KarQ ranks HIGHEST SKILL CEILING Heroes in Overwatch 2

Talk ya trash. Doom hard.
Disclaimer: Tier lists are opinions. Take it with a grain of salt. Don't let opinions prevent you from enjoying the game and having fun.
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[@aceclop]

All I know is that my hanzo is more inconsistent than my emotional state. Like, I could literally pop five people in a row and then miss a point blank junkrat who doesn't even know I'm next to him and then after missing 7 times, he'll turn around combo me and cap point.

[@anthoniemccay]

I found one of my people

[@aceclop]

@@anthoniemccay Bi polar hanzos of the world unite lol

[@garymcjerry]

It’s always a fucking junkrat for me too, can’t ever seem to hit that tall skinny mf.

[@Juniisandesu]

Literally me playing Hanzo

[@clintmcbride7830]

@@aceclop yes

[@Th3GravyTrain]

Hardest thing to master as Zen mains is waiting till the end of every video to watch the relevant information pertaining to you.

[@jacobweeks1110]

"A warriors greatest weapon.... is patience" - Robot Ghandi

[@aguyontheinternet8436]

“A patient omnic has a harmonious effect before which his difficulties disappear and his obstacles vanish. Simply a minute of patience will allow 10 years of peace, and will pave the way towards enlightenment.” Zenyatta

[@Not_Ciel]

Become a DVa main then. We get our info first 😎

[@Nightgod284]

The hardest part of moira is finding out you can heal your team and your not a dps

[@ADUSN]

This meme is so old. You literally can't heal without doing damage.

[@Nightgod284]

@@ADUSN it’s a joke? Chill out homie

[@ADUSN]

@@Nightgod284 It's just not that funny lol

[@jkvltra804]

@@ADUSN But you can damage without healing which is what bad moiras do.

[@kukulkantequila2418]

@@ADUSN I laughed, so yes it's funny

[@ieatsand9259]

As one of the ten Echo mains I feel validated

[@d00mnoodle62]

She's so much fun to play, it's weird how nobody else plays her

[@aimwell7089]

Hey man, i respect that. Maybe you could share me some of your ranked codes? I would be interested to see especially if someone from GM could provide Echo games

[@truespark2982]

She’s so powerful when you know how to play her but we’re the last ones left

[@TheMioJay]

@@aimwell7089 yeah, me too dude

[@KojiNatu_]

You guys are the MVPs.

[@doremiancleff1508]

Reaper is an instant value pick. Whenever i do badly on DPS, i always switch to him and play fontline with my tank. If i can't do funky stuff, least i can do is to get some damage in.

[@Htiy]

Isnt that skill floor not ceiling

[@doremiancleff1508]

@@Htiy A KILLING floor, die die die, amirite?

[@focusings]

unfortunately that only works in gold and below

[@rivendzi]

@@vhyles Moira is easiest dps, bruh.

[@vhyles]

Reaper is the easiest dps together with Bastion. Very easy to get value out of him. He has one of the simplest game plans out there, not to mention how easy it is to land shots with him due to the large spread of his shotguns.

[@iSuckAtGamesGG]

bro im trying to master kiriko rn but she's the hardest dps in the game. good thing my teammates have not been noticing me, they've been complaining about our support alot instead

[@monsterbob5691]

This actually made me laugh thank you

[@otify480]

Good one, waiting for someone to not understand this joke and get r/woodhed

[@philippebaillargeon5204]

@@otify480 Hi, just wanted to notify you that you can r/woooooosh the guy below your comment.

[@regretfultax7428]

@Sharkie r/whoooosh

[@user-qd5sz1bo1p]

@@philippebaillargeon5204 this dudes using Reddit

[@bld9826]

Genuinely feel like Brig's harder than you give her credit for in both videos. She's lost her biggest anti-flank utility and you see even in OWL she was often the first target for an ulting or flanking Genji. She's got to constantly land projectile whip shots to keep her aura up, and good shields management is really just dva DM management but on Very Hard mode because you have infinitely less resource and less than 1/3 of the hp. I feel like ranking her low skill kind of misses the point in the same way ranking Winston low-skill would be.

[@CoolLegBoy]

No Brig is pretty easy, she is even better than in OW1, I think having her be medium tier is completely fine

[@Josh-ru6kc]

Shes not that hard rn shes just really bad.

[@lostkin4910]

Literally stand in backline and hit flails every 4 seconds. Shit plays itself. Her anti flank utility is that everything she does is easy to hit.

[@adroppedcroissant]

@@CoolLegBoy ​ she is absolutely not better than she was in ow1

[@redr6107]

guys, this video will teach u the ways of brig: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIDIqJ57mZWajMk (ultimate brig guide from the #1 Brig in NA)

[@timbombadil4046]

Positioning on Ana, four different types of shot, high opportunity cost abilities like nade and dart. Very difficult is more than fair since she individually demands a lot, and although lacks movement abilites to master, it really positioning that much more difficult. If any support was Ultimate Mastery it would be Ana.

[@555fire...]

lucio's skill ceiling is probably 10x harder than ana's, as ana's healing shot has a massive AOE and she doesn't have to hit headshots

[@timbombadil4046]

@@555fire... Doesnt have to hit headshots, but does have to thread the needle on some shots to hit the target she wants, not whatever is right in front of her. Plus, her only escape tool is on a long cooldown, while Lucio has three that work in harmony with each other. And let's he honest, unless up close Lucio is more shooting into spaces than targets directly since the projectile speed doesn't let you aim but at best anticipate where you think they might be.

[@sebaschan-uwu]

@@555fire... lucio is very hard to play but I feel like ana is harder

[@TheTrueHardcorefr3k]

@Blazing Magic The thing about Lucio is the there is not much of a split in attention compared to Ana or Kiriko. Miss timing an Amp or boop won't end a fight as much as a nade or suzu will. Really the only major thing Lucio needs to decide to differentiate themselves is when to take an engagement which other heroes also need to decide. Everything else you can do relatively safely without risking yourself.

[@airchampion4658]

@@sebaschan-uwu ana is so easy is hilarious I lock in ana in diamond lobbies with 2 hours on the hero and top heals with 20 enemies slept. Zen and Lucio easily have higher skill ceilings and are harder to play. If you think otherwise you’re

[@Boo_hoo7]

As a sigma main i respect the challenging tier people don't understand how much a good sigma can change the game

[@maxgoldstein7202]

Fr, a good sigma will absolutely clap a team that underestimates them

[@Boo_hoo7]

@@maxgoldstein7202 bro I've went against some sigmas who have made the game unplayable literally 100% accuracy on rocks and they know how to manage everything it's honestly sometimes worse than going against a good genji

[@maxgoldstein7202]

@@Boo_hoo7 yeah even if I prefire an ability around a corner I know I'm about to get clobbered with a 1.5 ton boulder the second my character model enters line of sight lmao

[@Boo_hoo7]

@@maxgoldstein7202 a good sigma literally counters anyone like bro im talking hitting pharahs with rocks from a mile away..if you looking foward to someone who does that search up SPACE he is a OWL player and he goes hard with sigma

[@sickandafraid]

@@Boo_hoo7 even though i probably am not doing well with Sigma, he genuinely feels so good to play. Honestly of the most creative tanks in the game

[@maragazh9993]

for kiriko, i think she has a "challenging" skill ceiling and a "very hard" skill floor. its not like other heroes, where the skill floor involves hitting your shots and the skill ceiling involves hitting your headshots. For Kiriko, she has to learn how to hit her headshots in order to deal competent amounts of damage. A suzu wasted could lose teamfights, too. One Amendment: Kiriko's skill floor can be knocked down a tier, atleast a tier. Reason being that you can just aim at head level at a choke and get cross map kills on random hanzos and anas, and if not kills, high, scary damage. Thars value right there, easy value, especially at lower levels.

[@Ghost1170]

Tbf, most characters can be summed up to; if they miss, they lose. Take for instance doomfist. He misses anything, he loses LOL

[@maragazh9993]

@@Ghost1170 Its case by case. Someone like soldier, yeah missing is bad, but that is the case for every shooter character ever. On the other hand, there is doomfist, where if you miss, you are out of position, which is something very very few other characters can say

[@RandomPerson-gf6gd]

I don’t completely understand, she isn’t like other heroes where it is body shots v. head shots, but instead she has to learn how to hit headshots??? I don’t argue that she isn’t hard to play tho

[@Torbintime]

She's probably one of the easiest heros in the game, low cooldown escape on a click even through walls, wall climbing and her E. You have to be actively throwing to be out of position with her, literally just don't teleport to teammates who dive and you're never going to die. Compare that to zen/ana who have to think about positioning.

[@pablonieto5058]

You can just heal and do good though, and ult is not hard to use even if its very important its just pressing a button while looking a certain direction

[@bradfordellington6866]

It would be interesting to see a follow-up video where you show which heroes have more narrow or broad floors and ceilings. Sort of a conclusion video so people can choose what heroes to invest time into.

[@itsyourguyskye]

definitely wanna see a skill floor list too haha

[@jaygee94]

@@itsyourguyskye kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZLPkKScp8qUmc0 He mentioned this at the start if you havent found already. im going to watch now

[@maxgoldstein7202]

Ever since I saw how different wrecking ball is from almost every other character in the game, I HAD to pick him up when I started playing ow2. I love the fact that his skill factor comes in not by aim or cooldown management (though those do obviously help) , but knowing the map layout, the trajectory of your grapple, the approximate distance from enemies that will grant you extra shields etc. He just feels so damn unique and I love it. The map thing can kinda be a double edged sword though, as I personally am a LOT worse on certain maps when playing as him.

[@chrisgarrett6305]

Same, something about midtown is just impossible to play ball on for me, at least until you reach the last checkpoint.

[@mynameisgus7515]

ball sucks

[@chrisgarrett6305]

@@mynameisgus7515 he’s decent when you learn to play him properly, otherwise he’s just meh. You can’t deny he’s just the most fun to play though.

[@aBsONE]

Comment section: My main is much harder than what you said! Im gonna type a whole essay to prove it!!!

[@Saben.C-Spoon]

+ character I don't like is EZ!!!!! I will write document as to why

[@katara9]

Although I'm guilty of this.. so true 😂

[@Lacke1]

The video is literally "streamers play these so they are more skilled"

[@dogsarec001]

@@Lacke1 maybe it's because harder heroes are more entertaining to watch and play

[@bananaman5590]

honestly, i think widow is much further down on the skill ceiling. there isn't much you really have to worry about besides aim. what cooldown management is there really, she requires very little decision making, and her mechanics are extremely straight forward.

[@boomynote]

Aim on window is more important than any other character, but she also gets the most value out of better aim. Thus she has more potential in terms of player improvement. Learning perfect venom mine positioning to minimize visibility while ensuring it’ll be triggered takes map knowledge, along with learning different angles to shoot the enemy as you do need to switch between angles while managing grapple cooldown. Widow can also do some “trickshots” grappling into the air and landing fully charged mid air headshots from insane angles that you only get one chance to land the shot. These types of shots alone raise her skill ceiling to crazy highs. Remember, skill ceiling is all about the “potential value”, 99% of players won’t hit widows true skill ceiling because it’s so high but the skill ceiling being so high that most can’t reach it doesn’t mean that the high skill ceiling isn’t there. Look up some of the shots window is capable of, it’s like saying Lucio is low skill ceiling because “all he does is stay on the ground healing his teammates”, good players can do a lot more with these characters

[@toast9219]

Ok but aiming is almost an infinite skill ceiling, you can always get better at aiming until you literally have aimbot at which point you would be winning every game

[@boomynote]

@@toast9219 Widow benefits the most from said infinite skill ceiling. This doesn't mean her skill ceiling is lower though, it just means she has an even larger "potential value" than the other characters. But if every character had a hypothetical perfect aimbot, widow still has a ton of grapple spots to learn to land shots at crazy angles and also needs to manage venom mine placement. She has to have effective grapple usage and venom mine placement and needs to be able to constantly rotate to different angles while also watching out for getting dove. You need to use grapple to move around the map but you also can't waste the grapple. And remember we're talking about skill ceiling here, so one of my main points is grapple shots. Grappling up into the air, charging up and landing a headshot while either moving up due to momentum or down due to gravity. That specific mechanic alone makes her skill ceiling one of the highest in the game, and some might see me say that and go "Oh well that's really rare most widowmakers can't/don't do that consistently" but that's exactly my point. Max skill ceiling widow can casually grapple into the air, land a cross map charged headshot (not easy), and repeat. But because people don't see widow doing that a lot I brought up my other points, but I want to stress that widowmaker has the most difficult to pull off, yet most rewarding, potential techs compared to other characters

[@toast9219]

@@boomynote ya ik i was disagreeing with the original comment

[@tragedy8365]

@BoomyNote completely disagree. Grapple Shots are near useless and put your only escape tool on a 12 seconds cd. If you have good positioning you wont need to grapple for los in the first place. Once youve played the game enough youll notice that you can shut down flanks with venom mine quite easily without much thnkingt to it (except maybe push maps, there arent that many routes for flanking in the first places which makes venom mine placement even easier). Hardest part of her kit is aiming and every dps in masters and above will have aim good enough to get value out of widow. Skill ceiling should lower down for widow. Positioning is obviusly most important (takes away pressure, gives los, thus making aiming easier in return) with widow and the only thing i can see people struggling with beside aim. hate pasu lol

[@miltaire3235]

I don't think Sojourn is more difficult compared to say someone like Ashe. Railgun hitbox is a lot bigger and thus more lenient to get headshots on, has a zoning skill that doesn't require timing a follow up shot or projectile arc, and her movement ability is arguably easier to utilize well and get value from while having negligible cooldown. In addition, Sojourn's carry potential is a lot higher than Ashe, without necessarily taking as much effort for the same results because of her ludicrous 1 tap rail shots snowballing the whole enemy team during her ult with minimal counters considering she can do it from a safe range and with good aim will just delete anyone simply entering her line of sight.

[@duraemakye1384]

the stats speak for themselves, diamond and below Soljorn is underpreforming worse then any other non niche dps including ashe

[@miltaire3235]

@@duraemakye1384 They don't tell the full story though. Sojourn is a new character that people have had less time to practice with since OW1 and has a condition where she needs to earn her rail shot via dealing damage. And naturally at the lowest skill floor she would be harder if we're assuming the players have abysmal aim because they would probably miss the majority of shots they worked for and will play the whole match as Walmart Soldier 76 If we're talking the overall impact achieved at the highest level though relative to the mechanical skill and effort required to accomplish something, you would probably have a much easier time carrying with Sojourn compared to everyone else for the same result.

[@MrBrock314]

Ashe's movement is less skillful than Sojourn's as it's a specific distance every time and it only ever pushes you backwards. It's less skillful than Hanzo's double-jump (omni-directional). Sojourn can slide a variety of distances in multiple directions and her speed changes while she slides meaning that aiming while sliding is also harder.

[@justinthenoob]

I definitely think reinhardt should be higher. Knowing when to shield, blocking shatters, and when to swing takes fast decision making.

[@forcebrand4678]

Bruh it's pretty straightforward most of the time. Tank shit with your health, swinging and once it gets to below half shield up. If he was any easier he'd be playable by a blind, spastic grandma.

[@jamarcusbonquaviustoiletro8520]

@@forcebrand4678 quickplay andy spotted

[@kirdna4079]

I agree he should be higher but not by much, as a rein main I understand how great value he is by making sure when to pin and cancel pin, using ult to even get one person is valuable, keeping shield up without breaking, and giving sightlines to dps and protecting healers but ultimately by himself isn't that great without great supports, especially rein duels but not harder than sigma or Winston since MAJORITY of people could pick up rein more than other harder tanks

[@Deboned_butter]

@@forcebrand4678 “Once it gets to below half shield up.” Part of me died reading that.

[@Deboned_butter]

I understand where people say Reinhardt has a low skill ceiling, though. Unless you EXCLUSIVELY main Rein, you effectively never tap into probably the most cursed and counter-intuitive technique. That technique that you don’t even consider until hitting high masters. Literally never using shield. Whenever you figure out just how barely you need shield, and how to not immediately die doing it, his skill ceiling skyrockets to borderline challenging with Dva. Otherwise, I see where most player’s takes on this is coming from - it’s so counterintuitive, and you need to go to the dark side, the way of the sith, the forbidden techniques to learn this. The skill ceiling seems low, but try to play a game without letting your shield go under 800.

[@cuzza4321]

My issue with the list is it seems to be mixing decision making and mechanical skill. Win high decision making skill cap and low mechanical so averages out middle. Zarya tracking skill + hitting big bombs + awareness to bubble who and when. She's very hard in my eyes and good ones make her seem soooo strong.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Yea a clear definition would be good. Normally, the term "skill ceiling" refers to how far you can push your skills with a hero and keep seeing a comparable rise in value the more effort you put into improving your skill. A hero like Genji can go to near infinity before his reward curve tapers off and hero proficiency caps out. Echo as comparison is quite forgiving and her reward curve tapers off at an earlier stage. Having Zarya below Winston makes little sense to me, as yea sure you can do a bit of movement on Winston and his juggle IS very difficult to master - but it being difficult to master doesn't mean you get a lot of value from mastering it, compared to sinking similar effort into other heroes. The overall reward you get for the effort you put in, you can just go a lot further with Zarya and keep seeing your value rise the more skilled you get with her kit. It's much harder for a really skilled Winston to carry a lobby, than it is for a really skilled Zarya player to carry a lobby (specific hero-centric metas excluded ofc).

[@MrBrock314]

@@Real_MisterSir I disagree about the Zarya thing. A good Winston will never be in danger while Zarya doesn't have the movement to hide if she gets in danger. Her bubbles aren't so powerful that she can stand in the middle of an open field against good snipers. Winston is far more likely to pull that scenario off as he can move from "I'm in danger" to "I'm perfectly safe" in one jump.

[@dustinchang5089]

IMHO for Sigma max primary fire distance, I use the circle reticle, then go to the practice range and choose an average sized character like soldier, go to the max distance and then adjust the reticle size to fit the whole character in there.

[@dinterdos]

Thanks, I better try this

[@ADUSN]

Gigabrain type beat

[@LadySniperSwaggYT]

🤔 might need to do this

[@dustinchang5089]

@@LadySniperSwaggYT works well for nailing pharahs too IMHO

[@lyzder7298]

Most people in these comments can't tell the difference between skill floor and ceiling Skill floor: how skilled you have to be to get value Skill ceiling: how much value you can get if you're really good For example: Reaper has a low skill floor, which means you don't have to be very good to get stuff done. Tracer has a really high skill ceiling as the better your tracking, strafing and blinks are she becomes such a bigger menace

[@lyzder7298]

@@DeeCeeTeeBee the lower the floor the less skill required. Just searched it up

[@reesalas]

i agree that doom is definitley the hardest character but one of the most fun/rewarding, being good at doom is like playing a whole different game, literally hop into a doom sumo custom game and learn some of the movement tech like flying in the air and animation canceling, you can go deep into the enemy line kill a support then slam cancel into a punch to cross the entire map back to your team, if doom gets any buffs i feel like he will be insane!

[@batista1229]

If you could put Reaper in a tier below easy I would accept that. The character is literally braindead to play

[@blackpope8834]

Junkrat is even easier

[@mattyice139]

Yo facts. Why tf he have like 100%life steal? So stupid

[@betmynamespookedyou4665]

@@blackpope8834 I feel like you could genuinely argue Reaper is easier to play than Junkrat…maybe

[@confued114]

@@betmynamespookedyou4665 junk requires a trigonometry degree to be truly effective

[@uppdoginthaflesh]

Cope

[@ojdidit84]

As an Ana/Lucio (1.5K hours don't judge me)/Bap/Recently Kiriko Main, this list seems pretty accurate for me. Learning Ana in OW1 was so much fun for me. Lucio was def the hardest for me though for re-learning how to aim while wall riding on top of improving your wall riding, spots where you can surf in place, rollouts, beyblade evasion tactics (and while wall riding). A lot to pack in compared to any other support considering you started as just a frog sitting in heal song, glued to the ground at all times lol

[@Gamagook]

I feel bap needs to be a little bit higher tho but I do agree with Lucio

[@theslenderfox]

You did Reinhardt dirty, the skill cap for shield management is way higher than you're giving credit for. Being able to react to key abilities and always have shield health when you need is makes Rein deserving of at the very least Hard

[@pumpking1278]

It feels a bit wrong to me to put Junkerqueen and Hog at the same level "because they just have to hit the hook/knife", when the hook is way easier to hit and way more rewarding than the knife

[@MrBrock314]

The knife isn't that hard to hit - it flies in a straight line.

[@pumpking1278]

@@MrBrock314 its been a year, Junkerqueen is awesome now 👌

[@johnplayer3637]

Rein is definitely hard tier, there's a lot more to consider than what Karq mentioned.

[@josephsatya7448]

yeah exactly

[@cloudedbrain6132]

I think compared to ow1 he has a much being skill floor but in terms of skill ceiling I feel like there’s not a crazy amount you have to learn

[@johnplayer3637]

@@cloudedbrain6132 The fundamentals of reinhardt are easy. The execution of them at a higher level are definitely hard and require decisive and disciplined play.

[@Youngmoneygettinmoney]

@@johnplayer3637 thats what he was saying tho, excluding decision making.

[@cloudedbrain6132]

@@johnplayer3637 idk ever the fundermntals of rein aren't easy in my opinion in OW2. In OW 1 you can just hold up your shield and do nothing but now if you only hold up your sheild you are trolling and contributing very little for your team. If anything you should be constantly swinging and the problem is knowing when to block to not just die and throw.

[@just-nice-ice1416]

Also with lucio you you gotta change between fighting and supporting, like if your always fighting the enemy team you might not get the chance to help your team or tank, in my opinion it's important to switch between healing and speed since its kinda needed to know when you use each one at the right time

[@stiva5018]

downloaded this game like 2 weeks ago for the first time, somehow managed to get into the hardest heroes

[@StoneX24]

Harder heroes are way more fun to play imo. The easiest heroes often feel brainless.

[@idt2125]

@@StoneX24 you can really tell. Wrecking ball is extremely fun

[@masift1494]

@@StoneX24 they get boring quickly yeah. Reaper is the perfect example of a hero that gets stale quickly

[@CorynFields]

Don't worry, when starting in Overwatch 1, my first hero was Wrecking Ball Still going, 100+ hours almost ball OTP by now iushdfailjan.ksdmf

[@taupi5246]

do keep in mind a lot of the heroes in the high tiers are easy to pick up, this video is about mastering them to the highest level; for example Pharah, Baptiste or Winston are fairly easy to learn how to get decent with. don't be discouraged by this tierlist!

[@anthoniemccay]

Personally I think roadhog is one of the easiest. His skill ceiling is really just player gamesense and enough mechanical skill and aim to hit hooks which all heroes get value from

[@bruhmoment702]

Roadhog mains need a good team comp to work. Something like a kiriko will cleanse any discords or antis and a close range dps like symmetra, mei( not in the game anymore 😢), and a reaper is op when the hog hits their hooks and creates safe space for his team.

[@miraculouslynada]

lucio not being ultimate mastery hurt me personally

[@Z3ZP]

This list started off with me agreeing with basicly all of the tanks, but damn it went off the rails for me when you went into dps, while I agree with some, but I can’t help but to think that we have a very different view on how to evaluate skill ceiling.

[@MakinaMakinaMakina]

Out of curiosity, which ones did you disagree with?

[@papascorch5215]

Just give wrecking ball his own tier above ultimate mastery. He honestly deserves it

[@magicrlx]

as a Rein main I feel that I was assaulted and robbed and get shit on too, mb I'm biased af but I feel he's got to be in Challenging tier, you can use this swing tech (which is quite ez), you can charge into bhop into big slam, you can block shatters or Dva's bombs with 1 frame shield pop, you can get cool environmental kills after cancelled charges, and in Rein mirrors it's all about mindgames with counter charges, wall peeks and slam blocks. Also you can peel for your team getting nano'ed genji or ram out and shit. It's quite high ceiling if you ask me. Perform with extra style points is already a high ceiling. Happy Christmas and best wishes fellow OW enjoyers, peace.

[@MrBrock314]

Swinging doesn't require mechanical skill. Firestrike is a straightforward projectile and is fairly wide. Shatter is very easy to use and there's not a lot of room to grow from mastering these three. Yes, the charge has some mastery to it but the others can be mastered quickly so you're not going to get a lot more value by practicing firestrike. That's what skill ceiling is. If you put more effort into it, will it give you larger rewards by a significant measure? Swinging - no. Firestrike - no. It's primarily mastering charge and shield usage. A Bronze Rein can easily shatter a whole team as much as a t500 Rein can. A Bronze Rein can just as easily swing and kill a Hanzo as a t500 Rein. That's not the difference between the ranks and Reins don't need to practice those skills generally.

[@Bighomer5]

I always like like Rein is a lot more difficult than he looks because of the big responsibility he has. If you can't shield key ultimates like earthshatter consistently then you're selling your team out. In ow1 moreso than in ow2

[@Real_MisterSir]

I think maybe a good starting point is to establish what we mean by "skill ceiling". In the coaching sense, skill ceiling refers to how far skill mastery lets you push the value potential of a hero - so a hero with high skill ceiling means you can keep pouring hours into mastering their kit, and see a relative rise in value you get in return. The curve of value vs skill mastery is equal until the skill ceiling is reached, at which point the curve of value drops off even if you keep grinding your skill mastery. What skill ceiling doesn't refer to (from a coaching pov), is the difficulty of a hero's core value proposition, like with Junkrat you can get decent value at a high level just from knowing how to spam your grenades, knowing good angles, and having a good game sense and decisionmaking. But his skill ceiling itself is still immensely high when you get into the mobility aspect of his conc mines, how you can open up fights, how you can traverse maps, landing air shots and mine juggling enemy players etc - so his skill ceiling is actually much higher than his core difficulty would suggest. You can get really deep into Junkrat mechanics and see a correlating value reward the more time you spend grinding his kit. This is also why I would any day rank Genji higher than Echo for example, as your timings and accuracy with genji exponentially unlocks how effective you can be with him - and here Echo is much more forgiving. Sure she is demanding with all the tech you have to learn, but once you learn it to a high level the reward is diminishing - but with a hero like Genji your reward never diminishes, you can always push further with your skill and unlock new tiers of value potential no matter how good you already are. That's also why you see many of the absolute best Genji players in the world mastering different aspects of the hero - like Necros has incredible proficiency in his speed, his fight overview, his dash accuracy and timing etc - while other top tier Genji players have perfected their dash combos to delete squishies in the blink of an eye any time they get the opportunity. What I mean here is, that even at the absolute highest skill levels, players can still be diverse enough in the abilities they master, that it shows how much room there is for them to master other aspects too and climb even higher, and the only reason nobody has mastered everything to perfection is simply because the skill ceiling is so damn high that you realistically can't achieve full mastery even if you spent decades grinding his kit. But you would see that the more you master, the exponentially higher value you will receive in return, there isn't a clear drop-off point, like there is with more forgiving heroes like Echo (in terms of landing your abilities, understanding your engages, your range, your mid-fight options and fight swing potential, etc). Once you reach a high enough point with Echo mastery, the curve flattens out and the core thing you're left with is your decision making and game sense, not so much your specific skill with the hero itself.

[@MrBrock314]

Everything you said about Genji applies to Echo since she can copy him as KarQ pointed out.

[@rage_tv4493]

This is a great tier list rather than the generic tier list for what’s the “best” characters

[@fowaking4476]

I think the amount of sheer gamesense you need on Rein and how you need to play around your teammates makes him way harder than medium tier. I’m pretty sure this was a pure mechanics tier list though so maybe I’m wrong.

[@blackbolt5243]

You need game sense on every hero, even more so on tanks like Winston and Sigma

[@maxchess6734]

@@blackbolt5243 i main rein, winstown and sigma (and hog), but playing as rein is way harder than what you think : in comparison to sigma, rein has to block stuns or effect projectiles (like by ana,) in the melee you need to play around corners to not get obliterated, know when you can charge a dps/healer and also be aware of if the healers can heal you, while sigma only has to manage stuns (like blocking a hook) and keeping the right distance for his primary fire i cant say anything for winstown, since so many players are missplaced when i play, which makes it easy to get value out of him

[@lyg483]

Everyone needs gamesense. Tanks and Barrier Tanks need it the most, or at least have a different type of gamesense since you need to think about the barrier and your team. But this is no different from any other character that needs the same gamesense but for their own gameplay. Like a Dps to know when to flank or get in, or a healer qhen It’s time to dps and go aggro, or maybe hide until you can bait the enemy out for you. As Karq said, It’s something that everybody needs to have. But Barrier Tanks insist on it the most because It’s basically their most important thing they have to learn.

[@richardespinoza9989]

Widow higher than hanzo? Thats a hard disagree for me there. Widow is hitscan and in certain maps especially in the new OW2 maps that are so open, its really easy to get value with widow compared to hanzo. Once that sombra nerf and genji nerf comes through, widow is about to be even easier to play. The only thing that makes hanzo easy to get value with is storm arrow, I totally agree with that. Landing his shots back to back though even in GM is way harder the second a Lucio is on the enemy team.

[@_Baleful]

You might be right but I can see a case for widow over hanzo. Hanzo is capable of putting out spam damage and potentially one shots from complete safety due to the fact that he can fire before the enemy is even out of cover and then retreat to his own cover while the projectile travels. Overall I would say it’s harder to be a godlike widow than a godlike hanzo - however a PERFECT hanzo is probably harder than a perfect widow, if that makes sense.

[@feoryas580]

I agree because less shields means more sightlines and value for widow

[@Nortio]

Widow is harder bc both heroes rely on their mechanics but hanzo has his wall climb and leap for escape which are on super short cool downs, and storm arrow and his ult is better. Widow isn't just mechanical aim because even the best widows will get rolled if her positioning is bad. Knowing when and where to stand as Widow, secret hiding spots and weird angles to get picks from all go into making Widow require more skill because she's alot easier to counter than hanzo.

[@richardespinoza9989]

@@Nortio a consistent widow doesn’t need all this, as long as you land headshots, positioning means nothing. You know how often a dive player can close the gap and still get instantly killed by widow? Hanzo is projectile based which means 50% if those shots wont even hit you. As long as widow has the reticle on you, thats enough to kill you or deal a ton of damage. Hitscans will always be much easier and way more powerful. Even if hanzo did 1000 damage to the head, widow is still way better because of her power to point and click. Consistency is the play, there is a reason why even the overwatch league players switch to ashe or widow whenever they feel sojourn is not putting in work for them. Even the best players in the world barely mess around with projectiles. Sure on paper hanzo sounds way better but in actual game, its a whole different story.

[@jkvltra804]

Bad Hanzos can still get value from shield busting or relying on their e. I should know because I suck with him but into the right comps I still do well. Also look up how massive his arrow hitbox is, it's been tested. Widows shot is super small.

[@TikkaQrow]

I'm surprised Symmetra isn't higher on the list. Watching top 500 Symm mains and OTPs is crazy and shows how high her skill ceiling really is. I'd have stuck her between Sombra and Doom.

[@jameslowell9656]

Ask yourself how an omnipotent AI would play a character and how hard it would be to get to that level to judge skill ceiling. Junkrat and possibly Hanzo would probably be the hardest due to insane prediction and lob accuracy that would theoretically be possible by lobbing projectiles into the air. They would be able to rain it down on you wherever you are and you'd probably rarely see them. Junk's skill ceiling is actually unfathomably high as it would be precise lob accuracy for almost the entire map from anywhere on the map which is not really humanly possible. An adavanced AI controlled junkrat would probably play the game very differently from the best human junkrat player whereas for the vast majority of characters the play style would be extremely similar. Junkrat has a low skill floor to get value on but his skill ceiling is actually insane and it makes sense for someone that can basically ignore walls and doesn't have to play in line of sight to be effective. And I haven't even started on the crazy movement tech an advanced AI would be able pull off with his mines

[@drdickenbalz]

No you baboon, people can see junk's projectiles coming at them which means they can just strafe out of the way. There's no amount of prediction that allows him to hit them consistently no matter what you do, because at the end of the day it's not really up to you. The difference between spamming in a general direction and spamming in the best possible direction is low which makes him not as high skill ceiling as the rest.

[@jameslowell9656]

@@drdickenbalz oh you can hit precise chokes and high ground spots with lobbed shots from everywhere on the map?

[@jameslowell9656]

@@drdickenbalz you gonna be looking up in the sky ? 24/7? I'm not talking about spamming a choke with relatively low launch angle like most spamrats. I'm talking about hitting those noob tube spawn shots you see in call of duty but being able to do it non stop from everywhere with no set up required. Literally no one on the planet is remotely good enough to even do this with half decent accuracy hence why his skill ceiling is probably the highest.

[@RacingSnails64]

I'd love to see that. That'd be crazy to see. Junkrat has an easy skill floor but thinking about where to bounce and place his grenades is actually good fun. Not to mention direct hits up close. His mines have never been hard to use though lol

[@jameslowell9656]

@@RacingSnails64 yes they are at an optimal level lol. You can double mine backwards through tight turns and hallways consistently without ever getting hungup? We aren't talking about being able to use his mines to move lol we are talking about moving with the most precise direction and maximised speed possible which is no where remotely close to easy as it literally requires perfect timing, mine placement, and spatial awareness to actually optimize.... At an optimal level you would need to be doing double mine tech sequences while firing off accurate nades in between mines actually. There are literally movement sequences he could do that would require multiple pixel perfect mines and frame perfect inputs along with having the spatial awareness and memory to navigate maps backwards to pull off and in fact a large amount of possible movement techs are effectively not even humanly possible. But yeah definitely easy to optimize bud.

[@bogdanlupas3929]

As a doom main i can say that you are right, a lot of techniches but the fact that he has a somewhat useless ult (i only use it to get away) makes him hard to play and to get value from. If you can kick players off the map doom works just fine. I think that the empowered punch should deal at least 75% of the ov1 punch.

[@masift1494]

I cannot stand the deluded players who think Doom is easy or even remotely "OP". Doom has some many intricacies to his kit, there's just no way I can be bothered to learn that hero. He's just too difficult, I dont have the patience. I played a little bit of doom in ow1 when he was a DPS but I dont even dare to touch the hero now. Not at least until he becomes a viable pick

[@deKahedron]

The weird thing I've started to find with the new empowered punch is that it does still get kills... just not with the punch itself. If you watch any of ZBra's gameplay, try and imitate what he does by getting wall punches on priority targets and immediately capitalising on the stun with 2-4 free primary shots.

[@metalbeaver6294]

@@masift1494 No one thinks hes op, in fact if you pick doomfirst in my comp, you're trolling

[@heythisisntxboxrl5174]

@@metalbeaver6294 this. i know some people who have gotten reported enough times just for playing doomfist that they got banned

[@katara9]

I agreed with everything, but when it comes to mercy, I think her mastery is in the ability to stay alive and make decisions. A really good mercy can keep battles going and win matches, reviving the right players to hold points, deciding what risks to force her team to take. A good mercy will know how to use the map and sweet spots to their advantage, and because of the guardian angel change, there are new techs to learn everyday. A classic superjump is harder to get, for example a sj revive, while staying in the air and keeping flanking teammates alive requires effective juggling. She has to be aware of everyone's skill levels as well, to decide when to commit to or ult for teammates. I feel like in terms of when to fall back, escaping the enemy around aerial and grounded obstacles, tracking and predicting team movement, the skill ceiling can be endless despite being a beam character, and the value partially depends on how far she can push her teammates. Because of how valuable a mercy can be to a team, she can push herself forward to force her teammates into battle. It's risky, but it does illustrate how much power a Mercy has strategically.

[@haburoji3421]

Agreed! It honestly feels like youre playing a different game entirely when you use her movement to the fullest. It's actually insane how much survivability and impact she has in the right hands when youre not just playing healbot. Also, never underestimate a mercy that can aim. She excels at securing kills on low health targets that may be out of reach from the rest of the team.

[@katara9]

@@haburoji3421 Yes! Especially if they're particularly good at using the pistol and navigating flanks, whew.

[@YoSoFunnyx3]

@@katara9 yaaa a lot of mercy players don’t take advantage of being able to also flank players and do quick assassinations. It’s super important to take advantage of it. Like you still can end a game at 0 elims on Mercy, but if opportunities pop up like take them and know when to go back to your team and not tunnel vision

[@liza_6271]

But like u need to make decisions on every support, keep track where healing is needed. Like mercy isnt the only character where u need to do crucial decisions.

[@ludwigtheascendant]

As a newcomer to OW in general, I have found great success with Ashe at long range, some tracer games (but even I get confused at times), Reaper, Kiriko (if I hit my slow ass kunais) and Brigitte Pd. Brigitte is like my fav right now, 15+ kills a game, 25+ assists etc, she’s my main bc of how versatile she is

[@Immortal_Mentor]

I would argue Mei is challenging because of how easy it is for her to sabotage her team

[@MrBrock314]

That's 90% of the reason people play Mei.

[@TheWandererBard]

I feel like gengi, kiriko and Lucio could also be in the highest tier imo

[@boldisordorin9010]

Doomfist's skill ceiling is in the negative now because many old techs actually make you worse if you use them after adjustments they made

[@masift1494]

I see you also watch GetQuakedOn

[@pizzapastaputitinabox322]

Bro the current skill ceiling of doom fist isn’t effected by past techs. The current upper limit of doom fist skill to output isn’t determined by how good the player is. I used to be a good genji player, they changed his kit slightly. Does that mean genji now has a lower skill ceiling? No because my personal skill at a hero doesn’t determine the overall skill ceiling of that hero

[@milkpuddinggameplay7794]

@@pizzapastaputitinabox322 you can’t even be comparing the slight tweak in genjis kit to a complete rework

[@pizzapastaputitinabox322]

@@milkpuddinggameplay7794 that’s not the point. The point is the theoretical skill ceiling of a hero isn’t determined by what the players do. Player’s can become more skillful at a hero but the players skill doesn’t effect how good a character can be when mastered. For example old bastion is gone which means all of his old techs are gone but that doesn’t effect his skill ceiling. What determines his skill ceiling is his new abilities and how they far mastery over them can be advanced until they stop returning results

[@masift1494]

@@milkpuddinggameplay7794 I wouldn't call it a "slight tweak" lol it's a hard nerf. Overall dmg output is reduced by like 25%

[@TooEpik]

My opinion is the top 3 most difficult heroes in the game are Genji, wrecking ball, and Tracer. The reason I think Genji is up there is because all other dive heroes have abilities that let them escape regardless of if they get value or not. Tracer can blink or recall out, doomfist can sustain until his next cycle of cooldowns, same with winston, sombra can tp out, etc, but if Genji uses his dash to engage, his only escape is a dash reset and so there is absolutely no room for error. You either dash in, don't get the kill, die, or you dash in, get the kill, dash out or re-engage. Another thing that makes Genji difficult is because blade is one of the most difficult ultimates to master. Genji is a low damage hero with long cooldowns that have medium impact, and no sustain even though his comfort range is point blank, this makes for a character that has close to no room for error. Genji doesn't take quite the mechanical skill tracer does, he doesn't take the gamesense sombra does, and he doesn't require the same level of ability management as doomfist, but he has very high difficulty in all of those categories. But other than that, I think I agree with this list for the most part.

[@TooEpik]

@@bushman6964 those aren’t tools of sustain or escape. They’re meant to be tools to punish and to traverse off-angles

[@MrBrock314]

Wait? Did you forget that Genji has Deflect? Meaning that even if he fails to kill on dash, he's still deadly with both shurikens and deflecting damage. Unless you dove Sym, you'd still have an amazing chance of getting back out. If you're counting on dash reset to save you from diving into dangerous situations, you're not doing it right. :) Yes, dash reset would be preferable but most of the time your dash reset should be bonus if you're picking the right targets. Counting on dash resets would be something only t500 players could do consistently. Otherwise, every time you failed a dash reset you'd die. But they don't.

[@TooEpik]

@@MrBrock314 deflect isn’t a bail-out. Yes, it can act as insurance if you’re committing to a soft engagement and intending to wall climb out after, but a soft engagement isn’t going to earn you kills, it’s most likely with the intention of baiting a resource of some kind. Also, deflect getting value is contingent on the idea that the enemy is dumb enough to shoot into it. If genji fully commits, that means he’s engaging with dash and ALSO using deflect offensively. Nobody above masters will willingly shoot into your deflect, in fact it’s more of a mind game most of the time.

[@TooEpik]

@@MrBrock314 regardless, it is still a fact that every other dive hero is more forgiving than genji in the sense that they have dedicated tools for engagement AND dedicated tools for disengagement, whereas Genji has to be a lot more careful.

[@kimpachis8841]

i believe hog is very difficult in gm games. everyone runs zarya/dva, sombra,ana/kirko. you literally have to outplay them 24/7, while being perma hacked.

[@mo_riz]

one of the rare L karq lists

[@lostkin4910]

Ain't no way sombra in the same tier as genji 💀

[@goshinki4078]

Sombra can hack yeah but the moment they hit you you're dead and if you don't have a teleport setup you instantly die

[@lostkin4910]

@@goshinki4078 it isnt exactly hard to set up a translator

[@WontSmith]

@@goshinki4078 The skill ceiling of pressing E.

[@goshinki4078]

@@lostkin4910 never said it was hard I'm just saying if you don't have one setup you're dead very sluggish and hard to get value off sombra when they also have an enemy sombra

[@goshinki4078]

@@WontSmith like the guy mentioned in the video the skill ceiling he's talking about is how much value can a person get off a character play sombra Incorrectly and you're getting like absolutely no value off her lol

[@hom3r]

I’m Moira main and I feel easy heroes can contribute more for the team consistently. Especially like Moira. Hardly die, high healing output and can help to kill squishy. The main problem is how you gonna manage your resources and when/how to use the orbs correctly.

[@tsa1tama]

this is true but at the highest level of the game, the pros are able to play high-ceiling heroes even more consistently. Thus they bring out much more potential which makes team comps and such super dynamic.

[@orr4337]

Yes, easy heros are easier to play, but this is about the maximum potential value, so a perfect Ana would do more than a perfect Moira

[@iamhush_6020]

Get a new main weirdo

[@lazerzz2514]

I agree. A Moira who knows what she is doing, when to use which orb, where to fade,... is incredibly valuable and can carry a fight way more than an "average" ana.

[@sthepcorms6747]

@@orr4337 This, that's why you see more Ana's then Moira's in higher ranks

[@LordJazz]

I think Lucio should have been Ultimate Mastery because it takes a lucio main to understand how much goes into Lucio.

[@DNYLNY]

Brig should be higher. Her playstyle is more unique than any other support and most heroes. Her kit is aggressive but brig has to play mostly defensive and wait for the right moment to go in. Imo if you had a noob play all supports they'd probably struggle with brig the most because newer players have a tendency to rush out

[@clarkkent1616]

thank you for presenting this knowledge about the difference between skill floor/ceiling. the amount of people ive seen use both terms wrong in multiple gaming communities is absurd

[@dinterdos]

But the terms are almost self explanatory lmao??

[@clarkkent1616]

@@dinterdos you would think. never underestimate the ability of ppl on the internet to not know what the fuck they’re talking about

[@crue-xx]

Hes using the term wrong sometimes tho. He doesnt understand it completely himself. He talks about which heroes are hardest/easiest to play when he should be talking about the highest potential skill level.

[@skarloeythomas5172]

@@crue-xx No, he’s referring to whose skill ceiling is hardest to utilise and achieve and who has it easier.

[@crue-xx]

@@skarloeythomas5172 Well noone has achived the skill ceiling tracer for example so how can she be on hard only? It doesnt make sense.

[@kass9795]

his mercy rating should be illegal

[@takensteak4485]

Only changes i would make are, dva up 1, genji lucio and kiriko up 1, zarya down one, zen up one, everything else is spot on. I think bcus ur in t500 u don't have to deal with the outlandish stupid shit ppl do outside of GM so some of it gets skewed downward

[@Ivealwayswondered232]

I think Zarya stays where she is because a wasted bubble can really hurt Zarya's potential damage. [Edit] and she dies fast if she wastes a bubble, with only 475 hp.

[@canadiangopnik7007]

honestly, based on most of the teammates I get in 3v3 elimination, every character should be in S, I don't know how exactly you could possibly play Roadhog incorrectly, but they manage to

[@saltysocks1225]

The only time doomfist will be at the top of a tier list

[@D00MFIST]

Late af but also the most complained about in forums

[@anthoniemccay]

Hanzo and sojourn do not belong in the same category even a bit

[@MrBrock314]

As long as you're putting Hanzo higher. ;)

[@evg2653]

Symmetra is deceivingly easy. I thought she was that's why i started picking her up, but an amazing symmetra can be so mobile and hard to kill.

[@groupie8985]

shes ass in high rank unless its one of those symmetra mains with 100000000 iq

[@evg2653]

@@groupie8985 i mean so is doomfist..

[@tobe.moemeka]

Cap her TP is on like a 12 second cooldown and she has no other mobility or survivurability

[@vallenkeinva3717]

Hi, it’s me. A Tankfist gamer. I would like to apologize to everyone for some of us unironically thinking they’re the next ZBRA for one to three good games with Doom. On a serious note: Yeah, he’s a rough ride, but man, oh man, it’s one of the most entertaining rides ever to be on. It’s like a roller coaster, not only from the really high rises and super fast dives (bad dive joke is bad) It’s a lot of energy, high speed, fun as hell, but y’know, there’s always a chance you feel like dog shit during or after the ride, or god forbid, you just straight fuckin’ fall out of the roller coaster and eat dirt. When it works? You shock both sides of the team and feel like god himself, and if you get a squad after? They never question your Doom pick again. When it doesn’t? Pray you don’t get reported for throwing. Love the list, KarQ!

[@ALEX-db6rr]

Id argue that Mercy is kinda challenging. Yeah on surface its only GA movement, but managing your beam damage boost/healing requires a lot of thinking (on top of prioritizing who to boost/heal which almost every support has to do) . Absolute best Mercy player has to track every thing that their targeted teammate is doing and even predict what they and the enemy are going to do in order to squeeze in those extra couple seconds of damage boost. With some heroes in your team its relatively easy and with others its way harder. Talking from a Genji/Cassidy perspective, theres an immense difference between decent and god Mercy player

[@brianfarley4814]

I think Mercy is simply in a bad spot right now. I find that OW2 makes it a lot harder for Mercy to fully contribute and her max value has less to do with the Mercy's skill than with the skill of the enemy flankers/dive.

[@cameronball4579]

@@brianfarley4814 no way you think mercy is bad hahaha. mfers will say shes weak till she has full team rez again

[@cursedbloodwolf999]

Lmao yeah no, its just game sense that can change how well you play mercy, there's zero skill expression you actually practice on her. You dont go into a custom aim map to learn to aim better with anything, you dont focus during a match to attempt to land better/more creative dva bombs, fatter shatters, faster blades or better positioned/timed high noons. You literally press left or right click when the time is required to do so. The character is played by women dominantly for a reason my guy....

[@parzival_35f32]

@@cursedbloodwolf999 But there is still a stark and clear difference between good and bad Mercy players. Played right Mercy can be borderline unkillable. Really gonna say someone focuses on a better use for high noon? “Focus to land fatter shatters” lmfao. You literally just press Q when there isn’t a shield in your face.

[@CoolLegBoy]

@@cursedbloodwolf999 GA movement has a lot of skill expression, what are you on about, also nice casual sexism

[@Chizypuff]

Ranking some tanks low because their difficulty is in decision making, then ranking Winston high because his decision making is difficult right after each other is weird, also brig underrated you can't play her like a braindead hero anymore

[@Chizypuff]

To copy what I said in the replies somewhere: feathering your shield to not break it so you can still use shield bash, using shield bash for movement or damage- you can actually use shield bash past your target to whipshot them into your team (or elsewhere, I've used this to knock a Cassidy behind cover right when he fired his high noon), getting full value out of heal packs in the middle of fights while brawling in the front lines, landing flail consistently and playing corners for safer inspire procs, etc

[@Chizypuff]

Keeping tanks off your backline when they win the head to head, using your health pool as a resource and inspire+whipshot+shieldbash to buy time

[@hotelmoscow8665]

This is a solid tier list but I’d put rein in hard don’t even play him much but the timing and mind games of top rein players is crazy

[@Randomness662]

I feel like you never *really* know how high Ball's skill ceiling is 'til you watch Chazm

[@aceclop]

Also I suck at landing railgun shots and I can't even tell if it's a projectile or hitscan. I also constantly forget about her grenade thing.

[@Nyxtia]

The railgun is hitscan. Her normal shots are projectile.

[@aceclop]

@@Nyxtia Good to know thanks :) Hopefully, that information will actually improve my sojurn gameplay

[@nate9078]

Mccree in challenging Rein in hard. Mccree is a very vulnerable hero like zennyatta and gets punished harder than every other dps in the game for bad positioning. His hitbox is the second largest in the game for a dps (besides bastion), he is relatively immobile, and he doesnt even have a "get-off me" move like ashe or junkrat. For Reinhardt, he has many matchup tricks as well as many fast heavily impactful decisions that he needs to make often in games with better players.

[@InkLink]

I play Doom/Winston/Genji since OW1, I love characters with lots of movement and skill expression, I can also feel my improvement over time with those

[@adalwolf8328]

I feel Venture will be either in Ultimate Mastery or Very Difficult, similar to old DPS Doomfist. Their movement and dive potential is insane, and I feel once players get more practice, Venture will be a menace in higher ranks.

[@AyoDVD]

I agree with the most things but saying echos movement/spacing is harder than lucios movement is a crime

[@MrBrock314]

But Echo also copies Lucio so she's all of her difficulty + all of Lucio's difficulty when she copies him. :)

[@ExpertCobra-tn1vt]

This feels a bit misleading. Reinhardt is NOT a medium character for skill ceiling. Sure his skill ceiling isn’t nearly as high as someone like widow, but it’s still damn high because of the rein mine games. But based on mechanics and kits this is well made

[@pacinpm2]

High skill ceiling: is it high difficulty to learn advanced techniques or is high value gained later on? Doomfist is hard to learn on high level but he is weak hero so value ceiling is relatively low. Widow has high skill ceiling AND high value ceiling.

[@jameslowell9656]

Skill ceiling = how hard is it to approach optimal level of play with that hero. This list is pretty garbage

[@drdickenbalz]

It's effective skill ceiling that he is presenting here. If a char has to do a 50 button press combo to do an attack that deals 1 damage, yeah it has a high skill ceiling but it doesn't matter so nobody gives a fuq about that. Doom can literally punch 5 people off the map if he has mastered his mobility so no, his value ceiling is actually relatively high. Any character that can perform headshots already has a high value+skill ceiling.

[@tobe.moemeka]

@@jameslowell9656 how is the list garbage?

[@jameslowell9656]

@@tobe.moemeka torb way too low with one of the harder primary fires to land and his turret becoming fairly irrelevant at higher levels of play? Sojourn and widow way too high ? Why tf is Cassidy and soldier not up there with them its the same skill set for a skill ceiling on hitscans??? Why is cassidy lower than widow when he has to land consistent headshots while fighting in closer ranges compared to widow? Hanzo the projectile sniper being lower than the hit scans?? Kirko having the hardest primary fire to land consistently for damage is not in S tier ? Winston way too high when he can't even crit and his primary fire requires 0 aim?? Orisa the ranged projectile tank being low? Junk with the most complex primary fire physics and trajectory possibilities in the entire game being low? Sombra being high with a close range hitscan gun and the easiest ult to land in the entire game? Rein being low when firestrike and pin are two of the more difficult abilities to consistently land? It was a weird hybrid floor/ceiling/viability list he made basically. When you make a list like this you need to assume a consistent high game sense across across all characters and shouldn't really be factoring that into skill ceilings unless that character is uniquely challenging to play with high game sense. A skill ceiling assumes the theoretical optimal level of play and gauges how hard it is play. Anyone with good tracking will be able to approach the zarya skill ceiling once you get a hang of bubble management, but that's more challenging than picking rein and consistently hitting squishies with pins and firestrikes? Doesn't even make sense.

[@jayebeeson9372]

I'd argue fade jumps are a bit harder than just 'pressing jump' on account of map knowledge. You have to know what bits of terrain you can roll up to hit specific vantages, and while not particularly hard there is a bit more to it than just the tech.

[@hammondarmy4774]

People always kicked me out of parties for picking Hammond :)

[@pentiummmx2294]

usually me picking hammond, mei, or zen got players pissed at me and almost got me reported

[@MrBrock314]

He's a high skill ceiling but also high skill floor. They probably didn't trust you to master the floor.

[@ssbetimmy5941]

Tracer is way higher then she should be as usual no offense, but when I fight a diamond tracer that just runs away i don't see how that's skilled.

[@MrBrock314]

If they got away, they were skilled. Otherwise, your bullets would've killed them.

[@VeraKami]

I started playing overwatch when it became free. Never played OW1 & I started leaning towards some characters already. My mains are Dva, Widowmaker, Ashe, Kiriko, Brigitte & Mercy. (I play console)

[@Jigglexphysics]

I’m in the same position and I’ve also been playing Dva and Widowmaker. I played as a few tanks yesterday because honestly I’m just trying to understand wtf is going on and they were okay. I think today I’ll try Mercy

[@VeraKami]

@@Jigglexphysics I love widowmaker the most tho, for some reason I can use her on all the maps and I usually always have 67%+ scoped accuracy at the end of every match I use her in. Using her felt natural to me. Game sense is where I lack tho lol

[@nootman4771]

Very odd he didn't mention Hog's alt fire.

[@ciopalailmagnifico7874]

I think orisa and rein are harder, i only play doomfist but i see the differenze between a good orisa and a bad one, i think that the decision making is very different for every hero, the possibilities are not the same and you should not consider only how difficult is to hit people with an ability. P.s. The primary fire of doomfiat is trash, he has a shotgun-projectile that's very hard to use, this is something that make a lot of difference between a good doomfist and a bad one.

[@DavidGonzalez-ml4nv]

Classy, descriptive, and very eloquent video; thank you for taking the time and effort.

[@karamei]

I feel like Sombra would fit in the highest tier. She is very much like Echo in regards to knowing how other heroes play and their abilities, except with Echo it's only her ult where she has to know how those heroes play. I mean, we all know Fitzy. That man knows mind games to a terrifying level.

[@timbombadil4046]

The other side of hero mastery that's comparable with Sombra outside of just her ultimate is knowing about cooldowns and interactions with focusing beam. You can get extra value, and have to work withing defensive cooldowns far more than most heroes. Generally focusing beam is only good if the target is below half, but knowing which heroes defensive cooldowns are bypassed by it lets you get some value in windows where you otherwise couldn't. The other thing is knowing what defensive cooldowns will counter stickybombs and beam. Last thing you want to do is stick a character with five bombs and dive with beam only for them to pop a defensive cd, not take the stickybomb damage and have yourself engaging with beam while they're still near full health. So Echo more than say Tracer or Genji has to work around defensive cooldowns specifically because her best kill ability is also tied to one.

[@kranqi7496]

Genji not being in ultimate feels wrong

[@fatality_ow]

Move Dva up to the highest even tho shes really strong rn, sombra down one, sig up one and maybe even genji and winston to the top cuz they have insane high skill ceining at the highest level.

[@Thiccjimbobway]

junkrat is too high, he should be in at least medium because the hardest thing for him is hitting airborne opponents but most of the time they're too far away to hit anyways because that's their strategy

[@aimwell7089]

Aah this game is so beautiful, just the system is a bit lacking.

[@morrolsenmorro803]

im sorry but this isn’t a skill ceiling list. It’s a list of how difficult they are to get good at. i felt the explenation was weird so i searched it upp and how he talks about how he placed them is just not skill ceiling

[@MrWilpon]

I feel Junker Queen should be higher. Yes most of her abilities are easy to use, but a tank with 450 HP require very very good game sense to survive.

[@rfn8821]

yeah by itself it's a low hp tank but her effective hp is far higher than her normal hp pool with her commanding shout + life steal + supports, and she has an absurdly small both body and head hitbox with a very good a/d strafe and making the strafe EVEN better while using shout. Just as with zarya the low normal hp is not a good indicator to how fast she dies or how easy/hard she is to kill or survive as her.

[@Luis-fd2bi]

While it is true. Then you come into the question of is junker queen hard because she’s bad, or because her kit is inherently hard. Some characters like doom fist are so bad right now, that you need to play two times better than the opponent to win. But is doom hard, or is it because he’s bad. Now in this case doom is really hard by itself, but that’s one of the questions that often comes up in this tierlists.

[@ubergamer2010]

@@Luis-fd2bi JQ isn't bad she's just under-tuned, they nerfed her bleed too much. She's a lot more effective in Open Queue so I'm wondering how they're gonna fix her

[@MrWhelly]

Ahem! There are clearly 4 flying heroes. You must have forgotten Junk.

[@kierangraham2724]

Brig should be higher imo, she’s so squishy in ow2. One bad shield bash means you’re dead

[@Sierra7329]

Brig is soo team dependent in ow2. Losing one more tank while her hp is 200, lower barrier makes not dying s really hard thing

[@jameslowell9656]

What part of her kit is hard to optimize? The whipshot and pack timing/selection thats it......... her skill ceiling isn't that hard to approach

[@drdickenbalz]

Skill ceiling does not mean how bad you get punished when you make a mistake. How is that hard to understand.

[@kierangraham2724]

@@jameslowell9656 the skill of not dying on her has a very high cap. As well as whipshot accuracy but that’s not too hard

[@jameslowell9656]

@@kierangraham2724 when we talk about skill ceiling we mean how hard is to approach the theoretical optimal level of play with that hero. Brig only has 2 abilities that have a ton of optimization potential which would be whip shot and timing/target selection on her packs. Her viability or place in the meta has minimal effect on her skill ceiling. She could have it hard coded that she automatically dies 30 seconds after leaving spawn no matter what and be completely unplayable relative to the rest of the roster but it wouldn't change her skill ceiling other than adding in some resource management optimization to make sure you expend maximum resources before that 30 seconds is up. Know what I'm saying?

[@jonathanm5894]

Moira’s fade jump to second story high ground is difficult and requires you to skim off low objects from different distances to launch onto high ground like an invisible ramp. Try it. It is hard to do, top streamers can’t even do it consistently, and it’s unquestionably harder than Bastions jump tech.

[@lorddonut9488]

What is that endcard bro.

[@djhogan2119]

as a player coming from valorant with 90 hours on this game my winrates reflect this tierlist quite well. The only outlying factor would be statistically speaking, sigma is my best hero, but I dont feel the most comfortable on him compared to other heros, and the fact that he’s “challenging.”

[@tobe.moemeka]

Cuz he’s busted and free value. What this list doesn’t account for is the game sense and mental ability it requires to play some of the simpler tanks that dont have good mobility or range

[@BobFudgee]

YES! he put Mercy in Hard because she is hard especially considering the new mechanics with her already needed massive positioning knowledge and overall decisiveness required

[@jeepersreapers353]

Yes Reaper has a low skill floor, that much is true, but I find fun in him relying more on your own strategy and decision making as a player rather than technical skill. I just enjoy experimenting with flank routes and different plays that I can do, and I’d argue that he has a decently high skill ceiling just because of the difference between your usual player and a ridiculously clever Reaper. That’s just how I see things though, having mained him since the first game.

[@mitchellsalazar6276]

I disagree with like half this but not reaper. It is noticeable when a reaper is good or not but you can say that about anyone. The difference is you can go and play him for like 10 matches and you will already be close to mastering him if you are trying.

[@jeepersreapers353]

@@mitchellsalazar6276 Yeah I get it I just meant there is opportunity to be big brain with the character.

[@jeepersreapers353]

So in terms of tactics and stuff its not like the skill ceiling is low because there aren’t many limits placed on how any given player will strategize. I guess I just meant to say you don’t HAVE to be braindead with Reaper like some people think.

[@Nessmess001]

I actually think mercy is easier now since in order to move in a complicated way you really needed to dedicate time to learning her techs in OW1. Yes, she has more options on OW2 but they are much easier to pull off

[@Nessmess001]

@@machinegirl03 i actually agree! Idk why but even with a high offensive beam usage stat i find its more difficult for me to get to 2k amplified on ow2. Maybe its because there's one less tank to shoot/boost? You really have to squeeze dmg boost into the best places to reach the same numbers I also agree that they should take a look at her kit. Id gladly say goodbye to res if it meant more utility in the actual fight. I do think her old movement wouldnt have been able to keep up with OW2's pace tho

[@YoSoFunnyx3]

Her skill floor went up but her overall ceiling is much much higher. She has a lot more tech now and people are learning new ways to play her.

[@onddu2254]

I would argue that tracer doesn't belong in ultimate mastery. The 3 others there are the kind of heroes that nobody has really mastered, because there's so much you can do, somewhat because they have lot of movement in 3 dimensions. As tracer you need good tracking, blink management and game knowledge. I just feel that there isn't as much techniques as tracer. She can also only really move in 2 dimensions.

[@alabaster3535]

Started maining Echo recently and I can say that she's the most underrated hero ever. She is crazy strong once you get the hang of her abilities, not only a great phrah counter but also a great counter to healers and squishies in general

[@Indivisions0]

I don't agree with Zarya being a "challenging hero" u get more damage by getting damaged there is no argument for how piss easy that can be.

[@RaJwl]

Putting Winston higher than dva/sigma is weird af. He has the fewest abilities and you litteraly dont even need proper aim to play him. Yeah his leaps can be tricky but once you've learned them there isn't much to improve on. Also his ult is far more forgiving because dva/sigma ults actually make them vunerable and you have to really think about it, where as winston ult is instant 2nd life, so the opposite. I understand his ult can be difficult though but 1 tier above is weird.

[@abdulazizaljefri7561]

Bro dva is literally the easiest character in the game. She requires almost no skill, Winston is definitely harder.

[@parzival_35f32]

Winston doesn’t have anywhere near the survivability of those 2. Any misuse of his cooldowns leaves him dead, unlike Dva with defense matrix and Sig who can stun or use grasp.

[@RaJwl]

@@abdulazizaljefri7561 You're not really presenting arguments here. I've played a lot of supports games recently and in my medium ranked experience I can see huge differences between dva players (for example those who eat gravs and those who dont), but winston players all kinda do the same thing as long as their bubble isnt total dog.

[@RaJwl]

@@parzival_35f32 Agree on survivability part, but I would argue misusing cds on sigma also leaves him dead (he has no armour or mobility). Stunning is kinda conditional and very hard which is kinda the point of skill ceiling too.

[@drdickenbalz]

Yeah Karq doesn't really understand how much aim contributes to skill ceiling. Having nearly a complete lack of that can't have Winston being more than challenging tier.

[@rathanagedon3429]

the eternal struggle of tracer vs genji

[@EMPCraft]

Who would you recommend to watch/follow for Tracer techs/mechanics?

[@SakeKage760]

I would say Dante and Apply. Pretty sure Dante is still in pro league and Apply used to be

[@sylpha51]

Kabaji if he still uploads, the guy play the game at 2x speed

[@Bobizingus]

danteh

[@CMiY0]

Someone that tries hard in ranked. I think Kabaji is the go to. Try to understand why he does what he does. And sometimes he’ll do random stupid shit only for the stream (those are bad habit’s don’t copy those). Also don’t watch how he pulse bombs he just yeets them, you really don’t wanna do this because pulse bombs are crucial in being a good tracer in OW2.

[@tobe.moemeka]

Just look up Overwatch league tracer gameplay or top 500 tracer gameplay

[@TypicalCynic_]

Soldier: 76 and Torbjörn should be in the easy tier with Reaper and Moira. Soldier: 76, you can do damage from range and you’re also one of the few full auto hitscans left in the game that can pressure at long range. Even if you don’t have good aim, you can still deal a decent bit of damage if you have any experience playing other FPS games. As for Torbjörn, disregarding every other part of his kit, his turret literally aims for you. You gain value just by existing.