Antenna Wars Part Two - The Controlled Environment

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

What did you learn from this part of the experiment?

[@johnkershaw9575]

Never believe that any antenna is already resonant. Put a meter on it and find out for yourself.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

So true! I am just as guilty of this obviously and that’s a great take away, especially for our high dollar HF machines.

[@cartercombs]

As always, thanks for the informative video. I still miss Tony's channel.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Thanks Carter it has been fun playing with these two antennas and gaining a better understanding of antenna theory at a basic level. I try to make them understandable for a very entry level ham and skip some of the heavy jargon and technical terms that are over the top so I hope that helps. Anyway, thanks for the comment and ya Tony did some good things for the portable community. Wish he would go back to that.

[@richardwhitcroftkc3rrw63]

Thank you for producing this video… info like this helps me to grow in the hobby.

[@AD6DMDennis]

Great video @KG6HQD Jerry! Impressive performance from a roll of wire (referring both of these antennas), a few connectors, and a stick. This is what amazes me about ham radio, it breaks down science-y concepts into practical application and with the help of the ham community (i.e. the Reverse Beacon Network) you are able to verify first-hand these concepts. There will always be much more fun and investment in something you build yourself and see working. Not to mention you can't even buy the linked dipole from the seller anymore... so if you wanted to do a pure dipole rather than el cheapo speakerwire, you'd have to do lots of new seller research and find a quality builder. For me, much rather build it myself since the theory behind this particular antenna is easily explained. What I appreciate most is that you're one the folks getting out there and doing this stuff: Building, testing, and bagging the peaks to get your signal out there. It motivates the rest of us to get off our butts and get out there! 73 de AD6DM

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Thanks Dennis and I appreciate everybody out here who motivates me to keep on trying things and learning myself. That’s the part of this hobby that means the most to me. Oh, and the “In association with the #JerryNet” is a nice touch, thanks 👍🏻

[@woodrow6611]

Great video and I learned that I can't wait to get my HQD Antenna™ built and in use and the XYL will be happy that I didn't spend a lot for it!

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Ha, yes it’s an XYL approved antenna model 🤣

[@JohnParnellK7HV]

Great Video! I appreciate your efforts towards making a controlled comparison. I do a lot of portable backpack operating, at portable QRP ops when traveling, but my favorite activity is working DX from ocean beach campsites. I have used all types of antennas: vertical wires, longwires (both with counterpoises) and inverted vees for 20 & (sometimes)15 meters. For DX purposes, the best results have been using a RG58 fed 20 meter inverted vee up about 30ft, with the center conductor hauled up in a tree with tent line. I have also used this same antenna as a vertical, with the center conductor leg up vertical and the ground leg draped on the sand as a counterpoise.I have tweaked them with a small ant tuner. But most of the time nowadays (since I am a bit older than when I packed in an Argonaut 509 and lantern batteries up the beach trails 40 years ago!) I use a KX2 (w. tuner) a 55ft (#22 wire)longwire and a 9:1 unun - a much lighter load. This also enables me to work 80-10 meters, so I can chase (mostly CW) DX on 40/80M at night as well as talk to my NW pals on 80M SSB. I am willing to sacrifice a few DBs for band coverage. I checked your RBN readings and would opine that I did not see the dramatic difference you saw considering the conditions. Some of the stations (K3PA in KS) and a few of the other stations were stronger on the 1st antenna. The surreal 41 db reading from the VE6 might be due to a spike in the propagation. This past weekend had a LOT of QSB and conditions could have changed rapidly, improving to some areas and degrading in others. In defense of your friend's commercial antenna the SWR might have been better if deployed flat between two trees or as a straight sloper. When I cut an antenna (using the 468/freq in Mhz = 1/2 wave dipole L in ft formula), I usually need to trim it a bit when running it as an inverted vee. (ignore previous comment if it is designed for in-vee deployment) I think a great test would be to go to that park with a buddy and set up the 2 antennas at opposite ends of the park running 2-3 watts within a few seconds of each other @ the same power. THAT would tell the definitive tale. Anyway, the most important thing is that you seem to enjoy what you are doing. You are doing a great job of sharing your love of radio with us here...TU! - John, K7HV / HC1HB (I have a few videos here on YT as well, but not as well produced as yours!)

[@jameski5oeb668]

Learning antenna theory is the key! I think my first antenna build, while i'm reading the technician license manual, will be a ladder wire 2m/70cm dual band, Dave Tadlock Special. or maybe make his exactly then try the ladder wire next.

[@scottfulton159]

Great video Jerry, may I suggest using a field strength meter for actual signal flying off the antenna versus depending on conditions being the same during both tests. It is VERY UNLIKELY that conditions would be the same. I use a field strength meter for a mobil installation test and it was quite helpful for determining the rf strength between two different stingers. Can even check at different elevations off the ground to determine the take off angle. 73s

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

sounds like more testing gear would be needed for such a novice test... maybe you can send me yours to borrow? Good hearing from you Scott.. is it hot out there in Tx yet?

[@tangotracker5297]

Good stuff Jerry! Glad to see you back! Chuck N2MHA Cleveland, Ohio

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Thanks Chuck & I consulted both ARRL Antenna books, thank you! 👍🏻

[@tangotracker5297]

@@KG6HQDJerrySOTA Any time Jerry!

[@TheOpenAirGarage]

The outcome is about what I expected. Nice comparison. Looking forward to seeing the next part.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Thank you, and part three will be SSB on a SOTA peak for an activation.

[@piecetrain9767]

I like the test Jerry. I think you have controlled what you can. It still is not controlled due to different times and if I recall correctly from watching this several days ago that some of the RBN stations were different. A field strength meter would be nice but not within the equipment most hams possess. I take that they both perform well. I would not expect a material difference in performance given they are both inverted v antennas cut to be resonant in 20m and similarly situated when raised. I would not expect much difference in resistance of the radiating elements. The feedline portion perhaps. I think we can get too hung up on which is “best” when the better question is often which is effectively carried, deployed, and used. I think they are both effective when cut to be resonant where desired. The videos are fun. Hope to get a s2s with you sometime from W5T.

[@W5DON_in_Oklahoma]

Good presentation Jerry. Nicely (and fairly) done. The RBN data is a good indicator of both antenna’s performance. I’d give the edge to the HQD antenna in this round. Give me a heads up when you plan the next test. If there aren’t thunderstorms in my area (like this weekend), I’ll set up as well. Texas weather is somewhat unpredictable in April. Don / W5DON

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Thanks Don - the RBN data was tabulated but with some unequal terms - I tried to compare the stations BOTH antennas reached but more can be dissected from the results and what else what be good is the overall range each antenna was able to achieve too.

[@W5DON_in_Oklahoma]

Jerry - Maybe do the comparison three ways: 1. Compare the signal strength of the stations that BOTH antennas reached. 2. The number of stations each antenna reached in an hour. 3. The distance of the farthest station each antenna reached. That would be more of an “apples to apples” comparison. Don / W5DON

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Agreed, unfortunately on Twitter Tony is jumping on a total average between the two and while that is data I don’t think it’s apples to apples as you say... at this point anything that puts the data analysis level seems to be discounted instead of just interpreted.

[@W5DON_in_Oklahoma]

The only other variable is condition of the band, with no way to quantify or control. The third test will show more.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Agreed, absent the antennas being in exactly the same location with the exactly the same setting and transmitting on calibrated radio at exactly the same time with exactly the same setting all this is null and void and useless info, or so thinks one. I think I did as much as I could to test fairly and provide some form of objective data and no matter what that’s a good thing. Thanks for the feedback Don and you definitely brought value to the conversation with some ideas not just for this test but maybe even some others as well.

[@bigphil6980]

this is a antenna I can build myself as my first build so I look forward to making it Phil M6PGU in the UK

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Awesome, have fun Phil :)

[@W7EDM]

Built one of these fed with coax before I ever saw your videos. But I didn't own an analyzer at the time and the best I could do was measure, guess and hope for the best.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Do you still use it or have it to see what it looked like on an analyzer?

[@dongibbskk4qam]

Another great installment in the series. Good idea using the RBN for external data. At least it can't be said that your using bogus numbers. Would love to see a rebuttal series and the methods used to prove the former K9ARV dipole was a better performer.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Well he was adamant it would outperform the HQD speaker wire but the RBN data and the clips showing each setup with each antenna on the analyzer should help to quell any allegations of malfeasance on my part cuz I’m sure that’s next. I know I did everything I could to ensure a fair & impartial test with objective results. We shall see how it goes now.

[@dannyboydkj7bpn]

I would say that you did do an honest comparison. That’s the nice thing about building antennas, not everyone is going to be the same. We all do adjustments to get them where we want them. It’s suppose to be a fun experiment. It took me three tries to get my 2m 70cm ground plane antenna how I wanted it it. So are we going to see a production of the HQD wire antenna?? KJ7BPN

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Hey Danny, thanks for seeing it as objective as I could as that was my overarching goal. As for the “production” well I hope everybody makes at least one but I wasn’t doing this to sell them, rather to help motivate others to make their own antenna really.

[@douglasdreger3852]

I wonder if there could be a minor continuity issue in the coax? I've never seen the SWR change like that with a simple coil.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

It threw me for a loop too but once it was all straight it was on so 🤷🏼‍♂️. Everything held after that

[@adamrixey]

Along with all your on-mountain SOTA videos, thanks for the great Antenna Wars, Jerry. The highs and lows are good to know. If we break the spots up at 1631z 06 Apr, I believe your data shows an average of: 12.6dB for the N9SAB/K9ARV antenna, and an average of 9.7dB for the KG6HQD antenna. It seems like WSPR with the grid square distances would be relevant too. We *could* come up with a dB per maybe 100 miles averaged over all spots. Right now, we don’t know if the less measured antenna might have actually been received further. However realistically without getting into raw WSPR data, a comparison between several but quick back-to-back WSPR maps would help us get an intuition about all those distances received. I like my similar 100W-rated 20M and 40M N9SAB Tim Ortiz antennas and my 20M and 40M KG6HQD/speaker wire antennas. I think I missed out on the N9SAB/K9ARV QRP-rated antennas. Tony got me into QRP with his channel. Great guy. Wish I had a few of those videos for reference. Weight, cost and DIY pride are definitely values I appreciate on the speaker wire. I made a 20M and 40M with my young daughter. We had speaker wire all over the house. We loved it. Hard to tie that knot in the 40M with all the wire… and a helpful 4-year old. There will always be “gold” mixed in that copper. Thanks again for the all the videos. N4NAS Adam Google spreadsheet with spot averages: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sCLXg964hhzytj2CDOC1L0gHGlZd9O3JTs5fpBSGlR0/edit?usp=sharing

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

I like that dB over 100 mile idea for an even more objective analysis if one wants to even dig deeper. How’s the 40m HQD speaker wire working for you? What is the length you chose for the transmission line and what gauge wire did you use? Also, I completely agree, Tony is a great guy and exposed many people to QRP portable ham radio when he had his channel running; wish he still did to be honest. I think you nailed it with the “gold” reference, that’s a solid analogy for the intent of making your own antennas, no matter what kind or how stellar they are or not it the experience that matters most. 73 👍🏻

[@adamrixey]

@@KG6HQDJerrySOTA I checked some notes from last year. For the 40m, I was shooting for 7.200MHz. The BNC to female banana binding posts connect to about 74' total of 24AWG speaker wire. 39' is for the feed and 34'5" for each leg plus a little spare to attach and tune the ends. I have about 9'-12' of tent rope on the ends. When sketching it out, I anticipated a 19' pole. I ended up pulling out the last thin section of the pole making it about 17'6" tall. I estimated 128deg between the legs at 19' so it is probably a little over 130deg between the legs now. Obviously, the legs are not near as close as the 20m I have at about 92deg. For the 40m, that 12' tent rope gets it about 3.5' to 4' above the ground with the 17.5' pole. I ran some WSPR runs before. I remember being fairly satisfied with them. Actually, I just setup the 40m again in the backyard to confirm, at 7.200MHz I am getting an SWR of 1.06 and the impedance is 53.2-j0.4 ohms. Now, that spring time is here, I just need to find the time to get it to the summits. N4NAS

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Discussing this very info on our digital mode group now and it’s in line with our estimates 👍🏻

[@LavaKimo]

So you have compared how well they radiate. Is there any difference on the receive? I built your antenna and have used it when I was on Molokai on business. I set it up at the hotel and got on the daily Hawaii HF net and got good reports on 20 watts. WH6FQI Jim, Big Island of Hawaii

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Hi Jim, good to hear from you from the Big Island. The RX on both sounded the same to me as far as noise levels but I wasn’t giving it much down time. I hammered the TX to get as much data from the RBN as possible but in listening to my audio clips they didn’t stand out as one being any noisier than the other. I will for sure observe this in part three of Antenna Wars when I do a SSB SOTA deployment. Thanks for a good reminder since it was brought up by Tony that my antenna would introduce noise. I don’t want to leave anything out.

[@zul32]

Hey Jerry, maybe I didn't see it - but do you have an EFHW vs dipole antenna Wars video? That would be a good one to see too! 73, KZ7ZUL

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

I don’t but can add a “Part 4” cuz that sounds fun 👍🏻

[@HillCountryDemo]

Nice video and great work Jerry. It seems to me that basically what you have with your HQD antenna is a dipole fed by ladder line. One wonders if your "ladder line" feedline offers significantly less loss than the opposing antenna's coax? It's curious to me how I grew up with the notion that coax is better than twin lead but look at your antenna and the performance difference. I wonder if you could improve the performance of the HQD antenna by feeding the dipole portion with a high quality, light weight ladder line? You have caused me to seriously reconsider how I may construct some of my future dipole antennas. One thing is for sure, you can't beat the price of the HQD antenna! Talk with you on the summits. 73. Rich. KB5EDR.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Amen to that! I think I’m going to build a 40m version for the home QTH & I may experiment with some ladder line since I have some laying around then solder a PL-259 connection for my 150’ or so of coax to feed it to the shack. The best part in all of this is how it has people thinking and exploring. GOOD STUFF!

[@Hogdriver88]

Very well done comparison. Why buy a single band antenna/coax for a lot of money when you can have the satisfaction of easily making what can be used as a multi band antenna for next to nothing. 73 de KE2SX

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Agreed!

[@paule7837]

When’s your next video?

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Hey Paul, I usually take a couple months off when it first warms up to let the snakes get out n settle down so my dog doesn’t get snagged. That and we’ve had some whack weather lately with lots of rain so I’m hoping soon. I want/need to wrap up part three of this series.

[@w2msa]

Jerry, Thanks for the video series and for sharing a lot of good information. I would like to see a comparison between an OCF antenna and the HQD antenna. I'm sure yours being a single band antenna would win but the OCF will offer the convenience of switching bands. ✌🏽 Noel~ W2MSA

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Hi Noel, I like that idea just for the idea of making another antenna! Noted for the list. Do you have a particular model in mind you could share the plans to or reference?

[@w2msa]

KG6HQD Jerry I don't have any at the moment but the other antenna you can construct is a half wave end fed antenna which a lot of people like running for portable use. There's a lot of information on how to construct one on the internet. At the end of the day there's nothing like a single band resonant antenna and the fact that you're using a twin lead feed line even better.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Very true Noel and I do have stuff and plans for an EF version with a 9:1 unun if I recall that many SOTA guys use. Maybe I’ll make that just for fun next.

[@w2msa]

KG6HQD Jerry Just remember Jerry that the 9:1 is technically a random wire where the HWEF is theoretically a resonant antenna. So rather than a 9:1 use a 49:1 or 64:1. Look up the end fed half wave antenna group on Facebook, there's a lot of good information there. Good luck and thanks again for all your effort.

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Yes that one 🤣. I have never built this particular one but have the plans somewhere to reference. I’d like to see how it does in a similar test since the naysayers are so against antennas like this yet they work well and that’s what matters in my opinion.

[@pacset2]

Nice radio OM Survivor ham approved 73 OM W6KLE

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

thanks OM lol - btw, those island shots look good

[@pacset2]

Copy

[@forgetyourlife]

1st Tim then Tony, who will be next to delete all their work so nobody can watch and learn from it?

[@KG6HQDJerrySOTA]

Ya, not sure but hopefully not many more. YT is an animal unto itself for sure so I can understand in many ways why.