Kawai GF2 Keys sticky Sliptapes repair

[@TP16862]

I ordered a VPC1 this week, and it’s expected to arrive this weekend. I haven’t had any issues yet, but since the key problems with the VPC1 are so well-known, I was looking for information. It seems like this will be very helpful later on. Thank you.

[@debrucey]

I got a good 5 or 6 years out of mine before I started experiencing problems. Once they started it was like whack-a-mole; as soon as I fixed one key another one would stick. I paid a technician to do a full replacement of the slip tape, and it only lasted about a year before keys started sticking again. Very frustrating. My advice would be to replace them all with felt as soon as you start encountering problems.

[@karsten4400]

Very good instruction, thanks for this. I did as recommended by you to repair my Kawai CA65 but used Pattex Gel because it's easier to handle. Costs around 25€ including Drappstoff, Pattex Gel and Alcohol for cleaning plus a lot of time, but now it's like new again.

[@pianodoctor62]

Perfect

[@melodicsenior]

Firstly, thank you for your video, I found it very informative. I have a Kawai MP11 SE with need of attention due to sticky keys. I looked into buying the felt (drappstoff) from Meyne but the postage cost (55 Euros) is inhibitive. I am currently looking for an alternative in the UK, and I will add to the comments here when successful for anyone in the UK. Thank you again for your time to explain this essential repair for anyone with a GF keyboard.

[@pianodoctor62]

Hello I also tried to find other felts from Asia but the thickness was to big…… the meyne felt works perfectly 😊

[@pianodoctor62]

Did you found the drappstoff it in UK ?

[@melodicsenior]

​@@pianodoctor62 Hi Martin G, I couldn't find any suitable felt in the UK, so I purchased it from Meyne in the end. They did reduce my order from 55 to 15 euros which I was happy with. I have repaired every key on my Kawai MP11 SE, and I am very pleased to report that it works beautifully again :). As you said, the thickness of the drappstoff felt was perfect, so I didn't have to adjust the capstan height. Thank you so much for your very instructive video Martin G, it is so nice to be able to play music with sensitivity again!

[@van_dylan]

@@melodicsenior I'm glad you repaired your MP11SE yourself, how long did it take for it to give you problems? I currently have an MP7se, a very good plastic RH3 action, but I want a wooden action like the MP11se, but I'm afraid if I buy it new, how long will it take more or less for it to give you problems? Wouldn't that be covered by the warranty? Greetings from Germany 🙂

[@melodicsenior]

@@van_dylan Hi van_dylan, Guten Arbend, the repair took me about 4 hours but it was not difficult. The action on the MP11 is as good as the reviews but it is disappointing that the key action isn't very durable. I am hoping that the repair will last longer than the original system. I use the Kawai every day and so far it works beautifully. I am glad that I fixed it myself and didn't get it done under the guarantee for two reasons: I know how to fix it again now if I need to and if Kawai fixed it, it would have the poorly designed original system again. I hope I have helped :)

[@khemaraang]

Exactly what I was looking for, all the instructions I need! Will try it on my CA95

[@pianodoctor62]

my CS7 works now since more than 1 year without the problems from defective slip tapes. Good succes with you repair - it takes 4-5 hours to change all 81 keys... Martin

[@ethanzuck8092]

Do let me know how it goes!! I have had this problem for so long and am going to try this approach as well on my Kawai CA95.

[@khemaraang]

@@ethanzuck8092 I have just finished changing it yesterday! It took me more than 4/5 hours, mostly because of the time it takes to clean the keys from the original tape and the glue residue! It's reaaaaaaaaaaally long. Went with alcohol and a scratchy cleaning cloth (sponge like) to remove it, sandpaper didn't cut it for me One thing which is not detailed in this video is the piano disassembly process, which I found to be perfectly documented on this other video from David Izquierdo Azzouz: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpCuenZ8o9R1aJY . After doing all that, cutting/gluing the felt pads & putting the keyboard back together, everything seems to be working perfectly, with the notable difference that a few keys (5 or 6) are not perfectly aligned at the same height anymore (1 mm or so lower than their neighbours). I have no idea of what is the main reason, knowing that I cleaned/cut/glued all the keys the same way. Also, the key vertical travel feels sensibly reduced: the old pad were quite more worn in the middle (2:08) so it might be the reason behind the difference. I haven't had the time to really playtest after reassembly other than to make sure everything was working perfectly, so I didn't notice any odd change in key behaviour. However the difference in touch is noticeable but in a good way! Other than that, all good! Even if I'm still not sure if spending basically my whole Sunday it to fix like 2 keys was worth it, (future will tell) but at least I'll be able to handle future potential repairs with confidence :)

[@pianodoctor62]

@@khemaraang perfect well done

[@pianodoctor62]

@@khemaraang the high of the keys can be adjusted with the paper rings under each key. The rings are available in different thickness….

[@Dubb1000]

This is such an awesome video, thank you for taking the time to present this information Sir.

[@pianodoctor62]

Thanks a lot

[@batner]

Martin, Hi! So I got another two keys getting sticky and decided to try your way. The felt you suggested does work exactly as you said it would. There is no difference I can feel between slip tape and Drappstoff. But there is a need to regulate the screw to keep the original range of motion of the hammer. If I play 2 keys together I can hear the sound of the one with the felt before the one with the slip tape. If you change the whole keyboard at once you will not hear the difference but the range of motion will be shorter. TL.DR: Rotate the regulation screw by one full turn clockwise to make it shorter. Details: After replacing the slip tape with felt, I insert the key and hammer back in it's place. I play that key "forte" several times to compact the felt and get a ruler. When the key is at rest, I measure the vertical distance between the metal triangle tip of the hammer and the wooden key. My measurements are: for white keys it is 20mm, for black keys 25mm, measured on rarely used keys with original slip tapes. Some original white keys showed 23mm, black keys 30mm. I am not sure what is the deal with it. If you have any official documentation about it, i would love to know the right way. So I rotate the regulation screw to make it shorter until I get the distance about right.

[@pianodoctor62]

I could send you an Instruction manual cs7....to your email Adresse

[@pianodoctor62]

See also my German Video and the discussion and explanation in german

[@batner]

@@pianodoctor62 Of course I saw your german version. I was the one who asked you about english subtitles. But you went "full power" and just made a whole new video in english.

[@batner]

Kawai CS8 service manual is now available on various manual websites. I have found out about it yesterday. It has the relevant key calibration data.

[@pianodoctor62]

perfect

[@PaulShillito-up8im]

Hi Martin, many thanks for your excellent guidance. I have now replaced all 88 pieces of slip-tape on my Kawai CA65 with the recommended felt tape. The most difficult task was cleaning the glue remaining on the ends of the wood keys. I found petrol lighter fluid to be the most effective. I did mark all 88 hammers but maybe this is not necessary, perhaps only ensure that you match white and black keys to the appropriate hammer (they have different screw lengths). The sticky-key effect renders the instrument almost unplayable and I wonder why Kawai did not anticipate the design flaw. Best wishes.

[@Sfeerkeukens]

I love this video. Thank you.

[@motorstock10]

Thanks Martin for sharing the info

[@pianodoctor62]

my pleasure

[@bendirval3612]

This is extremely helpful. I have been removing the little plastic surfaces and re-attaching them but it's not a long-lasting solution. Does this appreciably change the way the keys feel (versus when they were new)?

[@자전거고수-x6i]

Thank you for the detailed instructions! 2 questions: 1) I know I am supposed to add a thin layer of silicone oil on KAWAI slip tapes(according to the repair manual I got from Kawai US. (I replaced slip tapes twice for the last 8 years) Do I also need to add some silicone oil on the felt? 2) Attaching the felt with some adhesive seems hard to peel off the felt afterward. Any recommended adhesive(with specific brand/model) that is easy to rework afterward?

[@pianodoctor62]

no do not put the silicone on the felt - you could use a teflon spray on the felt.

[@debrucey]

@@pianodoctor62 teflon spray... can you recommend a specific product please? do you think teflon powder would work? since that's often used with felt in acoustic pianos.

[@MattRileyMusic]

Thanks for this video! Is there a similar woven felt that can be purchased in the USA?

[@pianodoctor62]

Hello Matt , can you send me a link ?

[@shjarrold]

Thanks for this clear instruction video. Would this be suitable as an alternative and cut to size, or does the Drappstoff have a particular density that makes it more suitable due to similar density to the Terakao 777? (sorry if this comment keeps apperaing but on my youtube the comment seems to disappear)

[@shjarrold]

Ok, I've left 3 replies with a link to the product in question all deleted. I'll try with this description that you can hopefully search for to see what I'm asking about 'Red Spring Rail Felt Strip for Piano Keyboard Replacement 130x1.9cm'

[@pianodoctor62]

Hello Scott , Drappstoff is the unofficial alternativ to terakao 777 from Kawai. It’s a woven felt with 2mm. I found the feeling is quite similar.

[@shjarrold]

@@pianodoctor62 Thanks for the info Martin. if you have the time could you search this one and let me know if you think it would be an ok alternative to Drappstoff? Its the same 2mm thinkness, but also has glue already on one side, paste this in your search 'RED SPRING Rail Felt Strip for Piano Keyboard Replacement 130x1.9cm' And again thank you so much for the info!¬)

[@pianodoctor62]

@@shjarrold hello Scott, I cannot agree because I have not tested this. The main point is that the felt must be a woven felt with a texture. The most felts are not woven felts they are knitted felts. Knitted felt is not as stable as woven felts from meyne piano parts. b2c.meyne.com/Filz-Leder-Papier/Filz/Streifen/Drappstoff/

[@shjarrold]

@@pianodoctor62 Ok, many thanks for making that information clear! Vielen Dank :¬)

[@maartenstoop1306]

Hi Martin Great Video! Do you have an idea if there is a manual for the CA78 model? So I can have a look on how to dissassemble the paino without damaging it. :)

[@pianodoctor62]

Sorry I only found only CS Series, maybe Kawai could send the required info… write an email to Kawai in Germany, they will help….

[@peeess7245]

Great instructions. For folks from the US: E6000 clear adhesive works well instead of the Pattex. The company Meyne will ship to the US, you will not need to pay the 19% VAT, but shipping is a bit higher (for 2 rolls Euro 12.50). As someone commented you need to adjust the hammer by ~1 rotation clockwise as the felt is a bit thicker. BTW: Clue = Hinweis, Glue = Kleber 😉

[@pianodoctor62]

sorry GLUE :-) i am German ....:-)

[@emilianoserojemerlin9290]

hi, thanks for video. I need to say if this solution can be usefull for Kawai mp11se with grand feel. I have this issue now. Thanks for reply

[@pianodoctor62]

good luck

[@malekkinos]

Waht about the alternative solution: from Kawai the original Teraoka no 777 tape + TPFE (Teflon 0.5mm)?

[@pianodoctor62]

will not last very long - don't do it

[@anthonyortiz7924]

Thank you so much!

[@pianodoctor62]

My pleasure ...good success...Takes 8 hours for all 88 keys.

[@alonfrank1665]

Hello, is this the same case for the RM3 Grand II action (Kawai VPC-1) ?

[@pianodoctor62]

I checked it , I think the same architecture,

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

Severe design flaw, in my opinion. GF2 with the round screw head dimpling a cheesy little pad is really garage style goober level of design.

[@pianodoctor62]

unfortunately very often used in KAWAI CS CA MP models. I changed it:-) to piano wooven felt 2mm. You are right - 2500 -3000 EUR and such a design is unbelivable . Kawai changed it in the last years to GF3 keys without sliptapes.

[@JasonGeraldG]

Terrible design. Anyone should have seen this problem coming for so many reasons (use of glue, foam under teflon, need for teflon, etc...

[@pianodoctor62]

@@JasonGeraldG your are right… bad design by Kawai

[@FunSketchMovies]

It is. And it is not only about the sliptape and sticky keys. I think the dimpling tend to make the keyaction less smooth and heavier over time. I bought a second-hand Kawai with GF2 and I recently compared it with a new one at the store and I could not believe how much better the new one was (exact same model)

[@elephantsdad]

Hi Martin! Nice video you have here, thanks for the effects~! Two questions : 1, does keys feel any different from original? 2, does it make any noise at all? Many thanks~!

[@pianodoctor62]

the feeling is more or less the same - for me no difference - the noice is a very similar a little bit harder - but every piano make much more noise :-)

[@Jim0i0]

It took me several minutes to realize that Clue = Glue.

[@pianodoctor62]

Sorry

[@pianodoctor62]

here again the source of Drapptstoff felt 2mm thickniss : b2c.meyne.com/en/Felt-Leather-Paper/Felt/Strips/Box-Cloth/WHITE-BOX-CLOTH-2-0-mm-60-x-3-cm.html?listtype=search&searchparam=7222

[@gregs5154]

Oh man. I've done this *but* I used superglue. It's only been a week since I fixed my sticky keys but the action feels a lot more spongy now. I think I'm going to have to strip her down again and use the recommended glue. Anyone else have this experience?

[@FunSketchMovies]

Why would it feel different by using another kind of glue? It’s only used to attach the wooven felt to the key. I try to replace mine as well and consider using this method with drappstoff.

[@gregs5154]

@@FunSketchMovies I think I was just being a bit paranoid. It certainly felt strange for a while but settled down after a bit of playing. It seems ok after these months of use. I do however need to do a whole set of other keys. So probably will do all remaining keys rather than have to keep going back to it.

[@FunSketchMovies]

I don’t like to hear that spongy feeling you mention, still seems that you don’t fully enjoy the solution. I know I’m very picky about the key action. I tried a new MP11SE at store and it felt very smooth, I would like the achieve the same with my second hand MP11SE