SPINCLEAN, HUMMINGURU, DEGRITTER VINYL RECORD CLEANING..

With my friend Miguel. A physicist and music loving audiophile in New York City.
Look for my next video with Miguel, as he describes his beautiful SME, Audio Note, and Avantgarde Acoustics hi-fi.

[@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac]

Oh boy!

[@miguelbarrio]

Steve: I can clean any of your records without touching them with a Delrin wand or anything else other than water bubbles. I think you should come over for a trial run!

[@ellischernoff8603]

Most of my records have clean surfaces to start. I'm using the Hummingbird Guru and getting cleaner grooves and sonic improvement. Distilled water per directions only. While more expensive ultrasonic machines might produce smaller and more cavitation action, I do observe bubbles being produced during the cleaning cycle and there is a reduction in noise, pops, and clicks.

[@miguelbarrio]

Yes, the HG works. Especially when you have a record without visible dirt on or precleaned the visible dirt off. The DG's higher frequency works a little better, for a lot more $.

[@darkcustomxxx7252]

"I like my records a little dirty" -Ringo Starr.

[@JWD1992]

I just gave a Ringo 45 a thorough cleaning last night. I guess I ruined it, haha.

[@jdm-uk-yank]

OCD much?

[@tyke23vids]

@Miguel Barrio I have a SpinClean already, but not ready to buy a Degritter at this point. If choosing between a vacuum system like a Record Doctor or the Hummingbird, which would you suggest? I'm curious on your opinion of vacuum systems in general. Thanks!

[@miguelbarrio]

I would recommend SpinClean then right into the Humminguru. For solutions you can use what SpinClean recommends, then just distilled water with 1% alcohol in the Humminguru.

[@tyke23vids]

@@miguelbarrio I think I like this plan :) Is the included SpinClean solution the best? If it was you and you were only going to use a SpinClean and then the water and 1% alcohol solution in the Hummingbird, what would be your ideal solution for the SpinClean?

[@miguelbarrio]

@@tyke23vids As I mentioned, the SpinClean (SC) is great at removing grease and major dirt. The Humminguru (HG) is not designed to remove visible dirt, only the dirt inside the grooves. For the SC I use this solution: 800 ml distilled water + 50 ml 91% alcohol + 10 ml Propylene-Glycol (Propylene-Glycol is what is in Kirmuss’s spray recipe). For the HG use this solution: 385 ml distilled water + 10 ml 91% alcohol. This combination is going to give you effectively a form of the Kirmuss cleaning method. If you have a very dirty record you can run the HG without drying going over the SC + HG a couple of times, and drying on the last cycle. If you have records with tons of fingerprints (which are greasy) I would add 4 drops of TergiKleen to the SC solution.

[@tyke23vids]

@@miguelbarrio Thank you very much!

[@mccarthyd6603]

Why the need to crank the Jazz in the background🙉🙉🙉🙉🙉🙉

[@miguelbarrio]

Why not?

[@derekgentry]

This video -- and particularly all of Miguel's comments & replies below it -- have been tremendously helpful to me! Thanks to all involved!

[@georgealanlpsandcds9311]

Very informative video - thanks!

[@miguelbarrio]

If you want my recommendation on ONE machine, get the Degritter and Spinclean if you can afford it, if not get the Humminguru and Spinclean. A Spinclean is a must for any record with visible grime, IMHO. Also, if you get the HG, order the adapters for smaller records. A no brainer.

[@derekgentry]

Hi Miguel! Do you have any recommendations about how to approach spot-cleaning some stubborn gunk off an old record? I just unsealed a record from 1971, and there's just one tiny spot on it where something light colored -- maybe debris from the paper sleeve? -- has welded itself onto the surface. Vacuum cleaning (with Record Doctor) and ultrasonic (with Degritter) haven't budged it, but I've only used the Record Doctor cleaning fluid and the Degritter fluid so far. Wondering if I need a stronger fluid to help break it down -- maybe something with alcohol? I do have a Spin Clean as well, so I could try something in there. Just wondering if you've ever encountered these kinds of spots yourself -- I've got maybe two other records with this kind of issue. The rest of the record looks great, so I'd love to figure this out.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@derekgentry What I would do is lay the record flat and put some liquid on the spot for a few minutes with a mix of 20% alcohol and some surfactant (eg propylene glycol). I would expect you’ll need to force it off once softened, and for that I think one of those rubber MoFi brushes that have velvet glued to the based are great. I hesitate to recommend alcohol but sometimes there’s no other way. Mechanical rubbing with a brush is often unavoidable.

[@derekgentry]

@@miguelbarrio Thank you, Miguel! Just to clarify, when you say 20% alcohol, I'd be making a mixture of ~20% isopropyl alcohol, ~80% distilled water, and some small amount of surfactant? (And I do have some of those MoFi brushes.)

[@miguelbarrio]

@@derekgentry I neglected to add: once you have removed the spot, immediately do a spinclean. You want to remove the higher concentration alcohol right away.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@derekgentry yes that’s what I mean. Make sure to rinse off alcohol right away - it keeps softening the plasticisers.

[@67Pepper]

Most "ordinary" people already think Audiophiles are nuts, better keep them away from this video.

[@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455]

I think they're nuts. They could hear all of their music but they prefer a small, condensed, meager facsimile of the original event.

[@Matasky2010]

Only a physicist would use 3 different cleaning machines to clean vinyl LOL!!

[@miguelbarrio]

An experimental physicist! A theoretical physicist would instead find a mathematical explanation as to why records don’t need to be cleaned.

[@mikekuhn214]

For heavy gunked records or mildew records I use Ajax dish soap and water. For less dirty records, I use my HG with distilled water and Tergikleen. Hope to try a Degritter soon but need to get the funds for it? Removing fingerprints seems to b difficult by any ultrasonic record cleaning machine but sometimes I can remove them using Ajax dish soap and water. And also the Spin Clean is another useful cleaning method. But adding Tergikleen 2 this method probably helps a lot.

[@martin0reg756]

Thank you,, these comments are very helpful, just made me a copy. This is the best FAQ for record cleaning machines and solutions.

[@Roudaki677]

Miguel, Can you please repeat what your solution consists of exactly? Distilled "water+alcohol+Tergitol+propylne glycol" all these ingredients???? My setup is quote similar: Trusty VPI 17 (when needed), Spin Clean for dirty records and Degritter. Thanks

[@miguelbarrio]

Spinclean: - 800 ml distilled water - 50 ml 91% alcohol (5%) - 8 drops Tergikleen - 10 ml Propylene-Glycol (1.2%) HumminGuru: - 385 ml distilled water - 10 ml 91% alcohol (2.2%) - 4 drops Tergikleen - 4 ml Propylene-Glycol (1%) Degritter: - 1.6 l distilled water (tank is 1.6 l, cavity uses 1 l) - 20 ml 91% alcohol (1.1%) Adding surfactant to the surface, either with a brush or the HumminGuru, is critical. And I think removing the surfactant in the last cycle is also critical. If you're just using a Degritter, you could use two tanks: one with water+surfactant (possibly the Degritter solution) then one with water (+alcohol?) as the rinse.

[@Roudaki677]

@@miguelbarrio Thank you, I understand now, you use different ingredients for the various steps.

[@SonicPVC]

If you are on a budget, dish detergent is also very effective.

[@ecyfoto]

Interesting to see Miguel recommend the HG. I still think the jury’s out on that one. 2nd gen should be better……. I hope.

[@miguelbarrio]

I have had it for some time. It is good as an entry level ultrasonic. The reviews I have seen involving putting a lot of grime on the record are nonsense. An ultrasonic will remove thin layers of dirt into the groove that are impossible to get to otherwise. It is not the best method to remove visible dirt, for that I recommend starting with a spinclean. I should add that, unlike the Degritter and Audiodesk, the HumminGuru does NOT filter the water as it is running the cycle (the other two do). And given the volume of water (400 ml) it will likely not do as thorough a cleaning as the other two do.

[@handsoffanomaly7]

@@miguelbarrio I would think, given the low volume of water used, that you could just empty the water after each use. Is that correct?

[@miguelbarrio]

@@handsoffanomaly7 Yes you could, but you shouldn't need to. Ultrasonic cleaning is useful for "in the groove" dirt, not surface dirt, which should be removed with a mechanical method like a Spinclean.

[@JBLClassic]

After I clean mine with the ultrasonic I put little colored dot stickers (from office supply store) on the back so I know it’s been cleaned.

[@miguelbarrio]

I usually use a new inner sleeve which says something like “Invest In Vinyl” and I know it’s been cleaned

[@slistone1940]

Do you think the Degritter cleans better than the humming guru? Can you hear a difference?

[@miguelbarrio]

Yes, DG is more effective than the HG. However, if you preclean records with something like the Spinclean, which will remove most large dirt (and I would recommend regardless), I would say the do a similar job. The Degritter will go deeper into the groove as the frequency of cavitation is 120KHz vs 40KHz for the HG.

[@slistone1940]

@@miguelbarrio I currently use one of those ultrasonic tanks from china with a DIY motor to turn my records. I wonder whether this is good enough or whether I'd get something much better by upgrading to a degritter. But you kind of answered that question. If i preclean, imagine it would be similar.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@slistone1940 If used with a rubbing method like the Spinclean or similar it is close to the Degritter. Spinclean+Degritter will be better, marginally.

[@perecukrov3532]

Hi Miguel! Been reading about the HG for a couple of days and watching videos of people reviewing the product...Until now I have been cleaning my records with the SpinClean and the fluid it comes with. Drying the records has been a big pain for me because of the static it introduces, if I leave them to air dry I'm risking them getting contaminated with dust again, ruining the cleaning. My question is, do you think a pre-clean with the SpinClean (and its fluid), and then a clean and dry with the HG will pretty much clean up the record and remove the static (pops and clicks)? Or is it really necessary to have the surfactant step between the pre-clean and distilled water only clean in the HG...hope you can help, thnx

[@miguelbarrio]

Yes. Pre-clean with the Spinclean and its fluid, then Humminguru (with a little alcohol) is a great protocol.

[@perecukrov3532]

@@miguelbarrio could you tell me how much alcohol would that be in your opinion for the HG's tank? thnx so much ;)

[@miguelbarrio]

@@perecukrov3532 The HumminGuru tank takes 400 ml of distilled water. I would recommend 4ml of 91% alcohol. One thing to keep in mind is that alcohol will evaporate faster than water, so if you leave the solution sitting in the tank for a while, the alcohol concentration will be lower. Frankly both distilled water and alcohol are cheap so I think you should replace the solution very often.

[@ergloo6660]

The Degritter opened my ears, records that I though ruined or unplayable sound amazing, no visible scratches are noy fixed but 95% of tics, pops and crackles are removed.

[@al2813]

@miguelbarrio Hi! Your answers in the comment section were a revelation! I have some questions and I hope will read them helps me make the final decision. I have been hesitating between the Humminguru and the Degritter. The Degritter is a lot more expensive, but I could stretch if it was SIGNIFICANTLY better then the HG in terms of results. Based on the below I do not get that impression. In fact I am thinking of getting two HG to do one wash with surfuctant and one rinse without and reduce cleaning time. I also understand the pre clean is still needed - I have been using L'art du Son with Knosti (the equivalent of spinclean in Europe). Is this a good method or better to switch to alcohol. I also sourced Tergitol 15-S-9 for the HG - would that work with your workflow? I hope you see the questions and answer because I have been unable to decide on this for weeks now.....

[@miguelbarrio]

Just saw this for the first time... What is key here is to not expect a ultrasonic (ANY ultrasonic) to remove visible dirt. You need to do that first. I have settled into this workflow: I have two Spincleans, one with Tergikleen, one with propylene glycol (what's in the Kirmuss spray) and the Degritter. If a disc is new or looks pretty clean, I will only use the Propylene Glycol bath then the Degritter. If it has visible dirt, I use Tergitol, then rinse it off with the propylene glycol, then the Degritter. I think this will work pretty similarly if you replace the Degritter with the HG.

[@1999zrx1100]

I’ve heard records left in a ultrasonic cleaner too long is harmful. I’m playing it safe and staying away. I use the cheap ass Spin-Clean system with great results. The difference a cleaning can make on older records I’ve come across is incredible. 😎

[@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455]

I own an ultrasonic cleaner. I have not once left the Record in there. That goes against the basic impulse of cleaning a record. you want to play the record after you’ve cleaned it. Ultrasonic is entirely different level of cleaning based on different premises than spin clean or any vacuum machine. I Queens on an ultrasonic level. This is far different than rubbing the grooves or trying to suck the dirt out of them.

[@miguelbarrio]

The HumminGuru, Degritter, or even the generic ultrasonics all have timers. Even if for some reason you forgot, the worse that can happen is the record sits in a liquid bath, it is not running an ultrasonic cycle forever.

[@aussierob7177]

This is what i use to clean my records, both new and old. A record cleaning machine (Nitty Gritty ) A work turntable.A mold release agent (Power Cleaner) Record cleaning fluid (L'Art du Son) Distilled water. Last record preservative. There are no "clicks" and "pops" on a record that has never been played. They are the result of the stylus sending shock waves through the vinyl punching minute holes out the other side.

[@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455]

"They are the result of the stylus sending shock waves through the vinyl punching minute holes out the other side."

[@roscoejones4515]

Haha!

[@preservedmoose]

this is a joke, right?

[@aussierob7177]

No. Think about the physics involved.

[@VinylRundown]

What does propylene glycol do?

[@miguelbarrio]

It is a surfactant, it helps cleaning in two ways: it reduces the surface tension of water allowing it to "wet" the vinyl more, and with it, oils will disolve in the the water. Tergitol (I use the Tergikleen brand) works similarly.

[@VinylRundown]

@@miguelbarrio so same thing that photoflow does. Is it “better” than photoflow or even nonsudsing dishwasher soap? Thx.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@VinylRundown Photoflo is probably very similar. Dishwashing liquid likely has a lot of other things - eg moisturizers for your hands. Propylene glycol and tergitol seem reasonable and advocated by many out there so I am using that, but I do so at relatively low concentrations and I try and remove it all prior to drying with water+alcohol (1% concentration).

[@bradleykay]

I’ve seen discussions about whether the lower frequency machines are potentially dangerous to the records while higher frequency machines, like the Degritter, are safer. Would love to hear from a physicist on this one.

[@miguelbarrio]

I have done some research on this. First off, there are entire journals devoted to "sonochemistry". I will summarize what I have learned so far: 1- 40 KHz (HumminGuru's frequency) produces bigger, more energetic bubbles, than 120 KHz (Degritter's frequency) 2- The DG bubbles are 1/3 the size (approx 8um vs 2.5um, the size of the bottom of the groove give or take) 3- Both machines are safe in my testing As a data point, I have this brand-new MoFi pressing of an album I love who's 2nd side had a LOT of noise. I run it 6 times over the HumminGuru then the Degritter. That did a fair amount of cleaning. Looking at it through a microscope I saw no pitting in the flat areas and no apparent damage to the groove walls that I would discern. My conclusion is these machines, with the power used in each one, are not damaging the vinyl material.

[@miguelbarrio]

I'll get a little deeper into this rabbit hole... At low frequency, around the HG frequency, one starts to mechanically damage the PVC. But given the times and power used, I find this negligible. At frequencies around 500KHz and above the ultrasonic starts to produce OH groups (an acid). So the choice of 120KHz for the Degritter seems perfect: the bubble size is about 2.5um (roughly the width at the bottom of the groove) and yet not high enough to acidulate the water. There are a ton of paper on these topics in the sonochemistry journals. Like I said in another one of these replies, I have run repeated cleaning cycles on some records and observed no surface damage on them when looking at the flat areas and grooves through a USB microscope.

[@kc12112]

That's funny, I've heard that the higher frequency ones are thought to actually cause wear in the grooves. It would be nice to get some clarity on this.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@kc12112I have not found any research supporting this (and there is a lot of research). In fact, there's a paper that shows the physical damage on noryl (similar to PVC) goes DOWN with frequency. This is likely because the number of bubbles increases substantially with frequency so the energy PER BUBBLE is smaller.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@kc12112 Check out "The 5 biggest myths" from X junkie NL here on YT

[@Licoricedisc]

Ultrasonic cleaning alone does not get a record clean. A vacuum or other physical type RCM is needed, with the ultrasonic used as an accessory.

[@miguelbarrio]

I agree. Any record with visible dirt I run over the spinclean first

[@jmal5390]

@@miguelbarrio What is the purpose of the ultrasonic if it does not clean a record? I can understand the desire to use the spinclean on heavily soiled records to avoid contaminating the ultrasonic, but the poster above seems to suggest that ultrasonics do not themselves clean records. Can you elaborate? I've been considering a Degritter for a few reasons: lower noise than my VPI, hands off cleaning, smaller/better form factor, and equal or better results than the VPI. I do not wish to use a process that requires more than one machine. Most of my records are either new, or very clean used copies. It would be very unlikely that I would have a record with substantial grime. I'm just looking for a simpler, more convenient process than standing around nursing the VPI. Thanks

[@miguelbarrio]

@@jmal5390 What the ultrasonic can clean in small dirty embedded in the groove, and remove chemicals coatings on the vinyl - either from dirty or from the pressing plant. Think of it as a detailing tool: if your car is dirty with mud you are not going to use a sponge to clean it: you will first use a hose or similar and once there's no visible grime you can use a sponge and wax on it.

[@christophernoto]

Holy Carp! Miguel, the physicist audiophile with a gazillion dollars worth of hifi gear in the other room, sits on the floor with his record cleaning gizmos! That changes my perspective, completely! 🤯😂❤️

[@aw1889]

All the reviews on the Humminguru that I've seen show that's it doesn't do a good job. It's a wasted step in this process. The spin clean and $3000 DeGritter is more than enough.

[@miguelbarrio]

The HumminGuru is coating the disc with surfactant very thoroughly and the Degritter is only using water and a little alcohol to deep clean and remove surfactant completely.

[@miguelbarrio]

The important thing I should note is that I want to achieve two things with the ultrasonic cleaning: using surfactant then using water and a little alcohol to remove it all after cleaning and before drying. If you used the Degritter with its liquid alone, you would not be removing the surfactant at the end of the cycle. You could use the Degritter twice with two tanks: one with water+surfactant then one with water+alcohol. I just use the HumminGuru simply because I have it.

[@JorenzTanada]

@@miguelbarrio Thank you for this insight. I will now research on what surfactants can do to my records, and determine whether or not I am sufficiently motivated to overcome my laziness and run them through a manual spinclean prior to the Degritter. (I know for sure I cannot afford another one 🤣) ¡saludos!

[@miguelbarrio]

@@JorenzTanada Watch TheAudiophileMan's review of the Degritter here on YT

[@Average-Al]

@@miguelbarrio Have thought about doing the the two step process with just the Humminguru for both steps? Worth it for a user on a budget?

[@louissilvani1389]

I’ve heard that some ultrasonic cleaners don’t take your fingerprints 🤔

[@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455]

True

[@miguelbarrio]

None do. Any visible grime should be removed by some mechanical means, either a vacuum machine, a spinclean or similar

[@gotham61]

@@miguelbarrio The Audio Desk does. I think that's what the rotating barrels are there for.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@gotham61 A little bit, but the brushes do not rub the surface very hard, their action is more to move the water around, which probably helps a bit. However, keep in mind that changing the Audiodesk's liquid is a pain so you want to keep that liquid as clean as possible. It is very advisable to pre-clean a visibly dirty record with a more mechanical method in my opinion.

[@miguelbarrio]

Pops vs Veils... This is the interesting bit to me... You might think cleaning records is about removing ticks and pocks... Surely you'd want to get rid of ticks and pops, but what I have found (along with many others that have looked into this) is that the removal of some sort of coating on the grooves leads to a dramatically opened and more transparent sonic presentation. You really have to try it... What is it? I presume it is some chemical leftover or some such thing. The effect is noticeable in most records and remarkable in others, even new pressings.

[@kuglepen64]

The Thai chemical company that delivers vinyl pellets to Chad Kassem’s QRP said when asked by Michael Fremer, that there is no ‘release agent’ in the PVC formulation, but it did have ‘release agent properties’. That’s as close to an answer I have been able to get. I also take note of the many different appearances of surfaces of records. Some look greasy and slightly mottled, and I wonder what is going on in those cases.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@kuglepen64 What I can tell you is cleaning a new record oftentimes produces a better sounding record.

[@miguelbarrio]

It is important to understand each machine’s design and how to use them effectively. The Degritter uses 1 liter of liquid in its ultrasonic cavity. It also continuously skims the water bath (very similar to a pool skimmer running all the time). So the Degritter is better able to handle dirtier records due to the higher overall volume AND the continuous filtering. Additionally, it has removable tanks so doing a surfactant then a rinse cycle is possible. The Audiodesk also skims the water, uses an even larger volume of water in the bath, and has some spinning brushes helping grime off the record surface. Since changing the water is a major pain in this machine, you definitely don’t want to be cleaning overly grimmy records in it. For this reason running a surfactant then a rinse is not practical in this machine either. For the record (pun intended), I have never used an Audiodesk. The HumminGuru uses a mere 400 ml of liquid and no continuous skimming so it is best used on records where there’s no visible grime - it will do a good job of removing the thin, almost invisible layer of dirt inside the grooves. It also has a useful design advantage: it pumps the liquid into a small removable tank when done, so doing a multi step process where you run water+surfactant then water only to rinse everything off is easy - and you can buy extra tanks from them now.