not only eats into our 20 a month number, but our cost as we still paid the 20 to make that unit. So for the 3 year time frame we would be closer to $200 to make our imaginary fictional tool we described above. When comparing lie nielson to bridge city, lie nielson tends to not update their designs all that frequently while bridge city is all about innovation and several units have been redesigned. So lie nielson may be able to make a single product last a lot longer and can have a longer 10 year break even point with some of their products where bridge city may need to have shorter break even windows to pay for their constant development. Their products have a much shorter shelf life to pay off that up front cost. So its entirely possible that lie nielson is a much more profitable company by not taking on those engineering fees and bridge cities decision to produce in china is to keep their costs down. They may have been loosing money before or have been on ultra slim profit margins. Or they may be doing very well and the decision is to make even more money. You don't know, but a lot of people do not realize what things really cost to make and how pricing works. People look at the 20 dollars to manufacture and think "why am I paying 200 dollars for this item" but they don't realize that when they started selling that item they were 125k in the hole and can only sell that product for 10 years. You are not just paying for it to be made with some on the top for profit. You are paying the engineer to design and refine and prototype out the product plus the manufacturing. Its why you see some things that have been produce for a long time drop in price even without a new model. Once that engineering cost has been paid off it may be beneficial to drop the price to get that competitive edge. And because everyone may already have one of your products, you may simply be hitting up the people who were not buying due to price constraints when you were still paying off your debt you acquired to design the darn thing.

[@brianhmonks]

Made by Chinese manufacturer Hongdui. Hongdui is actually making good products with some innovative features. The Hongdui sells go $230 and the LN is $250. If your decision making is based on dollars, the KM could be your choice. For me, buying the best, US made and the difference is only $20, it’s a no brainer to get the LN.

[@ENCurtis]

Absolutely fair point on which to make a decision.

[@halbritt]

If Hongdui is making good products with innovative features, I'm at a loss as to why anyone would preferentially choose a US made tool. I recently picked up their stock guides and miter gauge. The stock guides are similar to the JessEm ones, but are superior in a number of ways. The miter gauge is like jewelry, the fit and finish is so good. Nothing else on the market that I've held in my hands comes close, both in terms of function and quality.

[@anthonydtobias]

Because I am from Maine I bought the Lie-Neilson at their headquarters. No regrets. I figured though that if I bought the Veritas that I wouldn't really notice that much of a difference... At the end of the day I was glad to support a local business. Keep on doing your thing, I enjoy your videos! ✌️

[@JeffFontecchio]

Thanks for taking the time to make this video!

[@ENCurtis]

Thanks jeff!

[@jimwilliams2682]

Now, you need to try Paul Seller's and Rex Krueger's router planes. Old timey wooden bodies.

[@bluecollaruniversity]

Paul Sellers router plane is not only simple, I like that the blade is straight stock... Easier to sharpen.

[@davidmcrae4791]

It seems hard to make :( I'm not really sure how to buy the parts

[@BillMSmith]

Contentedly clueless over this controversy. I do own a Veritas, works fine, a router plane is essential to me. A few months ago a friend gave me a cheap router plane his wife had bought off Amazon, I think for less than 40 bucks. A little while back I had the Veritas set for what would be a whole bunch of cuts to a specific depth. I set the cheapo up, required surprisingly little sharpening, the sole was flat enough for most uses so I put it to work. Terrible ergonomics, but the thing cut just fine. I never knew I needed a second router plane, but for the times I do, this will work. BTW, someone once said " Show me an unbiased human being, I'll show you a corpse." That might have been me. Thanks for keeping track of your own. Now go get back to the lumber rack and have some fun.

[@johnbesharian9965]

Being 82 and on a strict budget, I have the Bench Dog version of the Lie-Neilson which suits my needs just fine. If I find I need a narrower blade I could buy either of their $50.00 adaptor inserts to buy a $50.00 Veritas blade, or just buy Bench Dog replacement blades at $20.00 and spend a little time at the bench grinder creating what I need. By the bye, looking at the difference of the shaft shapes between Stanley, Veritas and Lie-Neilson, I think the square shaped blade shank pressed fully against the shaft offers the sturdiest, most stable and chatter-free option if you have to extend the blade much more than ¾" to 1" below the base, which happens with an aux. base.

[@billengland1183]

One of my morning pleasures is sitting down at the computer with a cup of coffee and learning from one of your videos. You have an marvelous style and presentation and I appreciate you sharing your experience and approaches. You also have a cooler coffee mug than me!

[@ENCurtis]

Thank you!

[@SleepyHuskyStudio]

As a very new woodworker, I started this video with no idea what a router plane was. Now I desperately want one. Eric, my wife is very angry with you for fueling my addictions.

[@Aaron-nj4ou]

My personal opinion is this. Everyone buys stuff from overseas, it is unavoidable. However when it comes to tools that I will buy once and hopefully pass down to my children I will absol-friggin-lutely buy a tool that is made in Canada (where I live) or US (if I lived there) compared to something overseas. That is a no brainer for me. As a Canadian the Veritas router plane is actually cheaper than KM’s (exchange, shipping, warranty, return etc) but even if it wasn’t I would still gladly pay more for domestic manufacturing (and I have for other tools) and in my experience the quality is second to none. I have regretted cheaper tools on many occasions, I have never regretted buying an expensive tool. Erik absolutely awesome discussion and another excellent video.

[@RyanWattersRyanWatters]

100%. It’s the reason I buy JessEm as an American. The KM router plane isn’t about innovation and production quality; it’s about disproportionate profit margin, which comes at the cost of further moving all means of production overseas.

[@chuckgrumble5440]

very important to me as well and I feel the need to snatch up USA made stuff before its too late!

[@chipsterb4946]

@@RyanWattersRyanWattersyour comment hits the nail on the head. If I buy CCP made crap at Walmart, the price is significantly lower.

[@TenaciousGeebs]

100% agree my friend. I am in the UK and will only seek out those hand tools which are either US, Canada or UK made, with no overseas manufacturing/assembly input. More than happy to spend the money to pay for good craftsmanship!

[@ENCurtis]

Totally fair point of view from which to operate. And as a small American business, I appreciate you supporting small businesses. LV and LN both make excellent tools. You won't go wrong with either.

[@garethmcneill5132]

I'm in Northern & bought the Katz Moses version recently. My first router plane. It has changed his I work and made my housings & other journey so much more accurate. I love it. My only complaint is that even after paying postage & shipping with KMT, I was charged an import fee by the delivery service. This added £50 (circa 75 usd) just to receive the package. Has made me reluctant to order additional sizes of blades

[@ENCurtis]

Totally fair. Glad it has been a good tool for you though!

[@1deerndingo]

FWI: 1. The edge guide on the Stanley locks into the grooves in the base. It doesn't just swivel around. 2. The open mouth clears (is not impeded by) any shavings at the end of a stopped dado so as to allow the blade to cut to the end of the dado without having to stop and remove shavings. If I didn't have two hand routers already I'd buy J. K-M's in a flash. Great tool. Great price.

[@PaoYong]

This is so insanely informative. Thank you. Also the controversy over KatzMoses "copying" a design is ridiculous considering Lie Nielsen literally 1:1 copies Stanley

[@daw162]

Thieving trade dress of an active product is something that can be litigated. It's not ridiculous at all except for the fact that people who claim to want to make things think it's no big deal. It's something you'd expect a spendthrift who just wants the most they can get out of other people while paying the least might otherwise say. It happens all the time in the hobby woodworking world not because it's OK, but because it's costly to litigate. Nobody looked at an LN plane and thought it was Stanley - it looks distinctly like something else. Katz's plane just looks like he copied the non-functional parts of the LV plane out of laziness. I can't think of anything lower than that for someone who wants to be seen as a maker vs. just being a mark farmer selling things like the aprons as kick back prevention or whatever else. The levels this hobby has sunk to are a shame, but hey, we're looking at what the hobby has become on youtube. It's a hobby where people spend 10 years learning to sharpen as well as they could in a week, and people who spend decades taking one beginner class after another buying endless nonsense sold at them to generate a link through affiliate commission.

[@petevonschondorf4609]

Qualification - I'm cheap. I hardly buy new tools but when I do, and sometimes unsuccessfully, I look at the metal quality and the ability to sharpen the tool. Address in future tool videos this it would help me. I really like the video.

[@skippylippy547]

Great review, wonderfully crafted video! Thank you. 👍 but . . . you left out The Mighty BenchDog! 🤣 I mean, after all . . . Rob Cosman reviewed the Benchdog and gave his approval! So I bought the BenchDog for 68.00 ON SALE and lovin' life. Makin' things. 💪

[@christopherharrison6724]

I made my own which is extremely useful with depth adjustment .

[@BakerVS]

I like the cut at 4:35 :). I saw the screw get turned around after the cut.

[@simongilchrist3329]

For the Stanley, I have the adjustment knob upside down all the time. I only have one original cutter but 5 Veritas cutters which are compatible but longer. So it just makes sense for me. As for the open vs closed sole, both have a time and place. When the lighting isn’t ideal, the open throat is easier on the eyes. Neither is a deal breaker for me. Definitely gotta agree the canted knobs on the Veritas are comfortable and offer better control.

[@robdrownyt]

I have s Stanley 71 with three blades and A Walke-Moore 3500. Walke-Moore makes a copy of the Preston 2500. The fit and finish on the WM is excellent. Customer service is also. The router plane is considerably longer than the Stanley and you can put the cutter in alternate positions which make working on longer tenons or wide lap joints possible, It is a wonderful tool made by two guys with a dream. I believe they are from Massachusetts, nope upstate NY. I solve the depth adjuster problem by using two planes. I set one plane to the final depth and leaving it alone. The other plane is used to work down through the material until I get close to the final depth then finish with the first plane.

[@fladder1]

Thanks for saving me money! I actually didn't know these existed until I saw your video. I was about to buy a power router, because i need to make a few grooves, and well tools always come in handy. But instead i bought a Veritas miniature plane. Because it's big enough for my current needs, and no noise!!

[@michaelm210]

Beginner woodworker here. Literally just yesterday found a new-in-box Stanley in my late FIL’s shop. Then I watch this video the next day 😆

[@sgsax]

Didn't even realize there was a controversy. Personally, I think the more choices that are available (for any product), the better. It's better for competition, which makes the companies have to work harder, leading to more innovation. And I just like having choices. One of these is definitely on my wish list. Thanks for sharing!

[@joshuagharis9017]

Absolutely, copyright stifles innovation. Corporate greed

[@joshuagharis9017]

Look at medicines and generic meds

[@tacticalskiffs8134]

The thing is that companies are competing for the nitwit dollar. I have been at this for 55 years, and really never need another new tool, though I did just drop a lot of money on some shinny stuff... For the most part, though, this is glitter to attract goofballs. Stuff for people my age, who didn't start woodworking until just the other day. They think that if their tools have a whole bunch of metal working dials on them, that they will be great at woodworking, and it isn't going to hurt anything. Let the cash flow.

[@blayne2029]

Nice. More of these videos. I, personally, have not enjoyed good customer service from a JKM purchase. That would be the deciding factor for me. Veritas and Lie Nielsen customer service is outstanding. You can buy them with confidence.

[@jimgott119]

I purchased the Katz-Moses plane after seeing his KZbin video touting its improvements. I already owned the Lie Nielsen, but it looked like an improvement so I ordered it. When it came it was not to my liking. His claim of absolutely no backlash was not what I experienced at all. But the most disturbing thing was that the blade carriage was not at right angles to the sole so it made an angled stepped cut across the bottom of the groove. This was the case with both blades. I sent him an email with photos and my phone number, asking him to call me to discuss it. He would not. He kept asking questions via email. I told him that I wanted to have a live conversation which would be more productive and again asked him to call me. He would not. I gave up and returned it for a refund.

[@MUSEDR00L]

it is what it is. Love the mug.

[@privatetoddmason-darnell7187]

Really appreciate the video. I had decided that a router plane was my next purchase. I was stuck in analysis paralysis and as with most other tool purchases, once you get to higher levels, it really is personal preference.

[@ENCurtis]

once you get past budget, personal preference is 100% of the game. They are all essentially the same from a function perspective.

[@danielaltieri8089]

I love you address your biases and you did it in such a friendly way. I also LOVE how you start with the point that Stanley just took a proven set of design options from a tool that existed in some form to mass produce…just like the more modern versions. I have an older refurbed “no-name” router plane that’s perfectly functional but would make a purchase to support someone like JKM because I like his content and drive to innovate and support this community.

[@jimcarter4929]

It looks like an Australian company is making a metal version of Paul Sellers plane. Same blade design, same locking design, pretty much a copy. I think Vic may be selling them in Canada and the U.S.

[@osliverpool]

A couple of months ago, I got a great fleamarket buy... A Record version of the Stanley, in excellent condition, for £5 (~$6.30). (I'm not a furniture maker, just a DIY guy, and it's plenty good enough for me.)

[@ENCurtis]

Hell yes dude. Love a good flea market find!

[@davewest6788]

Well done video and well produced. Best integration for a sponsor I have ever seen so far.

[@loubonaparte5063]

you mean best sucking up you've ever seen??? lol

[@loubonaparte5063]

Having said that... your skill and knowledge is vast, and I simply can't look away.... I just wish you'd change your style a smidge because I feel your skills far outweigh your gimicky presentation... great hair and beard though!!!! and Bi's and Tri's....lol.... Call you man of mystery.

[@jonavedian1027]

Would love to hear thoughts on wood body routers, a la Paul Sellers or Rex Kruger, both of which have plans and kits available. I have parts for a Sellers, just sitting behind a bunch of other projects.

[@BlankBrain]

I made my router plane from a piece of oak firewood. The blades are made from large hex keys and held in place with a steel dowel pin and thumb screw. The depth adjustment is a ring with thumb screw. The wood is an elbow, so he grain follows the front. Part of the top is live edge. The thing is, it actually works quite well. I can affix a plastic laminate shoe protector with carpet tape later if I want.

[@jeffsimpson9232]

I use a Veritas and a very old Stanley that doesn't have a depth adjuster. I set and *mark* my baselines with the Veritas. I hog out the waste with the Stanley, which is quickly adjusted with hammer taps, and do the final clean-up with the Veritas. I love this system.

[@lawrencedeleurere4427]

The movement on the Stanley is a feature, not a bug. Take your shaving, keep the collet tight and lower the depth adjuster until it bottoms out on the blade. Then loosen the collet, it will drop slightly and retighten. You'll now be at the perfect depth for the next shave. Also, I think that you misread the dislike of the JKM. I think it largely has to do with the partnership with Hongdui. In the manner of pretty much every Chinese factory out there, the first thing they did was unbrand it and put it on Banggood for 160 bucks. This is typical for Hongdui. They have a direct rip-off of the Veritas dovetail guide, they ripped off the Jessem table saw guides, Bridge City's kerfmaker. It's just what they do, let someone else do the IP work and then blatantly rip it off and undercut them on price. JKM feeding into Hongdui feels like not just a betrayal of western companies, but something that will discourage innovation and hurt woodworkers in years to come. It's just not a good thing.

[@dereklong801]

If its not patented its fair game.

[@riba2233]

How can it discourage innovation when it improved upon the original design? It is not a copy lol, it is a high quality product that offers added benefits over the "original" one.

[@lawrencedeleurere4427]

@@dereklong801 If it is patented, it's also fair game from Chinese manufacturers. China requires that all patent claims be resolved in their courts. They fine any entity operating in China up to 100 thousand dollars a day for bringing patent claims against Chinese companies in foreign courts. Chinese courts are not known for being friendly to foreign companies. So let's say Jessem wants to sue Hongdui for patent infringement. They have to sue them in a Chinese court or risk millions in fines from the Chinese. I suppose that it's possible that Chinese courts could honor patent infringement cases from Jessem, but you run into issues that the Chinese system requires the patents be registered with the Chinese patent organizations. Western industries claim that often, local manufacturers will beat them to the punch and register copycat patents in China of Western patents. It's really not fair game in any sense of the term.

[@lawrencedeleurere4427]

@@riba2233 It discourages innovation because it lowers the amount of reward Western companies see from their original innovation. If a company spends say 1 million dollars on developing a product, they need to see at least 1 million dollars in profit from that product to make the research worthwhile. Pretend for a moment a world without Chinese copycats, a company might estimate that it can sell 100 thousand units at 15 dollar profit and make 1.5 million, for a profit of 500 thousand. Now we have a world with Chinese copycats that cuts the number of units the original company can sell in half so down to 50 thousand units as people instead want to buy the cheap Chinese knockoff. This leads to a profit of -250 thousand dollars, so the original company will say, it's not worth it to invest in researching a new tool because we'll take a loss on it. That's how it discourages innovation.

[@riba2233]

@@lawrencedeleurere4427 rofl, you live in a fantasy land. So if you see a design, and have the idea to improve it (or you know, actually innovate?) and sell the improved version, you should never be able to do that? How is that good for the innovation on the market please explain. Also if they made a 1:1 copy with no improvements I wouldn't say anything, but cmon.

[@keithc1335]

Love your maturity. Great video!

[@orbsphere-]

I'm still split but now with a lot more questions on another level but trying to help answer some myself. If you're not sure which way the adjustment knob on the Stanley goes maybe glancing at some of the other planes might help except some of them have a larger diameter knurled knob for ease of use and only goes on one way but which position does the Stanley more closely resemble? The counterclockwise adjustment of the one plane makes it proprietary requiring you to get a replacement knob from the maker as well as their cutters for their 2 bar adjustment guides. Same maker thing goes for square cutter stem being parallel with the the blade or rotated 45 degrees. I'd go with the clean hex key rather than a chewed up slotted screw fastening the blade to the stem or on the handles. As for vertical vs. splayed grips the knobs are round allowing you to hold the knobs anyway you want. I noticed you placed your hands palms down on the splayed ones but palms facing on the vertical routers but could also use palms down. Actually on the splayed ones you could also use them with palms turned out helping to eliminate gutting yourself with elbows on the pull stroke. Don't know if casting the bridge across the cutter throat or placing vert. handles isn't just as difficult or easier as casting splayed handles would have been. As for you being a furniture maker or a KZbinr we would need to see your footwear to decide. Shoes or sandals? LOL

[@willemkossen]

That is a great comparison. I like routerplanes. Ever since i made my own, i started collecting video's about making routerplanes in a playlist. I will add this one to the list, as it give great perspective on the tools. If people want to make their own routerplane, the list is a helpful resource. Cheers!

[@ENCurtis]

Thank you! Glad you found it useful.

[@bryanmartin8336]

I grabbed a Lie Nielsen because I needed one and couldn't find any in stores around me. Took me less than a week to buy a Jack from them after that. Not sure what this controversy is that you're talking about, but I couldn't be happier with what I already have.

[@DKWalser]

Another thing to consider is the cost and availability of accessories for the plane. LN, Veritas, and JKM all offer replacement blades of differing widths for their planes. This allows cutting a narrower dado than can be done with their standard blades. Veritas offers the greatest number of differing widths -- both narrower and wider than the standard blade. Each brand offers a fence for their router plane. (The JKM comes with a fence.) Veritas also offers an inlay cutter head for their plane. (Currently, the other two do not.) The inlay cutter head makes it easier to cut the shallow groove for inlaid banding or stringing. Of course, if all you'll be doing with the router plane is truing up tenons and cutting 1/2" or wider dados, you'll never need or want any of these accessories. But, if you think you MIGHT want the flexibility to use your router plane to cut narrower dados and grooves, or even for inlay work, you'll want to consider what accessories are available for the plane you are considering buying.

[@martinrwolfe]

A very good review. I have the Stanley 71. First a couple of points on the 71 it does gave the guide groves so that the fence is always square. Secondly one of the cutters the witches for mine the witches tooth does have an iron that is removable from the stem. With regards to the KM router plane for me once I was made aware of the depth stop and and its improved functionality over the Veritas one the controvesy vanished. The only gripe I now have with the KM is the Chineese manufacture however as far as I know no UK plane manufacturer makes a metal bodied router plane that is a miner gripe. One add on / after market mod I would like to see for the stanly is replacing that foot with an actual verticaly adjustable mouth which I think would be a far better use of that mount point as it is already there..

[@andrewirvine6444]

Depth Adjustment All you need is a loose leaf binder of shins with a central cutout to go under the casting and both sides of the blade. Pick the right shim e.g. 1/10,000 of an inch, loosen the collet and hold the casting and blade pressing lightly downward. Then retighten the collet, licking the blade 1/10000” lower. Remove the shim and the blade will accurately plane out /10000” for you. Works with el cheapo Stanley and the fancy costly variants equally well. Obviously this only needs to be used for finalising the dado as the adjustment will be coarser down to the last 1/1000” or so.

[@robohippy]

I commented to my dad once, "Opinions are like rear ends, every one has one." Dad, not losing a second commented back, "Yea, and some of them stink!" This seems to be pretty objective. What I am trying to remember is if Rob Cosman has his own router plane. It may have been JKM that I saw who has his own. John said he was going to be in Portland, OR for the American Assn. of Woodturning Symposium next summer, and I hope to chat with him.

[@214rwoz]

Properly Educated Jointers, I like the sound of that ! Thank you for all your time and effort. Yours, 1 in 7..

[@grantwilliams630]

I bought my Veritas router plane because i thought the angled handles were more comfortable (the KM one didn't exist at the time). I've been super impressed with it, but I doubt you could go wrong with any of them.

[@cobtheconqueror]

Great neutral review on all of them. Pros and cons of each. I appreciate when after explaining your preference, you explained why someone may have a different preference. We May have the same muscle memory for this action but opposite muscle memory for a different action.

[@robertberger8642]

Excellent review with compare & contrast. Thanks.

[@joshuarobertson5514]

Thank you for the video. Love the mug!😊

[@Kosh42EFG]

I have the JKM mallet. It's awesome. The router plane is on my buy list...

[@Michael-ul8bv]

Sir; I have only one and it's a sargent. I have only had this one and never saw the need to buy a fancy one. I bought this one for $20.00 35 years ago and it does what I need it to do.

[@TheWeekendWoodshop]

I have a router plane...just a cheap one that I got off Amazon and it works well for my needs. But I completely agree that it is a necessity in the shop. As to the topic of "design ripoff" I don't see it as stealing per se. Innovation is essential and what JKM has done with his router plane is what he feels makes the tool better. Is it for everyone? No, certainly not. But it works for him and for at the very least thousands of others in the craft. And that's ok. To each his own as they say 😁 Great video as always. You have become one of my favorite fellow creators. The topics you cover and the way you cover them is truly inspirational. Cheers!

[@mcguiganmike]

great job. Just an FYI, the KM plane is on sale right now. I think $189 range. I am still not ready to buy one, but I am new to woodworking and learning a lot!

[@Kernowwoods]

A pleasure as always dude. Love the honesty. Love the video 🤙

[@ENCurtis]

Thank you.

[@keving8682]

Thanks for the video - much appreciated! I have not read all of the comments, but I think one of biggest controversies was that Hongdui/JKM made what appeared to be an exact copy of the Veritas base. The one in your video is version 2. I purchased version 1 the day JKM announced it because I liked the zero backlash adjustment which I think was an improvement to the router plane. Version 1 also does not have the depth stop. Had they started with version 2, like the one you are showing, I think there would have been a lot less controversy.

[@ga5743]

Excellent video today thank you. I own the Lie Nielsen and I also own the Veritas miniature router plane now that one is my favorite 😊

[@AnonymousUser1776]

The slop in the Stanley adjustment is actually a feature. With the blade tightened in place you can move the adjuster down a tiny amount, then you loosen the iron, and it falls the amount you moved the knob. Then tighten up and proceed. That was their system of micro adjusting.

someone's been watching Wright :) Tested the slop feauture and damn, wish I knew it sooner

[@AnonymousUser1776]

Exactly right….. er…. Wright.

[@ENCurtis]

Fair enough. Still not my preferred method, but I can appreciate that approach.

[@victoryak86]

I’d buy that JKM. Looks beautiful.

[@mwrcrft]

I have had the Veritas model for 10 or so years and it has been a reliable tool with no surprises.

[@walterrider9600]

thank you EN . how funny thanks . i like the kat too. hope all goes well for you both.

[@gcranston83]

There's a Wood by Wright video where he says that looseness in the depth adjuster in the Stanely is deliberate to give you that 'right' amount to increase your depth of cut. Maybe someone else has the link handy?

[@pedro.federici]

Hello Erick. Does the Stanley baldes really fits on Veritas Router?

[@StripeyType]

It is - as a metalworker who came to the hobby from woodworking first - weird to me to hear woodworkers talk about the differences that a few thou will make. Generally solid wood will move way more than that seasonally. That having been said, it's also *refreshing*; yes, wood will move, and yes, glue will absolutely take up even a ten-thou gap without much trouble. But chasing precision can feel GOOD. It's a false economy when you're trying to make a piece to sell. But if you're just... working to a high standard because that kind of practice is how you improve? That's something I can genuinely appreciate. All of that having been said, I've often really felt that any kind of plane iron - and this includes hag-tooth and router planes - should be fashioned from a single, simple, flat piece of bar stock. The owner of the plane should be able to replace the iron with a shop-made one that was laid out on flat bar stock tool steel which was prepared with no more than a file. I'll make allowances for the necessary hole in the irons of most bench planes, but generally the adjustment features shouldn't be a part of the iron in my view, they should be integrated into the cap-iron or chipbreaker. Wooden planes meet this definition far more readily than transitional-and-later planes; I'm not sure *why* I feel this way, mind you, and it's not something I feel strongly-enough about to claim is some kind of hard-and-fast rule to which I hold even *my own* tools, let alone anybody else's. I dunno. Every so often I draw up a set of planes in CAD with this design requirement. The Router is always the trickiest. Maybe someday I'll actually make one of these silly things. It's a lot of design work which is intended to make the "consumable" of the iron itself something trivially replaced by the woodworker, and which is totally unnecessary in this day and age. Maybe it might've been something useful in the nineteenth century, to be able to just go to the village blacksmith and say "hey I need an iron; it's not complicated."

[@5ElementsWoodworking]

Thanks for this video! You've made it super clear which one I should buy with your strong opinions presented.

[@marchuvfulz]

Nice. Great little product comparison.

[@mikeyates1450]

Great review. I happen to own the Veritas and love it. Been woodworking fot 60 years and find most times similar tools come down to best price and comfort in use. Keep doing your videos like you do and I wish you success. The most anyone can expect from you is honest and frank opinions and you do that well.

[@tabitha2706]

This was truly awesome. Thank you so much for it. I recently bought the Taytools version as my first router plane, mostly because of price point. Haven’t used it much yet so I'm not displeased in it, but based on your review I'm pointing toward the JKM when or if I replace it. You rock!

[@JFKreations]

Looks like Woodpeckers has developed a fancy pants router plane too. I’m not sure it’s been released yet, but maybe worth throwing in the mix?

[@cristianvel619]

I just ordered the Veritas after seeing this video. I’m new to mortise and tenon joinery and need it for my first project. I feel the LN and Veritas have that heirloom quality and the JKM maybe doesn’t have or hasn’t earned. That’s basically my rationale, that and the removable blade for sharpening.

[@Timber2Toothpicks]

You did a KILLER job on the plane. I have the KM and the Veritas…. I use them both & both are set up differently. Good Job! The Veritas with all the extras is a very expensive investment. However, when you learn how quickly you can use all the irons… worth every penny. Thats why I bought both of them. The KM is SWEET. The Veritas is just sooo COOL and we all know that counts. Well Done! You use the knob or nut properly. My dad had that plane. I have it and never use it…. Dont STUB your open toe!!!

[@Varvitski]

Hardly controversial I would have thought, but simply an excellent summary comparing the pros and cons of these editions of this interesting tool. Glad to have clicked the bait. Thanks for the video.

[@philaandrew100]

I trained on the '71 some 40 years ago so yeah, it is my go to router plane.... or should I say router planes as there are 6 or 7 lurking in my workshop, each of them setup to do different tasks. Lucky I got them waaaay before the Maestro Paul Sellars made them a highly sought after tool.... I have the Veritas version as well. However, they are all good and you are spot on with your conclusions.

[@ENCurtis]

I appreciate your insight given your experience. Nothing wrong with the ol' 71. Just a matter of personal preference.

[@philaandrew100]

Exactly. Use the tool that you are most comfortable with. I am sure that if I only had the choice of of a Veritas or Lie Nielson I would be just as happy. They are all really good tools.

[@Win52D]

Nice review. If I didn't already have 2 of the Veritas routers I would be inclined to pickup the JKM as well.

[@brianm.9451]

Love the comparison! I love my Veritas router plane. The removable blade was a huge improvement and made sharpening easier. I never thought about the depth stop, mostly because I use my chisels for more refinements. The splayed knobs made routing with my router plane a joy. I don’t know why people hate on JKM. He seems to care about those getting into woodworking and he sells tools that are high quality and good for newbies. It’s the same reason he pushes for Suizan (good saws but I love my Gyokucho). My tools make me happy and I respect JKM who wants newbies to be happy.

[@MrBertstare]

they might see through the BS and see him for the type of person he really is. Do some digging, ask around its not good.

[@HopeStreetWoodworks]

Because he partners with a company that steals the intellectual property of other manufacturers.

[@MrBertstare]

@@HopeStreetWoodworks I dont want to influence your opinion but do a little digging about his personal life and you will see a pattern.

[@roderik1990]

To me I dislike him, because he always seemed to me to be one of those youtubers that wants to sell me something. Not quite as bad as Cosman, but still getting those vibes.

[@Adamant4160]

I've always wanted a nice router plane. But, evertime I needed one the old paul sellers chisel hammered into a board has worked great

[@jsmxwll]

i have the JKM, a Stanley and the one i built out of the Paul Sellers kit, and then one made based on the Paul Sellers kit with a much finer depth adjustment screw. i use the two Paul Sellers style planes pretty most of the time. they are functional, easy to use, and easy to modify to fit my working style. i also have a hags tooth with a rounded blade that i use for really moving material. i'm just a hobbiest having a ball making whatever has my attention at the moment. i am a lot harder on my tools than most people probably are, which is why i like self made tools. i can remake them when i break them. if i break the JKM router plane, i might cry. HONGDUI makes pretty good tools, and is willing to work with someone like JKM, whereas getting a Veritas or Lie-Nielsen to co-brand a tool and do development work is a lot less likely. both companies really seem to focus on their core competency and probably don't have the latitude to experiment too much given how high their costs are.

[@davidberrien9711]

I had been making do with the Paul Sellers "Poor Man's Router Plane" made out of random scraps of construction lumber. Did great work, but repeatable cuts are fiddly... Planning the work makes things go smoother. I finally sprung for the Taylor Toolworks mini router plane and it is a gem. But depth adjustment is not screw-thread assisted, and there is no depth stop. But it works well, and is well-made. Their full-size router plane is very interesting, appears to have all the essential features, and is 1/2 the price of the big boys in the video.

[@watermain48]

Great comparison Erik. I have an old, in the box Miller Falls router plane in good condition, but it's time to upgrade. I like the Katz-Moses, but the threads being a little coarse and left-handed is a stopper for me, plus I like supporting domestic products so I'm going to get the Veritas or Lie-Neilson version. Thanks for the video.

[@dasdenny5495]

For me the Veritas is not that great. I bought it 3 year ago. First of all, I never thought, that the size would be my main problem. I like to clean tenons with it and because it is smaller than my stanley and the handles are agled, it is very difficult to maintain a solid stand on the board that's beside the tenon. The second problem and maybe it was specific on my plane was, that the locking mechanism never got to the point, where the blade did not move when I was working. Every time the blade had to took off more then a hair thin shaving it wanderd downwards. THe plane was bought new, but I fast came to the decission to sell it and try a used stanley instead an it fits my need better and holds the blade. I thin the Lie Nielson blade will hold excelent in the cast whole, but never tried one. Maybe it's personal preferense but for me, a good used standley was the better investment for me. But if the Veritas serves you well, it's the right one for you. I think at the end I am not into tool wars anyway. get the tool that fits your need, test some different and if the things you want to create are possible to creat with the tools, it's the right tool for you. Like your content, great work. The Katz-Moses Version is all over the chinese sites and in the same style as customer brand in europa at Dictum too, so it's a very close call, that the all came out the same factory in China with different names.

[@JamesScalf-q5k]

Does the JKM not support a fence?

[@royunderwood7514]

Great video. Definitely gave me some useful insight into these router planes. Thank you.

[@vanislescotty]

Timely, was considering buying a router plane soon. Thank you!

[@seanpatterson1609]

Thank you for this video and your input. I alleviate hearing about experience with different tools, especially in what makes them unique. I also appreciate your style.

[@bobmartin6055]

Another great video! Love your insights! Cheers

[@charliemaddock3459]

Can I get a rounded groove cutter bit for speargun shaft tracks ! ??

[@markgibala2268]

Thanks for reviewing and providing a great overview. I been looking at buying a new router plan and thought in was going to buy the LN as I have 6 of their planes and love the quality. JKM might be the winner due to adjustability.

[@roy.mclean]

I have an LN. I was curious to see how you compare tools you can make from a block of wood and an Allen wrench ground to a point. I don't see measuring scales as a feature as if I really need precision to match a cut, then I just adjust the tool using the original cut, set the depth stop and work my way down to it. I'm ok with KZbinrs making money selling tools. I like JKMs content, but his tool seems more fancy than anyone needs, but the price is good. I received my LN as a gift, but I have made my own in the manner I mentioned above. but I'd use any of the ones mentioned. Good work.

[@thomasnichols7788]

Well just thanks a lot!!!! My wife was listening in on this podcast and started laughing herself silly. She now calls me an SNOB! I have to admit I do hold turners, carvers, scollsawers (is that a real word), and (spit on the floor) CNC users less than real woodworkers. I have been designing and making furniture for decades and now have to admit I have become an elitist. I don't mind being humbled but this is the last time I am listening to your podcast without headphones. My wife and not stopped calling me a snob!!! LOL! keep up the good work. Now where is my Scotch?

[@contestwill1556]

your caviar, sir

[@msalzberg4962]

I don't have a router plane, although it will be my next purchase, so I'm not really familiar with their operation. However, as to a clockwise turn raising the blade, that would happen with a regular threaded rod. Lowering it would require a left handed thread, in which case the JKM is not the odd-ball. I could be wrong, of course. I've never actually held a router plane. ;)

[@HopeStreetWoodworks]

I don't think the controversy is about Jkatz producing his own tools. The controversy is about Hongdui stealing the base design from Veritas. Let's be honest, it's not a Jkatz tool. It's a hongdui tool. And they've ripped off other companies like Bridge City tools Kerf maker. They clearly have the ability to manufacture a quality tool, but don't have the ability to come up with an original design? The other problem is that if I buy a minimum of 10 pieces of this plane from Hongdui, I can put my own name and logo on it and remove any reference to Jkatz at all, and market it as my own. How much loyalty do you think this company has to Jkatz if I started moving more router planes than he does? It's dishonest. Stealing Veritas's casting design was dishonest. Stealing Bridge City's design was dishonest. And THAT is the problem with that tool, Not that Jkatz is producing tools, I own his dovetail guide, it's a solid product that HE designed. But I'd rather have a crappy Stanley, than a hongdui.

[@mccarthydesign1429]

Hongdui straight up stole Veritas' product photos to use for their knockoff planing stops. If I were Robin Lee of Lee Valley, I would be pissed that anyone would have a relationship with Hongdui and try to pass off their work as innovative.

[@luismigueldominguez5487]

Is very simple....is more easy and cheap,stole the idea....🤷

[@ponyboyc]

Every design is the same as you can shape a base in so many ways. Hongdoi is a manufacturer they are not going to care if you buy some and slap your name on them. Who do you think makes all of the tools? Almost every tool company buys from tool manufacturers and slaps there name on them. Just like you can go straight to a tool company and get a tool. Harbour freight is a perfect example they have multiple dewalt tools with there name on it.

[@AnonymousUser1776]

This is the same problem with Temu tools as well.

[@koomber777]

Bridge City Tools are owned by a Chinese company aren't they? Could it in fact be a licenced product?

[@theenderface7379]

On the "controversy", it doesn't bother me in any way that JKM is producing tools, however, outsourcing the casting automatically excludes it as a tool that I'd purchase. Especially given the pricing is higher than the Veritas and only $20 less than the fully American made Lie-Nielsen. Sorry but no and that's not an elitist view, it's getting what you pay for and when you can spend $20 more and get the Lie-Nielsen or spend less and get the Veritas...

[@TomBuskey]

My 1st new mfg plane was the L-N router. I had made a router with a Veritas blade & later purchased the medium Veritas router to go with it. I like them both. The depth stop slips on both more than I'd like. Paul Sellers and Rex Krugar both have router kits that are worth checking out.

[@Raul28153]

from an engineering position I can explain why the tap set is way better than the screw adjust for depth. It's all about friction and stored energy. Thee tap set approach overcomes the phenomena called "Stiction" in the instant of the tap. Stictioin is term coined to describe stored energy that is held back by friction. In the medical device industry it is a major pain for precision metered delivery systems that use conventional syringes. The syringe rubber boot doesn't move until the amount of force builds up sufficiently to move it and then it moves suddenly and too much. A similar phenomena arises in screw advance systems such as you have there. Because things are not in perfect in-line alignment the tendency for the parts to accumulate lateral accumulated energy and deflect when the screws are adjusted, while the blade tension function is engaged, the energy to move the blade is not expressed all at the same time and that residual energy stored in the bent or cocked components can work itself out and move the blade while it in use.

[@kevinwood9993]

Thanks for sharing, love the cup.

[@davejackson5989]

Just came across this video. Great comparison! I don't understand the controversy with JKM making tools. Virtually every woodworking content producer I've seen have branched into selling tools or products used in the wood workers shop. Rob Cosman, Paul Sellers, James Wright and many more.

[@tacticalskiffs8134]

Great exposition. Pointless topic. Mainly rests on the idea that screw adjustable depth measurements are needed or efficient. Bottom line is that if you wanted to return to a specific depth, as with most things the smart move would be to have more than one router plane. Grab some flea market ones, or some home made ones and set them to the sizes you need and grab them and go. I have a Veritas router and it is great, but the fact it has screw adjustable depth is more a bug than a feature. Say one is working off a depth mark from a marking gauge. I would just throw the tooth in that, and squeeze the slop out, and tighten. Done. Nobody works in tens. I have planes that cut in 3 tens increments, but I am not working those increments. It isn't as if a client has a drawer damaged in shipping and I can just send him a new front and it will fit right in. Everything is in relation to another dimension or part. The ability to dial in a measurement is basically irrelevant. Another reality is that while great work is done today in modern societies, and was done back when metal tools came in, probably the best work ever done was done, and is done with tools that had wooden bodies and were tapped to a measurement. Back in the times of royals or in places like China and Japan today. Basically a bunch of newbies arguing over things they don't understand. Just as with the bride business, you sell stuff to people who are outfitting for the first time. LV doesn't make money selling to woodworking sages, they need people in their stores who haven't a tool or a clue, and those people need a lot of reassurance.

[@timlist4173]

So, how much difference between a Stanley and a Sargent plane?