Kamaka Air Fatal Caravan Crash Honolulu 17 Dec

[@JimmysSpeedShop]

I had a mechanic leave a large #2 Matco screw driver under the floor boards of my Caravan, it eventually locked the ailerons. Was loged in the aileron chain. I was able to "rudder" the airplane to a safe landing. Lucky....

[@chrisanderson4799]

Had a buddy have something similar happen in a Super Decathlon. A flashlight jammed the elevator.

[@terrancestodolka4829]

Seems like the fact that something (????? ) may have jammed or broke and caused there loss of control...

[@dalemartell8639]

I was thinking the same. There was a Chinook that went down on a Fire near Salmon, Idaho, copilots iPad fell and ended up jammed under the left rudder pedal.

[@weazleman36]

Fueler only put fuel in the left wing but recorded they put fuel in both wings? You have to manually put fuel in each wing. Seems like it has to be something that happened since it landed.

[@alfredomarquez9777]

Stoopid "aircraft" mechanics, that have no place on this business: They must use a tool storage system that always shows that all tools are retrieved from the job. Std practice.

[@lapenesr]

This one really hit home for me. My son is a new pilot (21yo) and just applied and interviewed with Kamaka Air and is waiting to hear back from them. He does have a good friend that is a captain there (not one of the deceased fortunately) but the whole Kamaka "family" is really tight. They are all devastated. My son is only a year younger than one of the pilots so its really tough for me to get my head around...all my love and sincerest condolences to their families.

[@22nlatitude]

Wait to hear the report. I have 3000 hours in the C208 flying around Hawaii. Ultimately, the plane is very reliable.

[@CFIGreg]

I’m genuinely curious, how did he apply and interview with Kamaka? for at least the last 6 months, their website says they’re not hiring pilots.

[@22nlatitude]

@@CFIGreg there’s no need to list an opening when a current employee already has a potential candidate in mind. Personal references are the best. Pilot jobs are hard to come by in Hawaii.

[@jjsifo1]

Your son just became a more aware Pilot ,and this event will stay with him forever. As Pilots we all learn a lot from other Pilot's incidents,accidents and or experiences.

[@CaptainCurt07]

*Nice explanation! God Speed prayers to the Family’s. Always follow P&P and don’t be complacent about anything especially the ones that can kill you!*

[@MooseGuy1]

Juan, I salute you for having the guts and willingness to dispel the notion that pilots in an out of control accelerated stall could avoid populated areas by design. The media and non-pilots want to believe this and push the false narrative. These days, someone has to be a "hero" in every story. I'm so sorry these 2 pilots lost their lives but in an accelerated stall at 250 feet AGL, where it lands is pure luck. Thank you so much for your channel.

[@PRH123]

Seems to be on the standard media checklist. Along with effusive praise for the selflessness of first responders. And add something regarding families.

[@chrisnoname2725]

@@PRH123it makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy

[@gzk6nk]

In the UK this is known as 'The Biggles Factor'. (Biggles being a fictional WW2 air hero).

[@dougfraser77]

Chuck Yeager said exactly the same thing about accidents. But the media need their "hero narrative."

[@BillyLapTop]

@@PRH123 That is the media's formula.

[@Wayne_Robinson]

Thanks for all the aviation info. I hope you have a safe and happy holiday season.

[@blancolirio]

Thanks Wayne!

[@bruceabrahamsen221]

I had student in a C172 , we were doing turns, he said the controls were getting tight, I took over and found the them very tight. I made it into Ramapo valley airport in n.y. After taking the inside of the plane apart and looking in thei tail I found a large Screw driver jammed in the cables. During a preflight and flight control checks everything appeared normal. I believe it was laying on the cables and found its way between the cables from vibration from movement. Unfortunately people do not take the aircraft apart to check inside the tail. I had a long talk with the mechanic that left it there. I told him that he almost killed us. I definitely got his attention.

[@demef758]

I don't dispute that this is a dumb question, but are mechanics required to do an inventory of their tools before and after servicing every aircraft? I realize that this is far easier said than done, but in today's RFID-crazy world, it would probably be possible to do.

[@TheFlyingZulu]

@@demef758 In in the Air Force we did... and they were super serious about it. I mean VERY serious about tool accountability. I don't know what it's like on the civilian world but I doubt it's as stringent.

[@tootallsvlog103]

@@demef758 No, IMO, it would be impractical to do so and would not prevent most mechanical mistakes.

[@MonkRX]

@@tootallsvlog103 While I agree with this, rules are written in blood. If this actually happens IRL, you better believe this will become enforced.

[@CaptainRon1913]

I remember our mechanic at flight school kept a really organized tool chest. I mean, every tool was in place and lined up perfectly. I mentioned to him it was the most organized tool box I've ever seen. He said, it has to be. I keep track of everything.

[@TomSherwood-z5l]

I saw that too where the Hawaii reporters praised them for intentionally crashing into an empty building as if they had known or if they had any choice of anything in that flight attitude.

[@jamescollier3]

if the media said the sky was blue, I'd look up

[@Cwra1smith]

They did have a huge - FOR LEASE - sign on the roof of that building.

[@Thegr8iam-p7t]

The sky is blue in Hawaii and so is the brains of the left media

[@Fomites]

​@@Cwra1smithAha! So that's why they aimed for it. (Why didn't they aim for flat ground instead of a building?) And they obviously did a thorough preflight, investigating the actual occupation of all buildings within their intended flight envelope, taking into account the best gliding distance etc so that they would only crash into empty ones.

[@efflux89]

I heard a local businessman was just about to sign for it when these two “crashed” the deal. /s

[@idanceforpennies281]

I was in South Africa when a military jet went down (hydraulics failure) about 600m from a school. The pilot punched out seconds before impact. The media was all over it calling the pilot a hero etc etc, but the pilot himself said he had no idea he was near a school because he was working the problem all the time before he left the room. The most he did was using rudder only, he pointed the nose toward "brown and green".

[@jamescollier3]

the media gets 11% correct

[@tomdaley9154]

​@@jamescollier3 I think that's a little bit generous

[@idanceforpennies281]

@@jamescollier3 At just above VMC, the plane stalled and spun after the pilot left. In reality it could have ended up anywhere within a 2Km forward arc. Including on top of the school.

[@BreandanAnraoi]

Mover and Gonky made a similar point recently

[@zackriden79]

its physically push rod aircraft

[@BKD70]

I've got about 9000 hours in the Caravan... my first thought, especially being a training flight, is it could have been a severely mistrimmed rudder. Second thought would be an asymmetric flap situation. The Caravan is not a hard airplane to fly, but it will eat your lunch if you just allow the aircraft to do whatever it wants to do. You have to fly it.

[@ono147]

Could a load shift situation occur? I'm not a pilot, just a former lowly A&P

[@n4189p]

BKD. I personally knew Preston the instructor since he was 16. I watched him grow up around the airport cleaning planes for the company I flew for. I watched him get his Pvt all the way through CFI. I've done the 4R/4L departure thousand of times, always turning to right if your heading to Lanai, where he was heading to do more approaches. For him to turn left and tell the tower he was out of control is pretty mystifying. Your explanation of an asymmetrical flap deployment would make the most sense. I hope the NTSB figures it out. He was a great pilot and a beautiful soul. A real pleasure to be around. May he rest in peace. Thanks for your insight.

[@georgecoons6872]

i perfer flying on the big L1011. or the A319.

[@timkiwi]

Ive had an asymmetric flap failure in the Van. You need to get the flaps away ASAP. Full rudder and ailerons. If you didn’t know what was happening or had slow feet it could easily end just like this. If so the level flight would indicate the flaps weren’t retracted.

[@22nlatitude]

@@ono147 it could occur but not likely on a training flight.

[@islander4986]

I flew the 208B for Corporate air (FEDEX feeder) out of Honolulu in the late 80's, and found it pretty important to close the fuel valves after shut down. Fuel would cross-feed/flow while the planes sat with the valves open, even on a relatively flat ramp as I recall. Setting the rudder trim to center the ball and watching/managing the fuel symmetry in flight was something I learned to do diligently pretty soon after I began flying the 208. Early in my tenure at Corporate Air, someone with Caravan experience showed me that adding left rudder trim to center the ball during long descents was also a good idea to help with fuel balance. It was not unusual to get in the plane after someone who wasn't careful about keeping the fuel quantities in the tanks balanced and find a substantial left/right tank difference. A difference that could result in an annoying necessity to hold constant aileron deflection to fight the imbalance till the fuel on the heavy side was consumed. The Caravans I flew did not have aileron trim. It occurs to me that a fueling blunder could also result in an imbalance. A takeoff/departure stall with excessive fuel in the left tank might be a challenging situation.

[@frederic2166]

I knowingly took off with twice the maximum fuel imbalance. Don't ask me why that's an other story. Trimmed accordingly before starting the take-off roll and some rudder input. C208b trims have a big motion range. One thing that I noticed in 13 years of instruction and check in a part 135 is the common lack of understanding/use of rudder past maintaining the ball center

[@jackielinde7568]

Oooo... I listed improperly loaded and/or balanced cargo as a possibility, but it looks like a fuel balance issue could also be a problem. BTW, did you like flying the caravan, or do you believe there are better options for the role it plays?

[@rogerbrandt6678]

Sounds like that may be the issue with loading cargo wrong.

[@jackielinde7568]

@@rogerbrandt6678 To be fair, I also thought improperly loaded/balanced cargo might be an issue. But quite a few current and former Caravan pilots are all chiming in about the fuel balance issues. So I'm more inclined to give weight (pun accidental) that it would be a fuel balance/loading issue over cargo balance/loading issue.

[@islander4986]

Because this was a training flight, there probably wasn't a a load. I haven't heard any confirmation of that though. The Caravan seemed to be pretty tolerant of aft loading. We had a couple of them reach their destinations with the load far enough aft that upon arrival after the fuel burn and the pilots deplaned, their Caravans "sat" on their tails before the pilot could walk back and attach the tail-stand. I thought the 208, with it's autopilot, weather radar, and simplicity, was a great single-pilot platform. Might be even better now with the modern panel. Corporate Air pilots on the mainland who flew over mountains and in icing conditions complained about insufficient power. Not really a problem for us in the islands.

[@philrulon]

Max lateral fuel imbalance in the 208 is 200 lbs. If the fuel shut-offs are left on and the airplane is parked in an out of level condition, the low tank can exceed the 200 lb. limit in a matter of minutes. 208s are well known for this. These airplanes will tolerate a heavy wing to a point, but if the imbalance is extreme, there could be serious trouble.

[@urgoing21134]

I frequent the South Ramp at HNL and I doubt this is the case but everything is plausible.

[@dpwinfla]

Thanks!

[@philipcobbin3172]

Juan, There was a Textron Owner Advisory: Cessna Caravan Owners shoule replac aileron trim tab pushrod assemblies. Apparently they can fracture without warning, posted by Cessna Owners Organization Feb 15 2019. I just went sniffing as the dramatic aileron roll inputs are not likely by the crew and he did get a radio call out they were out of control. Possible jamming incident? We'll know in due time. Condolences to the families of the lost pilots.

[@itjustlookslikethis]

So how did this get past 5 annual inspections?

[@Fomites]

​@@itjustlookslikethisOmitted or sloppy inspection.

[@alexsze5455]

Thought I was having a stroke trying to read this….

[@jdotsalter910]

@@itjustlookslikethis They may no get annuals because they're Part 135. They probably have some approved progressive inspection. But if they do it in-house with bad mechanics it's absolutely possible. I'm in aviation claims and you'd be shocked by some of the downright criminal maintenance/repairs that get signed off as airworthy.

[@itjustlookslikethis]

@@Fomites Really? I don't allow "sloppy inspections" on my Cessna 172. I'm always right there.

[@HPfly]

Thank you for your quickness in getting this online. I’m sure the media will run with speculations but you present the facts as you know it. Thank you!

[@Porrohman19]

Control locks or some other control surface problem was my first thought looking at the apparent consistent increase in rate of turn straight from take off.

[@gawoodbridge]

That is what came to mind. The left turn looks like a torque roll.

[@General_Ethos]

Yeah, mine too. Or possibly something fell down and got stuck down on the floor between the floor and foot controls

[@6StringPassion.]

@@General_Ethos iPad? It's been known to happen...🤔

[@RubenKelevra]

@@General_Ethos Yeah but there's no reason why you can't fly the plane with elevators and ailerons. Sure, you loose performance, but you don't crash uncontrollably.

[@alanblyde8502]

@@6StringPassion.I noticed on Juan’s post yesterday the pilotin that accident had an iPad on his lap to me that would be a distraction and a possibility of falling off sad news wel have to wait for the investigation

[@chugwaterjack4458]

Excellent discussion of the pilot "avoiding the buildings." Telling it like it is!

[@RobertRobert-d2r]

Exactly. The pilots are always "brave" and "heroic" until their incompetence is brought to light.

[@andrewpease3688]

Yeah, doubt that it has ever happened.Its in the journalist standard procedure manual

[@itjustlookslikethis]

@@RobertRobert-d2r And you know this how? The mighty keyboard pilot. Here's an idea, let the investigators figure out what happened.

[@7000fps]

Yes Juan , I am so glad you pointed this out, it seems every NEWS story on TV they hoist so yokal on camera up who claims "THE PILOT IS A HERO, HE TRIED TO AVOID x y z'' . LOSS of control is OUT-OF-CONTROL! the pilot had no say-so. Thanks for your great detailed work Juan.

[@RonGlasgow-s7l]

I think that it is unfair and unprofessional to say that the pilot had nothing to do with avoiding the buildings. A " Monday morning quarterback without being at the game".?

[@zenoice2171]

I fly 208B and it’s very hard to miss the control lock as mentioned in this video starter and battery master is covered by the lock plate, and rudder lock on the older versions come up with elevator deflection and the newer version’s rudder lock automatically disengages as soon as fuel condition lever is pushed so both seem very unlikely. Curious to see what ntsb finds out

[@RubenKelevra]

Okay, but you don't need the rudder to fly the airplane. Won't be pretty, but you don't crash so uncontrollably.

[@SSaugaCriss]

how distracting is a fire light in the van? (given apparent training sortie)

[@TylerN737s]

@@SSaugaCrissquite distracting & very loud. You’d hear it in radio tx.

[@zenoice2171]

@@SSaugaCriss very distracting and first step on fire detection warning is to pull the breaker out to stop the alarm (inducing the alarm for training could only be done by pressing the detect button which should be pretty apparent)

[@BKD70]

@@RubenKelevra you sure do in a Caravan. 675 hp up front, torque and P-Factor are very real. Ever flown one?? I've got a little over 9000 hours in the Caravan, both the C208B and the EX models. My thinking is they may have severely mistrimmed the rudder, especially being a training flight. Student may have trimmed the rudder the wrong direction (to the left) and the instructor pilot did not catch it.

[@Diogenes425]

Cause & effect scientific analysis. The best I’ve ever heard.

[@zakm0n]

Juan is a true professional, as to be expected of a commercial airline pilot.

[@Les__Mack]

Thank you Juan for another excellent video.

[@peterredfern1174]

So sad,condolences to their families,thanks Juan,safe flights mate,🙏🙏👍🎄🇦🇺

[@johndemerse9172]

Thanks Juan for this analysis. I spend a month every winter in Honolulu and enjoy filming and spotting at PHNL. This is such a heart breaking situation with such young pilots involved. God bless them and their families and you Juan and your family. Cheers from CYYB.

[@sanfranciscobay]

I've always wanted to spend about 4 to 6 months during the winter in Hawaii and then summer in the San Francisco Bay Area. I find Pipeline Surfing Wave on the North Shore of Oahu a fascinating Wave, especially when it's big and bumpy.

[@hawaiianetops9566]

There was some drama with Kamaka surrounding the loss of their key management in June. Word on the ramp was that legal actions were flying around between the involved parties. While this isn't a cause of this accident, discord and drama at an air carrier is always a sign.

[@Glenn-xc5rn]

Juan, thank you for everything you do.

[@TheMotoRockers]

Oh no!! My brother used to fly the Caravan in the San Juan Islands. These things are absolute workhorse airplanes. Very reliable. I'm wondering if there was some kind of mechanical failure with the flight controls. Nothing else makes sense.

[@jamialmedia1102]

Amazing investigation on this horrible crash. The break down of what happened is very educational for us non-pilots. Thank you...

[@iffyaviator]

That is the Aero Twin Inc. rudder Gust lock. they are built on Merrill Field in Anchorage Alaska. they are standard equipment from the Textron factory. There is a tab that uses a pushrod attached to the elevator control horn, when pulling the elevator back that tab releases the gust lock. It is very stout mechanism and fail safe. The ICA requires detailed inspection of the system. you can only engage the gust lock outside the airplane by that triangle lever arm sticking out on the picture displayed.

[@evanyoung9967]

Thanks for your nonbiased and factual coverage of this accident Juan. All of us over here in Hawaii are really having a hard time understanding this one. We landed in HNL just a couple hours prior to this. It really was a perfect day for flying too 😢

[@TrailerE031]

I am not a pilot, and certainly not an air crash investigator. But my best guess on this is that there absolutely was a failure of control surfaces of some type. These young pilots seem to be victims of the problem in making preflight inspections as routine as possible and perhaps overlooked something important.

[@willthacker5182]

I understand why media reports aircraft accidents the way they do, but it would be nice if some of them understood how aircraft accidents occur. Like you said, if they were in control, they wouldn't have crashed to begin with. Anyway, another preventable incident. Thanks for doing what you do Juan. Everyone appreciates your diligent work reporting these things.

[@BobDenny]

Media = Shock, Hate, Outrage, Fear. Poor source of objective info..

[@uberman6023]

Not since Hal Fischman! And that was long...long ago.

[@Goodnplenty61]

I always love Juan's harsh reality of situations. He gave kudos the media reporterbin Houston fuel exhaustion flight. He tells the media what it needs and deserves to hear. Thank you blancoliro!!

[@jjpac2011]

I live in Hawaii and appreciate your coverage of this incident that occurred just yesterday.

[@Matt.Thompson.1976]

Blancolirio is the go-to source for all things aviation. He is good, thorough, and respectful. RIP to the 2 young pilots.

[@jjpac2011]

@@Matt.Thompson.1976 thanks. iagree.

[@Matt.Thompson.1976]

@@jjpac2011 Welcome.

[@finwest]

After watching lots of KHNL coverage yesterday afternoon, I thought of this channel. So I sent an email to Juan asking if he'd check it out. I really appreciate the fast turn to produce some great insight, like the ADS-B data that no one else has covered. My condolences to the family of the pilots and to the co-workers in the Kamaka family.

[@ogerde]

Flap asymmetry on retraction?? Don’t know much about the 208 so just a guess since they were perfectly straight until 200ft. Any 208 pilots know if there is enough aileron authority to overcome one flap up/one down?

[@chrisanderson4799]

As a former Caravan pilot I think your guess is the most logical

[@TylerN737s]

Not sure if you’d have enough aileron if one was at 20 and the other at 0. But generally there shouldn’t be any flap retraction below 400’ and then you do flaps in two stages in this particular 208B, (EX 208’s are different in the flap selection) flaps 20-10 then 10-0.

[@ericmcleod7825]

@@TylerN737s As soon as they break ground the plane starts going left even though the departure requires a left turn... seems sooner than normal flap retraction.

[@deserthawaiian1823]

Caravan mechanic here. 208B flap system is pretty basic. Both left and right flaps are connected through a robust interconnect rod attached to a bellcrank in the right wing dry bay, connected to a single(primary) motor. Making asymmetry pretty hard to do if at all possible.

[@jiyushugi1085]

Got about 4K hrs. in Caravans and while we did have occasional flap motor failures I've never heard of a flap asymmetry on a Caravan. Also not likely to retract all flaps at 200'. Either way, a very puzzling crash.

[@amcam124]

You're the best Juan. Always very informative and interesting. Godspeed to these pilots and family

[@jamesarmstrong8118]

The C208 utilizes one continuous cable loop for both aileron controls. I’m not certain how the system would respond to a cable failure but suspect the yoke would become ineffective. There was an AD around 2010 addressing damaged cables in the cabin overhead at the quadrant, I changed many of those cables as a result of the AD.

[@ecleveland1]

We never know if it’s our time when we get up in the morning. Sad time of the year to lose your loved ones. I’ve lost family during the holidays and it always makes it worse.

[@scotabot7826]

Yes, just heartbreaking. I pray they knew the Lord Christ!!

[@nakfan]

True 😥 My wife lost her brother yesterday...

[@ronmoore5827]

Was just in Hawaii last month. Very lucky that they didn’t crash onto the interstate, that highway is always busy. My condolences to the pilots and their families.

[@cslivestockllc138]

I went for the first time back in July. Agreed, the interstate is very busy, reminded me of CA at times.

[@mytech6779]

There are no interstate roads in HI. The necessary bridge has been held up in the study phase for a while now.

[@ronmoore5827]

@@mytech6779 Ok, I’m from Illinois,and that’s what we call it. I guess expressway would be the proper term and I stand corrected.

[@mytech6779]

@@ronmoore5827 I think the catch all term is limited-access highway. But expressway or freeway seem sufficiently accurate.

[@TMiller808]

​@@mytech6779massive highways .....either way, much was evaded whether one gives any credit to the young pilot or not, I do.

[@darwinism8181]

Private equity buying a business means they want to milk money out of it - which typically means cutting as many corners as possible, and because they don't care to understand businesses and just want a ROI they will gleefully cut the corners that rest on supporting pillars.

[@kpcrn7014]

Private Equity is buying medical practices also. Do you know what PI knows about medicine, the same thing they know about aviation...nothing except squeezing every penny out of it.

[@lvtiguy226]

Thank you for pointing this out. This is exactly what came to my mind too when I heard “private equity.” I am sure the holes in the Swiss cheese will line up with this too.

[@DaveWarstler]

I always scoff at the media saying the pilot was a hero for swerving at the last second to miss a crowded highway, school, or housing development. Most of the time there is no choice in the matter and shear chance where the plane lands. Hate how they make up this stuff to make the story sound better.

[@ecleveland1]

That’s just one reason I don’t watch the mainstream media anymore, even the local affiliate stations. Have you ever seen the weather reporters exaggerating during an out in the field report? It’s just easier to tell the truth and that’s why I watch Juan and value his reporting and commentary.

[@jimw1615]

Yes, there are very few news reporters that arrive on scene with any knowledge of the subject they are there to report on. In our case, the reporting of aviation accidents by the media is little more than telling a story which entertains rather than informs.

[@PRH123]

And first responders are always brave and selfless. Not just doing the job they were hired to do.

[@TheLincolnshireFlyer]

Thank you for the video 👍😊

[@paulis7319]

Thank you for your research! My first thought after watching the video was a classic departure stall, since the ATC audio said they were trying to turn right. An uncoordinated right turn at a high angle of attack would cause a left hand spin.

[@jackielinde7568]

I can think of a few more things Juan didn't list as possible causes: 1. Some issue (either minor or major) occurred on takeoff that distracted both pilots causing them to lose situational awareness until the aircraft was far into the uncontrolled bank. (Something of a common thread for GA accidents, but I don't know how common it's for Part 135 flights.) 2. Juan mentioned heavier load than what should have been on a training flight, but I'm also going to add either an improperly balanced load or incorrectly secured load shifting. Sadly, I don't think Part 135 requires Flight Data and/or Voice Cockpit Recorders for the Caravan. As far as I can tell, it looks like it's only a requirement for multi-engine aircraft, and the Caravan is a single engine. I suspect the resolution of this investigation is going to be a lot of speculation.

[@lindyc.2552]

Heartbreaking to lose these two young pilots! When I worked at a New York airport, there were two Caravans that went down the same night! One in N.Y. and one in VT. Both due to bad weather and icing. I was in the lobby listening to one of the pilots not wanting to go. But, they were freight feeder runs and had to go. Both of them went down. This was over 30 years ago, but I have never forgotten those pilots as they were both very nice people. I also lost a pilot friend in an icing crash in a Beach-18. It's hard in aviation because sooner or later you will lose someone. My heart goes out to the families of these two young men in Hawaii. It is such a a shocking thing to lose someone like that so quickly! I pray for their families comfort and peace...

[@zackriden79]

i dont know if cargo can move around in a caravan but flying cargo lost of control right after rotation is sometimes cargo , i dont think you can take off with the control lock in its too in the way

[@ono147]

I deal with cargo, but on ships, and an A&P, my thought was a load shift

[@joebutler144]

I was doing a walk around at gate E2 for our flight to LA when I saw them takeoff. Didn’t think anything of it when upon getting on frequency to get our clearance ground reported a gate hold for a crash on the field. So sad. Condolences to the families.

[@DUKEKAM1]

I own and fly a 208B, one thing to note , is that. you cant. takeoff with a two hundred pound split in fuel or the plane will role with not enough aileron control!

[@jiyushugi1085]

Actually, you can take off with more than a 200 lb split in fuel. Ask me how I know..... But the manual forbids it for good reason.

[@MrDschubba]

Was going to comment that the Caravan can get a large fuel imbalance if parked on a bit of a slope with both fuel selectors selected on. Sad news.

[@hellkell8693]

@@MrDschubbathe HNL airport is very level so probably not that.

[@islander4986]

I flew the 208B for Corporate air (FEDEX feeder) out of Honolulu in the late 80's, and found it pretty important to close the fuel valves after shut down. Fuel would cross-feed/flow while the planes sat with the valves open, even on a relatively flat ramp as I recall. Setting the rudder trim to center the ball and watching/managing the fuel symmetry in flight was something I learned to do diligently pretty soon after I began flying the 208. Someone with Caravan experience showed me that adding left rudder trim to center the ball during long descents was also a good idea to help with fuel balance. It was not unusual to get in the plane after someone who wasn't careful about keeping the fuel quantities in the tanks balanced and find a substantial left/right tank difference. A difference that could result in an annoying necessity to hold constant aileron deflection to fight the imbalance till the fuel on the heavy side was consumed. The Caravans I flew did not have aileron trim. A takeoff/departure stall with excessive fuel in the left tank might be a challenging situation.

[@BKD70]

@@jiyushugi1085 a LOT more.... ask me how I know also...

[@mlowe3281]

Thank you for your hard work, sir!

[@scottenglert4083]

Definitely seems like a strange one to so immediately veer off course opposite of ATCs direction...

[@bobwilson758]

Excellent engineering on the locks -- impressive !

[@gonetoearth2588]

As usual Juan an excellent analysis and very unbiased! My condolences to all involved. If I had to provide opinion I would certainly say there might be a good chance at NTSB will not find continuity in control cables. I wonder if there’s corrosion since those planes are in that setting in Hawaii and who knows how they are maintained. We’ve seen this before with crashes in the Caribbean due to cable discontinuities.

[@NicolaW72]

Thank you very much!

[@eradicator187]

Did a rusty control cable break?

[@jiyushugi1085]

Interesting..... A friend of mine was killed when this happened on a very old Cessna, as it caused the rudder to deflect fully.

[@chawkinz]

I'm glad you commented on the false hero reporting. That drives me up the wall.

[@johnstreet797]

mainstream media probably reported it as a Boeing 737

[@Edizzle15]

@@johnstreet797heard it was an A380 actually. CNN told me that.

[@DannyStag-d6j]

The TV News anchors and reporters are mainly just teleprompter -readers who know practically nothing about aviation. And the people who write the copy too. (Even on the big networks). What would we do without Juan Brown ? I guess we would have to wait two years for NTSB reports !!

[@paulangeleo2123]

I’m Ron Burgundy?

[@PRH123]

Well, you could watch Dan Gryder also :)

[@atinwoodsman]

Very close to those fuel tanks, prayers to their friends.and families

[@MajorHavoc214]

It always breaks my heart when I see an accident like this.

[@langdons2848]

Purchased by a private equity fund. Lost its senior management. I'm betting that while not directly causal those factors are going to be contrubutory.

[@frankgulla2335]

Juan, great report and background. Thank you

[@stephenturkLA]

2:15 any ideas as to why the ADSB data is not showing any significant gain in altitude after they reach 200 feet? This doesn't look like a normal climb rate at normal takeoff power. Makes me wonder whether they were having a problem, maybe mechanical, and decided to try to return to the airport.

[@dennisclapp7527]

Thanks Juan

[@ffejrevoc]

It's easy to get this aircraft's fuel out of balance. If the fuel selector is left on Both, and the ramp is not level, fuel will gravity transfer. There is a 200 pound imbalance limit for flight. It looks like a takeoff with fuel out of balance.

[@GeomancerHT]

Fatal crash today in Argentina, a plane couldn't stop and crashed to badly placed houses close to an airport, hoping to se a report on this chanel soon, thank you!

[@randym7511]

As always, excellent professional reporting. Thank you, sir.

[@orthopraxis235]

Decreasing radius turns are a problem on the ground too, everywhere. If I recall from motorcycle school, On a motorcycle, that kind of tightening turn is one of the leading cyclist only crashes.

[@briankeeley6464]

We do not know if control surface locks were involved in this incident but having worked on the flightline for twenty four years I learned that the hardest part of flight operations is the checklist. To perform them consistently and completely every time is hard for humans to do. Perhaps the hardest part of Aviation.

[@jemez_mtn]

I don't completely disagree, but it's more like hard to not be complacent in general, which affects the whole flight often including checklists. I have 8000 hours in turboprops, mostly multi but also C208, from airline to bush ops, and religiously stick to SOPs and checklists to try to prevent complacency because of seeing so many accidents caused by it. If insanely experienced fighter pilots can kill themselves by leaving a control lock in on a casual flight, I am certainly not immune from it.

[@noonedude101]

I had an elevator lock up on me - but it checked free and correct on the ground - in a Cessna 421 Maintenance had worked on the trim system, and it was calibrated incorrectly (not at all). Full nose down trim was still trimming significantly nose up. Once it had air flowing over it, we couldn't pitch down. My FO and I basically bench pressed the yoke forward all the way to landing.

[@ericfielding2540]

Thanks for the early update on this tragic accident. I hope the NTSB keeps getting the funding they need to do their excellent work because the accidents are not going to stop.

[@corvette724]

Very detailed analyses with knowledge of every bolt of this particular aircraft. I'm currently at Honolulu and heard about in the local news. No speculation from my side, Just so sad. I only can say, with ny glider instructions i been trained first, stall and recover My prayers are with this 2 young men and their families. What a tragedy. .

[@davidsatterfield3105]

Fuel imbalance?

[@ExactlyLikeVermont]

Thanks Juan, as always...greetings from VT.

[@DrDeuteron]

can you explain what part 135 operation means?

[@ffejrevoc]

It's FAR 135 rules

[@paulsherman51]

Charter operations.

[@hardware1197]

Heard the audio of the ATC last night. Very calm comms from a man who knows he's seconds from the end. RIP.

[@TheLoper5]

The news was saying that one of the pilot's "was working on getting his license". Not sure what that means, but it was a training flight. Was Kamaka running a flight school? Or was the news mistaken and this was just New Hire training?

[@Fomites]

Probably the latter.

[@DavidG-59]

Thanks Juan. The quick debunking of the nonsense in some of the media is very valuable I think.

[@georgeross9834]

Stall speed increases by a square of the bank angle. Does the 208 have a rudder trim ?could be it was the problem as 2nd effect of rudder is Bank

[@SteamCrane]

With that many flights in one day, were they doing control checks and checklists on every flight?

[@Cwarnershspes72]

There’s been so many Helo & Small aircraft crashes all over those islands .. it never even gets Pub la sized

[@mikeaudio]

Thank you Juan for a good early analysis. I will say, I enjoyed your briefings last year when the Christmas tree was in your camera view. I miss seeing the tree this year! ❤🌲🎄

[@theprof73]

Asymmetrical flap retraction?

[@danwaudi]

Knowing a tiny bit about the C208 this was my thought as well

[@jimgraham6722]

Yep, that could do it.

[@ericmcleod7825]

As soon as they break ground the plane starts going left even though the departure requires a left turn... seems sooner than normal flap retraction.

[@diamondnbkpr]

On October 7, 2024 we had Caravan crash with a nearly identical trajectory just after takeoff. The wreckage burned immediately with one fatality. The Beech C99 (N130GP) had just made a stop for UPS packages at Norfolk Regional Airprt (KOFK) and was taking off on the last leg to Omaha, NE. Normal turnout would be left but either the pilot was immediately turning back to the airfield or out of control. There is no tower at Norfolk which is E2 airspace so there was may not be any radio traffic recorded. I live by the airport and heard the impact. Surveillance video showed a large fireball. As a first responder I went directly to the crash site with most of the wreckage already consumed.

[@smark1180]

"we had Caravan crash with a nearly identical trajectory just after takeoff. The wreckage burned immediately with one fatality. The Beech C99 (N130GP) had just made a stop" Wut?

[@diamondnbkpr]

The ‘stop’ was the end of the first leg from another airport. Sorry that was not clearer. The aircraft had not stopped before crashing.

[@rickrickard2788]

I was going to post exactly that, on a few of the news sites I was reading on this, (in regards to the pilots avoiding anything- they said it themselves- they were out of control)- I think they might have been say that? Because at a couple points, we can see the yaw of the aircraft, (the tail sliding slightly to the right), that might have confused some of the witnesses to say that. That yaw? Actually seemed to make the situation worse. I'm wondering if, like you said, there was something else actually wrong with the craft, as they started off to the left so early. The yaw looked strange, like maybe the pilot was really slamming those pedals, trying to get more from them. Maybe I was seeing things, I'm going to try and find that video from earlier, that was zoomed in, and fairly clear. If I do, I'll come back and post it, if you don't mind, and would like to see it.

[@MaryK4242]

Thank you Juan.

[@d.t.4523]

Thank you Juan. It's sad news again.

[@joesillamanrs7189]

Maintenance has always been rough out here. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a mechanical issue.

[@hopefloats7573]

Anybody catch that they had been sold to Private Equity?

[@charlescanton4740]

PHNL has some of the best flying and maintaining conditions in the world. I have flown in and out upwards of 200 trips and have met numerous mechanics and pilots and wouldn't categorize any of them as 'rough'. Rough would be like Christmas Island, out in the weeds, where you have no facilities and no direct access to support.

[@zachjones6944]

@@hopefloats7573 I noticed that. Scary.

[@rosscollins2910]

@@hopefloats7573shareholder dividends priority #1.

[@TheGospelQuartetParadise]

Rest in peace to the airmen and condolences to their families.

[@TobinTwinsHockey]

Such a strange accident sequence. RIP boys. Fair winds and clear sky’s from here on.

[@flyjarrett]

Is there aileron or rudder trim on this airplane?

[@AlbertHess-xy7ky]

yes

[@SSaugaCriss]

yes

[@russelltaylor535]

The VFR conditions would appear to rule out any kind of spatial disorientation so then we are left with a mechanical failure of some kind. With that apparently unintended steep left bank you would have to assume the pilot flying would have cranked in full opposite aileron and opposite rudder. Hopefully there is enough resolution in the videos of the mishap to determine the position of the ailerons and rudder while it was in that steep bank. They had enough airspeed to recover if the control surfaces were operating normally. That in itself suggests they weren’t. Did something break or jam during the takeoff roll?

[@steveb1739]

Juan, would you please let us have a vid on the Challenger -300 in Argentina?

[@deannewbern6810]

I was one of a couple A&P mechanics performing a 100 hr. on a Caravan at Dillon's Aviation, Greenville, NC in 2002 and discovered a frayed control cable via an inspection panel on the underside of the wing (for one of the ailerons if I remember.) If I had not discovered the fraying cable it would have snapped, eventually.

[@pittss2c601]

I have flown an Extra 300 off of 4L a few times. I have also flown off of 4R many times in Cessna’s. The heavy’s use the big runway including the F22 Raptors although not always. Sometimes they use 4L or 4R although its typically for GA aircraft. ATC always makes me circle and wait for a while to land. You must always plan for their landing hold with your fuel quantity before takeoff.

[@tonyw3655]

Can you fuel just one wing tank or will the fuel transfer to both wing tanks on it own. Just wondering if someone got side track and in fueled the left tank only.

[@ehudgavron9086]

Love the analysis.

[@steveroop7455]

Could it be an asymmetric takeoff flap retraction? Had that happen on a Piper Comanche years ago, inducing a roll input that overpowered roll control as the airplane accelerated.

[@scotabot7826]

Flaps are NOT required for TO. A C208 is nothing more than a large C172. Very easy amd forgiving airplane to fly!!

[@44hawk28]

If they had control locks applied the problem would have started to exhibit itself during takeoff roll. I'm wondering if they didn't lose some sort of a control mechanism to the right aileron. That's the only thing I can think of off hand. I had a little bit of a thought about a runaway trim but that plane I believe still has manual trim but I'm not certain of that. I have seen incidences slightly similar to this with Cessna High Wings when somebody has too much flaps applied during takeoff

[@David-vf9de]

Thanks Juan...until you explained the control locks covering ignition and the rudder auto lock disengagement with elevator, my instinct was yoke or external locks. I have no experience or knowledge of the 208 so appreciate your education for us. RIP to the pilots.

[@tbm3fan913]

I was following along like I always do till the end when I heard "Private Equity" and went oh, no...

[@benjaminhanke79]

This reminds me so much of Juan's video where this experienced but retired fighter pilot **edit** --nick-- named "Snodgrass" died in a small plane when he forgot the control lock. Tragic and shocking.

[@Kevin_747]

Snodgrass is his real name, not a nickname.

[@benjaminhanke79]

@Kevin_747 ok then it was "Snort" Snodgrass, sorry I mixed that up.

[@freds5619]

Snort had more hours in the Tomcat than anyone else.

[@yucannthahvitt]

@@freds5619and now he’s gone because of complacency. All he had to do was use his checklist

[@jamesfinley1075]

"Call sign"...not "nickname."

[@pfsantos007]

Load shift to the left or CG issue?

[@sandymj3w633]

Condolences for both families 😢

[@Bored1962]

This is a tragedy, but to say the pilot was a hero for maneuvering the aircraft to miss populated areas is idiotic

[@skyepilotte11]

RIP those two pilots... It's all conjecture as to the cause at this point. We'll wait for the official report. Thx Juan

[@TomSherwood-z5l]

I was waiting for you to spot this story today. The ATC tape said they were supposed to turn right on departure?

[@vgrof2315]

Right turn, standard departure from the #4 runways.

[@paulbrouyere1735]

Seeing this, could be a rudder problem, but could also be something wrong with the ailerons. They could go straight forward when they were taking off; so rudder is less likely. As a RC modeler I once had to land a plane where the quick link of the stabilizer broke loose… I could land it using only engine. In case something happens with one of the ailerons, I guess you might see something like this happen