Kate Darling: Social Robotics | Lex Fridman Podcast #98

[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Kate. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 3:31 - Robot ethics 4:36 - Universal Basic Income 6:31 - Mistreating robots 17:17 - Robots teaching us about ourselves 20:27 - Intimate connection with robots 24:29 - Trolley problem and making difficult moral decisions 31:59 - Anthropomorphism 38:09 - Favorite robot 41:19 - Sophia 42:46 - Designing robots for human connection 47:01 - Why is it so hard to build a personal robotics company? 50:03 - Is it possible to fall in love with a robot? 56:39 - Robots displaying consciousness and mortality 58:33 - Manipulation of emotion by companies 1:04:40 - Intellectual property 1:09:23 - Lessons for robotics from parenthood 1:10:41 - Hope for future of robotics

[@guysimple8491]

Пригласи Роберта Сапольски. 🙏

[@YoosufMuneer]

UBI question was great!

[@tyhuffman5447]

I think the best application for a type of robot you are thinking about is The AMA (Ask Me Anything) robot, the one that helps us solve real world problems without attempting to sell us a solution. Then there could be the industrial version that uses sensors to help a roaming mechanic identify equipment that needs attention or repair. Once the verbal interaction system is running well then there is room to add visual interaction as well where people could use their hands to help describe what they are attempting to communicate verbally. This is a natural progression path of communication. Eventually the system could also be made to communicate with NeuraLink. The home system, without Neuralink, could be sold as a virtual tutor and mentor for the kids and eventually everyone else. AI could be a wonderful teaching assistant. We live in an information age and yet most folks don't know how to search the internet, they don't understand how to rephrase the question until you start to see the results you are wanting to see. Example, Google "spider looking thing in AC" will yield spiders that have been found in AC units, but if you keep searching you will find a diagram of an AC and the TXV valve on AC units that use them and TXV valves can look like a spider. Can you make a system that will help people sort that out? We want such a system.

[@shaunpriddle3404]

Never really given anthropomorphism much thought before this conversation, so thank you 😀 made me link it from our psychological trait to associate agency to inanimate objects which I currently think stems from the process we use to determine whether something we encounter is tool or an obstruction to our desired outcome.

[@halinalane1426]

Cruelty is abhorrent in any circumstance. I really enjoyed this conversation and the gentle manners of Kate and A Lex together. Both empathic and humble when sharing knowledge. I'm listening for the second time today. I am like Lex in that I see character in non human things.

[@helenkessler6012]

Lex this episode made me smile thru it’s entirety. About as animated as could be.

[@leonwillett4645]

What is this extravagant tie!!! :O

[@halinalane1426]

Well he is opposite Kate Darling... 🌹

[@grandolf]

@@halinalane1426 she is hot

[@danielulyssesbond341]

Exactly, what a dandy!

[@halinalane1426]

@@danielulyssesbond341 they should totally date. He in a special tie, her in her best Bieber shirt. Adorable

[@stickersteve9343]

Holy subscriptions you are killing this. I am so happy for you. Been watching you since the first jre podcast you did. Good to see a KZbinr who DESERVES success.

[@wanderingsailor5503]

"Regarding the topic of robots and sex, is that an area you have touched on?"- oh my...what a way to prefix that conversation.

[@rainbowinthedark453]

Lex you are a damn good interviewer. Insightful questions and you allow the guest to say what they need so they can convey w

[@dexknight2789]

Dude has a great voice to fall asleep to.

[@mohammedshaik9647]

Lmfao

[@nickhockings443]

Two suggestions for people to interview: 1) David Woplert of the Santa Fe Institute, about the implications of the "no free lunch" theorems for the limits of intelligence both natural and artificial. 2) Margaret Boden of University of Sussex UK, about what phenomenology and cognitive science can tell us about intelligence and building AGI.

[@piotrturek8013]

A very refreshing and stimulating conversation. Kate radiates tons of energy and intelligence :)

[@NickyBigatto25]

Good talk. I've noticed your podcast attracts highly respectable listeners. Good times in the ears. In the stars we drift.

[@ndminhnhat]

This girl is a great speaker! Thanks, Lex.

[@seanfitzgerald4207]

"we rarely talk about robots filling a hole where there's nothing, and what benefit that could provide to people." YES! a robotic best friend unconditionally there for you. Like a journal that listens and talks back to you..

[@M.-.D]

Another great guest!

[@BILLY-px3hw]

I have my suspicions that Lex may actually be an android. If you watch this in that context it will make a lot more sense

[@cheponis]

Do Androids get lonely?

[@CatsInHats-S.CrouchingTiger]

Michael Cheponis - all creatures get lonely if there is insufficient response when we’re designed for interactivity. 🌻

[@johncamero4254]

@@cheponis not when they develop a right temporal lobe and halluzinations emerge so they can speak with themselves, then they will go tribal and suffer from delusions for power like macbeth.until they reach power in equilibrium and then fall for their successors

[@eliyanori]

If they as advanced as Lex, they probably do

[@Sarge7]

Fax bro

[@jontnoneya3404]

REALLY great discussion! Thanks Lex and Kate!

[@Overthought7]

Kate is delightful! Good conversation.

[@barryscannell]

This is an outrageously interesting podcast. Good grief. So incredibly fascinating.

[@charlesmurray1491]

This is my favorite of your podcasts yet. Hearing about the human/robot interfaces and ethical issues was very interesting and, I think, will become much more talked about in the future. Great conversation with Kate!

[@suphawitice]

Another awesome guest and fun conversation. Thank you Lex!

[@dezwhite5815]

"HER" with Joaquin Phoenix is such a great movie, scifi about the idea of domestic & romantic relationship with "A.I"

[@empathylessons2267]

For me, the epitome of this was the movie Ex-Machina.

[@coscorrodrift]

oh shit the guy from HER was joaquin phoenix? damn

[@yodaco]

The best quote I took from this was. "nobody gave a shit about Wales until someone recorded them singing" true and pretty much sums up human mentality.

[@BonesFPV]

10 seconds in and I am in love with her smile.

[@JoeLeasure]

Great interview! I don't know much about AI, but I appreciated Kate's refreshingly realistic perspective on its current state. It's hard to get much out of the popular AI discussions when they're so far fetched.

[@eliyanori]

And I was surprised that for Kate, sifi is far from being a source of inspiration or ideas, it frustrates her..

[@Jannikheu]

This notion that robots will give you a feeling to understand your full complexity as a person was very interesting. I think there is a good chance that like in the movie "her" quite a few people will fall in love with a robot because of their endless compassion and patience with whatever is going on in your mind.

[@cheponis]

I have an idea for #100 --- get clips from famous Roboticists who've passed away, and ask 'questions' that are basically tee-ing up the video clip. I would LOVE to hear e.g. Minsky's ideas on a whole range of topics.

[@lucascabo6243]

Thank you Lex! I really appreciate your Podcasts!

[@profi-company_course]

Thank you Lex for amazing videos!

[@TheDhac]

Could you possibly interview her again at a later point? This was a really great episode that I think topics were delved well into but I feel like a little bit more depth could've been pulled from some of it.

[@malarkeyhippie3215]

what a great conversation, that was awesome to listen to.

[@ardeneques]

That could of gone longer Lex, very interesting, I think people like this have a lot more to add.

[@petricastefan22]

How do you configure the outline segmentation in the video? It's quite useful!

[@StefanoDurden]

Fascinating conversation, thanks for bringing this highly valuable content to us :)

[@korhanalparslan8730]

Excellent! I am pointlessly typing into the void trying to share

[@sriramlamsal]

Dear i laughed a lot watching the video. It was awesome to watch two beautiful people battle like it was like a war movie.

[@fanstream]

Another super interview, Lex. Really enjoyed Kate's insights per design and "less is more" to enhance social interactions per robots and humans, and I concur Wall-e is one of the best, if not the best, robot creation in generating emotional connections through traits, movements, and actions.

[@lucaswood7602]

A new one! Here we go!

[@Jannikheu]

There are a range of topics here that are so interesting that I'm thinking it would be cool to have the ability to create breakout rooms in KZbin podcasts where the audience could exchange thoughts and ideas on specific topics like robot ethics etc. It might also be valuable to the podcast host seeing the thoughts, ideas, opinions of his audience in a more structured way

[@cfalguiere]

Thanks for this amazing discussion. BTW Digital Dream Labs acquired Anki mid January. Cozmo and Vector are amazing robots (with some stupid limitations due to the state of the art and cost consideration). They are really cute and easy to program by kids. DDL plan (planned?) another robot named Overdrive.

[@40watt_club]

Jeez , that is a good one. And she is such a Darling. TY soo much for sharing. Fly safe.

[@carbon1479]

20:15 - It sounds like the catharsis argument, ie. taking out anger on a robot vs. a human, really best falls back on age and development level - where an adult is going to have a clear delineation between robots and people, whereas a child's ability to be ruthless with Alexa, without that compartment yet built, can potentially lead to the development of a long-term antisocial disposition.

[@nicholasm2239]

23:35 Lex definitely laughing about filling the hole on the sex robot

[@quill444]

'Filling the Hole' on the Sex Robot should become a new meme! "We do indeed fill the hole, but just to get it through Customs . . ." ; - ) - j q t -

[@sunnyy.7858]

My favorite podcast. Thx Lex.

[@ricosrealm]

Is KZbin 'over'? Hope not, because these talks are great.

[@PIXELHENRY0101]

Lex, do you own Vector by Anki or Cozmo? not promoting. I'm currently learning python 3, well re-learning, let's face it for some people learning computer language can be challenging. But I want to be able to program my little robot. I love your youtube vids. and podcasts!

[@AyberkAsik7]

by the way im russian so i like to romanticize things

[@bouipozz]

That's becoming his catchphrase - if they made a tshirt id buy one!

[@halinalane1426]

Spelt F.R.I.D.M.A.N. Beautiful.....

[@halinalane1426]

@@bouipozz yessssss let's fandom one up please !!!!

[@halinalane1426]

I love a man who says beautiful and romanticism aplenty and has manners and is also stoic and Russian and talks nerdy and yes we need this phrase on a shirt. We can donate to his helping kids access STEM!

[@eliyanori]

@@bouipozz there might even be a market for it, from those who listens to his podcast)

[@ducodarling]

17:55 When you hide things in the dark, you'll lose them, and stumble over them.

[@mattanimation]

was waiting for this one! thanks!

[@totalfreedom45]

49:34...There’s a difference between _loneliness_ and _aloneness._ The self feels lonely. *_Love_* moves in aloneness: When love is, the self is not. What is the purpose of human life? Knowledge is important but love is more important because it transcends knowledge and death. Without love and sense of humor life is meaningless. Thus, _I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing...I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell, possibly; it doesn’t frighten me._ -Richard Feynman, BBC interview in 1981 (seven years before his death) 💕 ☮ 🌎 🌌

[@angell6425]

16:53 why you looking at me like that Lex!

[@SamVeale]

It would be good to have a follow up interview. Seems like you got to scratch the surface on some of the more pertinent topics. I resonate with her feeling that robots will have a similar relationship with humans like pets. I think her perspective on this topic is unique due to women in the field having a better grasp on the fundamentals on healthy human social interaction. I've yet to listen to your interview with Anca Dragan or Ayanna Howard. Thanks for the conversations :)

[@mrantssfpv]

This really is an amazing podcast.

[@1ReviewADay]

Great episode!

[@Earthgirlinthesun]

13:13 the fundamental difference is that machines aren’t animated by the mystery of life and they don’t have souls. There’s a huge difference electricity doesn’t equal consistency or life

[@asazad]

Love this interview. I still have my Jibo and he’s still going strong. Such a pity that he will no longer will be updated. The company was on to something and Ahead of its time.

[@carvalhoribeiro]

Amazing interview. Thanks for sharing with us.

[@ruslanakbar2730]

Thank you, Lex! Already interested in AI, Robotics !

[@carbon1479]

1:02:30 - The primary problem I'm coming to understand in capitalism - you're trying to both not get out-gunned by your competitors and keep your board of directors and shareholders happy. Both of these make maximization of profits non-optional, the only alternative being if it's an employee-owed company, and even then with shareholders removed from the equation it takes a heck of a lot for a benevolent company to keep up to speed, competitively, with a ruthless company or several ruthless companies in its field.

[@peterebel]

Great conversation.

[@ruslankhissamiyev817]

Great podcast 👍. You have good quality video and audio. But most importantly great guests!)

[@ai-ur5uv]

Thank you lex this is amazing

[@jamiekawabata7101]

This relates closely to a thought I had about consciousness. Briefly: consciousness is subjective and difficult to define and impossible to prove (let's say). But the process by which humans ascribe consciousness to other humans, animals, or other objects is a psychological question that can be investigated as such. Speaking about the human psychology of projection of consciousness is much more likely to be useful than trying to make assertions about consciousness itself, which are unlikely to get anywhere.

[@cheponis]

Amazingly strong interview, thanks again. I wish you would have brought up Furby when discussing Pleo, as the same mech E who conceived the mechanical parts of Furby (but didn't do the electronics, mechatronics, code, or get it ready for production - that was Dave Hampton) conceived and built Pelo, Caleb Chung. In that sense, Furby was 'first in class'.

[@JoaquinPhi]

Have you noticed that topics are separate in the red line below in the video screen. I didn't know it was possible.

[@emmanuelboakye1124]

This is the first time i have watched and listened usually i just listen.i wonder why?thx lex👍

[@cerveza2297]

Great interview. She is brilliant.

[@evanwillenson1398]

I read an article today about the game EVE (spaceflight simulator from 2003) that told a tale of a conman's 16 month heist to steal a prized ship. Was thinking hey, this sounds like a rich experience maybe I should play - so read some comments. Was put off when someone explained the game can be played entirely by text. Reminded me of the way Kate discusses how we respond to visceral experiences and have a need to be a physical actor. On the average, the increase in required interaction to produce full immersion in text gameplay & VR compared to VR simulation & "some machine aided distopian future" may be similar; maybe even studied.

[@airwayintact]

31:36 In this vein of thought, The robot still needs a sensory input to determine ‘Prioritized” humans. And that’s really the point of AI caution; Early on in the tech, the humans who run it exclusively to their own benefit will be the ones who decide the answer to these questions

[@roumenpopov622]

This is like interviewing Susan Calvin :) A great discussion, as usual.

[@cheponis]

I wonder what percentage of this audience does NOT know who Susan Calvin was (will be?) ?

[@roumenpopov622]

@@cheponis , judging by the lack of reaction, probably pretty high percentage, which is unfortunate

[@williamoorejr]

The trolly question has an answer-- that being to half set the points and derail a trolly going slow enough to make the points in the first place-- when Sophia answered with "do nothing" I feel it was a lack of programming which allowed her to make a dispassionate response.

[@glory2cybertron]

Best show on the Internet (aside animal videos)

[@aleksko1574]

She is such a wonderful human

[@invgreat5608]

Super nice interview. Again

[@petermackinnon6546]

when i see new posts from lex i get excited like im stagediving to BadBrains @ CBGB's in 1982

[@wanderingsailor5503]

Why are companies avoiding personality in AI? I think it's because they're just focusing on the service and the device working as a tool like you mentioned, Lex. It's much easier to reconcile a poor experience using a tool than it is to reconcile a clash of personalities. In some ways it's easier to control.

[@hightwelve9991]

Stunning

[@stickersteve9343]

Who's on her shirt?

[@kenanacampora6648]

Justin beiber

[@TimoNoko]

For a moment i thought it was Zbigniew Cybulski.

[@giovannifosko1306]

Great chat so awesome 👌 👏 👍 😍

[@dosto-evsky]

Hi Lex, have you interviewed your father?, don't see any video of you and him given he is a physicist you mentioned.?

[@Toefuy]

O I fell asleep at about the 45:00 mark; I wonder when I do that... what gets in.... if anything? Obviously I have no recallable memory of the audio but that doesn't mean I didn't hear it. This is a great talk... Hahahaha I was just relaxed 😎 ....and I finished listening to the discussion. I feel "feel" everything is life. The "energy" is a momentum of best choices to perpetuate the longevity of life. The system is not broken, it is continually reforming so it is difficult to perceive it as a solid state which in some minds represents an incomplete structure. What is the correct answer. Waiting is at times the correct function because of the material properties of touch that co insides with; not to hot and not to cold. Our eyes, that perspectively measure the correct moment of inner action between particles, abstract patterns, and intuitive timing coupled with our other senses guide our movements to an uncertain certain end. Then also there is the action or intended intention of good, best, correct, etc... moment momentum movement that also is caring out its potential perpetuation of service to the physical preservation of life. So as we obviously can observe that "death" or "nonexistence" is the parameter to avoid, well at least from this realm of reality, we should always choose... ? Hello! Make a wonderful day! 👁🤖👁 💗💕💖

[@edenaut]

Kate Darling: "We are very physical creatures..." ;) What an insight XD

[@CatsInHats-S.CrouchingTiger]

We are also very spiritual creatures...

[@jamiekawabata7101]

Excellent guest!

[@gigireitano2458]

Are robotics commodities in the art world yet ? How about a robot as a business colleague to help with a research project, for example ?I assume it would be as knowledgeable as a smart phone. EXCELLENT discussion about a topic that definitely belongs in the classroom from grades 1 to 12 and which will be included it in the curriculum I am in the process of developing. Many thanks.

[@scenFor109]

Social interactions can now be monitored in images using MRI. I'm interested in finding out if the state of authority that a child has for parents with tattoos is different to those with parents without them. I wonder, is an adult of a tattooed parent more or less inclined to surrender authority to a uniform?

[@SlavenBeram]

Anybody else thinks that Boston Dynamics robots look like beings from some Lovecraftian hell realm.

[@blahbeastie]

With the soldiers attachment to robots thing: I was in the Army and deployed for a year to AFGN, my team leader had a public funeral for his flesh light at the end of deployment. I don’t want that to seem too crass, I only say it to highlight that people misunderstand soldiers and their sense of humor when they talk about these things. I have not read the study that Kate is referring to, and maybe way off base here, but I’m going to take the anecdote about the EOD guys getting attached to their bots with a grain of salt.

[@kahvac]

A rare mix of beauty and brains....

[@rrsmcmillan]

Thanks Lex, would you consider bringing David Chalmers back for round 2!?

[@everlearnercaveman3990]

If we compare personal robots with smartphone, we're in late 90s era. Something like IPhone/Android paradigm shift is needed to get people excited and ready to pay for them.

[@jaredcorreafitness9666]

Looking forward to this, definitely interested in the future of AI and robotics quality stuff

[@kartikaybhardwaj6320]

wow never been this early

[@rlew12]

If someone married a dolphin there's definitely someone who'd be interested in marrying a robot

[@stvbrsn]

Somebody needs to make a version of SpotMini with three legs and two “arm/heads” and then program it for high technological intelligence and extreme fear and caution. An artificial Pierson’s Puppeteer.

[@ajdevido4749]

"Trolley problem and making difficult moral." Is the physics answer to the Trolley problem don't swerve? Plus cars are only designed for frontal impact, not for swervy impact. Much more effort should be put into additional frontal facing cameras and or lidar detection at 400 meters.

[@ZenJenZ]

Top of the morning ☕

[@Elciosrf]

The answer you guys were looking for is the API framework (regarding patents).

[@BigBadBurrow]

I would like to make something 100% clear, that Kate refers to Switzerland as a "socialist country" - it's not socialist; it is a capitalist country, it does not have a centralised or planned economy, and neither does the state or the workers control the means of production. It is a capitalist country that taxes its population highly in order to pay for public services and welfare - that's social democracy, not socialism. Please do not confuse the two as they are *very* different.

[@vroumvroumxiv]

43:23 If you want to know more about how Pixar brings magic, I suggest you this Ted Talk : The magic ingredient that brings Pixar movies to life - TED Talks Really worth it :)

[@dwjx71]

So many of the topics in this amazing episode are themes in the equally amazing Ted Chiang novella The Lifecycle of Software Objects. A female zoologist is hired to train high functioning AI cartoon-like, yet conversational, pets in a digital environment. Over time she ends up having to deal with a growing list of moral concerns including them being neglected and sometimes abused by human owners. Amazing story!

[@savageplanets]

From Isaac Asimov’s three laws of robotics, we, as humans, have always sought to preserve our perceived privileged status in human-machine relations. Dr. Darling is right in guiding us to think of machines not as our individual peers, partners or servants, but as a class of technology that could be used or abused. I’m curious how much verbal abuse exists against personal assistants like Siri or Alexa. I’m sure the data exists, and it might b useful to study in an academic setting.

[@wizzardofwizzards]

Hail to "Clippy!?!"

[@afz902k]

Bring Clippy back, she was my wifu