Kammerlader loading from paper cartridge.

Loading a Norwegian Model 1849/55/59 Kammerlader with the pattern 1861 paper cartridge

[@bensamule3252]

that looks like a long time but compared to muskets and muzzle loaders its a lot faster

[@jeffreyottinger3165]

If only people actually knew just how fast we witness an that guy was taking his time.

[@marcobalducci5395]

Well, paper cartridges are how you would load a muzzleloading firearm in the first place, the only thing that you can skip is ramming the ball down into the barrel, which is the main advantage of a breech loading firearm, you can have a rifled barrel, and load it without too much trouble.

[@censorduck]

what's more impotant is this can easily be done prone or kneeling

[@Gameprojordan]

It's a stop gap between a breach loaded cartridge fired rifle and muzzle loaded powder and ball rifle

[@Lyl_Gamescook]

I probably would be able to shoot 2‐3 times in 20 seconds if I was loading as fast as I can and didn't make any mistakes.

[@323guiltyspark]

Something I don't think many people realize: this video, which encompasses the entire reloading process, is 34 seconds long, and that's when he is doing it slowly and deliberately. With a minie ball and ramrod, you'd be considered lighting fast if you can reload and get off a shot in 20 seconds. At full speed and in combat, I can see someone reloading and firing this rifle in 10 seconds or less.

[@bgeipel]

Yep - I am hardly trained and had the cartridge and cap just held in my hand at the firing line with no pouches. You will note that the cap got stuck in my wedding ring :) Here is a video of me shooting it for the Cabin Fever Challenge 2022. I Was still fumbling around. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@pdenigma9444]

@@bgeipel You should put that video link in a pinned comment in the comment section. That way, more people can see you shoot it.

[@afoxinaviators4105]

Not to mention you can do this entirely from the prone... A traditional musket would present an enticing target standing up reloading, while someone with one of these could lie flat and make themselves harder to hit.

[@kniter01]

>in combat eh idk, duress is a good reason for people to start fumbling anything. I don't see this being doable in 10 seconds under stress

[@Iceman-kr6df]

@@kniter01 Id say the original comments times are closer to what you’d see from a spectacularly fast drill, still impressive but not what you’d see in combat. This is probably a small bit faster just bc you don’t have to ram the bullet all the way down, biggest benefit would be prone reloading

[@Sean-ii6sz]

That is just plain cool, gun makers back then were on a different level of skill.

[@egekaandogan8022]

Humans thinked and invented way too much in 19th century

[@DaBlaccGhost]

My pistol has 18+1 a laser and fits in my belt, Let's not get too nostalgic my guy.

[@beefestrogen5276]

If you think that's neat check out Forgotten Weapons G11 And AN-94 videos.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

It's cool, and a good design for the time, but engineers today are doing things these guys would think was magic. Revolutionary concepts are just that, no matter the technology level. I know you meant no offense, but you just offhadedly insulted all the engineers and designers of every other time.

[@Dervitox]

@@DaBlaccGhost your pistol wouldnt existed whitout this basis

[@richardelliott9511]

Fun to see but it looks a bit fiddley, it would be interesting to find some kind of original document showing how this was meant to be done. Thanks for sharing!

[@bgeipel]

The paper cartridge was made to original specs. Getting the cap stuck in my wedding ring was not. The cartridge wound have been pulled from a cartridge box on the shooters left side and the cap from an external pocket on the pouch.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@bgeipel paper carts were quite a convenient way to load black powder firearms. lots of people don't understand that a paper cartridge unless for needle fired doesn't work like modern metallic cartridges.

[@ledocteur7701]

@@toomanyaccounts I always thought you just put the paper cartridge in, and only put the primer separately (since paper is soft and the primer wouldn't work reliably as a result) you learn something new everyday ! edit : looks like I got confused with combustible cartridge, wish do burn with the powder unlike here.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@ledocteur7701 needlefire guns used a needle to punch the primer which was inside the paper cart. hence two different types of paper carts in use. one was like cased ammo which was combustible paper the other way more common was just a convenient way to carry the wadding, shot or bullet and gunpowder.

[@Bubbybub0077]

Just how post cartridge development firearms are very interesting because they were just figuring stuff out, this transition from muzzleloaders to breechloaders is very interesting. You can see how the cartridge was the natural evolution of this and the ability to machine the brass easily for the, well, brass was holding them back. The same goes for the last of the propeller driven fighters and early jet aircraft, a fascinating time of innovation on both sides.

[@justindunlap1235]

Forgotten weapons has an interesting video on a 17th century wheel lock rifle that had a removable chamber that acted like a cartridge. It's really all amazing piece of craftsmanship. Here's a link... kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJaymKB5rcqbbaM

[@swojal1493]

Thats so cool. All of the different types of early breech loading rifles never cease to amaze me, you just keep finding out about more and more models and kinds. So cool

[@ivanthehunter3530]

Not only is this faster then traditional muzzle loaders, this also allows you to have a rifled barrel. Just to clarify, rifled muzzle loaders existed, ofcourse. But they where more difficult to load, and alot slower then traditional smooth bore muskets. So In essence, this right here is two birds with one stone

[@bgeipel]

Yes - and this particular model predates the Minnie system.

[@jte7438]

Holy guacamole, My grandfather used to have that exact rifle hanging on his wall when I was a kid, and I've been wondering for years what rifle that was because I've never seen it anywhere else! Thank you, this at last puts a nagging question off my mind.

[@bgeipel]

I would be interested to know where your grandfather lived and when. There are very few identified Kammerlader in the USA.

[@shirolee]

Amazing!!! I bet this was revolutionary when it came out!

[@Tippet76]

Its basically the same idea as those glock carriers that turn them into rifles. You essentially have a pistol length barrel that you load from the muzzle then put that barrel into a longer barrel.

[@clydebalcom3679]

This is so interesting. I would like to see more of this firearm.

[@bgeipel]

here I am shooting it in the Cabin Fever Challenge; kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@koiboitracy4648]

I have no idea what this rifle is but I am intrigued Coolest thing I've seen since I discovered wheellocks

[@bgeipel]

here are more details on the rifle as well as my entry into the Cabin Fever Challenge using it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@bgeipel]

@Laseranon sure. But these are direct copies of the historical 1861 pattern cartridge for the kammerlader.

[@fullmindstorm]

Thats an elegant system

[@edgarmaestre6622]

Nice! I like this old gun

[@TheStygian]

It means "Chamber loader" very cool!!

[@Justin-ds1ev]

what a neat idea. I've never seen a gun like that.

[@skinisdelicious3365]

Love how all guns back then took so long to load and whenever someone had a new idea for a gun it just took long as hell somewhere else on the gun

[@omnipotentdwarf571]

That's an interesting design.

[@CA.0verview]

Dang I can imagine how fast that can be done

[@andrewwupori6163]

Hold up hold up just lemme reload real quick. Go and get a coffee I'll be here a while lol. Old guns are funny

[@bgeipel]

And a tremendous amount of fun to shoot!

[@globofgreen]

I’d buy one in a heartbeat

[@zacharyrollick6169]

I REALLY want one of these.

[@eschus2057]

That is quite cool never seen this before

[@larrycable1948]

Late model variation based off the Halls Rifle? The Sharps comes out in about six years with a more practical loading system. I never understood why Jean Samuel Pauly's breechloader with a real self contained cartridge never caught on.

[@name20411]

my thought: imagine trying to ensure cardboard walled cartridges with metal tails would be able to be produced in number such that they would be easily or reliably fittable, given the probable shifting of climate conditions and the liklihood of them being basically stored in a barrel.

[@bgeipel]

Yes - the Kammerlader was based on the Hall Rifle. It came out in the 1840s so was really more of a gap filler between patched ball and the Minnie system which was pretty universally adopted in the 1850s. My Kammerlader was a dead end - but cool.

[@larrycable1948]

@@bgeipel The Halls was innovative for the period, but its place in history should be as much about the manufacturing advance Hall made that allowed interchangeable parts. Big plus for military rifles. That system reappeared in the Burnside, which used that strange metallic cartridge that you loaded from the front of the breechblock.

[@CaptainPrincess]

YOO THAT LOOKS RAD ASF

[@Ferretil]

now that’s a pixie stick if i’ve ever seen one

[@marumisu9560]

This is like finding the missing link between flintlock rifles and cartridges.

[@Chris-wp8po]

When reloading was an art.

[@joseignaciohileradorna5122]

That's su fricking cool

[@nguyenduythang7598]

first time i saw this type of reload

[@wolfoframa]

So there's no need to ram the bullet down harder than thumb pressure?

[@bgeipel]

Nope. That is all it takes!

[@vladimirputin3081]

"Mom can we get musket?" "We have musket at home." Musket at home:

[@FontaineLovers]

back then they already invented this and they still need such a long time to create modern breechloader

[@StopMoshin]

I've never heard of these things before but it looks surprisingly similar to a fantasy concept I came up with a while ago.

[@toomanyaccounts]

It is still astounding how many people don't comprehend that when discussing paper carts there are two different types. one that was just a convenient way to carry the powder, wadding and ball then you have the second much rarer used type that was used in needle fire guns that was loaded like the ammo used in modern firearms.

[@SilntObsvr]

"Combustible" paper cartridges are also the standard type for cap and ball revolvers. To load: a) make sure all chambers are empty. b) drop an entire cartridge into the first chamber before the loading lever. c) rotate cartridge under rammer. d) ram. Repeat five or six times (depending on your level of confidence in the gun's safety notch and where you are), then cap the loaded chambers and ready to shoot. No tearing open, no separate loading of powder and bullet. The wrap is thin paper, often impregnated with saltpeter, or "skin" (waterproof cartridges) coated with cellulose nitrate lacquer; it ruptures during ramming so the cap doesn't have to break through the paper to ignite the charge. The entire cartridge is, in my experience, consumed cleanly, leaving the fired chambers ready to load again. Lubricant on the exterior of the bullet removes the need to grease over the load and keeps fouling soft so anywhere up to a dozen full cylinder reloads can be fired before the gun gets hard to operate (this might be extended with better handling of the cylinder pivot pin). There were also cap-fired rifles with a falling block type mechanism -- open breech, insert paper cartridge (tail sticks out), close breech (shearing off the tail so the cartridge is open to the breech block), cap, and ready to fire. FAST loading for before brass cartridges, no "fail without warning" needle firing pin. Downside was that the breech would spray a little gas/fire at firing, and more so as the gun got worn.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@SilntObsvr not true. many people still do and did back then of putting powder, wadding, bullet then ramrod it in. if they had it they also put beeswax to limit the risk of a chain fire

[@SilntObsvr]

@@toomanyaccounts I didn't say no one loaded loose ammunition -- I've done it most of the times I've shot my cap and ball revolver, and only ever did loose powder, patch, and ball when I had my muzzle loading pistol. However, these breech loaders were always *intended* to use paper cartridges, because they were military designs and every military in the world had been using paper cartridges since the early 18th century at least (they existed in the 17th). Everything premeasured, so quick loading -- which was almost everything before massed troops finally went out of fashion around 1918.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@SilntObsvr yeah but they weren't used like people think the word cartridge means. they were just a more convenient way of carrying the stuff, until you ripped the top off by way of your teeth, then loaded the components one by one into the rifle

[@SilntObsvr]

@@toomanyaccounts Hence "paper cartridges" vs. "brass cartridges" -- though I've made and shot paper cartridges for my Pietta revolver that load into the chamber in one piece. Those are "combustible paper cartridges" -- paper thin enough for the cap flame to burst through it even if the paper didn't rupture over the nipple vent, and completely burn away with the powder. Makes loading a cap and ball competitive with loading a single action revolver like a Peacemaker. Brass cartridges won out because they're sturdier and more weatherproof, not because they were initially a bunch faster.

[@shawndavis2616]

I really like how the shooter adapted the Enfield paper cartrige for use in this weapon; it clearly works well. Would've liked a few more seconds to see how it shoots.

[@bgeipel]

I wish I could take credit for the cartridge, but I made this using the historical pattern which is, as you noted, based on the excellent Enfield paper cartridge! To see my pitiful attempt and positional shooting with the Kammerlader, please check out this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@bennyfreenest]

I was waiting for the shoot, and then hear "okay" finish....🤣

[@bgeipel]

Here is a video of me shooting it for the Cabin Fever Challenge 2022 kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@notoriousbills]

Neat, I’m a little wary of the snub nose .58 cal pointed up near my head while I put a cap on it.

[@bgeipel]

Very. Very worried.

[@TheRealSkeetman]

You’ve committed a cardinal sin, you didn’t fire it. Cool gun though!

[@bgeipel]

Here you go kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@davidgruen7423]

This is comparable to percussion cap sharps rifle, gotta say the Germans and the French are on a different level.

[@keithkatschke8036]

How does that shoot? Very cool.

[@bgeipel]

Its an okay shooter accuracy wise. With the Kammerlader, it is all about the cool factor

[@SpoopyChicken]

I've loaded a musket before and my god I wish it was this easy instead of having to flip the gun every single time I want to reload.

[@miafillene4396]

So the paper of the cartridge also acts as wadding for the bullet...that's...really well designed.

[@bgeipel]

In this design, the paper works as a paper patch - even better than wadding! Here is a video showing how I contracted them per historical spec. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmaxmax6nKZol8k

[@West_Coast_Mainline]

Nice

[@badfoody]

Can u imagine how pissed off the musket using soldiers would be if they ever found out this existed This is an 1849 rifle The Merican Civil War was in the 1860s More than enough time to adopt a better weapon Though maybe the production costs would be too much. Took the Civil War to convince the world that muskets suck hahaha

[@karipaturketo5438]

That's the semi of its day..😄😄

[@donsmith4935]

From the thumbnail I thought this was a weird m1 Garand

[@mackenzieneel151]

Anyone else reminded of the Mando's rifle from the Mandalorian?

[@fishwithagungun5381]

nice gun

[@rayanderson5797]

I didn't know this sort of mechanism existed. I wonder why it didn't catch on? My guess would be that it was too complex for large scale use, and by the time they could have afforded it, brass cases were around, and much more efficient. Just at a guess, though.

[@wotwott2319]

By the time these single shots were made, pinfire cartridges became a thing, which later develops into brass striker cartridges

[@Real-Grandpa]

i think we mass produced and used them as standard issue in norway actually but i could be wrong

[@bgeipel]

yes - this was the standard issue Norwegian rifle from 1842-1862. As for why it did not get wide spread use probably has a s much to do with the Minnie style rifles being just as fast, if not faster to reload (as long as you are standing) and much easier to produce.

[@RGHuron]

what the fuck.......wow this is amazing idk how ive never seen one of these actions before...

[@delvinciposterkid]

Would you be concerned of embers igniting the powder pour during a mad minute?

[@bgeipel]

Yes. This is another reason that the Pritchett style cartridge is better. Worse case the powder would flash.

[@blcklstd6156]

Imagine missing than having to reload when a guy is rushing you with a musket

[@bgeipel]

Remain Calm and Fix Bayonets

[@averyh1130]

I want this in H3VR like right now

[@TheLordReverend]

Damn now I have freedom blue balls!

[@johnnysdlhour]

Gabe Newell with the new half-life 3 main weapon

[@JackFoxtrotEDM]

Ooh, what’s this? A new gun request for H3VR, I see?

[@yeshuaalexandrebernalcorva4963]

Cuantas rondas puede disparar ante de que se deba limpiar el rifle?

[@bgeipel]

El barril se estrecha para que puedas disparar todo el día sin mucha limpieza.

[@yeshuaalexandrebernalcorva4963]

@@bgeipel gracias por la información

[@konstantinzhdanov5461]

Fine 👍👍

[@fongxiong1929]

Wow it tuck the primer inside the rifle. How well does the primer stay?

[@bgeipel]

Pretty well, but it would be something that would concern me. In that era, rifles were not generally carried primed.

[@SomeKrieger]

Cod kid: I’m put a drum on it

[@agustinsida8877]

"now with 1.7 rpm we were able to win the war"

[@Deshenne]

when you have -10 to reload, but +5 to efficiency.

[@DeathLord6545]

Would this constitute a muzzleloader for the sake of hunting season restrictions? Or would it not since it gets loaded at the action?

[@bgeipel]

Definitely would not be a muzzleloader for most US state hunting seasons.

[@lookarabbit2888]

Never seen one of these

[@Angutha_Chhap]

💘

[@thomas0670]

That be cool if I saw him fire it

[@bgeipel]

Here you go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@JacobthePoshPotato]

Breech loading percussion shotgun?

[@bgeipel]

It is a chamber loading percussion rifle made in 1849

[@codyshi4743]

Why can’t that guy just cut one end of the paper cartridge and put the whole thing in with one end cut going in first.

[@bgeipel]

This method of paper cartridge construction was the final type for muzzleloaders. The benefit are a stiff powder chamber and a clean lubed paper patch around the base of the bullet. It is a much more robust cartridge than one where there powder chamber was "crushable" and the bullet did not have a consistent paper patch. Believe it or not, those guys back then knew what they were doing.

[@nicholasmorgan7609]

Neat

[@atfagent9430]

think this might violate the 30 round magazine policy on youtube

[@bgeipel]

If they found the number of rounds in the pouch! 😜

[@atfagent9430]

@@bgeipel yea lol

[@JonasNeumann6]

This is so close to regular cartridges. Just replace the paper with brass tube and put the percussion cap in the back. You dont even need to clean the chamber from the black powder smudge

[@threehundredblackout]

Tactical reload

[@Ghostmaxi1337]

Woa looks like something out of a light novel. And still hella cool, the name sounds german?

[@bgeipel]

Norwegian in this case

[@Ghostmaxi1337]

@@bgeipel oh cool

[@bortrex11706]

That is a slowest reload I've ever seen on a gun for a one bullet irl

[@bgeipel]

you should watch more muzzleloader videos! This is fast

[@bangkim3885]

Cover me! i'm reloading!!!

[@quebardoesto12]

Okay...*misses the shot"

[@maxthompson1853]

You in a warzone be like just a second

[@bgeipel]

But in 1849 it would have been the fastest reload.

[@potatortheomnipotentspud]

What is that? When was it made? Who was it made by?

[@bgeipel]

Norwegian Kammerlader model 1849/55/59. This one was made in 1849 and later updated to the 1855 and then again in 1859.

[@zirjaeger4037]

I want one

[@ArgoPower]

why are you not using nitrate paper end bullet one piece?

[@bgeipel]

No need for nitrated paper. The paper around the bullet acts as a paper patch so you want it entirely in place. The powder end is “stiff” to make it durable. Nitrated paper would not be able to hold up.

[@elijahreeves4890]

woah

[@zoeymcshane4789]

Does Kammerlader literally translate to Cam-Loader?

[@bgeipel]

Chamber Loader

[@egormoscal]

Bruh the cartridge looks like candy

[@777BIGschott]

"Just as the founding fathers intended!"

[@skijjy1362]

Makes me wonder why they wouldn't just make it so you could put that paper cartridge in without tearing... like just flip the slug and let the powder sit behind it

[@bgeipel]

Earlier versions gig that but they were not as robust and did not have the perfect paper patch setup as this cartridge. The English “Pritchett” cartridge is the same setup.

[@reaper2579]

Imagine if the American civil war north uses these guns….

[@manle8517]

Where ía your hammer 🤣

[@jeffreyottinger3165]

I don’t even know if I can load my trapper pistol that fast maybe if I drop the rod.

[@christianpaul4658]

The shooting is the best part. Why not record it?!

[@bgeipel]

Here is a video of me shooting it for the Cabin Fever Challenge 2022 kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@bananainacup]

Remember solider switching to your sidearm is always faster than reloading

[@bgeipel]

A foot soldier in the mid 19th century would not have a sidearm other than his bayonet.

[@bananainacup]

@@bgeipel I know Twas but a meme

[@throatpunch4789]

No shoot??

[@bgeipel]

Here you go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSYpWScebegqJo

[@throatpunch4789]

@@bgeipel BAD ASS! Question: was the paper cartridge strictly for military or did everyone use them?

[@bgeipel]

This particular rifle is very hard to load without a paper cartridge. Historically civilians would also make use of paper cartridges when they could - especially for smooth bore muskets. In general they were not hard to produce, but they provided little benefit for round ball rifles.

[@raptus9115]

By the time you loaded that thing somebody has already broken the 21 feet rule, the 42 feet rule and the 84 feet rule.

[@bgeipel]

I guess that is true in 2022. This rifle was made in 1849. Slightly different rules.

[@JonasNeumann6]

Fun fact: Kammerlader is German for chamberloader

[@bgeipel]

Or in this case, Norwegian

[@slapurmom5667]

That is exactly what our dear leaders want guns owners to have compared to their arsenal.

[@autoredox]

Ok

[@alguienjajjajajajajaajjq]

mandalorian rifle be like:

[@Max-oi4kj]

Прикольно, довольно просто и логично сделано. Единственное, что брандтрубка в неудобном месте, я бы сделал ее сверху и внешний курок.

[@bgeipel]

Agreed. The "nipple" is in a very poor place. This rifle was derived from the American Hall rifle. Those, once converted from flint to percussion, had the nipple on top as well as retaining the hammer on top as well. There is a reason the Kammerlader is a very rare rifle :)

[@brick_boy0891]

Did you know that kammerlader is chamberloader

[@brocklesnar8818]

Two shots per minute ??? Who need THAT much firepower???

[@bgeipel]

A trained soldier could probably get off four or five shots a minute - and could load it without needing to stand! That was pretty big. Also, this rifle was deployed prior to the invention of the Minnie ball so loading of rifles was very slow - this was a big breakthrough. Regardless, the armies of the world opted for the Minnie system as loading was similar (except from the muzzle) without the need for the expensive opening breach that this Kammerlader had.

[@brocklesnar8818]

@@bgeipel thanks for the information