k-pop vs. orientalism: no more than a machine

ways to help Black Lives Matter: blacklivesmatt...
this video essay is about the presence of orientalism pervading narratives about the k-pop idol industry's dark side. while the countless examples of exploitation, bigotry and scandal within this industry must be covered, there is a disturbingly common journalistic approach to pair coverage of legitimate issues in this industry with misinformation and misleading, cynical aesthetics depicting k-pop artists, execs and even fans as unfeeling, unthinking, and less-than-human.
this does not serve to benefit any of the exploited parties discussed; in fact, it is a way in which corporate media entities and corporate social media entities can exploit east asian people and industries through perpetuating an orientalist narrative, which, given the pervasive economic framework of east vs. west that fuels neoliberal capitalism, is both the means to an end and the ends to a mean. instead of relying on orientalist tropes to cover the dark side of k-pop, why don't we approach the k-pop industry with the same humanity and nuance that we approach exploitation with in western industries?
script and narration by Elliot Sang
editing and art (except for illustrations from the Vincent Chin section) by Danae O.
thumbnail art by Danae O.
Special thanks to
Dr. Crystal Anderson
Kang Haeryun
Lenika Cruz
Music
“pieces” by Elliot Sang
“info” by Elliot Sang
“I remember” by Elliot Sang
“BRODYQUEST” by Lemon Demon (from the homonymous Neil Cicierega classic)
“Arirang Jazz” by Yohan Kim (on KZbin: • Arirang Jazz by Yohan Kim )
Clips from
VICE Investigates, “K-pop Machine”
“How Documentaries Lie to You” by Quinton Reviews
Blade Runner (1982)
Lost in Translation (2003)
Sex and the City 2 (2010) trailer
The Simpsons season 22 episode 467, “MoneyBart”
“Chinese Professor” by Citizens Against Government Waste (KZbin)
Joe Biden ad from April 18, 2020
The Kingdom (2007) official trailer #1
Cowboy Bebop (1998) opening
“There's something spreading faster than the coronavirus...racism” by USA TODAY (KZbin)
“Britain’s Chinese community faces racism over coronavirus outbreak” by South China Morning Post (KZbin)
Ashita no Joe, episode 1
“World is Mine” (live) by Hatsune Miku
Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters, episode 128
Pokémon: Indigo League opening
Detroit: The Bankruptcy of a Symbol via DocsOnline
Who Killed Vincent Chin? (1987)
Vincent, Who? (2009)
The Untamed
“’Parasite’ Wins Best Picture” via Oscars (KZbin)
Mass Effect 2
“Is Philosophy Just White Guys J3rk!ng Off?” by Philosophy Tube
“Why is My Curriculum White?” via UCL (KZbin)
“The Late Capitalism of K-pop” by Cuck Philosophy
“Boy With Luv” by BTS
The Supremes, “Stop in the Name of Love” (live at the Hollywood Palace)
Kendrick Lamar, “DNA”
Gravity Falls, episode 17, “Boyz Crazy”
“Instagram” by Dean
“eight” by IU (feat. SUGA)
“Rollercoaster” by Chung ha
“You Are” by GOT7
“DDU-DU DDU-DU” by BLACKPINK
“Cheer Up” by TWICE
“Move” by Taemin
“+REWIND170205+” by CL
“Missing You” by BTOB
“Nap of a Star” by TXT
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[@liron5889]

do people forget that most american pop music is the result of intense collaboration between songwriters, producers, and performers? yes, sometimes people write their own music but why do we pretend collaboration is a bad thing when a) it's the norm worldwide and b) it allows for more inventive work? no one's hiding the work of writers and producers, but to ignore the fact that idols are tremendously hardworking, passionate, and talented performers in order to paint them as "lazy" and "fake" because they don't do yet another unique discipline required in music-making is absurd. and racist.

[@winwinnie4905]

yES

[@poppagBallZ97]

Melody Rose wait I’m curious to know why it’s racist 🤔 can you explain? If you don’t want to, that’s okay.

[@liron5889]

Broken Hotdog it’s a double standard as explained in the video

[@Shay45]

Western artist will sometimes lie about their participation in their music. They get made fun of for having others write their lyrics. People have "secret writers" because like you said it is seen as a bad thing in the west

[@liron5889]

@@Shay45 you're right and it's BS !! UGH !! songwriters and producers are a really important part of the industry and have a totally different skillset than performers and that often makes songs better !! ugh i hate it

[@firerat_]

no one seems to realized that everyone is manufactured?? like bru you go to a school 12 years and if u dont is illegal, we have no control over what we have to study. ofcourse you can drop out, but no one is going to hire a self-tought. being a trainne is no diferent of studying science or a conservatory

[@MAjaLeahHB]

in my country there are "trainee systems" for almost every profession. these "trainees" make little money, study part time in schools specific to their fields and also work for companies who invest a lot to train them. they will work and study hard to proof themselves in to their company, so they can have a future career there. since 2020 trainees in korean entertainment aren't allowed to have a trainee period longer than 3 years in the same company, we have literally the same rule in my country. the reason why people here still think of kpop like this crazy manufactured machine is because the media will portray it this way

[@litvenplayosu]

And DON'T get me started on acts like the Vienna Boys' Choir and elite ballet schools in Europe. Now THAT is manufactured.

[@wheresmyeyebrow1608]

Products are manufactured because they're created for the sole purpose of selling for profit with everything else being add-ons People however, at least in the Democratic world, grow up in pluralistic societies where Governments only really wish you to obey the law and contribute to the economy in some way * and have access to almost all the world's information that's available online and have the ability to debate and interact with anyone else online also The whole point of this video was that labelling KPOP or Asians in general as 'manufactured' dehumanises them so I just don't that that's a good place to fit them. You can't sit there and tell me that the kids who used wikipedia for their high school essays and the dropkicks at the back of the class who didn't listen were both 'brainwashed'

[@usualavantgasp]

now THAT'S a statement

[@claragerhardtdavid6802]

@@MAjaLeahHB I actually got really interested in your comment. Where are you from?

[@cassandra-]

I find it funny how locals pretend to care about and sympathize with idols after watching some mediocre videos like "the dark side of kpop 😱" , then proceed to make homophobic and racist jokes, call them flops, make fun of their language, bully their fans, etc.

[@auau2978]

whenever locals make reaction vids and hop onto the trend of "first time reacting to", it makes me cringe bcos they're all judgemental n complains abt language, but they're the ones using kpop for clout

[@cassandra-]

@@auau2978 and yet a lot of kpop fans still give them views... i hate it here

[@Zara-vv8sn]

literally what h3h3 did

[@bye-ray-2389]

Exactly

[@paullu5139]

If you want to see a another rather recent effect of orientalism. Just look at Logan Paul's trip to Japan. He talks so much about how Japanese people are "kind and respectful". But yet he takes advantage of it to act like an asshole. I had to stop the video when he threw the coins in the temple. I really hate this negative stereotype that Asian people are polite and kind (almost emotionless?) people. This would be great if it was framed in a positive way but it's not. It makes us look like we're weak people whose kindness can be taken advantage of which Logan Paul really made it seem like through his video. Imagine the effect this has had on his audience of young impressionable people.

[@igu4443]

On the flip side, I've definitely heard a bit of " you asians don't care about anything, they're so rude, cheap, dirty..." etc. etc. Even though what I've heard is the exact opposite its intentions are still to dehumanize Asians. those who always approach an entire culture based on stereotypes. hell sometimes people subconsciously have two stereotypes/impressions that contradict each other and honestly if we just *think* a little bit more we can see that oh wait its situational/we're not so different. it scares me that that there's so many people who don't understand that we're all just human. that thinking is honestly what lead to the shitshow that was logan paul's trip to japan.

[@daezyagbakoba6694]

I remember those horrible vlogs. You should have seen him take fish from a Japanese market and run around the streets with it and shove it into people's faces. And then he eventually dumped the fish onto the back of a taxi, which then drove off, as the driver was not aware he put dead fish on the back of the car. Those vlogs made me so angry to see how little respect some Western people have for Asian people/cultures in general.

[@thapoint09]

@ExtraSwirl It's a better stereotype than what Americans in general get. I'd _kill_ to be thought of as unfailingly polite.

[@MAjaLeahHB]

another aspect of this. in my sisters former school there were a few girls who fetishised asians. it was really gross. they will literally give every asian man who is mildly interested in them their phone number. and they were minors. they would flirt with men that were like 10 years older. of course it's always the adults responsibility to brush them of but they were easy to take advantage of because they had the stereotype that asians would treat them with respect

[@nm9688]

@@igu4443 that is aimed towards non Japanese, aka Filipinos, South Asians, Chinese etc. Because to neckbeards Japan is the country their anime waifus come from

[@bucca2]

I just want to put out another counter for people who pretend that they care about the mistreatment of kpop idols and say "oh they look so tired" "they look abused" 1. Fans are usually on the frontlines of idol mistreatment. In fact, they are so overzealous that they even mischaracterize not getting lines or good outfits as mistreatment. 2. You are stripping these idols of their autonomy. While some idols are minors , many of the biggest players are older. BTS and Twice are in their 20s. EXO is filtering through the military (something required of Korean men BY THE AGE OF 30). They are adults who can make their own decisions and can definitely tell when something amiss is going on. Take the recent example of Day6's Jae. Take the tragic example of Mina from AOA. They stood up for themselves and succeeded. Do not infantilize idols. They do not need your help if you are unwilling to be productive and do something other than make smarmy comments on twitter. 3. White saviorism!

[@ctrl.f]

THIS 👏

[@laurennn316]

Oh thank god for this

[@theabyssofjin3372]

Some people shitting on something just for the sake of it. Every industry has their own bad side, those non kpopers paints K-pop fans as someone who support the mistreatment. When we even bitching about small cut or "simple" outfit.

[@poppagBallZ97]

bucca2 can you explain the third one I’m a little confused, sorry 😐

[@LM-ix7pk]

What does white saviorism has to do with anything?

[@Eunseo2984]

No wonder the comments "It's all manufactured" bothered me so much more than other comments like "the music is shitty" or something. I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't pin it down.

[@bunnywavyxx9524]

they only hate the music because it's made by Asians. "they all look the same" plastic surgery" robots" it's all a call to the ideal that the west is superior.

[@LM-ix7pk]

bunnywavy xx or people just genuinely don’t like the music... it’s ok if someone doesn’t like kpop. Many of my family members don’t like kpop because they don’t understand it and they can’t sing along, and I totally understand that.

[@lunaxzo2431]

LM bruh how u not gonna like music because it’s not in a language u know when western rappers be rapping in English but don’t tell me u acc understand that 💀 and don’t get me started on people who bopped to despacito despite not speaking Spanish. I dont even speak Arabic yet I occasionally listen to Arab music because their tunes be fire. it’s completely ok if u simply don’t like the tunes in kpop like ye I get it but the others be avoiding kpop cuz they’re “manufactured” “Asian” “cringe” because that’s what everyone hears nowadays.

[@emitheorbit1118]

@@lunaxzo2431 The worst thing is that if you read the lyrics of despacito, it's just lirical porn like 99% of Latin American music, which makes me feel so lucky of discovering K-Pop in a country plagued with sex songs and people who use way too much autotune.

[@4eva643]

@James Henry Smith i saw you in another comment thread. I don't still understand what you are trying to say.

[@michelle5900]

I hate the way media insists that K-pop is manufactured. It's literally the same way people go to university to learn skills for their future career. Its not manufactured!

[@JoshuaAlto]

@Think TWICE Yeah. We'll just ignore the media & focus on the real issues.

[@dragonrj1233]

@The Marvelets Elitestan not all groups, BTS, mamamoo, gidle and other groups are not like that 🤙🏻 so we should not generalize.

[@njamh105]

@The Marvelets Elitestan Though these problems are real for some idols, we should stray away from trying to generalize the entire industry in that way. Also, a lot of these issues present themselves in different ways in other industries.

[@ledora9078]

@The Marvelets Elitestan you’re probably not gonna read this, it ended up longer than I thought but... Bruv have you seen Big Matthew from kard? That dude has no filter, and I could name many more artists that don’t hide under some persona. And you also have to take into account how korean media is different and things like for example swearing on a show can be frowned upon. A lot of companies do not force the things you’ve listed upon idols, in fact, people audition and sign up for the trainee system. Although there are some companies that are foul and abusive, that doesn’t mean generalize the entire industry because abuse is not common among all companies. Many of the groups I stan have full creative control over their music and even put themselves together before they debuted, they just all trained to get better at their craft and fulfill their dream. That’s why you’ve really got to get into some groups to learn about them and see how many of the things outsiders cover in the industry are just common misconceptions. Once again, the issues you addressed do happen and have happened, but it is not an accurate representation of the entire industry and not even a large portion of it either.

[@ledora9078]

@The Marvelets Elitestan Well I’d like to know where you’ve learned this so you can inform me I guess if that’s really the case because from what I’ve seen, it isn’t.

[@alequintana5294]

It would be super interesting to do a deep dive into de misoginistic connotations in how media and the general public dismiss kpop because it is for "teenage girls" even if this group of people can hold a lot of power (i.e: BTS)

[@paullu5139]

Or maybe even talking about how Western media paints Asian men as "less desirable" because they are more "feminine"

[@ultraagilao4026]

Yes, that’d be an incredible video. I’ve seen that one of the main reasons people shit on BTS (especially on reddit) is because they think that only teenage girls like them, and they use that to conclude “if teenage girls like them, their music must be shitty and they only like them for their looks” but of course, reddit is a dumpster fire of toxicity and also has plenty of other problems with sexism and misogyny so evidence of this behavior from other social media would be useful.

[@variant_hero]

Paul L I’d really like that too! my friends and family always ask why I like bts and talk about how less masculine Asian men are and it’s always followed by old stereotypes.

[@variant_hero]

Ale Quintana I agree!!! and the fact that if it’s something that women are usually more into it’s bad, while things that men are into is completely fine and normal

[@imsinkingfast]

Ah but that's just it. It isn't Kpop that is being dismissed so much as it's the perceived fan base of "young females" who's tastes and opinions that are being dismissed. This isn't new. It has been the case for generations, from the "hysteria" of fans of Elvis Presley to "BeatleMania" and all the way thru to Duran Duran, Nsync, MCR; where the media focus is always on teenage girls screaming and crying at the sight of their 'Idol', it reinforces the message that these are simply 'overly emotional, hormone imbalanced teenagers experiencing their first crush' and so, as 'mature, serious adults' we couldn't possibly admit to liking it ourselves or be associated with it and thus it must be brushed aside and treated as 'other', not important or worthy of praise as that would reflect poorly on 'us' (being in most cases adult males who probably desperately don't want anyone to look up 'sports fans' in google image because... yeah, talk about crazy 'fans' lol). I totally agree though that this would be a very interesting subject to cover, if not important because until fans know they are actually fighting the wrong battle, nothing will ever change.

[@coralf5]

This looks super interesting The thing is people also won't pay attention to actual k-pop fans and dismiss us as delusional little girls who don't know anything. We try to educate them, but people only listen to the media and not the actual people who know about it. :(

[@leonardopessanha5128]

But it is little girls. Is like Bieber fan, what's the difference. Next gen this group will like other thing, that's normal

[@michylol]

@@leonardopessanha5128 theres also actually a lot of young adults and older adults who are into kpop. yes a big part of the fandoms are "little girls" but its not just that

[@leonardopessanha5128]

Fair enough

[@la_11.63]

Leonardo Pessanha If I may add in a respectful manner, majority of the fandom is above legal age. Let’s take BTS’ fanbase (bc they’re the most recognizable), their fanbase’s age demographic have the majority on 19+ with even fans in their 40’s and 50’s. Even Jungkook outsold a wine bottle that I’ve heard is around $100+ (Merlot March by Umani Ronchi Vigor Sangiovese). I do agree that teenage girls are slowly becoming the majority, it’s still clear that young adults are still winning the age demographic. I wish you all the best :)

[@lachi8242]

​@@leonardopessanha5128, another thing I want to add is that "kpop fans" includes many different fandoms with different age and gender demographics all smashed into a single title. So when you narrow down a kpop fan to a teenage girl without knowing the fandom they come from, you are stereotyping and generalizing based on your previous notions of who pop music fans tend to be. Some examples of kpop group demographics: 1. Bigbang - known to have an even split of male and female fans with the most fans within a 20-30 year age range (51%). 2. Twice - most known for their staggering amount of fanboys with over 60% of the fanbase meaning male. The majority of their fans are in their teens and 20s. 3. BTS: most known for their very even split of age ranges (24% 10-19 year olds, 26% 20-29 year olds, 19% 30-39 year olds, and 27% 40-49 year olds) with a large number of fans being female (76%). 4. Izone - If you thought Twice had a large amount of fanboys, Izone's fanbase is made up of about 80% males with age demographics similar to Twice.

[@pj.is.digital]

I'd love to see a kpop documentary from an actual fan or at least someone with better intentions. Not some outsider who constantly tries to act like they're in a nature documentary, examining the industry using a high-res zoom lens.

[@ZZ-bz9wr]

You could check out Dive Studios. It's not documentaries by any means but it is real kpop artists discussing various aspects of the industry. For example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnbVhquFqKhofNU

[@emitheorbit1118]

@James Henry Smith Ladies and gentlemen, we got here a butthurt local.

[@lillabukovacz8195]

Elliot i sent your ‘you’re wrong about kpop’ video essay to one of the most influential journalists in my country, Hungary. he wrote an article about the suicides and scandals of kpop, presenting the whole industry as something that is deeply rotten and as something that must be stopped, and i tried to tell him how it’s harmful for the actual korean artists and the fans of kpop. he replied immediately and said that he will give your video a chance. i just want to say thank you, because i’ve never seen anyone who covers these topics so objectively and perfectly as you do, and i’m glad someone has already done the research and continues to do so, so we can educate people with your videos 🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@adriennpasku2602]

meg tudod mondani hogy kiről van szó? nem nagyon olvastam kpopról magyar cikkeket eddig.mondjuk nem lep meg ha negatívan írnak róla, tekintve hogy mennyire visszamaradott ez az ország,még a mi generációnk is(feltételezem 15-25 között vagy). pl próbáltam 23 éves nővéremnek mutatni bts-t és csak arról beszélt hogy mennyire nőisek. csalódtam benne,, hiába tudtam hogy azt fogja mondani

[@lillabukovacz8195]

Adrienn Pásku szia, sajo david irt egy cikket “halálra szereti a világ a koreai popsztarokat” címmel az indexnek. szóval a befolyasossagnal nem konkretan rá gondoltam, hanem az indexre, csak ezt fölösleges lett volna egy kommentben túlragozni:)es szerintem pont azért annyira zart a generacionk és a tarsadalmunk az egész temara, mert ezek a népszerű mediumok meg mindig azt a nezopontot lovagoljak meg, hogy milyen szörnyű, embertelen ez a koreai popipar, és nem neznek bele abba, hogy nyugaton se sokkal jobb a helyzet. vagy hogy a kpopban is van rengeteg olyan példa, ami kulonleges, érdekes, és kifogasolhatatlan, ha a muveszek egeszsegerol van szo(pl a bighit külön figyelmet fordít a mentalis egeszsegre, onallosodasra, a művészek szabadsagara, mindent megtesz, hogy a gyulolet ne erje el az eloadokat)amúgy én is 23 leszek nemsokara, és nagyon sokáig nem voltam hajlando rá se nezni a bts-re az eloiteletek miatt, és így utolag nagyon banom:( mert tudom hogy nagyon szerettem volna már évekkel ezelőtt is. és nehéz a kornyezetemben lévőkkel most szót erteni ezzel kapcsolatban, mint ahogy neked a novereddel, de probalok mindig higgadt és informatív maradni, és beszélni arról, hogy én miért vagyok oda annyira az egészért, mi benne az erdekes. pl ez az éveken at húzódó storyline/alternativ valosag, és a kepzomuveszeti, szepirodalmi intertextualitas, építkezés a pszichologia tudomanybol,amit a bighit művel, szerintem tok ismeretlen a nyugati popiparban. ezek miatt nagyjabol sikerult megértetni a szüleimmel és a barátaimmal, hogy miért értékes az egész, te se add fel:)

[@adriennpasku2602]

@@lillabukovacz8195 ránéztem a cikkre és hát igen tükrözi az amerikai nézőpontot. az az egyik legidegesítőbb dolog az ilyen cikkekben hogy mint ahogy mondtad hanyagolják megemlíteni hogy ez nem egy teljesen egyéni dolog, mivel minden ország zenei iparának van negatív oldala, amellett meg egy furcsa érthetetlen jelenségként kezelik. én is úgy vettem észre hogy mostanában egyre több company kezd foglalkozni az idolok megvédésével. pl amit bighitről mondtál, sokan nem értik hogy a kreatív önállóságuk és a személyiségük hatalmas része a sikerüknek. én 21 vagyok és viszonylag nemrég kezdtem igazán érdeklődni kpop iránt( főleg bts, mivel az ő zenéjükkel azonosulok a legjobban), de egy ideig én is kerültem. főleg azért mert mint a legtöbb ember én is azt hittem hogy kpop csak cutesy meg vidám-amivel nincs baj, csak nem az én ízlésem. szóval átérzem a szitudat:D tesómnak meg mutattam néhány dalt, de nem az ő stílusa, ami ellen meg nem tehetek:) talán később újra próbálom

[@jungkooks_microwavephobia]

please do an update in a few months I hope he is a decent journalist and willing to correct mistakes

[@lillabukovacz8195]

Adrienn Pásku na szerintem nagyon hasonlo a talalkozasunk az egész jelenséggel, én se nagyon foglalkozom mas eloadokkal, csak veluk. bár nagyon sok csapat zenejet hallgatom, és sokmindenkinel ledobbentem, hogy milyen gazdag, színes a mondanivalo és mennyivel tartalmasabb, mint amit hittem regebben az egeszrol. és szerintem nehéz azt mondani, hogy a bts nem a stilusa valakinek, mert legalább 6fele zenei mufajban alkotnak, és ezeket keverik, de mondjuk emlekszem, hogy egy éve hallottam a bwl-t, dna-t, és rogton azt mondtam, hogy ez szörnyű. most pedig napi szinten hallgatom mindkettot, és ebben szerintem hatalmas szerepe van annak, hogy tudom hogy nem egy üres cutesy vidám szinjatek az egesz. de persze ezzel nem azt mondom, hogy erőltetni kell bárkire is, nagyon sok ismerosom van, aki rogton rávágja, hogy ez nem jon be neki, de sokaknál tudom, hogy ez abszolut azért van, mert gaz, hogyha valakinél kiderul, hogy köze van a kpophoz, mert rogton buta uresfeju rajongokislanynak van belyegezve.

[@naanie97]

After watching your video essays, I can't help but think about this one interview with BTS (It's radio disney 2017). The interview happened years ago but the clip was only released in 2020 probably because yoongi's answer didn't fit the narrative they were trying to achieve- White interviewer: How does American pop compare to K-pop? Yoongi: it's just music, it's the same, the same

[@naanie97]

I just went back to watch the interview again and they turned off they comments, I wonder why...

[@sole7816]

damn yoongi spiting out *facts!!* and this is what i tell everyone who ask me what’s kpop; “what’s kpop?” “just like music here, but in korean.”

[@lachi8242]

Think TWICE, just foreign media in general, not just western reporters. I remember watching a French reporter complaining about BTS’s use of make up and fashion choice as well as saying that they’re clones of each other.

[@sole7816]

@James Henry Smith wait what? what’s your point? (not meant in a rude way, it’s just i cant tell what you’re trying to convey) all i’m saying is music is music no matter the language; like kpop is pop but in korean, jpop is pop but in japanese, cpop is pop but in chinese, etc...

[@emitheorbit1118]

@@sole7816 Leave him alone, he's a butthurt local.

[@_bear_melody]

Recently a reporter(?) talked about the oh so bad kpop industry on german television(sat.1), saying "they all look the same" multiple times throughout the video. Fans tried to point out to her that that is something that you shouldn't say and that what she said puts the KPOP industry in a very bad light. The reporter however didn't think that anything she said was wrong because after all idols get surgery to look like that one ideal all asian people have thus they all look the same. You could clearly tell that she just found out about kpop's "dark sides" by the way she talked so eagerly about it. She was definitely a fish thrown into the water. I couldn't understand how she couldn't understand what was wrong with her statement but after this video I think I know why she is thinking like that. And it pains me to know that we will have to continue to listen to these peoples unshakeable opinions over and over again and them never accepting another viewpoint. (English is not my first language so if I made any mistakes I'm sorry)

[@mylovechoerry2233]

Half of the Hollywood celebrety have had suregy

[@waynemackinnon3918]

'They all had plastic surgery', 'they all look the same', 'they were just picked because they are goodlooking, not because they are talented'(a not so subtle 'they have no talent'), ''they all sound the same', and the flipside, 'they are the second coming of christ', nobody is as talented as my bias'', they are mistreating my bias by 1. not giving enough lines, 2. giving them the worst outfits, or 3. they're not on camera all the time, like they deserve to be'. are two sides of the same coin, negative or positive fetishizing of asians. Of course the western media is going to badmouth and stereotype kpop, because it's threatening to take income from western popmusic (they took our jobs!) and the news and information media depends on that income as well. Of course it's also just stupid, for example "they all look the same." excuse me, but just no. I can clearly distinguish different asian/black/white/native/poc people from each other, even when two people of the same race/ethnicity whatever look similar, without even trying! so I call b*llsh*t! Oh, and also by the way, if they all had plastic surgery, then the western artists need to go to South-Korea now, because those surgeons do an amazing job, compared to western medicine in that regard!

[@theobsidianparade5726]

I completely agree with this - its awful and unnecessary (and your English is really good by the way ) ^^

[@cassandra-]

@@waynemackinnon3918 All those criticisms basically all boil down to xenophobia, and when it's called out by fans, they're dismissed as "hysterical fangirls". imagine if Western media actually took kpop seriously.

[@strawberrylemonade3391]

Wow, English isn't ur first language and you wrote a whole Essay (a very valid one too). You go girl!🙌

[@pj.is.digital]

I loved what Dr. Anderson says about how most people don't even listen to or understand k-pop. We (fans) say this everyday, but no ones wants to listen to "stans w/ kpop boy pfps".🙄 I'd hope anyone who still peddles that "evil dark k-pop industry" narrative would at least listen to a scholar. However, I think we know by now that these people just don't care. Most of them don't want to learn. They just want to provoke and troll people over a damn music genre. The thing is we know there's issues in the industry, we're not stupid. Even if we show the slightest disagreement with negative k-pop takes, suddenly painted as brainwashed teenagers. I'm just so tired.

[@senmeii]

Same bub, same. I stopped trying to argue with these people now, I just let it slide. If they prefer to stay in their ignorance, rather than learn, it's their loss, not ours.

[@daezyagbakoba6694]

I'm glad there's a word for it: techno-orientalism, because it's so infuriating to see Western people continuously talk over actual Asian people and try to pretend that they're saving them when they don't need to be saved. Great video as usual.

[@heoniebee9566]

Last night Spotify put some rando’s song on the Jonghyun memorial playlist and when they got called out on it they went “oops, our bad, any way stream this other group’s song since they’re all interchangeable ammirite?”

[@user-qm8gt8lf7l]

yea i saw that too and was honestly so disgusted like :// ig they were tryna b like "hey guys come look at us we like bts!!!! pls use our app!!!" but the whole thing was just rly tone deaf and disrespectful

[@kimmy2409]

Im glad they all called out this person. It was so disgusting and it's really not okay to do something like this.

[@ameliaclement5466]

Ya like they literally brought up stay gold for no reason like no we are going to stream it bc they were being disrespectful to jjong :/

[@pj.is.digital]

Yea that was beyond messed up. Most replies I saw from spotify's tweet were shinee fans getting mad at bts fans. I felt like spotify wanted to cause some kind of drama.

[@heoniebee9566]

autumnaljulia Racism in programming/tech is also a thing. People bring their biases into their coding. The fact they automated a message for ALL korean pop artists, because “hey, what’s the difference” in itself is orientalist. They’re a company dedicated to music...but felt it was okay to make an automated message where they just slapped on the most popular current artist, which they use for a specific nationality of people who they’ve lumped into the same ‘genre’ when it’s not even agreed that ‘kpop’ is a genre at all.

[@Cla226]

Before i started listening to kpop i would see all this videos about the dark side of kpop and i thought i will never listen to it cause i don’t want to support this horrible industry. But when i actually started to listen to the music and started to do research i realised that it was just like any other music industry in the world with it’s good and bad parts, and that there were positive parts which they were never shown in the videos.

[@yorukaadams940]

Let me smack the guy who said Tiffany's smile was completely mechanical.

[@emitheorbit1118]

Hearing that Tiffany herself did that would be probably the most viral thing in the K-Pop community. And epic for me.

[@Ruby_Spacek]

I made a video on k-pop awhile ago and someone left a comment on how it’s hypocritical for me as a leftist to stan k-pop because of the exploitation....because we all know exploitation in the entertainment industry is unique to Korea right?🤔

[@rimirimi8877]

"That it's so much less original" *shows TXT 's nap of a star*

[@happyhappy685]

*Triggered*

[@LetsSaboogi]

The passive aggressive sarcasm was what I lived for

[@dittokyu]

Yeah I've often thought so many of these arguments of kpop as 'manufactured' and 'perfect' come off extremely techno-orientalist. That people of the 'east' are robots without feeling. Despite the fact these systems and images also exist in the 'west'. The 'west' is incredibly threatened by the success of the 'east', and thus portray them in negative techno-orientalist lights to maintain their status as superior. Anyway, you always seem to make video essays that perfectly encapture my thoughts on these topics 😅 Thank you for the great work!

[@pinkgangsta6157]

Kpop audition - Test for school Kpop agency (trainee) - university Debut - You pass the test/exam Idol - worker This is like normal form in society

[@naanie97]

Yes! Exactly! Also all forms of artistry have this format too. Why would art, dance and music schools/colleges/universities exist? All those creatives train for years before they get to work as professionals. The narrative that the art is only creditable if the artist comes from an independent/indie background is bs tbh

[@LynnHermione]

Ballet schools are even more appropriate, yet nobody accuses the Royal Ballet of being robots...

[@angelaw6812]

Some Americans go "kpop is so manufactured" as if American music ISN'T the IRONY

[@toodie535]

what puzzles me musically right now is the nationalistic twinge to the label Americana/Roots music (full of kids from Toledo faking a backwoods accent)

[@Cmuse55]

THANK YOU FOR THIS. Literally everyone I talk to believes the entire kpop industry or just Asians in general are like robots and also assume all the kpop fans are delusional little girls that don't see the bigger picture when we are the ones who see and know exactly what goes on. Yes, some of us are not from Asia, but we mostly know how the industry actually works because we took the time to understand it, to listen and watch so much content. The thing that bothers me the most is how people don't even care to see for themselves how kpop actually is just so they can stick to their false image of it because it's the most comfortable for them to think that way. I wish more people would watch this.

[@emj602]

I sent this to my dad and really asked him to watch this a rethink his biases because whenever I try to bring up kpop he will somehow bring up the “manufactured” shit and makes me muy uncomfortable.

[@liz257]

I did a (UK) college project on the way kpop is dealing with mental health and LGBT stuff and lots of weird things happened. My mentor suggested I focus on the negative aspects of the industry instead of the positives. When I had finished my speech and got asked questions (by a room of white teachers) one of the questions I was asked was "Why do you think that it is harder to talk about these issues for Koreans?" He wouldn't accept my answers until another teacher suggested collectivism and his face lit up literally. It was so weird at the time I didn't know why it felt so uncomfortable - but now I realise it was the forced narrative, they already had the answer they wanted.

[@marialuisaoliveira1009]

This has nothing to do with the video, sort of, but as a South American I hate it when people from North America, mostly from the USA, refer to themselves as "Americans". It may not look as a big deal for you, but this small linguistic act helps to spread the notion of the United States supremacy and superiority over other American countries, which has long suffered from political interventions and are victims of neo-colonialism. Just wanted to point this out, but great video, by the way.

[@marialuisaoliveira1009]

Think TWICE I’m not blaming him. Just wanted to point it out. 🧡

[@marialuisaoliveira1009]

AW I think it’s important to understand how a language can hold power. I’m not sure how else they could refer to themselves either, but in Brazil we refer to them as “estado unidenses”.

[@JD-xm4uf]

I see thi around a lot but it would very difficult to change, at least from what I know. The US isnt the only country that calls the citizens Americans, Many countrues in europe does as well. Japan refers to the US as, A-me-ri-ka. I hear what you say but i don't see any way for people to change that easiy when so many people use that name.

[@barbaraandrade5115]

Yess I'm brazilian too I AGREE SO MUCH. I have heard many stories of South Americans who went to exchange in the United States. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misconception, many don't know almost nothing and I don't think they study at school about Central/South American cultures. I've seen many of us being stereotyped...

[@LynnHermione]

So much yes. America es un continente, no un pais.

[@RC-gt3lb]

Right, so how are we going to get everyone to watch this...

[@emitheorbit1118]

Our work as fellow K-Pop fans who actually care about our idols' general health, we must put the links of this video in "Dark Side of K-Pop 😱" comments.

[@seraphywang4638]

Spam

[@marshmallow927]

Im putting this under any comment/reply on ppl who say the generic shit abt the korean idol music industry

[@seraphywang4638]

@@marshmallow927 Ok

[@samedi7610]

@@emitheorbit1118 I'll join you.

[@reoij]

There is also another thing that bothers me (I don't know how much it bothers others but anyway). Whenever those reaction channels react to kpop mvs and they hear an english word they get so surprised like "Whoah there's englishhhh" "WHOAH is that EnGLiSh" "THEY SAID AN ENGLISH WORD? WOAH" *like no Susan, "I love you" is clearly chinese, since that's the only language you think asians are capable of speaking* And they also say "omg their english is so good, how??" why are these people so surprised? I really don't understand. It reminds me of when western interviewers tell Mark "oh my goshhh your English is soooo good" like ummm okayyy

[@J4keWasHere]

as a media graduate i was cringing at that documentary, as im sure so many others were. So many basic manipulation tactics even with the camera work to push their motive. Shoutout to Duboc tho actually a good choice for a documentary lead

[@curlythoughts9094]

I loved how this video doesn't deny that there is a "dark side to Kpop" however addresses the fact that we shouldn't generalize it to every aspect and person in the industry. I believe that the over-usage of the term is very disturbing because to the uninformed people this kind of negative approach will not only strengthen their cultural closure but also will paint this distorted and inhuman picture about an industry which like any other has flaws while we forget that at the core of all of this we find some's creation, art, and expression.

[@MhzToinette]

I don't know how I missed this video. Excellent work Elliot. This brought back a lot of memories. In June 1982 I was an almost 13 yr old girl who had been born & living in Detroit all my life. My mother, grandfather & 2 aunts worked for Chrysler back then and the Vincent Chen m*rder & Toyota was discussed quite a bit in our household. My grandfather who served in WW2 & The Korean War did not like the Japanese at all so we heard a lot of rants about them and how they were going to ruin America. I learned a lot from my grandfather and taught him a few things. His rants against the Japanese were because the things they'd done ( invading Korea & the bombing of Pearl Harbor especially) effected him, his family & friends. He had no problem with them being Asian just the things they were doing. I was a quiet kid that only spoke out when it came to others being wronged especially when it came to discrimination and never cared about how a person looked or were they where from when it came to making friends. I fit in comfortably with everyone. I was 17 when when we had an indept discussion about racism and he told me he was wrong for blaming an entire people for the wrongs that those in/with power did. He also admitted that we as Americans shouldn't have blamed the Japanese for the problems the US car industry was having, that the US just needed to step their game up. It's a competitive world. Wherever I went I was called weird for hanging out and interacting with non-black kids. I had started to pull away from my friends and felt that something was wrong with me. This conversation with my grandfather had a huge impact on me as it helped me realize nothing was wrong with me and to stay the course. Everyone needs to realize people are people regardless of where they are from and we're all just trying to live life to the best of our ability.

[@jennyserna4329]

Wow, this made crazy good points. I've seen reaction channels call them "robots" and disregarded their hardwork and achievements. GREAT VIDEO!!!

[@Sai-rp2xt]

Just a small correction: 13:54 the car was not invented in America.

[@k-trash4128]

People always come at me and try to teach me about the issues with Kpop and I ask them if they ever even listen to it and they be like.. uhm yea I watched to 2 music videos and. 3 min video about the dark side of kpop

[@wizz2081]

This should be thought in schools! We live in a globalized society and we should educate ourselves more on these cultural implications. Amazing video!

[@diannaa.62]

I wish this had spanish subs. I wanna show some of my family members who are very ignorant about this topic.

[@Danae_O]

working on it! (EDIT: subs are up)

[@diannaa.62]

Danae O. Oh thanks!

[@lidiasoares4939]

same here but in Portuguese too, if they add English I maybe to the translation to pt

[@demitwice]

@@lidiasoares4939 eu posso tentar legendar em português, só vai levar um tempo a

[@lidiasoares4939]

@@demitwice Sério? Muito obrigada. Leve o tempo que precisar.

[@choerim]

This was really fascinating. While watching the video I couldn't help but wonder what impacted the kpop industry's differences from other industries - do you think you could make a video about that at some point? What I mean is how organized the industry is - the music shows everyone performes in, the fact that mixing of different generes in one song or on one album is completely normal for any and every artist to do, the level of creativity and effort that goes into music videos and how imporant even simple storylines and symbolism are to most of them. Even the existence of channels like ReactToTheK shows that kpop is at a different level in its complexity and creativity from other pop industries. I don't know if there's any way to track the history of music and Korean people and get a straight answer, but it's a topic I'd be really interested to hear more about. All of your videos are really well researched and it's very impressive!

[@pitypang1630]

"dark side of the media industry" wow that was strong

[@user-pn2ly2wv8k]

I am so mad that I didn't discover you sooner. A KZbinr that does intensive research, actually looks at both sides of the argument, AND has a works cited page/bibliography??? Props to you man.

[@wiki400]

Gosh, he really went above and beyond with this video. I always look forward to when you post. Keep it up!

[@youandwhatarmy635]

Wow I had never heard of techno-orientalism before, thank you for the new understanding 🙏

[@pmk7211]

Man, you are so underrated! Your whole youtube channel is a diamond! I hope you will get the recognition you deserve eventually! Can't wait for the next video!

[@MissMariela100]

I think a point where this stereotypical view of Orientalism prevails the most in K-pop is this critique that they look like girls. Because most occidental people have this occidental concept of what the masculine is, that differs greatly of the masculine idea of the east. Masculinity in the east includes dressing fashionably, daily skin care, expressing their emotions, physical close contact with other males that are considered family, and many other things that for some reason seem awkward to "us in the west". And I think it's super interesting to see why we can be atracted to those qualities, also.

[@cloudofreverie786]

Western ideologies projected in to kpop isnt what Kpop truly is. Why would you believe a colonizer over a native? It's only the people in the kpop industry that can truly explain where they're coming from in terms of perspective, viewpoint, and worldview.

[@sofiaisasmendi4075]

amazing as always, i will link this on twitter to anyone arguing that the kpop machine is a monster and we're too ignorant to see it lol, also it blows my mind how everything /always/ gets narrowed down to imperialism and capitalism

[@cartoonplanettv]

lol, i was just looking at part 1 and now i found out this was released 2 hours ago, what a coincidence. I feel special! *Does 'feel special' dance move*

[@bhlasvegas990]

Imagine a Korean reporter coming to America and investigating the dark sides. A whole film crew, with their camera and lights and asking ignorant questions very seriously....the West does this all the time all over the world not just Asia

[@vidhighai9745]

Wow , I have been writing about kpop for a couple of months now.Your video essays and writings have given me a new topic for discusiion.As a student of media and films , your point of Techno - orientalism makes a lot of sense to me and deserves a detailed discussion. This is a thought that popped in my head while watching this essay. We have great examples of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon , Grandmaster (cut down to 108 mins from 130 min) , Snowpiercer , Parasite :which have been whitewashed for the western audience only because they don't like to read. This evolved approach of orientallism is also a big reason for the disregarsd to the Korean artists and music industry , with its resurgence in the present time.This is an artistic colonisation of works that are better or disrupt the ideas of a 'manufactured , plastic or machine culture.'

[@fullofhype]

Your videos need to be viewed more than they have been.

[@ankitamohanty3157]

You all are doing a great Job. I am glad to have found you amidst mindless K-pop reaction channels. I just believe K-pop would be a huge subject of discussion and debate in near future, like how asian culture that had been thoroughly oppressed by Western media came into forefront and broke stereotypes. It's videos like these that would guide us to an articulated knowledge about the matter. Thank you so much!

[@ponparkle3102]

Ankita Mohanty Western media? You’re talking about USA ?

[@ankitamohanty3157]

@@ponparkle3102 yes, precisely. However I still believe it's a long ongoing process

[@ponparkle3102]

Ankita Mohanty Sorry but why you are saying “oppression” ?

[@ankitamohanty3157]

@@ponparkle3102 isn't it oppression when you intentionally use them for clout but no let them grow commercially? Isn't it oppression when you clearly rob the biggest boyband in the world of their credentials?

[@spritenoicy1676]

So much work goes into your videos. Like good lord, you are CRIMINALLY underrated.

[@SAR-re1fx]

Well... there´s another take in Korean pop towards Spain or Latin American , how most of the time think that Spain culture is the same as countries from South American culture, how they mix flamenco with mexican, thinking that all "mediterranean" or "latin" women we sort of are "hot" "passionate" "sexy" "promiscuous" calling us "señoritas" "sexy señorita" and other bullshit. Even in the US asked me if we had electricity in Spain because they thought that we sort of still live in villages like in the middle ages and toros playing all the way around. There are trends in Kpop misrepresenting Spanish, South America and Arabic cultures so I guess is a full circle. All countries see each other exotic or strange, I don´t think nobody can portray a culture accuratley without living there.

[@Danae_O]

(Chilean here) that would be a sign of the US and to a lesser extent other English-speaking countries (plus certain specific European countries like France) historically having far more power and reach over culture and media globally than Asia and Latin America (and Spain to a lesser extent), with the stereotypes coming from the US industry and modern European culture constantly spreading to other places as well. This would also apply to stereotypes about marginalized communities within the US itself, like black people or LGBT+ people. It's all about historical context and power dynamics.

[@giulianaschaerer7140]

The orientalism definition is very interesting and I kinda see this happen a lot for latin america too (I am from a south american country), I see it is a ‘white colonizar’ thing and no culture is safe from this not even not ones as advanced as asian cultures.

[@saminthecity1655]

This was brilliant and enlightening. Thanks for your hard work, Elliot and the gang. I want this to be shared everywhere

[@st3nloona338]

Tysm for these videos! I feel like they’ve really put some of my thoughts into actual well thought out, informative things😭

[@paradisecrack702]

Cosas como estas me hacen sentir agradecida de haber conocido a BTS siendo una adolescente en mi etapa de formación porque gracias a ellos he aprendido a dejar atrás muchos estereotipos (y xenofobia) hacia los asiáticos que de otra forma habrían seguido conmigo de por vida y podrían haber hecho daño eventualmente

[@bl00dp0p5]

Una vez que una ve como nos han lavado el cerebro respecto a otras naciones o culturas las cosas son muy diferentes, se empieza a tener una mayor autonomía de los que realmente pasa

[@emitheorbit1118]

Yo solia tener muchos prejuicios referente al K-Pop, hasta se podría decir que era hater, luego ví un vídeo en el que Danna Alquati de "Mi Problema con la Monja" y ahí salió un vídeo de una chica bailando, la canción que usaba se me hizo pegadiza, y ahí fue cuando escuché mi primera canción de K-Pop: *BBoom BBoom* y no me arrepiento para nada.

[@lala7963]

The thing is, this isn’t just a thing in Kpop. Locals will point fingers at Kpop for being so called manufactured, but it’s literally right under their noses as well. They never make as much of a deal out of it, but the actors you watched growing up on Disney channel were forced to change their appearance and to make sure they fit conventional beauty standards, and they all had fake personas given to them by Disney. Most Disney stars end up with mental health issues and that’s also why we’ve seen so many Disney stars over the years start “rebelling” and being “edgy.” Anyway, that’s just one example of how Western actors can also be manufactured, it also happens in other industries in the West like modelling and music, yet locals will only slander Kpop for it.

[@koreli41]

thank you for this very informative video! i study orientalism and korean studies at my university and I unfortunately never heard of techno-orientalism before your video! i will certainly look into it as it is very interesting! thank you

[@pitypang1630]

this is amazing, absolutely thank you for all that you have covered! it means a lot to have this broader perspective now, and words to identify these things that ive only had a vague feeling of and have been eluding me. really wow

[@mahikamihan]

👏👏👏 Danae for all the illustrations holy those are amazing! 💕💕💕

[@adamalidelacruz]

at 17:44 i think your point is super interesting. "now they're obsessed with catching up with the west." if we look back at medieval times around the 700s to around the 1400s countries in east asia were thriving. they were centers of cultural development and intellectual leaders. europe and the west were struggling heavily with disease and famine and a whole bunch of other shit. i find it so ironic that the west hold the belief that they're culturally superior when for a long time they were dragging behind. it was only until they began to colonize and conquer other places that our perception began to change and east asia began to struggle. (the opium wars, indias colonial rule by the english, imperialism on japan by the americans, etc.) this is the first video that ive seen by you guys and im hooked. im still not done watching, but your arguments and evidence are captivating and really shows your hard work and research. def subscribing!

[@musicislife39]

Would love to watch with the premiere but have work so will watch later, can't wait

[@OliVia-mp6bw]

I am excited to watch this when it comes out!!

[@evavankats]

I wholeheartedly wish that your videos will have millions of views someday and that the general perception of k-pop will be a little better than it is today. Thank you so so much for making these kinds of videos.

[@barbharar]

this is quality content that needs to be shared, elliot you are amazing!

[@chickenlittle_jae7979]

I loveeeeeee your videos sososo much they're so good! Hope you'll do more :) I can't understand why your channel is so unknown and underrated.. there isn't a channel that has videos nearly as good and with such a good research as yours

[@MinervAthena123]

This is such an excellent video! I was not prepared to see a clip of The Untamed in it, but it was a welcome sight!

[@ruby8903]

Thank you so much for this and the other video essays, this one in particular confirms and elaborates this suspicion that I always had, but I didn’t have this much information. Isn’t it ironic how western media has constructed this narrative about manipulated asian artists while turning a blind eye to the very sinister things going on their own music industry. Just yesterday I was reading about Britney Spears and how she’s been a prisoner of her handlers. The woman has had zero autonomy over her own life or career for more than a decade now. She can’t make any decisions without their consent. As far as I know there has never been anything like that within the korean music industry.

[@arcie3716]

The interview with the very end with Tiffany is insane???? The person asked if Tiffany learned how to smile???And when she said that she gets her smile from her father, they called her a "jolt of pure cultural technology" Jesus Christ talk about dehumanizing

[@tanhakate2025]

Hi bby gang. It was a great video. Thank you! As someone who is moderately read on orientalism and has been orientalised in the past, I am aware of when it's happening, but also as someone who does not follow k-pop generally, or idol music specifically, I don't always know to defend my views. For instance, I agree that k-pop is viewed in an unfairly negative light, which perpetuates techno-orientalism, but if someone were to argue with me, I wouldn't have the numbers and facts to defend myself. On the off occasion that I feel a need to defend the view, and there is a genuine desire to learn, I can quickly point them to your videos. However, different cultures are pervasive with such depictions of the "Other" depending on the power relations within those societies. Do you have any thoughts on this: how can we fight the good fight without knowing everything? (lol sorry to sound dramatic)

[@unsuspiciouschannel3940]

it sucks that this doesn't have more views even after 2 years!! it's well-researched and puts into words what i can't. i've never been super into kpop and am just a casual listener, but the way people are so quick to shit on kpop and seem to examine it through a glass wall and treat it as inferior compared to western music has always felt off to me. now i understand why.

[@Marina-ot6re]

Your videos are so good, really well-researched! Now I just need to show them to my brother, that thinks that kpop idols are manufactured and don't care about their fans

[@moonhwi3754]

epic band rendition of arirang at the end is a respectable choice

[@beupiechnik3874]

omg the final line was so epic, gave me goosebumps, congrats on the awesome video

[@alarelius]

this was excellent! once again, elliot, you knocked it out of the park. It's so cathartic for me to watch your videos :) and I loved arirang at the end

[@littlecookie2156]

This is... incredible. Your videos are so informative, and really captivating, they make me think about the thing I didn't usually care so much about. (Especially because English is not my first language, and my brain just doing its best when I watch your videos lol)

[@meifuu__6001]

Also arirang at the end hit so close to home for me 😭

[@vaishnavinayak5917]

Locals will go around telling Kpop fans that your idols are not who you think and that's it's all manufactured without thinking about the fact that it is the same everywhere in the world. They might be marketed different but manufactured personalities are everywhere and that does not mean that you are not allowed to like something.

[@juliamiskiewicz632]

I love how you used Arirang melody at the end ❤️ I see you know The Untamed, I'll be looking on some video essays that includes the matter

[@liqa224]

Thank you so much for this piece. Left me in tears at the end, Im Indian American, when I first moved to the US. The music I grew up with was mocked by my peers as inferior and basic, and as a child I started to believe it. As an adult I find myself in the same spot. I recently got into kpop and was just blown away by the production, messaging, choreography, etc... when I shared it with my friend whom immediately brought up plastic surgery, burning sun, pulled up videos on dark side of kpop. Kpop immediately became a guilty pleasure. Video has given me a lot to think about and research. I have been documenting my personal relationship with kpop in a journal and its becoming more apparent it's all about connection, the kpop structure is just a medium.

[@azchoi7384]

thank you for taking the time and effort to make this video! By far the best video essay I have watched about these topics and really put everything I felt growing up as asian american into words.

[@Phantaula]

yeaah i used to think that way about kpop until i actually listened to it and you know, made the effort to translate the lyrics? (note sarcasm) then i realized that half the west wished they were as creative as the Bts guys are

[@northbelle2317]

Dude I love your discussions and video essays. Like are you a teacher? Because you'd definitely be an awesome one. Cause you're like keeping me hooked and interested throughout the video. You're awesome! Thank you for explaining these things!

[@crstph]

commenting to boost it ppl neeed to see this

[@ThennaryNak]

While this is about K-pop so much of this applies to how J-pop is viewed. The only difference is that J-pop has the additional stigma of how “weird” and “zany” it is. Which is probably why it riles J-pop fans up so much when K-pop fans start acting like they know everything about J-pop when their exposure to it rarely extends beyond Japanese releases by K-pop artists, AKB48 and anime. If even all that. They are the ones who understand the kinds of attitudes others have to liking Asian pop media just as well as J-pop fans yet more often than not when I see a K-pop fan saying anything about J-pop it is to insult it and the people who enjoy it. As someone who likes both J-pop and K-pop it hurts to see that as both have their positives and negatives and don’t need to be forced to compete with each other when they bring something different. And I know there are J-pop fans out there that are no better but it is very telling when you look at J-pop fans and K-pop fans talking about each other’s music and most of the comments made by J-pop fans either and I would consider to be narrow minded. I don’t expect everyone to like both but as this video shows we all must be careful not to let the lenses of Orientalism be the way we view Asian cultures and to be open to learn from people who are invested in sharing their knowledge about them not just trying to sell articles and documentaries about how “different” Eastern cultures are.

[@arinyugrass]

I witnessed the same, I’m only Kpop fan and so, I think we are together J-pop and Kpop (with M-pop) the better at understanding the struggles of each other but...bashes on each other instead? It’s is different yes, but that’s one of the reason why we like it. All together we can stop the stereotypes towards the music that we like and seeing people do nothing but fight really just...upsets me...

[@87silverskies]

This was a really interesting watch (as the other videos have been!) but what made me comment was THE UNTAMED??? In MY informational kpop video???

[@ShortNeckedAlpaca]

This is the first time i've watched one of your videos and i'm hooked! Thank you so much for the intense research done and the objectivism shown in this video

[@lilydove.e]

i love watching your videos. i always learn so much!! thank you for doing such a thorough job!! if you had a podcast, i would definitely be a devoted listener... (i was actually drawing while listening to this!! :>)

[@laur-unstagenameactuallyca1587]

I was one of those ones who looked at kpop from an orientalist perspective, like uplifting it while also degrading it. I even used to write borderline racist comments about Korean fans or Korean netizens as a whole based off (don't flame me) Pann-Choa and NetizenBuzz articles. I'm really ashamed of myself.

[@RC-gt3lb]

So so excited for this video!

[@poneill6]

My bar for K-pop boy band love is high. As a person, mother, woman, and fan, these are the questions I ask: Person - do I feel that I know them well - Are they open & accessible Person - do I want to talk to them Person - do I want to listen to them talk Mother - would I adopt them Mother - would I be proud to introduce them to my own kids Mother - would I have trusted them with my teenage daughters Woman - do they frighten me Woman - is there too much Nietzsche/superman Woman - are they sexy Woman - are they sweet Fan - do I enjoy watching the live performances Fan - do I enjoy watching their dance practices Fan - do I like the MVs visually Fan - are the song subjects varied BTS meets all these criteria with room to spare.

[@leteflondondu92]

let's face it the focalisation of the dark side of kpop is because it's become a threath to american dominance in pop music and they are jealous of the creativty of korean music.

[@lolaeifel4059]

hi! interesting video! theres been a thought in my head recently that I haven't had time to explore. since the BLM movement became so prominent, and tons of passive racism was exposed... i've been wondering, as a kpop fan, if i need to unpack my own attraction to the genre. of course we know about fans fetishizing idols, but i wonder if theres not racism there too, or at least orientalism on the individual level for international fans. i haven't found a lot of conversations about this topic and am not sure where to start. maybe you'd be interested in discussing it?

[@bbygang]

there is certainly the possibility that one can inadvertently hold orientalist narratives of k-pop idols that they stan. this can occur in a number of ways and is quite complicated. but even your enjoyment of a song may sometimes be weighed on your perception of the ethnicity of the people performing the song; sometimes people think certain k-pop songs are funny and cheeky simply because it's an asian person singing a certain way. sometimes people victimize k-pop idols they follow despite no clear indication that the idol lacks the ability to make their own decisions--after all, these are usually adults with agency, and not every misstep they make can be chalked down to being "controlled." so this is definitely something i think we all should unpack in ourselves. just because we are a fan of someone doesn't mean we haven't internalized wrongheaded ideas of them and their culture.

[@naerysaemon]

What an amazing and informative video! I hope this gets seen by more people.

[@O_Ciel_Phant0mhive]

I hope the world sees this. People out here really acting like they know Kpop more than the fans or korean people themselves. It's laughable.

[@Vvvxxloxe]

This video is perfect.....no sugar coating..just plain facts laid out on the list table

[@aggeyboii1753]

Elliot, how are you such a genius at writing and communicating??? Any tips?

[@treepaste3365]

Love your videos so much! Thank you for putting in the research to educate people in a really accessable way. Keep up the good work!

[@meifuu__6001]

Ty for ur hard work elliot much appreciate 💕