Kickstarter vs. Pre-orders

TotalBiscuit brings you an explanatory video debating the popular issue of kickstarting vs pre-ordering games.
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Game in the background is FTL: Faster than Light

[@promero14]

Kickstarter should have a black list of develeopers with names...

[@rednex1989]

not like people just make up new studios

[@Nathankinamorh]

For kickstarter you are an "Investor". Pre-ordering is just a blind consumer purchase.

[@Monstercasst]

I still miss you. I often wonder how many others are looking at your back catalog of videos and how relevant they are today. You were and still are a part of my routine.

[@hitekredbricks]

I do that exact thing man.. Gamers and the games industry in general miss TB badly these days. I do hope he’s in a better place and at peace now. Rest easy Biscuit

[@Dowlphin]

9:30 That's probably one of the main problems with Kickstarter on both ends: The misconception that Kickstarter contributions are donations. It might in effect be like that in praxis, but it shouldn't be. Of course there's no guarantee for success, but as you mentioned earlier, there is responsibility. Because if there are no mechanisms in place to supervise a project's progress, then confidence tricks would be even more encouraged. You could just fake a project, tell that unfortunately it failed due to various issues, when in fact you just took the money and spent it for your own pleasure.

[@joealesia2564]

Both pre-ordering and kickstarting is throwing your money away. Kickstarting isn't any less risky in fact i'd argue it is more. No one should pre-order under any circumstances but kick starter funding is ok is where you lost me. There is a huge issue with game funding particularly with the lack of projected 'release dates'. Some have stayed in alpha/ beta indefinitely. I think your video does provide good information about realistic expectations when thinking about funding a project. Some are just as under handed showing prototypes of what look to be fully fleshed out games but are still in the concept phase.

[@Onidraug1]

Now do Kickstarter v Pre-order v Early Access?

[@latohavoc6075]

Anything that goes up against big game companies is a good idea. I have gotten a few games funded on KS and love it, though it does have many problems now that it has expanded in bad areas.

[@Alzorath]

Kickstarter to me is donating towards someone's dreams or ideas - I always look at it on 2 levels: 1. What reward tier I would want should the project be completed, 2. How much can I spare to help someone pursue an idea I can willingly support. Some projects I think would be good for the environment, but only have a passing interest in, get a small donation (like Balrum), while others that I'm exceptionally interested in seeing enter the wild, I invest much more in (like Hex)

[@duck74UK]

Next car game failed yet they went on to make a playable alpha and then a steam early access edition

[@Cashman882]

I backed them on their site and i love the game! Frequent updates, lots of news, good support team etc. I have been burned before on backing and preorders, so are pretty happy with Next Car Game. GO BUY!

[@1gamesforyou]

Cashman882 Very true

[@popat997]

The only games I'm glad I pre-ordered are The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

[@SAKKEMANN]

I am happy for trying to buy a copy of X-COM two days too early, ended up pre-ordering and got it 10e cheaper, WITH the customization pack.

[@botbot-mm2tg]

I guess thats a early version of FTL cause the ships not green in my game...

[@radip]

Once the devs get the money, there is no incentive to work hard on the game, my opinion

[@JOHNNYLAW514]

TB, the only guy i can listen too while simultaneously getting my work done. I really enjoy these. While I don't always agree with you (I do here) I always enjoy listening to your opinion and how you came to it. Signed - the silent majority.

[@TomJerry12933]

uhhh... the idea with pleaging is that the developers dont have the necessary money to program the game "NOW". they cant make the game and get the money later... they need it "NOW"... and with pledges ... they can get it "NOW"

[@Dawnofdreams64]

Yeah, then when game devs squander that money. Have fun =)

[@tjalfe1234567]

I think the desire to do logical leaps and gymnastics is perfectly fine and noble.. It's also what was known in a by-gone age as intellectual discussions. A discipline TB should appreciate, being the gentleman he undoubtedly is.

[@Crozula]

I am so glad you did this video, too many people seem to think backing a kickstarter project is the same thing as pre-ordering. Honestly, its a problem that is starting to bleed into the minds of even a few devs...

[@liorean]

There are three different kinds of Kickstarter game campaigns: - Game development proposals such as Doublefine's Broken Age and Massive Challice; You basically provide venture capital to the dev for salaries and running costs. What it really offers is insight into and some influence on the development of the game. - Game finishing; Basically you pay for a copy with no effect on it. - Game extensions; Kickstarters to fund additions to a game that is already released or far along the dev cycle.

[@SilverSeraphym]

The more transparent you are with your projects, the more people will be satisfied that they are making a good decision by providing you with the funds you are being honest with them in how you are using them.

[@1Invinc]

Maaaaaaan, didn't notice before but having FTL's music in the background is really very soothing. ^_____^

[@Hadgerz]

Exactly right. TB constantly repeats the 'buyer beware, only if you really want to see the project succeed!' Eg: look at the kickstarter project for the smartphone called the Ubuntu Edge, with a 720p display (so 2011), 128gb storage, and 4GB of RAM, that dual boots ubuntu desktop and Android...and the minimum you must currently contribute is $775. Crazy thing is: if they don't get 32million dollars in a month nobody gets the phone. People have raised 7mill so far...it's extreme buyer beware.

[@ModestAlmighty]

Interesting way to phrase it. I would have said it's based on the idea that the more informed you are as a consumer, the better, and that pre-ordering is usually an emotional response stemming from brand loyalty, fanboyism and successful marketing. Kickstarters, are supposed to be risky. You're donating money to a game in the development stage. But when you make an actual purchase, the smart consumer makes sure his risk is as close to zero as possible.

[@FPSGamer48]

Totally respect your opinion; I only ever pre-order games I 100% know I'd get anyway (GTA V, AC IV, Saints Row IV, Destiny, etc) and I totally respect your opinion. Keep on making your amazing videos, TB!

[@verynotsuspicious]

Just makes me chuckle that someone actually needed an explaination why kickstarter is different from pre-order ;d Nice to hear your thoughts as always Mr.Biscuit.

[@SilverSeraphym]

This is an extremely good video! People need to get the idea out of their heads that Kickstarting makes you an investor. It doesn't. Kickstarter is a very useful and unique thing for gaming projects, I think it will keep going, and kick back up, it's just that people have been rushing for it and thinking that it is a sort of store. Hopefully the proper mindset is established, and it becomes a more stable platform.

[@OverbearingUrge]

Not sure about UK law, but in the USA you can seek that the defendant's wages be garnished to repay any debts. This means that any future income they make, a percentage of that will be required to be put into paying restitution. So, even if someone is broke and you sue them for monetary damages, you might not get all of the money back, but you can attempt to get that money back and potentially get some of it back.

[@TFHDeathUA33]

That's a big difference. A preorder is for a game that is going to be release whether or not you pay for it beforehand. A kickstarter is given to a game that may very well not be released if it doesn't meet a donation level. He's saying that kickstarting is risky but it has a reward(a game that might not be made and that you want it to) but that preordering has no rewards(maybe some kind of small sale price or a digital item) but carries a huge risk as most negative reviews are after release.

[@Jakemisterful]

I love how thought through all of your, 'rants' (in a good way) are, it is always quite nice to listen to a very informed view. -Coming from an aspiring dev

[@leondelafonte]

Fair enough, I see your point. Personally I don't pre-order, but I do think pre-ordering is a perfectly good way to purchase a game. If you're excited for it and you want to play the latest games ASAP ain't nothing wrong with reserving a copy that'll come with extra bits & bobs. A Colonial Marines pre-order situation happens so rarely, you can't completely dismiss an entire purchasing practice because of a few bad apples. Heck, at least people got to experience that awful game.

[@TheCrookedMoon]

There is a pretty substantial difference between the two actually as TB said.. One you're essentially acting as an investor with some added incentives for something that doesn't even exist yet and has a chance it could fail to even make launch, while the other is buying a product that is for all intents and purposes done and dusted. In essense the difference is the risk involved and if you go in thinking of kickstarter as a pre-order service you're asking for potential disapointment.

[@AngelOfCake]

why in the fuck is someone that is considered "amateur hour" actually providing answers to one of the most important gaming industry's questions so lowly rated. TB keep up the good work. You're only respected by a minority now. You will be the authority in years to come. I'm glad I'm here to see you rise.

[@speedfreakpsycho]

I just cant believe that this biscuit never did wtf of Psychonauts. It was in humble bundle, but he actually didn't review it!--damn it is pretty much still one of the best games i ever played, and one of the most underrated games out there.

[@thomasprice9256]

Preordering doesn't make things happen, but has a money-back guarantee. Kickstarting allows games (and genres!) that would never have happened to have a chance, but it is only a chance and the money is spent in the effort whether it works out or not. Great video, highlighting the dangers but also going through the benefits of Kickstarter.

[@Drain_Life_Archive]

As usual TB hit the nail right on the head. People are treating Kickstarter as a store. If you want a store, wait for the game to actually come out then preorder or buy it. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store service. It's you donating money for a project. They promise you stuff, usually the game itself, in return for doing that, but if the project flops, you most likely won't get that investment back.

[@TheBoundFenrir]

The way i took it is "If you use kickstarter, you are donating money to a thing you want to exist and hope that it does. There is a risk, but if you care about the idea, it MAY be worth it. If you pre-order, you are committing to buying the game that WILL exist, whether or not the game is actually any good when it comes out. This is a bad move." and then he explains his own criteria for what kind of kickstarter is worth backing if your going to use kickstarter at all.

[@Duckie-hehehe]

I agree with you about kick starter. I kick started Wasteland 2 and only because it has a reputable developing team. They send out newsletters to keep us up on how the game is coming along and if they're on time and if they're having problems.

[@TheSPACECOWBOY33]

If the person running the kick-starter is good and reliable you can get some neat stuff as well as a game for a price of a retail game. People need to use their wits before pledging. It's sad people abuse it somtimes but im glad it exists I have seen some beautiful things come out of kickstarter.

[@Chubzdoomer]

That's why I put "investment" in quotations. You know exactly what I'm saying: You're gambling with your money when you pay for a game that hasn't yet been released and therefore hasn't yet been reviewed or evaluated by anyone. For all you know, it could not only live up to expectations but also be incredibly buggy/unstable.

[@cool140000]

Personally, the two projects I've funded on Kickstarter have left me pleasantly surprised. I was an early backer of the Gustin jean company and I recently pledged for a copy of Soul Saga, where we get to bounce gameplay ideas back and forth with the dev during streams.

[@budthespud3226]

Yeah I have to agree with you TB. When it comes to kickstarter it is essentially like playing the stock market. You are putting an investment down and hoping for a happy return on said investment. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. So I'd say only invest if you have the money to burn, and you're okay with taking a gamble. Just don't cry about it when it fails.

[@NinjaNezumi]

These copies are then NON-RETURNABLE copies purchased by the Corporation. That means the Dev (Or Publisher) who makes that benchmark has just sold extra copies which won't be returned via the warehouse due to their pre-order deal with the retailers. The games which have huge Pre-Orders are given special attention by reviewers and extra promotion, that's money in the pocket via advertising. This is similar to a "Bestseller List" and how it operates for books.

[@AprilsMoon92]

The few things I have to see before I even consider about backing something on kickstarter are: 1. Demo (or super in depth about the game like what Armikrog did, or a trailer for the game that contains actual gameplay and/or cutscenes to know the people are serious). 2. Breakdown in pricing. 3. The companies reputation I do disagree with one of the preorder things though. With console games usually preordering games costs just as much as new AND it shows how many games a store might order...

[@CardinalPiggles]

I certainly agree that Kickstarter and pre ordering are not entirely mutual. But surely stretch goals ARE. Stretch goals are there to line the developers pocket with spare change prior to release, so that they may add things to their game. But pre orders do the exact same thing. We've seen stretch goals for pre ordering certain games like Tomb Raider. Personally I wouldn't take the chance on kickstarter, but if I did, I wouldn't back a project once it's initial goal was reached.

[@KRX_]

I don't need to watch this video, but I will shortly. The difference is kickstarters you get the game DISCOUNTED and support the development by actually, A: making the game real and B: expanding the scope of the game. Pre-orders: You get a free in game gun or costume at the risk of your FULL price purchase. Most games that even pump for pre-orders are over priced short ass triple A games that should only be bought in the bargain bin.

[@VoreTechz1985]

You are probably right. Costs will be at their highest ever to produce AAA titles and will require massive sales to turn a profit. But there will be incredible interest in games now. Sales will also be higher than they have been for the last 5-6 years. It could go either way. It depends on the cost to sales ratio. We're already seeing many developers go tits up.

[@ThatepicpinkkiD]

I personally view both as follows: -Kickstarter puts you in the shoes of the business man or investor. You have a predetermined goal to fund an operation you believe will sprawl into a flowering bouquet of awesome. For better or for worse the market is a bitch. You have nothing to do but stick with your opinions and hope for the best. -Pre-ordering puts you in the shoes of the consumer. You know mostly what you're buying into and you do it anyway. Also you can get your money back in the end.

[@Shaidon7]

Some people pre-order a game with the excuse of supporting the developer, because they were pleased by what or who is related to it, but also getting something in return. Won't be smart if you deny to get these little things that come with pre-order just to prove a point. I enjoy Saints Row 3 that I bought when it was in discount, so I won't bother to show my appreciation by pre-order SR4 and also get some goodies.

[@CURSEDSei]

Actually, they never intended to do the board game, at least solely. Erik Chevalier, the guy running it, was just interested in starting up a company, which Kickstarter forbids. So he used the game as a way to sidestep that rule. He also has some major history in terms of failing in financial management. All the money earned would of gone into the company, with whats left for the board game. The actual designer and artists for the game, on the other hand, had no clue that it was even canceled.

[@seirathdein530]

the problem is that the embargo is usually lifted extremely late if the game is bad so reviews cant be published, also kickstarting and pre-ordering are completely different, pre-ordering is the same as buying except you do it with out as much info as after launch but you get a bonus of some kind, kickstarting is pledging money for the development itself. so if you don't pre-order and wait for the game it still come out you just lose the bonus if you don't kickstart the game might not come out.

[@ModestAlmighty]

When you donate money to a kickstarter, there is an understand that whatever project you funded might not get off the ground. Most of the gifts they offer are obviously conditional on the release of the game. You'll actually find that a lot of donation platforms offer gift based incentives to entice people to pledge money. Getting a poppy for giving money to the VFW, getting a new annex named after you for giving money to a hospital and everything in between.

[@Devver08]

@ etheldir my point is that people's problems with pre-orders blossomed from the whole alien colonial marines fiasco which (most will say) was not what they expected. As TB stated, you've no guarantee the kickstarter will A. Even be built to completion or B. Be any good at all. Both marketing schemes are not giving you enough information to truly determine if a game is a good fit for you and is a gamble in *both* instances.

[@liorean]

Sure you get a copy, when/if the game is finished, but it's not about that. You are a venture capital provider. There is no promise that it will finish or, if it finishes, that it will be any good. The closer to finished it is when you fund it, the more likely it is that you will get a copy of a finished game. If you see Kickstarters with demos or alphas, you are more likely to eventually see a game / get your hands on it. Something like Doublefine you pay for development process insight.

[@teppest11]

I just played Shadowrun, One best storyline I've played through recently, Nice art style full character, I glad for Kickstater for brining that old school RPG game back, I wish I was able to be one ones that kick started it, but I'm a broke college student again. I glad to see more game in style Baldur gate or fallout coming out, make this old computer gamer happy and we got Kickstarter to thank for that.

[@CommanderLink]

now you've got me playing FTL again, thanks TB. lol. but i like your videos like this. always good to be informed

[@KerianH]

Personally I hope that Kickstarter projects like Colossal Kaiju Combat come out. There's a lot of projects that are great ideas that people have started that could use the money. We need good games like those in this world.

[@ModestAlmighty]

Great Question! Because again, they're two completely different thing. Pre-ordering is a way to purchase a product. And it's a bad way to purchase a product, compared to your other options. Unlike waiting until the game comes out, pre-ordering gives the consumer no real information about the quality of the game, or if it's going to work correctly. You could be buying a buggy, boring mess, compared to digital download, brick and mortar or having something shipped AFTER its been released....

[@youngthinker1]

If the only issue was people not estimating their cost effectivily for games, then you just realize the biggest issue with programming stuff in general. Even the simplest ideas and programs take alot longer then most people realize. I am speaking from a bit of experience as I wrote a simple text based adventure with a simplestic combat system and easy to use map. Took me several days and lots of help (insight on how to write important classes) before I got a prototype. Still developing it.

[@Pattoe]

Neither of those options are funding the game's development though. The poster i was replying to said a kick start can cost $100,000 to make a game but a pre-order can cost $1 to make a game. Basically he compared the price of CREATING AN ENTIRE GAME to the price of a customer pre-ordering a game.

[@CameraBlack]

TB you should do more debating videos,it's interesting and everyone likes to hear your thoughts too.

[@ModestAlmighty]

It's completely different and if, as a consumer, you don't see the difference, then that is your problem. When you donate to kickstarter, you are spending money to help develop a game, not to purchase the game. Your donation may give you access to certain incentives, including a copy of that game if it actually becomes a reality, but that's just a gift they use to entice you to donate. (cont...)

[@TheKriptikGamer]

Very true. They are very different things. Though there is no issue on my side of things where I buy a kickstarter funded game that has released and has gained positive reception from gamers, FTL is a perfect example of this and the recently released Shadowrun Returns looks interesting as well. It's nice to see devs not have to deal with publishers but its not good seeing promises go empty and games never coming out. The nature of Kickstarter and even Indie GoGo is quiet a dark & mysterious one.

[@TheVollcane]

I like how you both pay attention to the video.

[@JayDragon7]

It actually makes a lot of sense to look for the good reviews, because it is easy to see the bad. Not so easy for the good. If someone actually likes a game, they must have a personal reason that will tell you a lot more than the mainstream bad opinion. Hate spreads faster than love, so looking for reasons to like a game is far more worth your time and will really make you think if it is worth the experience. And if the good reviews don't convince you, there you go.

[@seirathdein530]

difference is if you don't pre-order the game still comes out exactly the same as if you would and you can just buy it after launch when you have more info. on the other hand if you don't pledge to kickstarter the game might never come out. you over simplified it and didn't take into account that if people don't kickstart then the game is likely never to come out so there's actually a point to kickstarting even if its a risk since there's a reword as well

[@Plutonia001]

Carmageddon raised way above its goal of a few hundred thousand, and got an anonymous donation of several million dollars for console releases. The developer immediately showed their working prototype, and have been steadily showing new assets that have been produced.

[@Mriswith2k]

Even if some of the production studios failed horribly (it happens in all business and was doomed to happen in this case as well) the main issue is that people just fail to understand how the system works and that the risk of failure always exist. I've participated in a failed project as well but did that stop me from kickstarting more projects? NO because I knew it was going to happen at the outset. There are "safe" projects of course, but anything can and might fail, that's just how it is.

[@Torruun]

Thanks for the suggestions, TB. As a person looking to get into game developing in the future, I will certainly keep what you said about kickstarters in mind if I decide to crowd-source a project, which, I probably will at some point.

[@osscorrupt]

You tell em Man! been watching your videos for years! Loved the video

[@lobete]

Most of the qualities you use to define how paying for a preorder differs from paying into a kickstarter applies to both preorders and kickstarters. Sight on scene money is fronted based on biases marketing material and minimal information, minimal to no benefits, you still risk becoming driven by confirmation bias and ignore negative publicity that would lead you away from the purchase. The only difference from that list is that the preorder game is going to release.

[@ScarredFrost]

you are truly youtube's #1 game critic. nice video.

[@Foxcheese]

So far I've only backed 6 projects, and in every case it was a project that a) I really wanted to see and b) They already had something to actually show. I think too many things come to kickstarter in a concept or even pre-concept stage when the concepts are not really fleshed out. For the record, the projects I've backed are Dreamfall Chapters Distance Freedom Planet Sir, you are being hunted Maia and Strike Suit Zero As you said, a prototype is perhaps the bet thing to include.

[@etheldir128]

@Devver08 it's not idiotic because he's saying you can throw disposable money at games you would like to see made on kickstarter but with preordering the game is (almost) definitely coming out already so there's no need to pay for it early as either way it will still come out and so you may as well wait for it to be released so you can read its reviews. This option isn't available for kickstarter games as it probably won't come out if no one throws their money at it.

[@LilianOrchard]

That's assuming he has a high-powered PC. That also assumes he wants to use Steam in the first place.

[@liorean]

No, the money is pledged, not removed from your account until the project actually ends successfully. When Forge failed no money was drawn from my account and instead they offered another support option for pledges.

[@blazingbulbasaur5993]

mighty no9 goal was $900,000 it reached $4.2million

[@DarkKnightMorgan]

It is at this point I would like to state if your income is inconsistent and you are spending money on either of these things you're risking your own financial well being to do this. It doesn't matter if one is better than the other, that is irrelevant, if you are in a job with inconsistent income (private contractors like plumbers for example) and you're willing to blow all of your money not needed to eat on either of these potentially you're setting yourself up for failure.

[@evanjungclaus7975]

Also love your vids man! :) very informative and as always very funny! Keep up the Starcraft live streams...haven't seen one in a while.

[@leondelafonte]

"You have no reason to believe the product will be good or work properly" Agreed!! But again, the exact same can be said about ANY Kickstarter projects. PLUS with kickstarter you're not even ever guaranteed an end product. Kick starter is in fact a worse deal for any consumer than Pre-orders ever will be (and YES, technically speaking Kickstarting & Pre-ordering are both investments). It's hypocritical to support one yet criticise the other when they are ultimately similar.

[@1Invinc]

I think ultimately, it doesn't matter how you decide to purchase your games. Preference and methods to determine if you'd like that game doesn't really matter. What matters is that you purchase a game that WORKS.

[@NadavNevo883]

I just want to bring up 2K's quite excellent pre-orders. I'm only basing this on the Steam pre-orders of the two XCOM games (and Bioshock Infinite, I think?), but their pre-order bonuses are usually something like another one of their games. Which is pretty awesome. They are also pretty good at showing their games before they actually come out (they showed countless footage Enemy Unknown being played) and letting game reviewers give their opinions in advance.

[@clai83]

When I look at reviews I generally look at the bad stuff first, and of course ignore trolls, and rage. If I'm still interested after that then I go forward.

[@seirathdein530]

the point is that once you make up your mind most people try to look for reasons as to why they are in fact correct rather then actual criticism so they end up looking at/believing the better reviews.

[@doltBmB]

I'd say you are an investor. You don't get money out of it but you typically get the product and some form of reward tier out of it. You invest your money hoping for a return on it in the form of a product.

[@crystallyx]

In my view, the difference between pre-orders and kickstarters is very simple and hopefully I can show you it. You can always just wait until the game comes out instead of pre-ordering. Nothing will change. You can't bring that same mindset of pre-orders to kickstarter. If you plan on just waiting til the kickstarter is over then the developers might not get enough money, and without the money the product is gone.

[@LastTalon]

No, I don't because I don't agree that whether or not you purchase a game should be based on the publisher or reviews of a game as much as your own opinion of a game based on the information provided about it such as genre, description, theme, style, etc. When purchasing games I prefer to think for myself. This does mean that I rarely will purchase a game that I don't fully enjoy, but more often than not I'm satisfied with my purchases because I buy them based on what I like, not what other say.

[@ModestAlmighty]

I made the point a few posts back. "words mean things". I was trying to explain to you the difference between making a purchase and donating to a developer. I eventually got you to see my point. I'm not quite sure what I could have left out and still manage to lead you there.

[@ModestAlmighty]

You often get things through a donation. Anything from a Poppy on memorial day, to a wing being named after you in a hospital.

[@codydot]

6:14 i could totally imagine a mini TB read reveiws and making a "Not In My House" face when i read a disliking comment and i smiled

[@BlueBloodPenn]

I dont need people to tell me if a game is good or not before I buy it. The last game i bought after preordering was The Last of Us, it was not a mistake. its nothing like mailing a cheque. it only requires you to pay £5 to reserve the game, thats it. even if you decide when the time comes not to buy it then you are only out £5, big woop. and if you do buy it then you are only paying the normal price anyway. its exactly the same as if you went straight to the store and bought it on launch

[@Pyke64]

When a game is discounted, Valve gets less too. So if a game is 49.99 $, Valve gets 30% off that and if a game is discounted to 7.5 $, Valve gets 30% off 7.5. And also, it does seem a lot but before DD a big cut was going to retail stores and shipping, etc...

[@Heartlesslink100]

Obviously you can take back your pre-order of a game. It is just more likely for someone to buy a game that is pre-ordered especially if you have those bonuses, it is a psychological effect. When you kick start something there is no refund option, no real way to hold the person or company responsible for not delivering on a product they 'intend' to make.

[@solarbear26]

TB I'm glad you mentioned the MetaCritic trap. I've suffered from that before more times than I'm proud of.

[@anthonybotz9428]

I would never consider donating on Kickstarter to be a purchase. I see it as a donation to help develop a game that shows promise. Investment results, most frequently, in a free copy of the game if/when it is complete. If the project falls apart, well that sort of thing happens. I would only think about pursuing legal action if the money was not used in the efforts of the production of the product I supported.

[@MaKaRoV9mm]

In the US, a good but not ridiculous laptop is around 400-500 dollars. which is comparable both next gen consoles. console games cost more. console controllers cost more. I honestly feel its worth switching to PC if you can afford an $800 equivalent PC and understand that multiplayer for multiplatform games won't be as good on PC at least until it appears more accessible. I'm hoping it keeps growing as a possibility for people. Its not for everyone but PC gaming has its benefits as do consoles:)

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

Honestly, I know the differences between pre-ordering a near-finished game and kickstarting one that may not even come out. I can see why people would Kickstart something, but I'd rather sit back and watch. When I want to pre-order a game, I make damn sure I research it as much as I can (not so much reviews as seeing actual gameplay videos, because I could give less of a shit about IGN or Gametrailers reviews, for example) before doing so, so I know I'll get a copy of it one day one.

[@TheKriptikGamer]

Whether it's an indie game or a full AAA budget game, I'm always gonna prefer pre-ordering than kick starting. Simply because i'm guaranteed in getting a game with my money. Even if it's a 10% discount on the steam store pre-ordering it still supports the dev as their getting money from your purchase of their game. Also with all the media coverage on games today its harder and harder to make a bad purchasing decision unless its like the Aliens fiasco or you just plain ignore the media coverage.

[@ainumahtar]

A guy I know is from Denmark (Taastrup near Copenhagen), and he just told me (literally 5 minutes ago) that if you can't buy a 500$ PC that does the same as consoles at the moment you're doing something really wrong. Sure you won't be able to buy a pc that outruns the nextgen consoles for that money, but they also haven't been released yet, and neither have games for it, and if you get a 500$ pc now and upgrade it for half that a few months after nextgen releases you'll be able to play np

[@Lkjhgf5482]

Most of the people here forget that a "bad" game can still be a fun experience, which is really what matters, making it a good game to the player because it appeals in a way. Technically balanced mechanics also make the game appealing as well, but that might appall you from fun experience by creating a learning curve for a game that may not provide total interest to everyone that plays it.

[@dodeadson]

The trouble is, your thinking about it entirely as a consumer. The main purpose of kickstarter is to INVEST in a project, with a copy of completed project + bonuses being the return for the investment. The ONLY reason anyone should pledge money towards a project on kickstarter is if they want to invest in the game, not if they just want to pre-order it.

[@DePhoegonIsle]

Mixed honestly, but when it came down to it, it also shows steam there is support there as well. There is more then 1 company that needs to be shown there is interest. What other better what to pre-order a game that's genre hasn't gotten enough official backing for steam to pick It up more often then once and a while as an odd indie project. *There is enough issues with Greenlight as is*

[@liorean]

Oh, there's another aspect of "fail" here - if the project gets funded but not actually manages to produce it's supposed product. Sorry about my confusion about that.