Justification and Peace or Caveat the debate featuring the arrogance of James White

[@ShawnCook-u4g]

I disagree, Jimmy exposed James' temperament and he showed that James White agrees with Catholics on a lot of things but since he's so anti-catholic he says he disagrees. He also got James White to admit purgatory is a thing.

[@christopherneedham9584]

The issue is that Jimmy had to disagree with the catholic church in order to get James to supposedly agree. What Jimmy defended was not Catholicism, which was disappointing because I was there to see a debate between Catholicism and Protestantism.

[@ShawnCook-u4g]

@christopherneedham9584 then it's just obvious you and Jimmy disagree with what catholicism is. I see a lot of ppl happy and proud about Jimmy's performance. We can never overstate how big was when exposed James on purgatory. That was a huge win in the debate between Catholics and Protestants.

[@christopherneedham9584]

@@ShawnCook-u4g James didn't agree with Jimmy on purgatory, at least, not unless you redefine purgatory away from what a historic understanding of it is. This is the issue that is frustrating. The catholic seems to redefine purgatory to be as benign as an instant purification as soon as one comes into contact with God. And ignore the fact that historically it has been understood as a temporal process that takes years, so even now the common understanding is that prayer for those people can shorten their stay in purgatory. So, Jimmy redefines it to merely standing in the Glory of God, and then uses that to suggest that James agrees with the doctrine. If Catholics simply dropped purgatory and talked about Glorification (which is what Jimmy was describing under the definition of purgatory - or final sanctification) then we would agree. They don't do that though.

[@alpha4IV]

A small correction/clarification. Jimmy was giving the common normative explanation of Purgatory. It is also the Biblical one that we (Catholics) use when people ask "where is purgatory in the Bible." That is "the purifying fire you passthrough" before heaven/God/New Heaven. Also called "the refining fire" in some translations. As there is no time given in the bible for how long it takes to be "refined like Gold" a Catholic is free to speculate it takes as long or as short as their imagination tells them. This ambiguity and silence has been exploited by some less than scrupulous priests & theologians, especially toward the end of the medieval period. On the other hand, if you go back and read the Catholic writings responding to the protestant reformers at that time you will see that Catholics have always defined it as an open question and it is the protestants who were trying to tie it down to a definitive statement (that they rejected). This is an old disagreement & Jimmy is well within the bounds of Catholic dogma & doctrine. But unfortunately, for the audience, James White doesn't want to have a conversation and only wants to argue over his presuppositions of what Catholics believe.

[@benabaxter]

@@christopherneedham9584 It's easy enough to read what the Catechism says about purgatory. CCC 1030 to 1032.

[@davivman6009]

The nature of Protestant and Catholic dialogue has all too often been one of mischaracterizing the opponent’s position. All to often Protestants pretend that Catholics believe they have to earn their way into heaven and conversely many Catholics pretend that Protestants believe that they have free reign to sin as much as they want as long as they have recited the sinners prayer one time. I appreciate Jimmy’s approach that focuses on the meaning of what we believe as opposed to being married to particular terminology. I just wish more Christians would engage these types of ideas and really consider what Jimmy was saying.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

JW - one dies on a state of sin JW - one enters heaven totally purified of sin Yet, JW denies there is a process between death and heaven where we are cleansed of sin. Catholic's have a word for it: purgatory.

[@g.p.ryecroft]

Very well put! For me, that was where Jimmy won the debate. BUT... I was furious with Jimmy for dismissing F.X. Schouppe's classic and definitiive book on Purgatory because "he's not a pope." This new speculation of purgatory being a flash of illumination is heretical, and I was disappointed Aking and Trent Horn earlier promoted it as an all but absolute conclusion.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@g.p.ryecroft Theological consensus has been absent for 2000 years on the topic of purgatory. Some Church Fathers described purgatory as a literal fire, others not. Bishop Barron describes purgatory as being cleansed by the fire of God's love. IDK. We can say: - it is a process, a state of being - where by the soul is cleansed of all sin and inclination to sin. - the duration is unknown, especially in light it being in a realm not covered by time and space as we know it - scripture speaks of the process causing pain to the soul, this is also consistent with Catholic mystics. - in our human body, pain is what the body experiences - there is no teaching that we would rather NOT be in purgatory compared to our current existence on earth. - IMO, we would rather be in purgatory, being closer to God, than in our current existence - I expect us to have a happiness knowing our souls are being cleansed of all sin including the inclination to sin (I don't think we at all comprehend how our sinful nature takes us from the happiness for which we were created).

[@Ternz_TV]

I think Jimmy did great especially about purgatory.

[@account2871]

Watched all the debates, it was like the bare minimum for what would qualify a public human interaction as a "debate." A guy had a timer and then made two other guys talk at each other within its beeps. No structure, no real points made. Total wash for everyone involved. But since the debates were defective by an excess of generality, we got to see the defects of the debaters by generality: we got to see the entirety of both parties' tactical toolbox. James White, unrestricted, revealed himself as someone who measures all things against a vague sense of American conservatism. The state of Israel good. Decentralized authority good. Any positive reference to homosexual bad. He then performs linguistic algebra on these things against the Catholic Church, something otherwise known as "rationalization," and in James White's case, what we may be able to call "theological justification for nostalgia," and thinks he has made a point. James White is no dummy, so he can present it all in a convincing manner to a crowd of boomers who waste time on Facebook complaining about woke beer or whatever tf. Jimmy Akin, unrestricted, revealed himself as someone who is smart enough to bring a gun to a knife fight, but not smart enough to know what a gun is. Every time James would present a knockdown, logical, A + B = C demonstration of how the Pope offended him, JImmy would take another bullet out of the gun and flick it toward James. James would swipe the knife toward the foot, and Jimmy would go for the pistol whip. He wins debates because of the innate fear that the opposition has that perhaps JImmy does know how to use a gun, and is buying time for the right shot (he doesn't, and isn't).

[@g.p.ryecroft]

Wow, loved your analysis of both men! I disagree that White is pro-Israel, however. I watch his Dividing Line podcast and he's no Christian Zionist nor a Dispensationalist. Also, "any positive reference to homosexuality" IS bad, so a shoutout to White on calling out Fiducia Supplicans as the foot in the door for James Martin's rainbow agenda. Jimmy is a loyal footsoldier for the Novus Ordo and as Alpha C suggested, he was employing a tactic to woo back the lapsed Catholics in the crowd

[@ogezpb3927]

Would’ve liked to see some clips. Maybe a link.🤷‍♂

[@alpha4IV]

Links are in the description. I don't do highlights due to an ever changing algorithm and TOS. I do have a watch along stream M-Th where I am less structured.

[@kapmahn]

Not bad arguments from James White. He argued against what the RCC actually says themselves. Jimmy Aykin just didnt seem to knownwhat his own denomination believes and treated the entire thing like a show, not an honest debate.

[@kapmahn]

I have to add, no realistic honest reading of Romans 8 or John 6 will lead to these conflating that those called won't be elect and those elect won't be justified. That's purely unbiblical and a false gospel

[@g.p.ryecroft]

Kapmahn, yeah, Akin represented the new, improved "Church of Nice" that says purgatory is a flash and Hell is empty. Akin knows what Catholicism teaches, which isn't what Francis necessarily teaches, and he chose to put the most positive spin on it. When he said Catholics also believe in "faith alone" (properly understood) I knew he was pandering, but knowingly so. Watch Akin's debrief of the debate. He took it seriously and researched White. He chose a different tact to unsettle White who expected just another SOP Catholic debate like he's had with Matatics, Pacwa, Sungenis et al.

[@Raider66ify]

“Spoke Greek for no reason”….😂 I thought I was the only one who noticed

[@g.p.ryecroft]

Raider, White DID have a reason, and that is to show off his erudition and impress the rubes in the room. He does this all the time and it's nothing but vainglory.

[@Raider66ify]

@@g.p.ryecroft I think ur right. It’s the only explanation .

[@g.p.ryecroft]

Another insightful analysis, though way too hard on Jimmy Akin! His schtick is to disarm his opponents with his folksy demeanor. He's like Columbo, the smartest guy in the room but acting like a dope so the bad guy drops his guard. Not that White was the "bad guy," though he is looking alarmingly like Anton LeVey! White fosters his sinister image as carefully as Akin his laconic cowboy look. It's showbiz. My complaint was Jimmy is fawningly Novus Ordo and toes the Francis line. Yeah, to keep his job at Catholic Answers he has to (see Patrick Coffin). I despised his promoting the fiction of Purgatory being a flash of illumination. That notion counters Mary at Fatima telling Lucia her friend will be in Purgatory until the end of time. His blithe dismissal of FX Schouppe's classic text Purgatory was also an insult. Overall, an impressive win by Akin and a decisive one after Akin backed White to the wall on Purgatory.

[@Justas399]

Dr White is a beast. He rips his opponents apart.

[@N1IA-4]

He only gives the appearance of winning. That is why debates are so difficult to score.

[@michaelhettrick8510]

Really? You're still saying that after the Purgatory exchange?

[@johnchrysostom330]

Beast of the Revelation?

[@thethikboy]

Catholic dogmatism is arrogant by defintion.

[@BaristangMindanaoan-qc6fy]

God bless Akin

[@Justas399]

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1

[@darthkitty6883]

Jimmy didn't even engage in the debate, he gave a presentation that left the Catholics in confusion that hardly anyone showed up for the second night.

[@tadsgirl]

How many people were there the first night compared to the second?

[@darthkitty6883]

@@tadsgirl over twice as many the first night compared to the second.

[@craigsherman4480]

I was not at all confused about Jimmy’s presentation. He gave the Catholic presentation well and being a knowledgeable (In my opinion) Catholic, Jimmy showed how White and many Protestants misrepresents the Catholic position.

[@darthkitty6883]

@@craigsherman4480 Well he wasn't honest about the catholic view of salvation. Catholicism teaches Salvation by faith plus works. Protestantism teaches salvation by faith alone. By going up there and saying we believe the same thing he lied. Also he was supposed to debate the topic not give a presentation.

[@craigsherman4480]

@@darthkitty6883 I am guessing you have not read the Council of Trent, the Joint Declaration on Justification with the Lutheran Church, nor the papal article written by Pope Benedict the XVI which all agree with Faith Alone, as long as that Faith is a Faith rooted in Charity. The reason why we and the Orthodox say that ultimately we are not saved by Faith Alone is because the Bible explicitly rejects Faith Alone, but affirms Faith working through Love. So no, Jimmy Akin was not lying. Your misunderstanding of the Catholic Church is what the problem is. Please take some time to look at what the Church actually teaches instead of listening to non-Catholics or those Catholics who have left the Faith because they never actually understood the Church’s teachings. God Bless