misogyny and performative feminism in the kpop community (rant)

[@i-spy9601]

edit: music is from pokémon mystery dungeon if you didn’t enjoy today’s video you clearly hate to see powerful women succeed and are jealous of me 😤 ngl i’m super interested to see how this one will be recieved... judging by your responses to finding out about the topic it sounds like everyone has very different ideas on it

[@i-spy9601]

thank you

[@ctrlr9674]

oh shit i was about to ask about the music, was wondering why it brought such intense nostalgia!

[@i-spy9601]

like half of the comment section including me can relate haha

[@koirasikin]

might be just me being a non-native English speaker but I felt like the music was a bit too loud and distracting during the video! I would appreciate if the music wasn't that loud in your future videos

[@i-spy9601]

no i noticed that too after uploading :( it’s always either too quiet or too loud ughh

[@ecmcm5363]

Oh, and also, girl crush doesn't equal in the slightest to feminsm or girl power. Please stop with that narrative. Looking "badass" while being traditionally attractive, with make up and cool clothing, while having nothing wrong, doesn't add anything to girl power or feminsm. It's at the same level as cute concept, just different clothing and color palette.

[@nicolehernandezmorales4006]

it literally makes feminism and empowerement more of a superficial look rather than a movement and a message, they make it abt wearing combats boots and sassy lyrics and sound,and not about the actual content

[@ecmcm5363]

@@nicolehernandezmorales4006 yeap, and for example, Blackpink, which is the group fans scream feminsm and girl power the most, I know they don't write their lyrics (except some parts of lsg), but taking out the "please love" me and the "uh, we broke up, you idiot, I al so badass" lyrics, which also have zero feminsm to them, the rest of the lyrics is "not like other girls", with instances in which they say "those other girls you had are lesser than me" (not those exact words, I am summarizing the messagw). It annoys me when people say Blackpink's concept is girl power, like, NO, it for sure isn't, maybe is feminsm and girl power written and directed by the perspective and views of a man with a messed up idea of feminsm and females, but come on, have a little more respect for feminsm.

[@GotInterest]

Honestly yes. The only time I've ever really felt like the styling of a girl group member was actually "feminist" was with Amber from f(x). She wasn't sexualized, she wasn't feminine, she was not made up to appeal to the male gaze in any way. It was really powerful to a lot of androgenous and masculine girls to see someone like her up on stage as a full member of a group and show that it was ok to not be feminine. I don't know if I could really give SM full credit for that- if they just had Amber in there to give f(x) a unique element to it, of if she had to fight to dress like that. But the very fact that she was on stage was a powerful statement.

[@ecmcm5363]

@@GotInterest I don't know much about the group, but I have seen some photos. Yeah, it would depend on wether it was a marketing strategy or not, but either way, just having examples of different people helps.

[@professorhistoire5349]

@@ecmcm5363 for me, bp's concept is less about girl power and more about duality. ppl have twisted their concept (with the aid of yg, unfortunately) to some shallow representation of feminism that they forget what bp actually stand for

[@treepteepandey1571]

Made me think back to this one point : Kpop as an industry is mostly treated like trash and not taken seriously because , the racism and xenophobia aside , of the fact that the majority of the audience is teen girls . Ofc now the audience is more diverse ...people of different colour , nationality , age , gender etc enjoy it ...but mostly it's still looked as a female driven fandom , which is true to some extents . Anyways my point is ...when teen boys or males are passionate towards/enjoys something , let's take sports for example , they are encouraged and supported . But when teen girls or women in general is passionate towards something , say music or here , kpop , it's always made fun of and they are teased for it ? Girls who like One Direction/BTS /Taylor Swift (etc) or Rom-coms and all , are looked down upon ? Just saying ... in general anything which seems to have a female based audience is not taken seriously ..and you can kinda see how it reflects in the kpop industry too. Or it can be just me reading too much into things lol . 😬😂

[@afiamahmood1313]

No, you are correct. Us girls have it hard have it hard with our hobbies.

[@i-spy9601]

i remember back in middle school we had this one guy who would come in decked out in merch of his favorite football team and constantly talked about it. we were like "okay damn he really likes them huh" but it didn’t change the way people perceived him. girls didn’t receive the same neutral treatment

[@ddjsoyenby]

yeah.

[@treepteepandey1571]

@@chuuchu6078 yeah :-\

[@bobatealily]

Yeah, people think that anything that's female-oriented or popular among girls must be bad because it's popular among girls and they only get praise if boys start liking them. Although about Twilight, it is actually very problematic and disgusting and this is my opinion. No, it's NOT because it's popular among teen girls. It's bad because it glorifies abusive relationships, romanticizes stalking, misrepresents depression, implies that you should commit suicide if you get dumped, has very bad love lessons such as if you get dumped, your ex will eventually come back, is racist towards Native Americans (The werewolves are all portrayed as savage Native Americans who barely wear clothes..), and the protagonist Bella is a very bad role model and not to mention she's actually internally misogynistic which is ironic because Stephenie Meyer claims to be a feminist... But girls who like it don't deserve to get shamed for liking it. Yes, I'm actually a girl myself, and ugh DO NOT get me started on Twilight. I don't care if people like Twilight as long as they're not being jerks about it or attack other people for not liking it. Most people who attack others for not liking Twilight are very misguided and don't understand abusive relationships (mostly likely because they never experienced it or learned about it so they assume just because they never experienced it, it probably never happened to someone else) I remember being shamed for liking certain stuff like BTS, female-oriented anime/manga, cute things, etc.

[@redroom7628]

whenever a female idol is in a "scandal", kpop fans bring up her age as if that matters

[@justasimplearmy3798]

I think when she was rly young when the scandal happened then it does matter. Like when someone sais some ignorant shit, but then it turns out she was 13 when she said it. Kids make mistakes, and its more excusable than when adults make them

[@i-spy9601]

"this hag" as if they won’t be in their late 20s/30s too some day...

[@thehappiestwomanamongallwo258]

And they are quick to call her misogynistic slurs as well.

[@professorhistoire5349]

it's okay you can say 'people saying irene is a 30 year old woman during her scandal'

[@bamboleo6348]

@@professorhistoire5349 It's not as simple as them saying that though. They literally made her seem like this old ass lady that had no reason being an idol, as if they weren't the same bitches hyping up her visuals and saying they're unmatched. They switch like ___

[@chelseah9543]

I totally agree with your point about girl crush concepts. A lot of people will say “I don’t like cute concepts because it’s weird that grown women are being forced to act like children” while completely ignoring that it’s just as easy for a company to force a girl crush concept onto a group. And besides, there’s nothing un-feminist about being cute or girly, so if the members don’t seem uncomfortable and have expressed that they enjoy acting cute, then I don’t really think there’s a problem.

[@Lana_ryu]

Agreed, I don't like cute concept, but if the idols themselves are happy with it, I'm happy. All I care about is idols having the choice to do what they want. If they wanna be cute, let them be cute; if they wanna be girl crush, let them be girl crush; if they wanna be sexy, let them be sexy.

[@quistwing]

yeah it's the way they immediately assume girlgroups are being forced to be cute, but hype girlgroups with sexy concepts for being "free" and "able to be themselves" even after it's revealed that the girls in the group actually hated the sexy concepts and didn't want to do it

[@lipsticklez9940]

But are quiet when bg do shool boy concepts or do aegyo even if it's just fan service......

[@katlyncoker8488]

Well, I think it depends on the framing. There's nothing wrong with being cute or girly. However, sometimes I feel the framing of it is sort of fanservicy. And I don't think its appropriate to fetishize that whole sweet innocent school girl concept. Admittedly, I don't follow girl groups typically. So I could be off base with this. But my impression of that concept is that is has alot of potential for fetishization and infantilization. And it doesn't help that kpop stars in general have to bend over backwards to keep their fans. Like how many kpop stars actually date someone without having to deal with backlash from "fans". So I can easily see some groups having to do the whole innocent school girl shtick just for fan service sake.

[@bitch8205]

@@katlyncoker8488 Yeah, I remember how a good portion of Girls' Generation's members hated a lot of their older songs because they trained for hip hop and more neutral music but once they debuted they got stuck with a lot of hyperfeminine and infantilizing music to the point that their leader got really frustrated during promotions and one of the other members almost left the group over it. Some female idols are fine with hyperfemininity but it's definitely forced on some others.

[@kawaiikoibito3268]

Kpop stans can be too gullible sometimes. Kpop industry is still ENTERTAINMENT and they'll definitely cater to certain things because it makes them More MONEY not because of some moral compass. They also can be hypocrites sometimes they'll only shout "internalized misogyny" when it's only a kpop idol they like

[@ddjsoyenby]

yup they also pretend to care about blm and cultural appropiation when it can make them look good.

[@harini6092]

*being a boy group stan doesn't make someone sexist, they just prefer boy groups* just let people like the music they like we can praise girl groups without dragging boy groups (and girl groups that do girl crush concepts, they also get a lot of hate) it's funny how these people say that we hate seeing other girls succeed but then drag girl crush concepts. lets just stop dragging people please and enjoy some music Yours sincerely, a multi who just wants everyone to get along

[@andrcgs]

period I've seen bunch of male girlgroup stans bashing female boygroup stans and giving them feminism lessons and stuff. Make it make sense. The misogyny...

[@ddjsoyenby]

agreed.

[@oddeye2412]

Im more of a gg stan (even tho i stan 10 bgs i stan 67 ggs) and honestly i dont even know why so many ppl criticize bgs so much? I actually think most gg stans are as toxic as bg stans, why so we throw shit at each other we are the same shit lol.

[@oddeye2412]

@@andrcgs why is it misogyny ghl, like i dont undeerstand im genuinely asking

[@spacecat942]

@Pinkii Lights Well I thought the same way but now I get it, it's about a sort of voice you prefer, vibes that generally the one type of groups have... And the most important thing is, its not a choice but rather a thing you naturally gravitate towards. Of course I like some boy groups but I just tend to prefer the girl groups :)

[@iiTrendyz]

the unnieologists always say "just say you hate women and go" whenever I constructively criticise their faves.

[@anonysilver525]

that or they tell you to criticize their company instead and still somehow come at you for calling out their faves when you do just that

[@haleisms]

@@anonysilver525 it's like a battle you can't win, it's exhausting

[@ma-yi]

UNNIEOLOGISTS

[@kybunnii]

@@ma-yi I cackled lol. Ah I learn new things everyday

[@avathoughtofthat6887]

@@anonysilver525 blackpink stans when i bring up the fact lisa wanted to apologise for the braids incident but jennie sided with yg and didnt think it was a big deal

[@steph0614]

I don't get the point of being a gg or a bg stan. Can't you just stan a group you like? I like Mamamoo and Twice. I also like BTS and TXT. I like Taemin, Chungha, and IU. I just like ppl that make good music. Please

[@i-spy9601]

some people act like it’s a personality trait lol

[@melancholist]

Right I didnt know that people took those titles seriously until recently, I just thought people meant that they mostly stan ggs or bgs.

[@laurennn316]

I would like to explain! I was a boy group stan for the first couple years as a Kpop fan, the reason being, I didn’t know of many girl groups that caught my attention, I also preferred the music that boy groups were making. My music taste has evolved since then and I find myself listening to a lot more girl groups now. But i do think there is a general difference in sound between boy groups and girl groups and most fans do tend to be girls (I’m just going to be heteronormative for a moment sorry). That said, yes I completely agree stan people that make good music.

[@esidore1474]

@P2K GURL hater 🤡🗑️

[@esidore1474]

@P2K GURL why are you talking to urself?? i pity you, go focus on your faves rather than spreading hate

[@natashanatasha7875]

I agree! I only stan 1 kpop group, which is gg, and even recently noticed a weird thing one of the group members of a group I stan had an interest in pole dancing for years. there were photos from her practice, videos of her doing that. half a year ago she expressed that the company didn't allow her to post too much about that (that's why older photos were posted on her instructors' Instagram and not her own). With the recent comeback, she expressed the will to do pole dancing for the MV and the photobook. the company finally allowed her to do it. And now the reaction. things like 'sl*t, str*pper' could be expected (and hopefully most ppl do realise that this is... bad). But the other kind of reaction is 'well she is now sexualized', 'forced to do it for men', etc! and the people who say this use exactly the same arguments: her clothes being too revealing, doing 'sexy moves', etc. so again people acting like women who actually do what they want are 'forced' to do it, should be 'saved', etc.

[@natashanatasha7875]

also I notice that people who put 'support all ggs!' in their bio use actual insults against ggs that they don't like A LOT.

[@i-spy9601]

gfriend? i think i saw something about people calling the one member names after her pole dancing scenes in margo...idiots

[@anonysilver525]

this also crosses into how kpop stans often victimize and infantalize the idols, they'll call out the company for "mistreating" the idols even if it involves speaking over the idols themselves and/or directly contradicting them and their wishes, all so they can further their own (often racist) savior complexes

[@Aditi-xl8gr]

I just want to say only one thing to these kind of people "GO GET ON A POLE YOURSELF FIRST!!" They are not gonna feel their core and arms for weeks. Pole dancing is a talent too I don't know when will the world get this in their heads. I'm pretty sure you're talking about Yuju. It's so sad some people are calling her names for that. I was personally very happy to see her do pole dancing.

[@noway3128]

I feel like I have seen a lot more hate towards GFriend in general ever since they signed with Big Hit. Obviously they got tons of hate in 2015/2016 but things had died down until this year. Like the whole fake Chanel mess with Jennie stans? MAGO was retro. That scene reminded me of Heathers, Clueless etc, which are 80s and 90s period pieces. They weren’t wearing fake Chanel for the sake of wearing Chanel like so many idols do, they were wearing 90s-influenced clothes to fit the MV theme.

[@iiTrendyz]

I've always thought that kpop gg stans think that they live vicariously through their faves and so that grants them permission to speak above everyone else at the expense of others. it's quite concerning the way they operate on twitter

[@i-spy9601]

tbh the whole self-insert thing can be just as toxic as being obsessed with an idol in a romantic way, and gg stans generally do the first one more

[@rubyjane9119]

Isn’t this exactly how army acts 💀 this behavior isn’t exclusive to gg stans honey the kpop industry thrives off stan culture and actually it’s more aggressive towards bg stans 🚶🏻‍♀️

[@ghosthuntinbun5947]

@@rubyjane9119 Yes, some armys brag over bts musical achievements, common on stan twt in general. But its not the same and not as crazy as gg stans believing they ARE the female idols (like bragging over brand deals?) There is a clear difference in the way gg stans talk and present themselves over bg stans. They often look down on and degrade bgs / bg stans. Female gg stans living vicariously thru the idol is something you'll see less often in bg stans since its more likely theyll want to KNOW the male idols and not BE them. And i wouldn't say this is a problem in kpop only. Western stans of female celebs like nicki and ariana, where fans talk/act like them, also are like this as well.

[@lvrslf]

When 'Kill This Love' came out i said that it's literally D4 2.0 and YG is becoming lazy and said some words about photocards (the ones with bruises) and i was immediatly told that i hate see blackpink succeed. The funniest thing, i was a blink back then. I guess i just hated my favorite group! Also i'm really tired of how men's opinion on kpop groups are always hyped and praised. They can say the bare minimun or give a group a backhanded compliment and immediatly get a ton of clout. I guess it's because we've been put down for so long for our interests, we consider any sort of men opinion as a chance to prove ourselves that what we like is good, because it was praised by men, whose interest is of course more mature. I hope one day we will just get rid of that and enjoy what we like shamessly. Great video as always!

[@ddjsoyenby]

so true.

[@dreamyanon5151]

That last part about "getting male approval" hit the nail on the head tbh.

[@loladoee]

seriously!!! as soon as something has a majority female fanbase its considered girly or immature

[@loladoee]

im not a blink (though I wholeheartedly support them) but one of the things I love so much about my ult group bts is they never make comments or jokes about how their fans are mostly female, they take us seriously. if all artists would be like that maybe those who think its ok to gatekeep would shut up too. it would be so incredible

[@carmenivy207]

Lol it’s funny how on one hand women are expected to mature faster ( from my personal experience in living at a third world country ) and on the other their interests are considered immature until a man likes it

[@Kaastengels]

sometimes when I pinpoint the lowkey "im not like other girl" message in lots of girlcrush kpop songs I got told that I have internalized misogyny..

[@toenailvolunteer3454]

" im not like other girls" is internalized misogyny

[@disaster4550]

same people who say stuff like "you're jealous cuz they are succesfull women" a lot of times would call idol girls ugly if they think she's problematic :\

[@miyeoncebiased1802]

Reminds me of white male orbits and blinks

[@foolishhuman5259]

Exactly, like as if appearance and actions are linked 🤦 People, please stop going offtopic on what someone did to use as an excuse for other hate.

[@strutonair6676]

its really appaling to me how many people will drop their feministic tendencies when they don’t like a certain woman, and continue to bash and hate on her, calling her derogatory names.

[@bananapuding866]

Literally the only kpop channel I still watch.

[@i-spy9601]

thank you

[@Andy-lr6cc]

Same

[@brimi6689]

Me too

[@tashiw2913]

male gg stan’s favourite clapbacks to criticisms and discussion are “just say you hate women” and “you’re just misogynistic” whilst shaming women who stan bgs. misogyny and feminism are some of gg stan’s fave buzz words

[@nicolehernandezmorales4006]

I never thought abt the "oppa" take as a mysoginistic stereotype abt fangirls, but it totally makes sense, male white cis gay men have the most to say abt women and how they act, simultaneously making them compete and seeing them fail, it's so weird, not only that but I HATE how feminism and empowerement it's portrayed, thinking cute or softer concepts are less than girl crush concept just proves that the empowerement they talk about it is superficial and it's based on looks and sound, and not content, and also, some ppl saying "they are a women group not a girl group" as if being girls and catering to girls were a bad thing or women couldn't enjoy and consume "young" music, all the points made by x group to empower women it's vanished on the note of their stans putting other women down

[@i-spy9601]

it’s so hypocritical to me how a lot of the drags used by these specific gg stans lowkey stereotype the crap out of girls

[@dreamyanon5151]

I gotta disagree on the women group thing.... honestly I think it's true! Although I LOVE cuter girl groups and I think they can be empowering too, I feel groups with mature concepts like mama moo celebrate being a women instead of youthfulness, and these things can coexist. We should celebrate both

[@awoeurhawlieuh4192]

@@dreamyanon5151 No no no... Please, from a fellow moomoo shut up. Mamamoo themselves have done cute concepts (Waggy, Sky Sky) and their song Yes I Am is 100% feminist and tells women and girls to be confident in whoever they want to be. The whole "Women Group" thing is degrading to other groups which is not what Mamamoo would want their fans to do.

[@dreamyanon5151]

@@awoeurhawlieuh4192 um excuse you? Telling me to shut up because you have a different opinion is beyond rude and a gross way to treat someone. My point was that cuter concepts *aren't* any less empowering but there SHOULD also be groups that solely celebrate women hood in a more mature way too. I know mama moo does cute concept too. We should have groups that cater to both young girls and older woman. Toxic people made "woman group" a bad word but imo it doesn't have to be.

[@dreamyanon5151]

@@awoeurhawlieuh4192 woman group doesn't mean better than cute or other concept imo,, it means a group that specifically celebrates maturity in women and the beauty of that.

[@haleisms]

At this point it's scary how you said what's in my mind for about two years. I've always said to my friend this certain type of kpop fans (or as I call them the fake woke feminists) have no idea what feminism is otherwise they wouldn't say, like I've seen several times with my own eyes, 'you just hate to see women succeed' when someone criticizes their favorite gg only to turn around and massively hate and bodyshame other women who are enjoying success or getting popular. And dear God don't get me started on the 'you are misogynistic' if you don't like their fave gg releases 💀 it's music, if I like it I do; if I don't I don't. Granted I won't be insulting the group but everyone has a right to dislike things, yes even if it's about my faves. (it's how they're verbalized and the mindset behind it that makes a difference). PS: I just find it kind of hilarious how they used bg stan as insult with me once when I literally only stan one bg and listen to ggs for the most part. A mess.

[@inikonnamewestan766]

I'm a male and bg stan and whenever i slighty criticized a gg there's always an edgy gg stan saying stuff like "just say you hate women and go" no Jessica just because i prefer bg and i'm male doesn't mean i'm a mysogynist or i hate to see women succeed

[@sollyrose]

As a girl, I feel better represented in bg songs than in gg songs... A lot of gg spread really toxic feminism in their songs and it is really annoying. 😑 And I understand you because even though I'm a girl, I receive a lot hate because I like bb groups more, so I'm not a strong woman or whatever. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@sollyrose]

@@Hola-vj5gl Well a lot of girl group songs are just about "I'm the best" "We don't need men in our lifes" "you are all jealous of me" "I'm prettier than you". You know, this kind of stuff that is becoming more and more toxic, and sometimes it's almost mysandry that is spread. (and that's actually not only in kpop) And you can actually this effect in the comments, just the way the first comment pointed it out. I also see regularly comments about how women do it better, etc... It's tiring. Women don't do it better. Neither do men. We just do it all our way. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind when women do talk about how strong women are. It is indeed important to let our voices be heard, as women, because yes, mysoginy is a disease to societies. But I just think there's a way to do it and a lot of time it comes out the wrong way (I'm really sorry, I'm not good at explaining how I feel about that kind of stuff 😅). Feminism is a good thing, but it mustn't reverse the roles. We need equality, not women's supremacy. Plus I often feel really awkward because a lot of gg that do this type of songs are actually very controlled behind the scene, and that's no secret. Like they can't say or do everything that they want, etc... So yeah, I really don't feel represented when a woman sings about how she is the best and she is strong, and in the end has no liberty because of her label. I feel more represented or inspired by women that maybe don't necessarily talk about how they are the best, but in the end have full control on their lifes and can say whatever they want to say. Again, I'm not making a generalization of girl groups. There's also girl groups that are perfectly fine. But in the end I just find, in general, boy groups' songs more meaningful, and that can be relatable for both men and women, and that don't always talk about "I'm the best and you're not". I just fine the themes of boy group' songs more diverse and more relatable. I just like songs that can talk about other stuff. I also want more girl groups talking about really meaningful subjects. That would actually make me more proud of being a woman! That's what I meant by toxic feminism. I don't know if you see what I meant? I'm sorry if it wasn't clear at all, my English is bad. Also, just to make it clear, my intention isn't to bash nor hate on these girl groups. I don't wish them anything bad. I actually don't even think they wrote their own lyrics, most of the time. Also I realized I've been saying "girl groups" but it's also things that can be found with solo female artists. I should have said "female artists in kpop" instead. One last thing, because I said I liked good songs about empowerment and by women. An example for me would be Lion by (G) I-DLE. They've been recently really improving their lyrics. I wasn't convinced by their earlier songs but their lyrics kept improving. And Lion is a well written song. I guess I'm just a sucker for good lyrics 😅

[@jikookmints]

Kpop male stans, especially cis gay white men, really think stanning ggs is enough to make you a Super Feminist even tho they still are very misogyny to other girls (kpop stans and idols) and speak over us. It's extremely annoying, I even got accused of being misogynist just for saying a lot of female idols can't rap. Saying i hate successful women for not liking a song or that i want BTS to fck me for defending them, etc. Honestly, the reason these "feminist" exists is bc if bp and the expansion of badass concept in ggs. They think those girls are So Feminist and stanning them makes them one too. Also i'm getting tired of gg stans saying "if a female idol did this..." when there's a scandal with make idols like shut the hell up

[@anonysilver525]

tbh i think it has a lot more to do with the influx of fans from western stan twitter into the kpop community, bc these type of fans basically make up 80% of western stan twitter (the other 20% being directioners and fans of smaller artists i think). this is ofc related to what you pointed out tho

[@jikookmints]

@@anonysilver525 yeah definitely thats why i mentioned bp. They attract a lot of male white gay stans that female soloists have (especially after collaborating with Dua and Gaga) and they kind of go to other ggs that make similar concepts

[@gahyeonlvr7501]

I agree. I’m a lesbian, and the amount of times cis white gays have been lesbophobic and misogynistic to me over kpop, it’s crazy.

[@spiralysts]

ig that “if a female idol did this..” talk is a bit annoying and doesnt help anything, any other form of calling out misogyny in kpop (just not that way) will be helpful to educate others more on the topic

[@jikookmints]

@@spiralysts yeah that definitely doesn't help bc there has been instances where male idols got more heat than female idols for doing the same (example: 97 liners situation).

[@kittykat3306]

Not sure if she bring up this point in the video, I just started watching, ever notice how ESPECIALLY on twitter GG stans are mainly males!? They have the most to say about how women should act? What they should/should not do? Basically mansplain! Oh and god forbid that you tell them off or say something negative about their faves, they’ll harass you to no end and say the MOST awful things about you and your fave(s).

[@i-spy9601]

"stay out of women’s business" said the male gg stan to the woman and everybody clapped

[@веснушки-в9л]

Also i noticed mostly it is gay men who are "feminist kpop stans" but i think they are just using that to gain clout and act superior

[@i-spy9601]

i sometimes wonder if certain people don’t realize gay men can be misogynists too because i‘ve got some news for them

[@lissywashere6040]

@@i-spy9601 it's kinda news to people that you can be a gay guy and still have misogynistic tendancies just like you can be female and still have misogynistic tendancies

[@anonysilver525]

@@lissywashere6040 i'd say it's different bc in the case of cis gay men they have male privilege so they are much less harmed by misogyny than women are i think a better analogy would be how some cishet women think shipping gay couples means they can't be homophobic

[@lys8779]

Your girl crush lyrics: bars 😩

[@i-spy9601]

someone hire me @kpopindustry

[@hellionshark3197]

"Not like other girls" isn't feminist. Is usually young women thinking they can get respect by distancing themselves from 'feminine" things. A feminist would at least try and appreciate that boy bands break toxic masculine stereotypes, even if they don't like their music. In fact there is something very antifeministic about hating someone's work over their gender. Also - all for women to have more creative control. Who cares what their lyrics and music are about if they are not writing it themselves.

[@user-ij8le8qc1t]

the idea that cute concepts are 'cringy' or 'not feminist' comes directly from the 'I'm not like other girls' mentality that puts down traditionally female traits. cute concepts are fun, like free serotonin, and its sad that cute concepts are so heavily hated

[@sendhelp1506]

A phrase i see way too often on kpop twt is "all this over some korean men?" which is really weird mean i make jokes about hating men too but if you consider yourself a kpop fan and then proceed to single out the fact that these people are korean when you try to drag them??? And i've never seen something like that being said about female idols

[@i-spy9601]

i feel like the people who say that are the same ones who would've said "why do they look like girls" a couple years ago

[@melodycao5376]

this is such a refreshing take, i feel like people really do see bg stans as lower than gg stans and you're more woke for liking gg...that's also why I'm always hesitant about telling people I like kpop because I know all the assumptions that will instantly be made about me

[@gracienoble2880]

In another take on that, my sister is a bg stan and HATES that I'm getting into ggs, too. She won't say it out loud, but I know it's because she's worried I'll become one of those toxic gg stans and start hating on her for really only enjoying bg music. I'm a bg and a gg lover, so it's not something to worry about with me, but seeing this kind of treatment makes me understand where she's coming from.

[@bkzl]

I have a hard time respecting people who only support women being "badass" or girl crush and somehow overlook the talent of others for being "cute"

[@aprils1888]

Undercover boy group stan, I"M CRYINGHSDSDGHS 💀💀

[@i-spy9601]

had me randomly wheezing throughout the day absolutely iconic

[@brimi6689]

💀

[@idontknowanymore9966]

“yes boss, I’m in, the girl group stans don’t suspect a thing! Soon, we’ll discover why they’re so annoying! Undercover boy group stan OUT.”

[@i-spy9601]

for years i‘ve been honing my skills. i studied not only the art of the blade but also the art of deception. i‘ve aquired the ultimate girl group stan knowledge. now, finally, all of my blood sweat and tears, the years of hard work, the endless sleepless nights i spent in the training dungeon, it’s all paying off. i‘ve managed to successfully infiltrate them and now destruction shall occure!

[@Andy-lr6cc]

23:58 the way you actually nailed the song lyrics of some groups, omg

[@i-spy9601]

pls tag entertainment companies so they can hire me

[@Andy-lr6cc]

@@i-spy9601 @ygentertainment 💀

[@Andy-lr6cc]

SRRY JSKAJDKASDJ

[@i-spy9601]

let me private my videos where i bash them real quick...

[@Zonnyzone96]

@@i-spy9601 yeah do that. But I don't think they would hire a female for that

[@celiagarcia-araus7841]

16:47 “for example the fact that women are the backbone of the western kpop community and yet male voices are still held at higher value” GO OFF QUEEN I LOVE TO HEAR ITTT 👏👏👏💕

[@lindseysg]

ur brain is so smart u always put how i feel into words

[@i-spy9601]

🥺🥺

[@lindseysg]

@@i-spy9601

[@sashab9611]

Nothing makes me 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ more than someone “claiming” that a person hates women for not supporting a specific gg

[@defiantaichi]

Lol, the board meeting part cracked me up. I wonder if that’s how they came up for the lyrics of helicopter....

[@thati-spice4603]

Yo, complete the Twitter mutual. But I never realised that we were slowly demonizing the word "oppa". That's legitimately awful. We, as non koreans, shouldn't contribute to mocking Korean culture. Especially since koreaboos (and weaboos etc) are slowly disappearing. Furthermore, these avengers don't really defend their fave. Hwasa is one of the most hated idols I've seen to date. The only person close is Jesse. They get mocked the most for their mistakes but boys get a slap on the wrist and go. Where are these avenger there?? And it's very annoying for a man to speak over a women when it comes to women issues. I'm not saying that sometimes, it's needed, but all the time?? Madness. And these men are most often mlm and I think this causes them to think that they aren't mysogonistic due to their proximity to femininity. Yea.... There's a lot to unpack in the avenger community

[@babymilksnatcher]

Hwasa and Jessi have a very americanized image. I feel like the reason they're getting this much hate is because they aren't "exotic" enough to the eyes of the western fans, which is a codeword for fetishism. of course, this is not to diminish their past cultural appropriation.

[@hanji5402]

Honestly I don’t think boys just get forgiven this quickly. The amount of hate toward NCT Taeyong and especially Skz Bang Chan is horrible, they apologized 100 times but Twitter just won’t stop grabbing their jacket for nothing

[@brennathecatlover4360]

Well it depends on the idol. Cuz suju despite apologizing for at least the stuff people know about and not repeating what they’ve done that I’m aware of get bashed on the daily. Yet bp besides Lisa for the braids in her promotion hasn’t apologized for anything and people still don’t seem to care. And skz still gets bashed even tho I think they’ve apologized for most of all for the things they’ve done. Twice has done stuff too like momo saying the n word in a song yet people either don’t know about it or don’t care yet will bash another group for saying the n word like Bts or Big Bang,

[@brennathecatlover4360]

@@hanji5402 i think it depends on the idol cuz skz and suju has apologized for at least the main scandals that people know about and haven’t repeated them that I’m aware of yet stan groups like bp or twice that have done stuff and no one really cares or at least doesn’t publicly care

[@aasha8759]

This **really** bugged me about CLC's "no" where they LITERALLY have LYRICS saying "red lip no" "high heel no" "make up no" but were still conforming to mainstream beauty and fashion standards!!! I always wondered why they couldn't display alternative fashions or something, because it seemed so redundant and pointless!!!

[@bkzl]

They talked about this. They said it was about saying no to people wanting them to do it and when. It didn't mean they won't do it, just not according to when people would want it. Also them wearing alt outfits (assuming) if they aren't alt isn't really the right way if it isn't smth they aren't interested in

[@aasha8759]

@@bkzl thats fair but even then, they didnt choose costuming of concepts for it and were being told what to wear by the company, directors and managers. does that then not defeat the message of do it for yourself?

[@bkzl]

@@aasha8759 true true. I guess I looked at it as in the fans and the community outside rather than the company + also a couple of instances of the members expressing their opinions about their preferences and understood it from that.

[@aasha8759]

@@bkzl yeah yeah i get what you mean, and you have a point about what I said about showcasing more alt styles. Although from my understanding, alt is generally just any kind of niche genre that doesn't fit the current 'norm' or mainstream fashion, including grunge, goth, lolita, Harajuku and all the "soft" variants and yeah.

[@raynatumbeva780]

@@aasha8759 technically, the message of the song is "I do it because I want to, not because someone told me". Which is honestly a lot more empowering than being r/notlikeothergirls.

[@anon3868]

man she really doesnt get enough credit for her very well thought out video essays on kpop...

[@brimi6689]

YES

[@killuazoldyck6166]

One of the reasons why I think that I could never be a fan of blackpink is the huge disconnect between how their fans try to market them "badass, empowering women" and their lyrics and the excuses their fans bring up. Most of blackpink songs are centered around men, whether they are breakup songs or love songs, it just seems like their discography is defined mostly by romantic relationships, and does not actually go in depth about the many other experiences that women have. Of course, it also bothers me that there are men writing these lyrics like "I don't know what to do with out you" painting them as helpless women or their bragging lyrics that tend to be cliche and focus on their money and looks. If they wrote their own lyrics, that'd be one thing, but like you said it's just men writing these empty, superficial lyrics for them to preform. In general, kpop fans try to excuse everything their idols do by saying that they are ignorant and blame the company, but I feel like I see blackpink fans take that kind of thing to the next level. For example, they say that rose is being forced to sing and speak in a certain way by the company and they have no control over any of the creative processes. How am I supposed to feel empowered by women who's success they claim is entirely orchestrated by men? Who are so controlled by their company that they aren't even allowed to speak in their normal voices? I have nothing against kpop girl groups being successful because they are women, I would love to see a popular girl group that takes on negative stereotypes and is empowering to women. Nor do i feel like ever girl group has to be empowering to women, there is absolutely a place for other kinds of messages. I have a problem with it with blackpink, because people paint them as being "badass, empowering women". blackpink might be that for some people, and that's totally okay, but I also feel like there are a lot of men throwing around those terms as a means of hyping them up. I just can't feel empowered by idols who spend more of the year modeling than they do actually making and preforming music, whose songs and choreographs feel half-assed and outdated, and whose lyrics are cringy cliches representing some of the stereotypes about woman I hate the most. (As a side note, my feelings about this somewhat tie in with the nurse outfit thing, and people speaking over Korean nurses to say that Jennie should be able to wear what she wants, but since I am not a Korean nurse, I don't really feel like I should talk much about it)

[@babisr2921]

1. blackpink can actually write and did write some of their songs, u need an update, it aint 2017 anymore. also, they have 20+ songs only, small steps, allow them to grow, yall kno it aint that easy in that industry, especially in yge. 2. jennie's nurse wasnt sexual in any way and it was rlly shitty for those women to tell jennie that she was sexualising the profession when she wasnt doin anythin remotely sexual and actually wore a longer skirt then the usual nurse outfit (she was also rappin about bein lovesick, thats why that scene existed) It was also depicted that the nurse that "called out" jennie was just trying to hide a controversy about sexual harrassement made by her former superior (she basically paid respects and cried over her dead boss who harrassed a fellow nurse, maybe even more) 3. just bc bp's songs are written by teddy and co doesnt mean u cant feel empowered. majority of ggs and bgs songs r written by men. i dont see why u dont hav a problem w men singin "women should dress w skin tight clothes, u have a sexy body show more skin we like it that way" but u have a problem w a woman saying "idk what to do without u", its not that deep, and women can sing about being vulnerable if they want to. 4. u still can be empowered by women who r under a bad company that restricts them. boycottin dem wouldnt solve anythin, instead, let them grow and who knows maybe theyll surprise u one day. right now, bp r the money makers of the company and slowly theyre gettin somewhat a "better" treatment (its still the bare minimum but who knows) 5. the thing w "bp act fake, rosé fakes her voice" wasnt invented by blinks but by other stans that didnt like bp. its funny how ppl r always makin these conspiracy theories about bp being controlled to the core and then blame it on blinks when, originally, blinks were only talkin about the musical aspect, not the personnalities. we never said rosé's voice is fake bc yg wants her to act cute, we never said yg wants jennie to be blair waldorf, its other stans that project these characters on them.

[@Flora-ix3os]

@@babisr2921 no offence but you shouldn’t blame all of the in controversies of a fandom on “antis” there are definitely blinks who thought Rose was using a fake voice - the blink fandom is so huge with Blackpink being the most popular gg that of course people within the fandom will have differing opinions

[@lvrslf]

@@babisr2921 no offence but have you seen how many there are videos like "bp are suffering" "proof that bp are being controlled" and how popular they are? whenever someone criticize bp's lyrics or music or lack of comeback blinks always blame it on the company, so what are you expecting from a non blink perspective?

[@babisr2921]

@@Flora-ix3os im not saying there wasnt blinks, im sayin it was mostly other fandoms' that were rlly perpetuatin and pushin these "stereotypes" on them and videos like ispy's werent of help at all, the opposite actually, they were told in such a way as ppl started to actually believe it which is weird bc these r human beings that r treated like dolls by an audience that is always complainin about "idols being manufactured" (btw im talkin about the video where she said rosé has blonde hair and plays guitar and speaks in a soft and cute voice to seem like a stereotyped Australian indie girl when...that is maybe a part of rosé's real personnality? she likes being blonde and playin guitar, and we shouldnt make her whole personnality as a marketin technique to appeal to a certain audience...?)

[@killuazoldyck6166]

@@babisr2921 1. I never said that they didn't. They don't, however, write a majority of them and are not the main writers on the songs that they are credited. That doesn't mean that they can't write, however it does mean that very little of their songs are written by them. If they change drastically, I might change my mind, as things are, this is how I feel right now. It's fine if you disagree, different people will have different standards and things that they want from idols. it is incredibly hard to be an idol, I know that I could never do that, and for all that I find blackpink lacking compared to other groups, they still have had to work incredibly hard to debut and live with that much attention. I don't think that anything I said was attacking the actual members of blackpink or meant as hate for them, I am talking about the group and the brand itself which is where I have problems. They could be the most wonderful, kind, smart people in the world and still preform songs that I don't like because that's what the company wants them to preform or because that's their personal style. 2. I never said that it was sexual. Again, I don't want to get into it because I am not a Korean nurse. It is my understanding that the problem was because she was not wearing the usual nurse outfit (scrubs) but an outdated one. It was my impression that it was a union of nurses, not just one nurse, but I am aware that I could be wrong. 3. Of course it doesn't mean that I can't feel empowered. it's the lyrics themselves + the knowledge that they were written by men. I absolutely do have a problem with men singing things like that, but why would I talk about it here, when that's not the point of the video? I could easily find plenty of horrible sexist, misogynistic lyrics, and I do not think any of blackpink's lyrics are. Given the context, they rub me the wrong way, but my no means are they the worst thing out there. To me, it comes off as less about being vulnerable, and more about needing a man to function, but different people have different perspectives, and if you interpret it differently, that's fine. 4. I am under no obligation to like anything. I don't have to force myself to like something that i don't because one day it might be different. I am open to the possibility that things could be different in the future, and if that ever happens, I might change my mind, but as it is, I'm not going to sit around waiting for them to possibly change, especially if they aren't even interested in changing the way I would like (as far as I know, they haven't said anything about changing the meaning of their songs). I imagine that there are some groups that I could find empowering despite the company, but blackpink is not one of them. Again, that doesn't mean that they aren't empowering to anyone, that means that they aren't empowering to ME. Even if I was a fan, i'm not sure that I would feel comfortable giving money to yg, especially since blackpink is not a small group that would need that money to survive. 5. I would guess that there are plenty of blinks that believe and spread those conspiracies given the size of the fandom. However, i am not a part of it, so if you are saying that that is a vocal minority, then i will believe you. I think that every idol relies on a persona, it's just a question of how much of that persona is fake (which honestly doesn't matter unless they really are a terrible person) I don't know any idols, so I can't tell you if their personalities are fake or not, nor would I use that as a reason to dislike a group. Personally, I find rose and lisa's voice's to come off as really grating and fake, but that doesn't mean that they are fake, and I have found other real people's voices to be annoying. It is my personal preference, and I am well aware that my opinion does not matter. You seem like you really like blackpink, and I'm glad that you've found happiness in them. They are not for me, and you will likely be unable to change my mind. The more that i have learned about blackpink the less that I have liked them, but I accept that there are people who do not feel the same way. Everyone has different opinions, and given the type of music that I like, unless blackpink becomes a completely differentgroup, the most i will ever be is a casual listener

[@catyroyalty]

Exactly! You articulate my thoughts in a way i could never 😭 you are absolutely right and its so fckng tiring and sad how people use actual important topics and make them a joke and a banality. I too always assume those people are 12yo girls or just grown unwashed men so i try not to take them seriously but they really be getting on my nerves.

[@brimi6689]

Some people in this comments feel called out 👀

[@chulol7935]

i can’t believe you popped off once again performative feminism is present in almost every fandom and it’s so fucking annoying every time a cishet man has an opinion about something everyone gasses him because they’ve never had their feelings “validated” in such a way. then that lights a fire under his ass and he feels like he’s done something for someone when he hasn’t. i hate that basic decency from cishet men is so worshipped. the way stans will go on and on about feminism and toxicity when it serves their purpose but will drop it and ignore blatant toxicity the moment it goes against what they need is so pathetic to me. if you’re gonna be a piece of shit at least own up to it, yknow? anyways love this as always

[@i-spy9601]

it’s just so gross to me how they disguise their misogyny and superior complex as being a knight in shining armor

[@yanathepotato5705]

I feel like in general, it's really hard to truly talk about important issues in kpop in general, bc it gets weaponized by stans for dubious or bad faith purposes. I guess, that's because that's also how the nature of kpop is. kpop (or any idol industry, such as jpop- johnny's male idols and the 48 girl franchise) is all about getting people to develop so much of an emotional connection towards other individuals, that these turbulent emotions translate to currency that will flow back to the company's pockets. so when this happens, it becomes a case of me & my idol faves vs. the world. but yeah, as I said, this becomes problematic, bc when important things or issues that DO need to be discussed get brought up, any nuance that exists (bc not everything is black and white. nuance exists in almost everything) gets thrown out the window. everything and everyone is either working for or against your idol. and this is also why, as much as we want kpop to become more global and inclusive, it's hard for us to truly talk about cultural appropriation, sexism, ableism, etc. because stans will always take it as an attack, rather than an actual critique for their faves and their companies too. and at some point, I don't blame them too, bc there are indeed people who make bad faith criticism, under the name of a greater good, like in this video, feminism, or racial/cultural sensitivity. and it's frustrating bc most of the people who insert themselves in this narrative aren't even part of the demographic involved (e.g. blackfishing among kpop stans; especially that one edgy orbit who was the absolute worst towards yoongi and armys during the jim jones sample incident, ended up being a southeast asian man instead of a black girl like they claimed they were. cis male gg stans who were being absolutely hateful towards bts unprovoked). and like you, the fake "feminism" among girl group stans also bothers me a lot. it's only recently when I started gravitating towards girl groups (I don't call myself a bts + gg stan, bc I casually like around 6 bgs, including bts, which is a lot, even though the only bg I actually stan is bts). and the whole reason why I've been iffy getting into girl groups in the past is bc of the male fans. I don't watch a lot of gg fancams or stages, bc the male fan chants make me kinda uncomfortable. and this isn't an "all men are pigs" kind of thing. I used to be part of male-dominated anime/manga fandoms, and I've been made to feel horrible, unsafe and uncomfortable as a cis female fan in those spaces in the past, bc of the casual and shady sexism/misogyny male fans had for female fans/creators and the female characters in the series. so many times. so it's something I have been trying to shake. and knowing that most of these vile gg stans identify as cis men, just makes me sick in my stomach bc it basically confirms any worries I have with mostly male-dominated spaces. they just cross so many boundaries they shouldn't cross, including making their twitter handles have words, like "pussy", "cunt", "placenta" or even "abortion" (I swear, every time I see someone with that handle, it's a red flag that it's an edgy male gg stan, which is usually correct). also while, there's something that doesn't sit right with me when people hate ggs for being "cute", I don't think girls deserve to be bashed for not liking cute ggs or ggs at all. there are feminists who are bg stans, as well as sapphics who are bg stans and they are just as valid. I know this is another whole can of worms, but if we're talking about performative kpop stans, then I am gonna bring it up too. other than "feminism" and sexism, I also feel the same way with kpop "economics". lately, there has been a rise in communist kpop stans, and to those who are chill and know where to put their energy to, more power to you guys. however, there's a lot of performative actions within these communities too. I feel like a lot of these people just take "eat the rich" aesthetics and apply it not towards making good change (like holding big 3 companies responsible for their exploitative practices), but targeting people they don't want. a lot of them keep going for bts, just bc they are rich men (bc "eat the rich" am I right?). and they bring down armys who crowdfund albums for less privileged armys , bc they "should donate to charities and poor people instead of filling the pockets of a greedy company". and I am kind of pissed. as an economics major, and as someone with progressive left-leaning political beliefs (not a communist, but I sympathize with socialists and their cause to an extent. I won't elaborate but yeah.). I struggled so long to reconcile my political beliefs with my college major (and studying neoclassical economics only made me more critical of capitalism as I already am), only for these "commies uwu" to bastardize these legitimate beliefs and turn them into stan twt fan war material. they don't treat big 3 companies and their groups, or any other company + their groups at all, the same way they do towards bts and bighit (and to be clear, I agree that bh is worth criticizing; however, a lot of the "critiques" I've been seeing are so disingenuous and devoid of nuance or critical thought. so I am tired, manager antis please go to bed I am begging you), and I am honestly tired. left-leaning economic thought is already criticized far enough, and what they are doing is just giving socialists/communists a bad name and entertaining people's confirmation bias. as leftists, they should be fighting against income inequality, exploitative corporate practices and extractive institutions; not make people feel bad on how they are spending their money on, or hating on the top boy group, only bc they are earning money for their own art, and is more successful than their own faves. it's a big ugly slap towards actual activists who got punished by governments for their progressive beliefs (like these people should read up on "mccarthyism". also, my country's government is red-tagging and arresting people with progressive beliefs so this is a big deal for me. these people are so lucky they can scream "eat the rich" and display the hammer-and-sickle sign proudly in their profiles), and I am tired.

[@anonysilver525]

every word you said here is hard truth, just today those "kpop communists" actually attacked one in an army (army's biggest charity fanbase) and made them go private for saying they can't boost an account asking for go fundme donations because they can't vet them (and wouldn't you know, that account turned out to be fishy!). i am so tireeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

[@anonysilver525]

also, i have noticed that despite being so loud about communism and eat the rich and attacking big hit for innocious stuff like bad merch drops they somehow tend to support groups from some of the worst companies out there? like loona's parent company is literally an arms dealer chaebol, for gods sake!

[@adriennpasku2602]

all of this!! it really is so hard to talk about the actual issues, not only bc they are weaponized but also bc they get lost in the petty bs. when every other day an idol is in a "scandal", calling them out just doesnt hold the same weight. for example, suga having a maid was blown up to be a problem, and that type of meaningless, frankly stupid outrage overshadows the real issues.

[@angelic_mp4]

TW// mentions of gore, blood, abuse, self-harm, and pornographic material Holy crud! You literally took as many thoughts from my mind and spoke the hard truth about the community! *(nah, no pun intended, but still, WORD!!)* Exactly though, you're actually dead-set right. There are so many edgy girl group stans (and k-pop stans in general) of all walks of life that it is not even funny to think about, or to try to get out of the mind. There was always users throwing out and reducing topics such as politics, capitalism and the subject regarding "eat the rich," women's rights, and other topics into _"uwu cutesy wootsy awesthetics for stans to uwse for fwan-wars!!!1!"_ and that, by itself, is EXTREMELY insensitive and reckless, especially when it comes to people putting in emphasis for their evaluations and strong-willed opinions on these subjects. Nevertheless, like in one of i-spy's most recent videos regarding Stan Twitter, there are also users who harass other people, influencers, and K-pop idols on the daily, with some of the worst, most horrific and disgusting jokes, filled with racism, sexism, ableism, misogyny and misogynoir towards people and women of color, and with angry mobs of the recent awakening of cancel culture, especially towards idols such as Amber Liu, Soyeon, Hwasa, etc. Heck, we even had gore-and-porn cults disgusing illegal snuff material, such as extreme gore, pornographic films, and videos of abuse or self-harm, onto K-pop fancams and posting it publicly, either for clout, "funny/edgy points" or to scar and traumatize younger fans over the last few months for God's sake! Man, I had to let it all out, hasn't I?

[@Ain41N]

There are some stuff you said that I didn't understand, but I agree with you

[@lipsticklez9940]

I had a love hate thing with twice when i got into kpop but I have to say I love twice cute concepts I fell in love with bts mostly for their dancing but since we often often see masculine dance moves as "more powerful " good dancing" there is this belief that gg just don't dance as well as bg and thats what i thought for a while but learning the choreography helped me become ok with doing feminine dance moves and watching twice and seeing women acting cute helped me realize that the reason they made me so uncomfortable was because of my own internalized misogyny.

[@i-spy9601]

it’s great that you realized that about yourself tho! i went though something relatively similar

[@valeriads5]

another argument that i have been seeing a lot lately is the “ they are a WOMEN group not a girl group” while talking about gg's that don’t do cute concepts, coming from people who preach that gg's should be able to do whatever concept they like without being diminished

[@miyeoncebiased1802]

men who stan ggs and feel like they're spreading feminism... let me tell them that they're literally do the bare minimum and let's not forget the hypocrisy they display while comparing their ults with other girl groups their feminism disappears... btw nice sims 4 build 😍

[@il.u.vgojosatoru6516]

I'm a fan of Gfriend and I remember reading a comment saying that Gfriend's only song with an empowering message was Labyrinth because it was a girlcrush concept and apparently that person only bothered to read the translation of that song, and I just thought that it was so funny, literally in their debut song one of the lines says "I may seem like a glass bead but I won't break that easily" and it was a super cute and innocent concept, this really shows that gg stans will only think that an empowering group should have girl crush concept and I find that so ridiculous. Gfriend's last comeback is far from being girl crush and the whole album talks about female empowerment, friendship between women and their own struggles.

[@mackynzi2049]

What's the name of the album? I want to listen to it.

[@il.u.vgojosatoru6516]

@@mackynzi2049 the album is called walpurgis night, it's such a good album i really recommend it.

[@mackynzi2049]

@@il.u.vgojosatoru6516 Okay, Thank you! I will definitely do that!

[@Ali-gv2nx]

i don't understand how irene stans go around saying that irene was the victim of her own scandal just because she's pretty and famous, when the stylist is actually sent death threats and has a permanent scar from what irene has caused. how is a bad day equivalent to 20 mins of someone shouting at you? like, even if i were so annoyed with my co-worker, i would make amends peacefully rather than scarring someone for 20 mins...i always thought we reveluvs are pretty peaceful, but i can't with the victim-blaming going on.

[@suhaliverma2960]

I'm not really in the loop about this nor do follow much on red velvet , but honestly the stylist knew what she was getting into, and it would have been a double edged sword either way.

[@Ali-gv2nx]

@@suhaliverma2960 how??? stylists don't have a say on who they're gonna work with. she exposed irene because girlie has also been harrassing other korean staff just like what bella shao said lmao. funny how no one who's been documenting secrets in the industry have ever said that irene is nice, they defended seulgi from the first rumors and none for irene. not to mention that only sm staff have defended irene so far...

[@suhaliverma2960]

@@Ali-gv2nx as I mentioned it would have been a double edged sword either, she would know that, considering she was part of the industry. Sometimes shit works like that.

[@Ali-gv2nx]

@@suhaliverma2960 still not an excuse though for treating staff like shit though. it's just like working in retail, and i'm despising irene because i've been in the same situation of karens making us feel like crap for their own power-trip.

[@suhaliverma2960]

@@Ali-gv2nx you might be looking at this from that angle, but it just doesn't work like that in any major entertainment industry, perhaps Hollywood might be a better comparison. Anyway, this was not the point. Conflicts like these in that kind of field are undertaken by due process in a completely different manner. When people do resort to social media it's mostly for clout or doing a dramatic expose.

[@fara2999]

Wish i could go back in time and prevent kpop stans from discovering woke signal words they don't understand

[@lissa6938]

I'm a gg stan (I think I just connect more with other women, since I also only stan women in western pop) but I can't go on the gg stan side of twitter because it's just so toxic, and what's worse it's toxicity disguised as feminism... literally Twice is my ult group and the things I've heard just because they did cute concept is just... ugh. These people need to understand that girl crush does not mean girl power, actually if you pay attention to some of the girl crush llyrics, they're just like "I'm beautiful and successful and no other "plain jane" will be able to be like me" or "you broke up with me and now you dating that other girl who isn't even as pretty as me" (and a lot of the lyrics aren't even written by the members but some man from their company). While some groups with cute concepts have actually some good lyrics that are often ignored by gg stans, exemple: up no more by twice, a song written by Jihyo that talks about her insomnia and how she doesn't want to feel that way anymore.

[@professorhistoire5349]

right? i'm a gg stan and i can see the good in all concepts

[@sollyrose]

Yes, so true. A lot of gg with a girl crush concept spread lot of toxic feminism. It makes me so mad. And next to that gg critized for cute concepts, like Gfriend or Twice, have actually meaningful lyrics.

[@gracienoble2880]

What's with the hate on girly/cutesy girl groups? Low-key the most feminist female idols I've seen came from these sorts of groups. Warning: pretty long rant. For example, TWICE's Momo. She's such an adorable person and fits the cute theme very well, but she loves to promote working out and muscle gain (I don't remember where I saw this, but she was looking at female body builders and gushing over their muscles), eating healthy/whatever you want lol, and self-love. She'll be the first to talk shit about an unhealthy diet she was forced to undergo and she always seems to be the most confident when she's at her "heaviest" (when she's allowed to eat what she wants and winds up putting on a lot of muscle from working out). Also, her relationship with Heechul really promotes love and respect. They haven't (from what I've seen) had a ton of content together since they announced their relationship (for pretty obvious reasons), but they were friends before they got together and their interactions were always so cute and playful while remaining respectful. The "girl crush" concept usually seems very forced and it drives me insane that people can look at that and see empowerment. Like, usually those groups don't write their own songs, don't decide what to wear, and in some cases (like with BLACKPINK) are told how to act on camera and off camera in order to keep up the girlcrush persona. With the cutesy girl groups I see (at least with the groups I follow) them having fun with the concept. Aegyo is a strongly desired trait in Korean media (hence why a lot of idols have aegyo show-downs on variety shows) and usually the cute girl groups have the freedom to go as far or stay as moderate as they want with the theme outside of performing. Feel free to correct me on any of this, because I'm always more than willing to learn more information, this is just what I've noticed with the girl groups I follow.

[@bamboleo6348]

Honestly, Kpop has shown me that stans only use racism and sexism as a tool to weaponize against idols and fans. The Irene situation just made me see how little they view idols as humans and they should ALWAYS perfect. Everyone is a feminist until it comes to someone they don't like. Red Velvet, for the most part, is unproblematic. They make music, release and don't trouble nobody

[@haneul4164]

23:57 I'm having flashbacks of Blackpink's Pretty Savage lyrics 😂

[@quistwing]

loved every single point you made in this video. also, i hate when when people use the "omg your oppars wont fuck you" thing as an insult, especially if they are not korean bc....theyre making fun of korean. thats what theyre doing. it's like when people add the -eu at the end of english words. it's making fun of koreans.

[@i-spy9601]

it’s so degrading

[@thisuserisfoxxy]

Trigger warning: Mentions of rape Not sure if anyone is gonna see this but basically we all know that Soyeon messed up, I’m a nevie and I’m not trying to like excuse what she did, nevies hold the girls accountable for what they did. But the hate she gets has to stop, I’ve seen Soyeon get rape threats on twitter and it makes me want to cry, I understand that what she did was wrong but please stop this, and yes it was from gg stans

[@i-spy9601]

lmao i‘ve also received rape threats from some these specific fans, they truly do not care

[@user-hc1xr4wl2f]

May I add that whenever there's a new "dating scandal" why do they always go for the girl? Like doi what? And let's not forget the water bottle incident.

[@ctrl.f]

I clicked this video not really knowing what to expect and I agreed with everything you said, it honestly makes me really sad to see how some gg stans sometimes end up being super fake woke trying to defend the groups they like when they could really use some of those instances to actually talk about feminism and the problems that girl idols have to go through in a sexist industry. About the whole Soyeon situation it kinda makes me laugh how ironic some of the stans sound when they criticize her for having more lines, when the same thing happens with bgroups as u mentioned, and completely dismiss how great it is to have a woman writing and composing pretty good tracks considering the lack of female representation in the creative side of the industry. It really pisses me off how some people will use feminism only when it's convenient to them and as an excuse, when it's such an important topic that really needs more visibility in the entertainment industry and in the world in general. I hope this video reaches more people cause some of y'all really need to hear this

[@dearlily325]

Your point about the top kpop voices being men kinda reminded me of the kfanman situation last year. I started watching him at first cause I think I felt validated by a guy liking kpop who originally didnt like kpop bc he thought it was weird but than made casual videos about it like a lot of other female kpop youtubers I watch. But then controversy about his video with twice and eventually blackpink happened..

[@miyra28]

Another great video. I’m a pretty casual fan, I listen to a lot of music and watch videos but I avoid Twitter like the plague and barely engage in KZbin comments. Even to me the double standard is visible from far away. The amount of criticism that girl groups get vs boys groups is difficult not to notice. I didn’t know a lot about the feminist avengers so I’m grateful to have learned new something today. It’s unsurprising and also gross. One thing that does surprise me about kpop female stans of boy groups is the intense fawning. Sometimes I do see comments on Instagram and it’s 😬. It’s sad that female stans are absolutely integral and also mocked at but like with any obsession.. they also sometimes cross a line. Like it’s not saseng but it’s A LOT. Anyways sorry for the paragraphs... but I am so grateful your channel exists

[@GotInterest]

I've noticed the same with female gg fans as well... I think that- rather than this being a female bg stans vs female gg stan situation- there is an issue with female fans feeling like they are allowed to make really gross and creepy comments about and to their idols (male AND female alike) that would get completely shut down if it was a male fan making those statements towards/ about a female idol. And I don't mean this in a "see women are bad too!" MRA type way. Traditional perceptions of gender position women as being less threatening, less capable of harming anyone, that their words and actions shouldn't be taken seriously. And, in modern contexts, that means that while we are starting to reckon with sexual harassment from men as part of the current anti-sexism movement... sexual harassment by women still isn't being addressed. The only places I really see this discussed at large is within the LGBT circles and it's mostly in the context of straight women fetishizing gay men. But a REALLY weird phenomenon I've seen within gg fandom circles is the fetishization and sexualization of female idols by straight female fans. Take Seulgi and Irene's Monster MV, for example. A large portion of the grosses, most uncomfortable comments on that video were made straight female fans. A large portion of the fans who ship gg members together... are straight female fans. I think it's this weird association of lesbianism with girl power and feminism that dates back to the 70's and hasn't really left the public consciousness (at least for Western fans, I don't know what the dynamic is like in Korea). And as you said with boy groups... a lot of female fans feel really comfortable saying deeply inappropriate and creepy things about and to male idols on social media. I think we are starting to see female fans get called out for that behavior, but who knows if that will lead to people also acknowledging that behavior as inappropriate towards even female idols.

[@radiocrickets]

knocked it out of the park as you always do, my dude. i especially appreciate your take of soyeon and idle.

[@i-spy9601]

[@yasameenal-khalaf4463]

Lmao 🤣 I love the way you ended the video, but overall you really made me think about the whole kpop community and these types of "feminist".

[@julia-kf9bc]

I seriously hate this stereotype some kpop stans gave to cute gg. as if they were immature, dumb, submissive to the company, like they don't express themselves through music. my best girls twice do cute/girly concept, and they help to write and produce their own songs, but because they aren't feeding the kpop pseudo-badass-feminism they're seen as immature and dumb

[@MiLe-ql9ol]

They have some really inspiring lyrics even, and their concept kept growing alongside them, they inspired me a lot when I discovered them as a 16 teenage girl and now I feel I matured alongside them and their music

[@margina2]

TWICE get bashed a lot everyday since their debut by this pseudo feminist kpop gg stans..and now they have changed concept, they were called "flop" and "boring" and they should go back to their old concept like-

[@leeminhomademestraightagai4134]

People: girl power and feminism forever! Women should be free Also people: OMG cUtE cOnCePtS cAncElLl!1 thEsE weAk aSs bItcHes sO cRingE

[@hsnrb9959]

@@margina2 I hated Twice's cute concept but I like their new mature concept and their 'eyes wide album' was their only *good* album. It's not the same people calling their new music 'flop' - It's more likely cute concept fans who hate the mature concept or casual kpop fans who only like catchy songs

[@DingoTheDemon]

Me, who literally knows nothing about k-pop or k-pop fandom: Ah, yes, I understand. *Doesn't understand at all*

[@Angel-jq9ej]

I also never liked the distinctions between boy groups and girl groups like all of them are k-pop artists and I like their music no matter girl group or boy group

[@ayelen3981]

But can we talk about grown ass men interacting with really underage gg stans like yikesss

[@i-spy9601]

imo in several cases it’s a disaster waiting to happen but if i say something....

[@lerulara]

20:20 SIS!!!! YOU CRACKED THEIR CODE!!!

[@i-spy9601]

they think they’re so sneaky lol

[@lucia5227]

I love kpop and I know not all stans are like that, but the problem with the kpop community as a whole is that they take the anything that has to do with their idols so personal that discussions of feminism, cultural aproppiation, racism, etc. are almost impossible. especially bc they tend to just throw those words at any kpop idol/ group that they dont like so it ends up losing all meaning and I'm TIRED

[@lottieisfashion]

Ive always said this but nothing makes me feel more uncomfortable as a woman as GG fandom spaces like theyve been hostile to me a lesbian.... It feels like they think stanning a gg is like peak feminist behaviour and they dont need to do anything else for actual women.

[@jbbelenkokoro2673]

This is a pretty thoughtful and engaging discussion. It's sad to know that there are people who using "wokeness" and progressive views as a shield for their internal misogyny.

[@lys8779]

I'm too tired to like... properly comment on the matter besides just saying... Yes. Yes I agree. Also can I just say how odd it is that when there are female kpop idols who do loudly stand for feminism, they're dragged to hell and back by these types of Gg Stans tm? By that Im talking about Mamamoo theyre very much targeted by those types of Gg Stans tm who will be performative feminists one minute and then turn around and call MMM ugly or body shame them. It's just tiring and as someone whose fave groups are BTS followed by some girl groups, I don't like involving myself with any of the gg stan circles because of how common shit like that is (besides the moomoo fandom because mamamoo is very loud and proud about their feminism so there's less room for hypocrisy and performativity in the fanbase, that and Mamamoo's fanbase is like 97% female)

[@kitkatpaddywack17]

Phew, another banger of a video (even if it was a rant)! I know you’ve touched upon it before, but I’m really interested on your full thoughts on the negative view people have on teenager girls and their interests and why it exists the way it exists.

[@i-spy9601]

i would love to make an entire video on it someday!

[@loonaaoty3957]

this!!! being on kpop twitter and seeing SO MANY people be like this was extremely tiring. they would say things like these to an extreme point, it became hard to even criticise some groups. and it was really annoying because they would pick and choose which group was fine to criticize based on their past actions??? idk, its kinda 🤨 (also, thank u for adding cc!! i love these videos but a large amount of them dont have cc and its rly hard to understand whats being said most of the time so thank u!!)

[@ciel476]

I've come to realize that arguing with kpop stan on twitter is pointless because a lot of them can't think (or they don't want to).

[@tististisk8753]

You know I couldn't miss an update And a Sims playthrough!?😭 We love to see it.

[@i-spy9601]

owo

[@lsfrules]

a lot of gg fans are so performative about "feminist" in order to drag an artist they don't like or fandom. it happens all the time & i'm tired of it bc you're also shaming other females... stanning a gg is not feminist & never will be!

[@meejjj.]

Sometimes I feel like these male gg stans are trying to project their own flaws on other people and are using the 'i'm a gg stan' card to save face and assure people that they tRuLy appreciate women and respect them

[@tististisk8753]

ot: Loren got a debut song before Rose🤭

[@ellisimple3981]

Why do so many people have a problem with this? I don’t get it

[@ellisimple3981]

@@personisfab9347 I mean isn’t that a good thing? Like at least not another song that was meant for Rosé goes to somebody else

[@tististisk8753]

@@personisfab9347 Considering how long Rose has been "working" on her solo. Loren being Naver's CEO son and having the bp girls practically promote him in lsg ehh~

[@byulharangforlife]

@@personisfab9347 noone is saying it's his fault

[@babisr2921]

loren is the naver's ceo's son, he came into the blacklabel like a year ago, used to work as a DJ in seungri's club, hanged out w shady ass ppl, got free promo from rosé and the rest of bp bc he was in their latest MV and recently we learned that he bullied a kid in high-school so yeah, blinks hate him for a reason. also, rosé been working on her solo for 2 years and this guy w his daddy's money got what she still didnt get.

[@fmh238]

Strangely remembers how gg stans on Twitter loath Jimin for no fucking reason

[@justasimplearmy3798]

Damn that gameplay rly makes me wanna start playing sims again Great video btw (so far xD. I havent whatched the whole thing yet)

[@SMAnthonyW]

The Pokémon mystery dungeon BGM is making me feel a type of way

[@i-spy9601]

✨childhood✨

[@defiantaichi]

Bring a Stan of anything or anyone is not a personality trait.

[@louise2880]

this was a very interesting and well-thought-out video as always! thanks for keeping me company while I cleaned my apartment haha

[@i-spy9601]

oof i really need to sweep the kitchen floor tomorrow don’t remind me... and thank you, glad you’re back!

[@iiTrendyz]

welcome back to yt, you've been missed

[@i-spy9601]

i‘ve missed being here!

[@BerusJ001]

I'm not even into kpop, so idk why I'm here, but this is a VERY informative video, and I've learned A LOT.

[@whalienpippa]

I love a good, wholesome _discussion_ about kpop. I love your channel~ 💖

[@i-spy9601]

thank you

[@gabrielbagon6132]

23:58 why do those lyrics remind me of blackpink song lyrics LMAOOOOOO IM SO SORRY BUT THAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT POPPED INTO MY HEAD 😭😂💀

[@teca9481]

how you like that demo version

[@fairy5668]

If a 'feminist' gets mad that you're pointing out hip pads, they aren't feminists. No feminist would ever condone an unnatural beauty standard like that

[@spiralysts]

idrk what to think abt this, can you help me? in one hand i understand that women have their own decision in what they wanna do abt their bodies, who am i to say “u cant wear that” if it makes them feel confident and beautiful. BUT on the other hand it promotes unnatural beauty standards men set up against women in the first place, im leaning more in the second opinion but im still wondering abt the first one, i cant just go judging women for wanting to look more curvy and attacking them for what they wanna d for their bodies, but i also cant let that slide since these standards are set up on women in the first place, women dont need mens validation, they might wear the hip pads for themselves as they feel beautiful in it rather than the fact they wanna fit in with the societal beauty standard

[@aprils1888]

Damn, you build that urself. You're smart and a good Sims builder xdd.

[@i-spy9601]

dkssjdjd i‘m getting roasted in the discord for being a shit builder 😭

[@mawley3266]

@@i-spy9601 nah you’re fine, I honestly don’t want to hear what they have to say about my houses

[@ΒαρβαραΕιρηνηΜολφετα]

Okay so I remember back when I saw a picture of an idol I think it was Rose from BP and she wasn't wearing a mask in an airport.I said that what she's doing is ignorant and stupid and people should honestly just speak up about her doing this.And can you imagine what happened?😂I got called a Rose hater,a misogynist and a hater of girl groups.The stupidity of those people will never fail to amaze me.I doubt they have a mind at all.

[@ΒαρβαραΕιρηνηΜολφετα]

@happiness TT yeah I can definitely understand you ..I feel like the majority of the people in that fandom are way too overprotective and sensitive about everything .And don't get me wrong ,I love Rose ,she's my favorite out of everyone cause I really like her voice BUT I won't stay silent when idols do something wrong and get away with it,like that's not how its supposed to work .As a fan,you want the best for them,to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them .Unless ofcourse its something extremely ignorant which has to be called out for. But yeah I do agree with you this fandom is overbearing most of the times

[@charlottecomeau1266]

im not even into kpop but this video was so interesting! i love what you said about the fact that girls have been made fun of for their hobbies so much that now when men join the fandom they can do the bare minimum for girls to clump to them, bc we kind of have that in the equestrian community as well. the horse girl joke is super prevalent (ive been made fun of for it as a kid, and yeah, theyre weird but thats fine) so now, when i say i ride (keep in mind ive been doing the sport for 10 years at this point) i often get the "haha dumb horse girl" reaction. male equestrians on tiktok do the BARE minimum and their comments sections are filled with praise and simping while girls get a bunch of shit for the same content in theirs.

[@i-spy9601]

thanks for watching even if kpop isn’t something you’re usually interested in

[@thehappiestwomanamongallwo258]

It's interesting that all of these self proclaimed feminists gg stans you are talking about are... gg stans. I got into kpop early this year and I seem unable to get into girl groups because whenever I consider any feminist implications I feel either sick or pissed off.

[@hehehawhawhehe]

because people, even women, will ruthlessly shame young girls for their interests. boy bands, shows (like sn, twilight, etc.), starbucks. people will do anything to hate on young women and it’s (actually, and not using this word lightly) misogyny. let girls like what girls like. this is the same shit over and over again but a new fandom and i’m tired of seeing it.

[@zai8774]

I just realized you made the "why i unstanned blackpink" video lol I really liked that one and this video so im suscribing now

[@eya4153]

*Cough* blinks *cough*

[@imperialtower]

LMAOOO I LOVE HOW THIS IS OVER YOU DECORATING A HOUSE IN THE SIMS 4 EYE- 😭

[@cupidream9702]

i love the girl crush concept i do but i don’t see why kpop (specifically gg stans) stans think it’s feminism. idk if it’s just me, but something about a lot of men controlling them and writing these songs about feminism just doesn’t sit right w me. i love bp, but for example blinks claim that they’re a feminist girl boss group which in some aspects i agree, but their “feminist” songs r written by men. they talk about being your own person and all that but are controlled by a lot of men. ofc they can still be feminist and badass but idk.

[@Molly-iw1rc]

I wish we can all accept that gg stans and bg stans just like different stuff and it doesn't always have to do with sexism or misogyny. Now technically everything we do is generally influenced by set societal values, so I could argue that everyone is sexist simply because we all grew up in a patriarchal society BUT that is not the same as someone purposefully being sexist, as one is intended for hate while the other is something kinda out of our control unless we decide to change it of course. But liking bg isn't inherently sexist, same with gg stans, so you can't accuse someone of being misogynistic simply by that fact. It's just an excuse for people to spread hate and project their insecurities onto innocent bystanders who are enjoying kpop.

[@josefine6705]

I've always had a difficult time getting into girl groups, because I would usually get introduced to them through different variety shows and the way the hosts would treat them always made me a bit uncomfortable. I know that isn't the girl groups' fault but it made a large portion of their content unwatchable to me. Which is a shame. I did get a bit into Mamamoo about two years ago, but I havn't really kept up with them.

[@freezenut]

sorry but I definitely thought you were gonna say “obsessing over my rack” to rhyme with “these haters are wack” 24:03 MY BAD

[@i-spy9601]

oh no it works too well 🥴

[@octopops]

Yes I was waiting for a video like this!

[@gabriellem9161]

They choose to be "feminists" only when it's about their favs.. and it sucks. I'm sick and tired of peole praizing their ggs for how strong they are for having edgier concepts, wearing leather and being provocative and then go bash other groups for doing something else.. like yeah girlcrush is awesome, I also like it a lot, but it doesn't mean being "girly" is less valid or that their messages aren't relevant, not only for young girls (as people like to think is their only demographic), but for modern society in general. You don't even have to listen to these songs, just don't pull the "i'M a FeMiNisT" card only when it's convinient to you, thanks

[@siennalee8044]

👏