Ken Hackathorn on the Thompson and the MP5

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Today I am speaking with Ken Hackathorn about submachine guns - specifically the Thompson and the MP5. Mr Hackathorn has an extensive resume that he is quite humble about, but I will point out that it includes being a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor. He has a great deal of practical knowledge about military small arms, and an unusually insightful perspective. So if you want to know why the reality of the Thompson is not the same as it's image and reputation, or why the MP5 is the best submachine gun that has been or ever will be, then settle down for a fun half hour!
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow

[@Ms2mark]

THE MASTER...... Please make as many videos with Mr. Ken as much as he’ll allow...

[@2wheeleddemon999]

Most if not all of us support this comment ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

[@nigmaster1]

Please I could listen to this man ramble about guns all day

[@sum-tingwong9936]

Yes, I love hearing his firing and training knowledge and not just because most everything he says echos everything I heard during training on using and running subgubs, especially the push/pull between the shoulder and offhand.

[@magamexican6302]

Hopefully he is in AZ also

[@ccolon83]

just the way he handles the gun, dude has finess

[@brutusvonmanhammer]

One of the things i love most about Ian is that, even though he literally knows everything Ken is talking about, he still reacts as if Ken is teaching him something. He does such a great job of standing in for his audience

[@DanielFoland]

I like Ken, he's fun to listen to

[@WTFisTingispingis]

Daniel Foland He's like the grampa of gun nuts. And so is Hickok.

[@sarjim4381]

My uncle fought with the Seventh Army from D-Day to the Rhine. He was one of the assigned guys in his company to carry a Thompson. After about two weeks of humping that around, the firing pin broke and he was able to get an M2 carbine. He never took his eyes off that gun until the VE-Day. He never told me how the firing pin broke but i suspect it wasn't an accident.

[@dobypilgrim6160]

M2 carbines were available a few weeks after D-Day? Lol. Ok

[@Lombo1]

Had to have been a M1 Carbine. M2s we're fully-auto and used in Korea.

[@sarjim4381]

Don't know but, according to him, a crate of the first M-2's were delivered to his unit sometime in early August, 1944. He was able to get one, and used to all the way up to VE Day. I know they were used during WWII, mostly in the Pacific, but his story was that some got to delivered to Europe in hopes of getting some testing in winter conditions. He passed on in 2007 so all I have left is the memories of what he told me.

[@Imissthefuhrer]

Sar Jim should have found himself a mp 40 then he’d have a real smg.

[@JohnDoe-gi7nt]

Proof or it never happened, probably never happen.

[@perihelion7798]

A veteran Thompson was my 'off base camp' gun in Vietnam with the Air Cav. It was lacking the shoulder stock [never did find one for it]. Took it into Saigon many times, using an adapted AR sling. It was heavy, and rather slow firing, and not very accurate [plenty accurate for the alleys, etc in Saigon's shadier sections] but the sheer intimidation effect was quite wonderful. I loved it.

[@MrJack1992]

When you say sub machine gun for mobsters or a GI gun they think Thompson. Sometimes guns get their reputation by who carries them. Uzis and Mac10s/11s got their reputation from the cocaine era criminals/narcos. An MP5 screams 1990s/early 2000s swat team. The M60 will always give that Rambo feeling. The AK-47 will scream terrorist gun. For awhile the FN-Fal screamed NATO troops. Weather we want to admit it or not some guns are famous because of movies.

[@cognitivedisability9864]

@@MrJack1992 and the p90. STARGATE sg-1 baby

[@raouldukesgolfshoes1253]

@@MrJack1992 1000%

[@MrJack1992]

@Reinhard Heydrich for soviets it would be bakelite mags all the rail gear and full body armor to describe the Russian police units.

[@glenfinch4297]

@ Mr Jack , I will forever associate the mp5 to the british SAS & the London Iranian embassy ! As a kid growing up in the 80s , I was awe struck seeing the SAS repelling off the roof & into the windows dressed in black fatigues armed with mp5s..

[@veryInteresting_]

That mp5 fits in his hands like a glove. You can instantly tell he has handled that firearm for countless hours

[@Sabrowsky]

Im not much of a gun guy myself but I can listen to people talk about the history of things all day long. And this here is a perfect example of that

[@justinheads5751]

"Ian McCullum nods a lot for half an hour" lol Loved the vid

[@johndilday1846]

My dad carried an M1 model Thompson for a while during WW2. He loved it, but like you said, he was a truck driver, not in the infantry. He thought it rather useless in Normandy, as he said the Germans would shoot at them from across a field, and he said he could see his rounds impacting the dirt halfway across the field. He switched to an M1 rifle after that, until they got into urban combat and tried to switch back. All the Thompsons were supposedly requisitioned for the airborne troops, and was issued an M3 "grease gun" instead. He didn't like it, he said because it was "cheaply made" and had , according to him, too slow of a cyclic rate. I asked him why he didn't carry an M1 carbine, and he said that it "didn't hit the Germans hard enough to stop them with one hit". That was his opinion of the available guns. He said he carried a bag with 25 30 round magazines in it (he was a truck driver, remember), not in the infantry. He said that they all loaded 27 rounds in the magazines to make them more reliable.

[@sik3xploit]

Sounds like the technology of the war had it's own uphill battle it was fighting, perhaps mostly because people were still relying on WW1 technology at the beginning of it all.

[@ironraccoon3536]

Hmm... I've heard conflicting reports about the Carbine's firepower. I'd imagine your dad probably doubted the power of .30 Carbine beyond close range, while people who say it worked fine probably used an M2 Carbine at closer ranges.

[@Justowner]

You dad probably never successfully hit his targets with the m1 carbine, so may have had a bad rifle from the factory. The .30 carbine has similar energy to a modern .357 magnum fired from a reproduction levergun, if you hit somebody with that, they'll feel it. I'll doubt the m1 carbine he was issued before his own skills, because if he was pegging hits with the garand then his skills weren't the problem.

[@cavalinorampante1]

These talks with Ken are amazing. It's like history in the telling from a man who's knowledge and experience may never be matched. Truly a pleasure to watch. Thank you Ken for everything you've done and thank you Ian for bringing this legend to us.

[@davidwallace5738]

Great video. Thanks to both of y'all.

[@theimmortal4718]

Ken Hackathorn has no combat experience. He was never in combat and got out of the Ohio National Guard as a private. He's a pathological liar.

[@Edeinawc]

@@theimmortal4718 The way he acts handling those guns like a movie star definitely lends itself to what you're saying. Not to say he isn't a great range shooter or knowledgeable in history, but the way people talk about is weird reverential.

[@theimmortal4718]

@@Edeinawc I agree

[@fien111]

Watching Ken reload that MP5 is kinda amazing. The guy looks about 70 but that muscle memory is so smooth and fast it's like butter on glass.

[@highlandoutsider8148]

I'm always a little jealous of you when you get to see all those beautiful old firearms up close, but not as much as I am when you get to sit down and listen to these old boys tell you the things they know and have seen, positively green.

[@gusmc2220]

I'm so jealous of Ian, he gets to go around the world playing with guns and talking with interesting people about something he loves for a living! I wish I had his job lol

[@1lovesoni]

My family has a Thompson 1921ac as a family heirloom. We've used the same name for 5 generations too. Ernest Sr owned a hardware store in the 20s and bought a few to resell. His son, my great grandfather, Ernest Jr. bought one. Now it's passed to every Ernest, up to me, the 5th.

[@AdamOwenBrowning]

Ken is brilliant, and partly because he absolutely loves doing what he does. See the fun he has when he demonstrates how vehicle crews entering combat throw the retractable stock. Man, he's having fun and loves the topic. Makes it great long-form content to listen to.

[@matthaught4707]

Ken is such a font of knowledge. Dude has seen and done so much over his life, it's great to see some of that knowledge getting recorded for posterity.

[@apg7593]

Ian, I love the interview videos. Very interesting discussions and I always learn a lot! Great job!

[@planescaped]

The way Ian glances to the camera as he talks makes you feel like you're there with them, like a creepy silent mute. Or maybe I've had too much weed.

[@CCW1911]

I know a guy missing the end of his left index finger from wrapping it around the barrel of an MP5 , you have to be careful where you put your digits. Another great interview thanks Ian.

[@SkyNinja759]

Old comment but I'll still put this here: How good is magwell grip on an MP5 and other sub-guns? For safety it makes sense to grip it decently far away from the muzzle. I never fired an SMG before so this is just spitballing.

[@gureno19]

Looks like a nice old guy. But when he starts handling that MP5 and demonstrating the selector technique. You get the feeling this guy could still do alot of damage

[@lulolee5325]

What a stupid comment... even if you are 9 years old kid it's still stupid and clueless...

[@epitaph3988]

@@lulolee5325 Looks like you’re the stupid one, lmao.

[@HrZD16]

I'd really love to hear Ken's thoughts on modern .45acp sub-guns like the UMP.

[@geroldgrimel4811]

Ian *would* be the kind of man who just happens to have an MP5 in his chair.

[@tripleog9557]

More of Ken Hackathorn is a good thing...!!!👍🏼👍🏼 love it

[@Lawfully_Armed]

Ian, I love the sit down interviews/discussions with Ken and Larry. The transfer of knowledge is invaluable.

[@aries_9130]

What an incredible gentleman! I hope that there will be more videos with Mr. Hackathorn. Thanks for the awesome interview!

[@Hadanelith1]

These interviews have been absolutely fascinating. Mr. Hackathorn is clearly a well of information, and I, personally, would love to see more videos with him expounding on his collected firearms experience. Great video, keep it up!

[@DiggingForFacts]

Another wonderful interview. Thanks for doing these Ian: Ken's insights really are a treasure trove of information. Some kids out there have one badass grandpa.

[@stevee5598]

Ken Hackathorn needs to become a staple of all your videos. I could just geek out and listen to that guy for hours.

[@xray235]

Another excellent video, Ian. Your skills as an interviewer have certainly improved over the years. This is the kind of Forgotten Weapons content I love, please consider doing more.

[@FEARPaintball]

Loved this interview. The Thompson M1 has always been my favorite SMG. It was great to hear a more in depth perspective of it.

[@justinlehnert9667]

Man I’m so jealous you get to sit with Mr. Hackathorn and listen to his insight on two of the most iconic weapons in history. What an incredible experience and thanks so much for sharing. I truly enjoyed it. I like hearing about historically significant guns from folks that not only have personal experience with them but also aren’t afraid to talk about myth debunking design flaws that steal some thunder from their reputations.

[@Spitsz01]

Great interview Ian. Ken Hackathorn is very interesting, hope you do more interviews with him. Great stuff!

[@harrychung433]

Thanks for another wonderful interview with, Mr. Hackathorn, Ian. The man does not throw any punches and probably would have told Col. Thompson straight to his face. I would enjoy spending a whole day, just watching and listening to you both talk the good and bad of a variety of weapons. First case of ammo is on me.

[@0BAAC0]

Loving these interviews. You learn so much by talking to the guys who have first-hand experience.

[@dockmasterted]

Ian it is always a pleasure to see, and hear from someone who knows the right way to use a gun and shows it!

[@Winchester7734]

Awesome interview. Love listening to Ken

[@salvadormelendez9749]

AWESOME interview! Ken is truly an authority on the subject of firearms and to see him on FW is a recipe for a very educational video. Thanks.

[@rememberyourusername728]

I love the guests you have on the show. Ken, Larry Vickers, and Patrick are always a joy to listen to.

[@carlmaki]

I love these interviews. Ian, please do more of these. Do a long one with Larry Vickers and/or Massad Ayoob.

[@nc_classics_9610]

Carmichael Fong this

[@ellomdian]

This was one of the best 'interview' vids you've done!

[@diamondflaw]

Absolutely wonderful video. Thank you!

[@mattrowley1675]

Ken is a walking brain. I am officially jealous! Thanks again for the great content Ian!

[@CKinnerley]

I saw the title and built and immediately pitched a trouser tent.

[@gorazdvahen492]

Hear hear! We like ol' Mr. Hackathorn. Welcome back anytime! It's great listening to that kind of back and forth. It adds flavour to a great channel, that's what it does.

[@LionofCaliban]

75,000 rounds? Now that's one hell of a life. I'd love to have a shooting lesson or three with Ken Hackathon. Especially with this. Also interesting to hear Ken say the SMG's are outdated. Not sure any other man can speak with such confidence. I'm also surprised to see that forward grips came in so early. I thought there were much more recent. This makes me think they were coming in during the 60's. I thought the Steyr AUG was the first real weapon to get it. Sounds like I have some research to do.

[@LOUDcarBOMB]

The AK AMD-65 tanker version uses another pistol grip as a foward one.

[@konstantin.v]

Also the Chauchat :D

[@LionofCaliban]

Let me amend it to infantry scale, standard issue equipment. Chauchat wasn't the standard issue or an infantry rifle. Automatic rifle, sure, not the standard issue Berthier, Lebel. So in this case I think we've got a Soviet weapon that did it first, for the standard issue weapon. Austria only adopted the Steyr in the 70's from memory. Late 70's?

[@konstantin.v]

> It's been an idea almost since the conception of automatic weapons Oh, exactly! We forgot about Fedorov Avtomat :D Although... Was it really a grip? Looks a bit too close to the magazine.

[@Breakfast_and_Bullets]

This is a particularly interesting video for me, as I live about 5 miles from Thompson's childhood home

[@1johnnygunn]

It's been awhile but your videos are all top-notch

[@sambaggins2798]

Mr Hackathorn, appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Ian, great video as always.

[@twofishrexy918]

Great video. A fascinating insight. Thanks.

[@EchoOscarDelta]

Very cool vid! Some knowledge bombs from Ken on the MP5 and how to handle it. 👍🏼

[@bengriffith5963]

Thank you for another great video.

[@charles_wipman]

The H&K MP5 in Spain still in use by the Armada's Combat Divers, the Guardia Civil SRTs and the National Police aswell as some regional police corps; but they're replacing it with UMP9s. That thing of have the stock outside the shoulder was also the way to go with the CETME L; everyone i know that worked with the MP5 say that's a reliable, accurate and confy to shoot and carry weapon.

[@delivery4249]

I loved reading Ken's articles in Guns & Ammo back in the day when I was but a kid: good to know he's still going strong!

[@fredriklundgren1943]

Awesome video. Thanks a lot for sharing

[@gj658]

It's so interesting to hear this guy's perspective! I really wish I had the money to get a full auto MP5!

[@mazkact]

Loving these Hackathorn pieces, more please.

[@kilppa]

These kinds of videos are so PRECIOUS. It is a very good point that he makes about the low shoulder stock. If you take a look at Suomi KP or soviet alternatives, you can see how much higher it is, so you get a better sight picture.

[@JeKramxel]

Really love Ken's grasp of technique. Would love to see more videos that show proper gun handling techniques for various riffles.

[@nicholasfoldes2970]

Years later and still good info and content

[@bigghoss762]

I love listening to Ken Hackathon talk. He's the only person who ever made me seriously consider the 1911 for a carry gun...for about 5 seconds.

[@bdash1990]

bigghoss762 A great design. Beautiful lines. But it’s a 100 year old design. And it shows.

[@russetwolf13]

Working at the Browning museum I never told anyone they were wrong to carry one... But I always told them Browning himself made the High Power to be superior in every way. So if you want an original Browning design for carry, get a high power, it is the best pistol he built period.

[@bigghoss762]

russetwolf13 Well it was the last one so obviously it would be the better design. I have one as well but it's also long in the tooth.

[@bigghoss762]

Stop trolling.

[@bigghoss762]

boomanh63 He's obviously just trolling. Don't let him suck you in.

[@Archangel5847]

Thank you for this, Mr. Hackathorn is a national treasure.

[@jonathandavenport2500]

Yes! Another video with Ken Hackathorn and Ian talking. : ) I love these videos.

[@LiamDCoughlan]

I love how Ian is so engrossed in what Ken is saying. You can tell he respects him a lot and is genuinely interested in what he’s got to say. As I would be in the presence of a man like Ken, incredibly knowledgeable and would he amazing to pick his brain for even 15 minutes!

[@LiamDCoughlan]

21:35 ish, when Ian says I can believe that afterwards 😂👍🏼 I can too tbh.

[@ultrablue2]

Thompson truths; all be told, it was WWI technology and philosophy and was more of a stop-gap than legend. The MP40 and M3/A1 were the future of the SMG- an industrial weapon made quickly and efficiently.

[@warwickben]

I’d say Suomi or ppsh

[@nicholashall7233]

Sten all day

[@axelpatrickb.pingol3228]

The M3, the PPS, and all other stamped-sheet metal SMG's were the future, the MP40 was still made through machining.

[@jic1]

The Sten was garbage. The British knew that from the beginning, but it was functional and cheap to make, which was really all that mattered at that point in the war.

[@Paciat]

MP40 and M3/A1 the future? No. They didnt last 1 war and were outdated in 1945. MP43 or M1 Carbine were the future. In 1920 Thompson and BAR was the future. Cheap SMGs were the need of present day in WWII and were not popular after WWII.

[@GeezerWheels]

Excellent again! Most of us will never touch either arm, but historical and general interest are well served. Thank you!

[@troy9477]

Loving the series with Ken. He has a wealth of experience, and it shows. I remember reading him extensively in the gun press in tbe 80's when he was a SWAT guy. In the early years of my LE career, i was fortunate to be able to get in a little practice with a couple of MP5's, incl the SD model. I had never fired a full auto weapon before. Beautiful gun, well made, extremely smooth, and quite accurate. Controlled bursts were easy, and the groups were fairly small at 15 yards or so. It definitely impressed me. If i as a novice SMG shooter could get results like that, clearly the gun worked well. Shortly after that, i got some experience with the Beretta M12, as my agency got 2 of them. Decent gun, reasonable accuracy, good control. 2 round bursts were the norm due to the cyclic rate. You almost had to think about it to get a 3 round burst. Not as smooth as the MP5, and it had the limitations inherent to open bolt designs. The folding stock was excellent, and locked very well. I always liked them, but i liked the MP5 better. There is still some SWAT use of SMG's, and i hear the Kriss is seeing some use. As Ken points out, 3-5 simultaneous hits in the boiler room will put someone down and out just as well as 1 or 2 good hits from a rifle. Saw a helicopter video of a SWAT incident somewhere in GA years ago. SWAT deputy was going from rear to front of house where there was a barricaded subject. Unkown to him, suspect comes out the front, armed, and toward the side the deputy is coming up. They almost run into each other at the corner of the house. Deputy us able to quickly respond and spray the guy with a long burst, about 8 rounds, and it looked like they all hit. Perp goes down like he was poleaxed, and was never able to raise his own long gun. The SMG still has a place. I know of some agencies which use them (semiauto only i think) in lieu of shotguns because they are lower profile in a car, and can be out of sight on a floor mount. Interesting idea, but the shotgun is more versatile and more powerful. Might have some value in detective or admin cars though. My idea for a spacesaver trunk gun or motor gun was an MPX in an 8" SBR configuration in.......wait for it.......357 Sig. Best possible ballistics from a gun that size. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you

[@tyclark8162]

Put a Franklin HK-C1 trigger in the HK SP5/MP5 n fall in love with the semi n binary trigger with pictograms. So happy I found one. If you're looking for the veryyy best collapsible Brace/Tailhook combo go with a KES hands down the best n 4 position Brace/Tailhook combo. Custom Smith Manufacturing also does good work, but its fully in or full out. I use vests n heavy coats so I love my KES Brace/Tailhook assembly. Check em out, you'll love the quality of craftsmanship. I will buy another for a future build I am going to build. Use the technique Ken demonstrates for the selectors operation. I love my first HK SMG.

[@jonroehr2931]

Thank you Ian & Ken! Wish it was longer. Love both those guns. Thompson is really heavy 12l/13 lbs loaded. Only complaint with the MP5 is the pressed in barrel. Saying hi to Karl. I love that Lage Of his!

[@michaelmurphy7939]

Ian please do more with Ken, Larry and others. Great content. Consider more long form conversations.

[@trashcanpossum230]

Great video, I really hope you do more videos with Hackathorn.Who else really wants an MP5 now?

[@germanredneck4414]

its a pleasure to listen to Ken.

[@MeekoSan]

Absolutely awesome video!!!!

[@adrianfirewalker4183]

Such a great video!

[@guilhermechecchia6914]

This series is awesome!

[@thinman8621]

Ken Hackathorn is a talker with a lot to say that I want to hear. Great interview. Thanks

[@alchemist889]

Another awesome interview. The era of the SMG may be coming to an end, but at the end of the day a chunk of metal flying at you at sufficient speed is still going to hurt. They'll stick around for some time. They still have their uses as more efficient suppressed weapons, only really surpassed by rifles using cartridges expressly designed for subsonic use like .300BLK and 9x39mm. Also, what we Americans might call machine pistols such as the MP7, MP9, etc. are still going to have a niche because they're smaller than any carbine. Good for anyone who needs to conceal an automatic, work in extremely confined spaces, or who just feels like carrying one like a handgun.

[@icebluecuda1]

Its so nice to see ian spend time with his dad.

[@danielschnopp-wyatt3578]

Great video. Thank you.

[@gearchallenge7555]

Outstanding! Mr. Hackathorn, true scholar and gentleman.

[@Flintknife]

Great stuff! Thanks.

[@Nik930714]

I would really love more videos with Ken.

[@bassmechanic237]

Amazing time piece

[@OsomoMojoFreak]

I'd love to see a video on the UMP, such a cool concept with the ability to change calibers on it pretty easily. Change of bolt, barrel and mag, obviously not something you do out in the field, but the fact you can use the "shell" is pretty cool.

[@norbertblackrain2379]

Great discussion!

[@ALLTINSOLDIER]

Would love to hear Mr. Hackathorns opinion on the MPX line.

[@leib109]

Good tips on the MP5. Thanks!

[@GeeMann95]

Great video 👍🏻

[@nigeh5326]

Trajectory like a loaded toolbox 😃👍 never heard that before. Great interview Ian you balance the need to talk with the need to listen so well

[@AdMan-The-LabRat]

Fascinating Capt' Ian!

[@chuckcrookshanks847]

Wow Ken is so knowledgable. Wonderful discussion.

[@maxsmodels]

Ken is a great source of info and wisdom

[@prof2yousmithe444]

Very cool video!!!

[@Jarris2]

I like that, for the most part, Ian can let other people say things he already knows. Something I need to work on!

[@graymane5526]

Great Video

[@sctm81]

Ken is a truly a fountain of information!

[@bwats1743]

Could listen to Ken all day.

[@TheDoorspook11c]

Met Mr.Hackathorne in the most awesome of places, on sandhill in bootcamp. He was in full uniform for another engagement and just walked through our platoon evening mess formation! Totally badass! DS's were all puppy eyed, we didn't know why at the time. 2/58 Charlie Co. Summer 04. Love of country.

[@thomasbernecky2078]

I always thought the grease gun was just a cheap, fast SMG (our version of the Sten gun) to replace the expensive Thompson, so I learned something new here. Thanks!

[@milgeekmedia]

I've probably told you this story before, but my father's favourite weapon (he was in the British 8th Army - 'Desert Rats' - during WW2) was the Thompson 1928. BUT, he was second line (supplies) AND liked it because he was a huge Jimmy Cagney fan and loved American gangster movies! :D

[@sabertoothray]

More of these!

[@humblehummus3956]

“Trajectory of a loaded toolbox” my sides, sir, they hurt from laughing