Monarch Lathe Restoration - Part 18: Scraping the Cross Slide Dovetail and Gib

Work continues on the Monarch Model K 16" Lathe restoration with scraping the dovetail and gib on the cross slide. Using mostly hand scraping techniques up in the dovetail where it is hard to reach.
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[@timbober1]

I’m no machinists Keith, I started watching your videos because I’m interested in steam engines. I continued watching mesmerized by your lathe work. I recommended my son take up a trade as his college education was not leading to employment. He is about to graduate with an associate degree, his instructor led him to an internship and when graduates around Christmas, the company has offered him a full time well paying job. I think your videos inspired me, to give him a different perspective on things he might be interested in.

[@stoparret]

I was taught to make a new gibb, leave it over length, and scrape till it fits, then trim excess from the ends that stick out and machine the socket for the adjustment screw.

[@ActiveAtom]

We love scrapping, we hope to need to do it around here one day. Training first then on an actual machine. There are a lot of scrapping videos, but we never get tired of them and we like to watch KZbinrs we already watch doing this type of work.

[@Rich206L]

The absolute right decision, step back, take a look, then take a break!

[@oldpup4810]

Funny reaction on my part. Over 30 years ago I watched them start to scrap the ways on a lathe bed. Was very hard for me to watch them just scraping on a machines ways when I had spent soooooo much time cleaning and oiling ways at the time. :)

[@dj59y]

next episode, time to sturdy up that table your wood working vice is on .

[@budgenatorP]

Never hurts to triple check your measurements after a good night sleep, fresh eyes and a clear minds.

[@luvstruck2733]

Hey Keith, I love what you do. You always seem to go "where no man has gone before". I have a limited budget, so learning restoration is going to be key for what I want to do. Plus I think I will get as much satisfaction restoring as I do in making chips, and general fabrication. Always a pleasure watching you work.

[@wilde.coyote6618]

I have one of these model k's. It does the loins share of work at my house. I wish l had the patents and room to take on this task. Mr. Keith is a dynamo of a workman. He goes though most of the whole machine. God bless him.

[@randomdude1786]

really good series Keith, if it where easy I wouldn't be learning as much. one important thing i'm seeing here is how much patients is a virtue. that machine is worthy of the time, worthy of my time to watch. thanks keith

[@bcbloc02]

First you need to Mic the parallelism of the inner doves on your cross slide to be sure they are parallel. I know you did that on the saddle but don't remember you doing it on the slide. As much as was taken off scraping in the saddle I am not surprised you will need to make a bigger gib.

[@jmh8743]

yep

[@multiHappyHacker]

Could maybe turcite the gib too? considered that on my P&W.

[@CatNolara]

since the gib is getting in there the inner doves should be angled to another on purpose

[@ThAtGuY-u9d]

I will usually measure the rock of the gib and make the adjustments to the sine plate on the grinder, grind it flat again, rescrape the static side and fit turcite to the sliding face then scrape to fit making small adjustments to ensure parallelism.

[@accuracymark]

Keith, I am so glad that you are showing this process, as a machinist I have always heard the phase”hand scraped in”. Always seen the marks, now I see the process, now I understand why these machines had a high cost point back in the day. Skilled labour costs but look how many years of service these machines bring!

[@richards6452]

Keith, hi from Australia. As you scrape you are thinning the gib and the end stop at the far end is preventing the gib to engage along its entire length. if you release the rear screw and retry it should get rid of the shake at that end but the gib will enter further to the rear and you may run out of adjustment. If that is the case then either thickening the gib on it outside non rubbing surface will recover the lost adjustment or if too fine a piece is required a remake may be the best option, Kind Regards, Richard

[@johnleake708]

The "fun" of dealing with used machines. Thanks for sharing

[@WillyBemis]

The gib work is fascinating. Thank you Keith!

[@imaoregonbum6683]

Nice spring return on the workbench

[@RRINTHESHOP]

Always ok to take it slow. Looking great.

[@shujunzhang8027]

Very usful video for me. I have 5 lathes machine with many years. I want to restorate them. Thank you.

[@turbocobra]

Very smart to take a break! Good video Keith

[@sid1977]

A new gib is needed for sure. Old one is short already. Shim is a last resort and not cool.

[@SteveSummers]

Should be 1/4" per foot taper on the gib, at least that is what my Cincinnati Shaper has. I think that's common. Pretty easy to cut a new one. I believe I would do that before I stuck a shim behind it. Either way would work fine I'm sure. Thanks for the video Keith, I always enjoy them. Steve Summers

[@halyenwe]

Hey! Hey! Hey! Steve! No time for commenting on other peoples video! Git back in the shop and work on another video for us, and don't forget about the wood floor update this time. ;-D

[@sid1977]

Steve should already pour his floor with concrete and forget it :)

[@halyenwe]

@@sid1977 WHAT! Tin, Unless he wants the wrath of Elizabeth, the floor will remain wood. ;-) I'm expecting the next update the floor will be done. (Then Elizabeth can start pressuring Steve for that new Welder.) xD

[@LambertZero]

You could put turcite on that gib after you surface grind it to match the angle. That'd make up for the thickness you'll have to take off, give you a better bearing surface and an easier to scrape material. Kind of a win-win-win situation.

[@stevegraves2890]

Quick and easy way is to cheat(?) and add gib adjustment screws. Both my lathes (Standard Modern 1120 - 1970's and Dean Smith Grace 1342 - 1960's) have that feature on the cross slide from the factory. It also allows you to quickly lock up the cross for heavy ops like form tooling set ups or power feed drilling. Down sides for sure such as DRO scale installation with access to the screws.

[@N57RU]

I started scraping in 1982. I have cut down and turcited countless gibs with no issues whatsoever. Your turning tool pressure is on the chuck side. The only thing the gib does is hold the compound in place and keep facing clearance as you face a part. Cut it down and rough the taper close. Apply a thick enough pc. of turcite that you can scrape it in to the minimum you have to to get your adjustment screw to the minimum amount of depth so you have longer life on the gib. Another trick is to cut the center 1/3 of the turcite down below the ends. As the gib wears, it won't start rocking in the center. It get's a little loose, just adjust it in a tad. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone try to adjust a gib and there was a high spot in the center causing rock. That center cut trick can be used if your ways have a slight crown to keep the axis from curving during motion also. You can eliminate 1/3 to half of the discrepancy on serviceable but worn ways...... Good luck.

[@horkinyorkin]

great series Keith.

[@MatthewRulla]

Use a silicone squeegee to apply the blue to dovetails. Gives a very consistent result.

[@halyenwe]

I'm all in with the new gib crowd. (could it be because I like seeing new parts being made? ;-D)

[@brianwarburton4482]

Great video and very informative. I think it would help if you fixed your bench down so that it didn't move so much.

[@bobtherat99]

Re: Even Inking of an upside down surfaces. I had a very similar challenge once. The solution that I came up with was latex tubing over a brass rod. I peened end over but left the tube turning freely. It work great..Like a mini ink Brayer. The problem was the tube diameter left a section un-inked in the corner. I took to using a rubber charcoal blending tool to ink the corner first, then ink and smooth the rest with the Brayer.

[@chuckinwyoming8526]

I don't see how that gib could have fit before your started the rebuild. 12 or 15 thousands off taper?! Probably not the original gib made for that lathe. Must have been a quick fix by someone using a gib from another lathe. Best to make a new one. Great work Keith! Thanks for your videos.

[@honorharrington4546]

If you are restoring the machine, make a new gib. If you are repairing the machine then grind the gib correct. If the gib is then incorrect for adjustment then lengthen the thick end with braze and shorten the thin end to correct the adjustment. Quick and easy and saves you machining a tapered parallelogram that you then have to scrape in on both sides, one for flatness and one for fitment.

[@Tools4Machines]

I've seen several machines with gibs that have brazed extensions on the far end where you have the 13 thou difference. They must have ground them back to true and needed the length after, as you noted you may run out of adjustment, if you grind yours. Cheers, Gary

[@markowen7164]

Use the mag chuk to hold it. Not a G clamp. M

[@johnmav8309]

Thank you!

[@timmallard5360]

Awesome video. I'll make it to a Richard King class some day. Can you mock up the the cross slide on it's back and get an idea of wear with some pins and inside mic. The thin end must have been really tight to bend that gib with the screw. Makes you wonder if the cross slide angle is way off. PS. I tell my two year old son you are the Train doctor. He decided you were fixing parts for Percy today. Great work keep it up!

[@crockteerden4023]

You can put feeler gauge on loose end of gib to see how much your off taper. Regrind to correct taper than turcite face of gib.

[@FredMiller]

Cliffhanger.... LOL. My guess is that there are now thousands of fellas thinking about this problem right along with you. Best of luck Keith. We will all be waiting for your decision..

[@clydecessna737]

Very interesting, thank you.

[@tacitus101010]

I had the same problem on my Tormach mill recently, but not as bad. I scraped the gib, but I had to make a brass shim to stop it sticking out the end of the dovetail. Very time consuming. I would have made a new gib if I had access to a surface grinder.

[@JesusvonNazaret]

making a new gib would bring some interesting videos

[@j.b.6855]

The gib was likely bent to make up the play by someone in the past. When you straitened it, the play was restored. Likely a new gib is needed.

[@davidbutcherjr.202]

s as you scrap the gib will get thinner. So you must August the rear screw out to compassionate for the death.

[@mikeysgarage3697]

Hmm, I don't know any more than what I've learned from your videos, but I'd say either lightly grind back to correct taper, then apply Turcite (which should add enough thickness that you won't be screwing the gib in so much), or just grind up a new one. But then I suppose there's the question of is the surface the gib runs on on the cross slide itself flat too?

[@jmh8743]

thats why it bent. good luck with that gib. my best.

[@shannonstebbens6992]

Looking forward to your solution........

[@spencersaul2086]

Could you make a roller that’s angled to match the dovetail? That way you get an even application of blue.

[@wojciech_migda]

I am so glad I found your video, I have almost the same exact problem with my lathe. The gib in my lathe is kind of too thin and I was wondering how to repair it. What about welding on a thin layer and then scrape it back to the required spec? Would that be an option? Of course the welded side would have to be on the not moving side of the gib.

[@RockingJOffroad]

I know I don’t have the patience to do scrapeing! I had to scrape in main shaft bearings on the ship I was on in the navy, that just about drove me crazy! That was 35 yrs ago! When I do something’s I want to see good results pretty quickly. I don’t understand this as I am normally a VERY patient person.

[@chronokoks]

What made me a much more patient scraper was setting up the place where I scrape right next to the surface plate but in a way so I don't contaminate the surface plat with dust comming off from scraping of course... turns out I hated the movement of the pieces between 2 places... now I can do 20 passes and be completely relaxed :)

[@sblack48]

Check out Stefan Goettswinter's videos on rebuilding schaublin cross slides. Often the gibs are scrap so he makes new tapered gibs and has an interesting setup to cut the taper accurately on the mill.

[@Vintageguy73]

From a limited amount of scraping I've done, I think youre sliding the cross slide too much when you're spotting in the gib. Try only moving the cross slide only an inch is two. And make sure the gib adjusting screw isn't pushing the gib sideways.

[@vettepicking]

Make a new gib. Its easy when you use the crossslide as your jig to hold an mill it.....

[@63256325N]

Good luck, surface grinder perhaps? Thanks for the video.

[@RambozoClown]

New one or turcite sounds like the way to go. Unless you made a full length tapered shim, you would leave the gib unsupported in the middle if you just shim the end. Just think of the great gib making video series you can produce, too. Do you have a sine plate to go under your mag chuck?

[@user-bw4rr4kd9n]

Mr Keith, can you put a turcite piece on the back of the gib to give more room for scraping it on front?Like shimming it but with better results.

[@youpattube1]

With regard to the gib, I am doubtful that the 1/3 & 1/3 swivel point rule is valid for a non-isotropic bar. Where there is more mass, there is more friction. The heavier end will respond differently than the light end (according to me). The dog wags the tail, not vice versa.

[@DonDegidio]

Keith, How about turcite the backside of the gib and surface grind it to leave the material you need.

[@dougrundell947]

I'm surprised your bluing technique didn't show more blue on the big end.

[@AlbiesProductsOnline]

It was the bent gib that took up the slop the previous owner probably did it on purpose to solve his problem and just allowed for it in his squaring up the cross slide but it looked like the gib side was true when you pushed it up against the gib could the ware be on the other side

[@1jtolvey]

" BROWNELL'S " "STEEL - BED " -- LOOSEN GIB , AS IF BRAND NEW MACHINE , SLIM BOTH ENDS . REMOVE SLIDE , CLEAN & COAT IT WITH RELEASE AGENT . SUPER CLEAN GIB & PUT RELEASE AGENT ON ALL SIDES BUT EXCEPT SLIDE SIDE . MIX & PUT ON "STEEL- BED " ( WITH SLIMS ) . CLAMP WITH REFERENCE TOOL , FORGOT NAME . SHOULD BE AS GOOD AS NEW . :-)

[@jr3628]

braze some material on the back side of the gib and grind/scrape it back into the correct taper? or make a new one... ill watch either process.

[@rtkville]

How about gluing some of that turkit (sp ?) to the gib and scrape that in? Sounds like the easiest and fastest rout at this point to take. Just a thought.....

[@ralfgottfridhansson3127]

You made the turcite on the cross slide to thin ,cross slide sits lower, that is why the gib needs to be thicker, + saddle "bearing" has been grind and scraped doves to saddle plane has changed

[@crockteerden4023]

You really should relieve slightly the center on the positive side or you will “rock” with change of direction.

[@CapeCodCNC]

Just drill the gib side of the table and add some set screws to have full length gib adjustment.

[@accuracymark]

You may be able to get some gib stock from the manufacturer.

[@waynep343]

flip the cross slide over.. put the gib screws in about 1/3 of the way each.. mark the length between the tips of the screws on the outside of the cross slide. put the cross slide back on.. put dial indicators at both locations marking the end of the gib screws. pull the cross slide against the left side. zero the indicators.. move the cross slide to the left.. note the amount of movement on the indicators.. you now have the thickness of both ends of the new gib.. you should make it several inches longer on both ends.. so you can fit it to the perfect location.. marking where it sticks out and subtracting the distance in to the end of the screws.. i am curious.. with the big heads on the gib screws.. do they fit in a notch in the gib.. so either could push or pull.. but unscrewing them both pulls the gib tight.. screwing them in might bow the gib.. i would think that it would be really easy on the grinder to create a new gib. the other OPTION.. is to make 2 GIBs... one for the front.. one for the back.. with notches for the heads of the screws to hold each gib in position.. i don't recall if the gib screws can be locked in place with a brass tipped set screw.. this gives you front and rear adjustment. ps.. don't forget.. that when grinding the new gib.. you need to have some BeeGees music playing in the background. perhaps staying alive from the saturday night fever album.. perhaps honoring the rude trolls from youtube.. some jive talking.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXKvfHSelMd_a8k

[@rbaker1423]

You straightened the bend in the gib. Now it doesn't have that curve in it to "take up slop". As long as the dovetails check out OK, just make a new gib. How come you are not using your custom straightedges that you made for this purpose? And what ever happened to the ones you were going to have cast for sale?

[@linuxaos]

Maybe a stupid question but, what if you used some lapping material and move the piece back and forth. Wouldn't the two surfaces eventually completely line up ?

[@zyeborm]

I know it's 4 years late lol but, lapping to match is what you're talking about here, the issue is 2 surfaces will want to make a sphere if you rub them like that. If you're still interested take a look at the Whitworth method for more background. In short the down side is the two parts will run nicely, but they may not be true any more

[@GK1918]

I have the same problem with that style gib screws. As you said and we all know the gib will bend, so I totally agree with Andrew Bittinger to drill and tap on the side , then snugg the origional screws so the gib stays put.................

[@Bobbycat115]

My fix would be grind what you need to make it parallel and epoxi a 20 thou shim to the none moving side .A gib dose nothing but take up space .

[@glennmoreland6457]

Make a new one Keith...

[@paulmedland6697]

Could it be the wrong gib? The original was broken or lost and the one you have now was cannibalised from a different lath and has been put in by somebody before the lath came to you. Either way I think a new gib would be the best solution to the problem as it would be new and you know where it come from and would mean less scraping in if at all.

[@davidkehr4730]

Put turkite on to build it up.

[@davewood406]

Turcite the gib maybe?

[@norberthajzer8722]

Yes, it would be a good idea, at work we have a lathe that is restored to original specs and the compound slide gib has a turcite shim in it. It works really well. It is easier to scrape that instead of making a new one.

[@danielrobinson1868]

I know nothing, but that was what I thought as well.

[@norberthajzer8722]

@chris0tube It is not brand new, it is restored. The gib was worn out so much that it had to be shimmed

[@norberthajzer8722]

@chris0tube i think so making a new gib is not that easy they have an angle and they have to be ground, to be able to scrape them accurately, because most milling machines have inaccuracies.

[@norberthajzer8722]

And i forgot to mention, most of the gibs are tapered to one end to the another

[@theworkshopmechanicchannel3296]

Are you able to shim it with that same material that you glued on the slide ???

[@meshaft]

I don't get the obsession with scraping, I know it improves accuracy, but so does lapping on a granite plate and stoning in other places.

[@ratman396]

I'd make a new gib

[@Dans-hobbies]

I'd vote new gib, it's simpler, and a lot less work!

[@ohhpaul7364]

Is there a gib adjustment screw on each end? Could the adjusting screw be imparting some kind of error? If you shim the gib, wouldn't you need a tapered shim to keep contact for the full length of the gib? That would seem like making a gib for the gib and if you have to go that far, why not just remake the entire gib. More curious than advice. Thanks for the videos Keith.

[@paweisyn7446]

[@elmertudball7671]

Drill and Put some conventional gib screws along the edge!

[@BedsitBob]

I second that.

[@superdansilverman]

absolutely not, this is a horrible idea

[@BedsitBob]

@@superdansilverman Why?

[@superdansilverman]

less rigidity because significantly less contact area, adjustment is much less precise and more difficult to do correctly. tapered gib is a superior design in every way. it would be downgrading a fine quality machine to have features of a cheap machine.

[@Pillock25]

Yeah, unfortunately scraping hasn't gotten anymore exciting over the years.

[@frankinpattaya]

Keith, I’m not up to speed on the scrapping, but wouldn’t it wear in with use after a few hours of work, regards Frank

[@doctwiggenberry5324]

I know nothing about what you are doing, but snap tabs are not precision.