King vs Gibson - Qibla Dilemma EP.1

Dr David King (79 yrs old and considered the world authority on the Qibla) wrote a paper against Dan Gibson in 2019 concerning his research on the differing early Qiblas, because much of what Gibson found confronts most of what King has taught for years.
Gibson, who between 1979 - 2004 spent his time amongst the Bedouin in Arabia and Jordan went personally to find the Qiblas of all the earliest mosques. He did this because he was initially interested in why so much of the geography in the Qur’an didn’t make sense; such as referring to the prophet having daily contact with people from Thamud 24 times, the people of Ad 23 times, and the people of Midian 7 times, yet they all lived 600 miles too far north of Mecca, where the prophet was living.
Gibson noticed that according to the Qur’an and to the Islamic Traditions, where this prophet lived was in a valley, had streams, and fertile fruits, and olive trees, all of which doesn’t exist in Mecca.
So, he went to all of these places in Arabia to investigate these problems and wrote the book entitled ‘Qur’anic Geography’ in 2011.
In his travels he came across many ancient ruins of mosques. While looking at them he found that they all had Qibla walls (always the longest wall, in order to accommodate the many people who prayed in a long straight line, which faced towards a sanctuary), yet the earliest ones were all facing Petra, in Jordan and not Mecca.
The Qur’an in Surah 2:148-150 says that the Qibla should be towards Mecca (according to the later Islamic Traditions), but the Qur’an doesn’t say Mecca, but merely says to face the ‘al Masjid al-Haram’ (the place of bowing towards that which is forbidden).
Because these earliest Qiblas are not towards Mecca, Gibson wrote his book entitled ‘Early Islamic Qiblas’ concerning his research on the earliest Qiblas. His research included his trips to over 100 mosques. There he took the coordinates of all these Qibla walls using the Astra satellites (the most accurate measurements which we can use today).
Initially, he found that most of these mosques were facing a multiplicity of directions; yet, none of the earliest Qiblas were facing Mecca, which goes against both the Qur’an and the Islamic Traditions.
One would possibly think that the reason for these various directions was that they were simply ignorant and didn’t know how to face a city which was thousands and hundreds of miles away.
David King got a hold of Gibson’s book to critique it. He himself only went to one mosque to investigate its Qibla in his lifetime. Thus, no one had done the work Gibson had done. When King read the book, he got very angry and decided to write a quite emotional response. It is that response by David King against Dan Gibson which we will now turn to in our next episodes.
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[@bilalawan1371]

Everybody is missing something big here. Its strange that everyone thinks of Qiblah only as the direction towards which Muslims pray 5 times a day. Hence all the debate on directions of mosques. Why everyone keeps forgetting that Muslims also bury their dead facing the Qiblah. I am sure the number of mosques are very very less as compared to number of Muslim graves. Why not look at the graves of muslims from early era. Mosques have been reconstructed in history but the graves remain as they are. Look into the direction of muslim graves and the truth will be revealed.

[@niceguy968]

Good point 👍brilliant brain

[@_psychopath_5623]

Even some early mosques face petra

[@munawaralias8980]

This debate still making rounds?? Christians are so desperate.. 😂🤣😂

[@xurshidbro3670]

I saw a video of Dan Gibson about the direction of graves. You can search it on KZbin.

[@munawaralias8980]

@@xurshidbro3670 I saw a video of Dan Gibson comprehensively debunked. You can searched it on KZbin.

[@dpshukla7835]

It does not matter whether king is a good or bad scholar the matter is whether his findings are based on any solid evidence or not

[@Endtime-dh9lk]

Dan Gibson does not have a PhD, is not well known in the academic community, *I'd rather be an amateur who gets it right than a professional who gets it all wrong*

[@Endtime-dh9lk]

@@CIRAInternational No worries brother. Please read my post again.

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@CIRAInternational i think you are extracting the opposite meaning to that intended. He seems to be saying hecwould rather be a non PhD amatrur like Gibson who gets it right than an internationally renowned professional academic who gets it wrong. I am reminded of the christian scholars who said it was not necessary to look through galileos telescope to cpnfirm phases of venus or mountains on the moon because they alread knew galileos measurements could not be correct because it contradicted the agreed view on what the bible ststed.

[@bartconnolly6104]

@irishxxkelt and galileo was reviewed by the top Vatican scholars.

[@CIRAInternational]

Brother, @Endtime2016 My team did not treat you well. I will see to it that this doesn’t happen again. I will remove their comment. However, I want to extend my apology to you. They must not have read your comment correctly. I can understand what you meant by it. At any rate, I’ll handle it. Thank you for your interaction. Blessings. ~ Al Fadi

[@CIRAInternational]

Bart Connolly you are correct... my team sadly did not... I deleted the comment and apologized to the author of the comment..,

[@jace7190]

Excited about this new series! Interesting!

[@Maria-du9mf]

King called Gibson's work "amateurish". He meant it as an insult, but the true meaning of amateur is, 'one who works out of love'. Dan Gibson is an amateur in the noblest, truest sense of the word. He has labored out of passion and love, for decades. His work is revolutionary, staggeringly brilliant, and will resonate with anyone operating from a paradigm of logic and truth. King on the other hand, is trying to protect his world renown intellectual 'kingdom' wherein he is 'King' in his (somewhat stuffy) palace of academia. Get out into the field Dr. King, explore and enjoy yourself! Open mindedness keeps a person young with the thrill of learning and discovery. I wish this attitude for David A King. I wish him bravery to accept that he may have overlooked the importance of Dan Gibson's work and the humility to apologize. Dr. King has done great research for which he has been amply rewarded. He should not feel threatened and should welcome and even celebrate Dan Gibson's tremendous achievements, which are richly deserved and by no means easy to come by! Thank you, Dan Gibson, for your calm, firm, and dignified rebuttal to Dr. David A. King 's criticism. It was brilliant!

[@Li0nBar]

All these Dan Gibson versus videos are going to start a trend.

[@dkelley9661]

I am beyond thrilled at the wonderful, honest approach of this series! The topic is timely and urgent. Praise to all associated with this work. I have found Dan Gibson’s work to be extraordinary.

[@Reviewsinarabic]

Dan Gibson did his homework but he wasted his time because trust me he don’t make no sense and it is just theory and common sense u should know his intentions are bad

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars, the futuh Mecca, the Haj

[@amberfaith7790]

Love what you do guys , thanks for taking the time it's really important for us to know such ,may God bless you and provide for all your needs in Jesus name

[@jonnsmith180]

David King has seriously embarrassed himself with his Petra Fallacy essay. The essay is not only lacking in modern scholarship but also tries to insulate himself by calling others bigots and Islamophobes. It is long past time that King retire and remain silent on issue he does not understand.

[@jasonpalmer5437]

I bought Dan's book and find the evidence compelling. Thank you for your research in this area Dan. 👏

[@jasonpalmer5437]

His other book "Qur'anic Geography" is an excellent resource as well.

[@RM-fs8ub]

These days the words "world leading expert" might not mean exactly what they mean.... I think Dan Gibson has done his homework well. And he is unbiased due to the fact that it was something he stumbled upon and curiosity led him to a deeper search. Something I would have expected the "leading expert" to appreciate.

[@commentfreely5443]

after the sun set in a muddy pool, the moon rose, then it set in a muddy pool. mohammad dived into the pool with a hammer and chisel and split the moon. then allah glued it back together before people saw it rise again.

[@mmwosu]

Rose Margaret Very true, but Dr King’s ad hominem attacks on Dan Gibson are just symptomatic of a larger sentiment of leftist academic elitism in general. Non-Dr Gibson is not allowed to blaspheme against the word of a cloistered and robed high-priest of knowledge, even though he has done more leg work than said high priest ever has throughout an entire career. Nauseating pomposity....

[@AbdulQadir-sp9gc]

Christians say that early mosque in syria i.e. north arabia facing toward petra, but ignoring the fact that mosque in southern and eastern arabia facing toward mecca. Typical christian behaviour.

[@MattRockett]

Sir, I am trying to find episode 5 of the Qibla Dilemma. Can you help?

[@royindrasyah4446]

I don't understand. From this discussion Dan Gibson visited a lot of mosque all over the world,. He found out that the mosque direct not exactly to Mecca but some differneces direction. So he came to conclusion that Mecca is not in proper location. How could he came to that conclusion? In my opinion the differences of kibla in mosques especilally the old ones, came from the inaccurately of the equipment used to determine. For instance maybe they used a navigational compass. There was no GPS and satelite yet at the time the mosque were built. At least, they had a wiil to direct qibla to Mecca.

[@andanandan6061]

Grave of Prophet companion is facing Mecca not Petra.

[@adamelmasery7723]

Thinks Sir. God Bless you in Jesus Name

[@wurzelfix]

Remember: Heinrich Schliemann discovered Troy and was only completely laughed at. When he was still a school boy, he told his little girlfriend and she said: I believe in you ... that helped him to hold out. This is how new, unusual discoveries are made.

[@bartconnolly6104]

I suggest you read the??? of scientific discoveries i think by kuhn. In fact most science is done by clever people but the really breakthrough discoveries run against mainstream academics who oppose it.

[@bartconnolly6104]

Kuhn.... 1962 book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

[@wurzelfix]

@@bartconnolly6104 The most important thing is that we get out of this kind of "medieval" ignorance, not that we fight each other! Everyone should do what he can. Only the clear, pure truth puts Islam where it belongs. "Everything has already been said - just not by everyone!" (Karl Valentin, cabaret artist)

[@ihsanamsal2947]

What do you think of daily prayers and yearly hajj? I thought there were 4 gates in mecca while petra only have three...

[@bernice6867]

Haha, sorry I just desperately needed to make comment No 1001 , so epic. But I like your content as always🥰

[@phyllis9998]

King knows that Gibson's discovery challenges all his career's accomplishments. That must hurt but he's retired. In the interest of scholarship he should endorse this rather than have a fit.

[@pfarquharson1]

Gibson's findings has destroyed King's career. As you say King should endorse Gibson findings.

[@eljumaidilbinahmad2464]

Xemnu Titan, do not just swallow what Dan Gibson feed you. Gibson's discovery is not accurate at all. It is only manufactured. Here are some reasons for it. Firstly, Gibson has no authority in the field of archaeology. So, he is just tinkering around. Secondly, Gibson ignored the "narrative archaeology." This is because he is not a historion neither is Gibson an expert in Islamic studies. He cannot read the Qur'an, and the authentic Hadith and that is why he purposely ignored them both. Thirdly, he purposely missed out the "geographical archaeology" and the "physical archaeology" which are very important in the early history of Islam. Fourthly, Gibson's findings are not backed up with "authoritative findings" which make his claims more reliable.

[@ozjewel4672]

@@eljumaidilbinahmad2464 The argument from authority belongs in the field of dogmatics - very weak argument which carries no weight in judging documented scholarship

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@eljumaidilbinahmad2464 1 saying you have no authority is argument from authority a logical fallacy. If a mufti in saudi arabia says the haj doesent begin until people can see the cresent moon and you and hundteds of people can see it and produce photos of it but he doesent see it until two days later is he right and the cresent moon not visible because he has the authority to say so? He can ignore the entire population and the actual images?

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@eljumaidilbinahmad2464 2. You obviously didnt read gibsons second book... quaranic geography! He only arrived at the qiblas argument later. First he went through an analysis of places mentioned in the koran and where they were and what plants and geographic features they had. They are almost all near Petea not mecca or medina. They have olive trees which dont exist in arabia. They have two valleys connected bu a ravine with a river running through = petra not = mecca. Gibson only comes later to the qiblas.

[@TariqMehmood-ij4oo]

What about Quba Mosque, it was perhaps the first mosque of islam directing Macca

[@kfcheah5697]

An expert in the Qiblas does not know there are discrepancies in Qiblas directions in the different mosques? What an expert.

[@jabirrehman6458]

So whn we find the new qibla ia wat we gna mark it with the black stone? Maybe the one already in Mecca

[@MultiMark2]

May the true God bless both of you. Hallelujah!

[@libanali1626]

I was once asked in churge in ourope do you know halaluyah which language it is?

[@kingracho863]

The one who choose Kaaba as the direction of prayer is no other than UMAR BIN AL-KHATTAB...not Muhammad not Allah.so it means islam is false....sahih all bhukari 2:125

[@haroonhussein9770]

nonsense.

[@starmoviesalbab7453]

Be a good human being

[@muslimeen1930]

False as Jesus who never claimed he was God ?

[@muslimeen1930]

@Dilan Dsouza I did not a shred of evidence Jesus is God you should know

[@trueazseeker4925]

Where can I get Gibson's book in Nigeria?

[@sandytatham3592]

Dan Gibson's website has a lot of written information, plus you can download or order his books and films from there... thesacredcity.ca/buybooks.html

[@uncrown03]

This is nice view of a point finding the truth and investigate! Research must be done of any sort of all religion so we all know the truth!

[@paulbishop8119]

Why even debate! It is very simple get the book (20-30 bucks max) visit one or more quibla locations. 2 birds in 1 stone! See a new country and verify for yourself I am a christian and will definitely do that!

[@BlackDidThis]

Which is ironic in some way since it is stated very clearly in Surah Al-'Alaq that the first ever command given to those that are to follow the teachings of Islam was to "READ". Also since the rest of the Holy Book is literally filled with many commands to not only respect and search for the truth and knowledge... It also actually orders us to use our five senses that we are gifted in order to best understand the universe we are blessed to live in. When my son is old enough: I shall hopefully complete our Hadj with him as pedestrians (Albeit hitch hiking rather often) instead of taking a plane or dedicated bus... and I have now plans to visit Petra as well along the way. As you have very wisely stated: There is little chance of a loss but a win-win situation in contrast. I understand that many Muslims feel their faith threatened though Mr. Daniel is not actually saying "your belief is wrong".. He is simply claiming that like so many times throughout history humans have once more chosen "power" or "wealth" instead of what they were supposed to.. Especially when such an influential religion was the subject. This is sad in our case as the Kuran hints rather often that Allah is in our hearts (most famous verse is the 16th from the Surat Al-Kaf) and our actions. Not in buildings or wordly possessions. Have a great day my wise friend... May there be piece on you and yours.

[@Apkaa]

A better option just try to know which direction is Second Masajid Al Haram is facing it is from the time of Muhammad S.A.W. you will let to know the truth if you are looking for the truth

[@pinpoint3770]

the Christians are working together: that is good news!

[@rajdialnandram5676]

Roman Catholicism is predicted in the books of Daniel and the Revelation as Babylon or false Christianity. This church teaches against Chief just as the teaching teaching of Islam. God used Babylon to manners ancient Israel when it went astray . God then used the Romans to discipline the Jews when they rejected Christ . Then God used Islam to punish the pagan Christian Churches following the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church which was established in538AD and then went to dominate the Christian world for the next 1 260 years ending in 1 798 when the Pope was dethroned by Napoleon of France. All accurately predicted in the Bible. After the persecution by Islam the Christian Church continued in rebellion up to the R reformation when it began to reject the false Catholic teachings but still not completely. It is still holding on to the false Sunday Sabbath worship and eating haram .unlike what God approved by Moses. This time God will punish the church Himself when Jesus returns. Therefore the Caliphate will not rise again. Jesus Himself will be doing the punishing for all false worshipping to put an end to end forever. amen .

[@lerecklessbadger2411]

Against who?

[@afghankhijalat5620]

It’s not a fight between Christians and Muslims.

[@steinadleradler3431]

Commonly available compass even now a days has +/-2 degree of error. From 3000 miles away I actually might be facing Petra or Sanna. How could 100s of years older mosques be exactly pointing towards Kabba?

[@bhulbai27]

They use the stars boy

[@steinadleradler3431]

@@bhulbai27 how would they know where a building is relative to a star Mr.man.

[@steinadleradler3431]

@The Astronomer I am quite familiar with not only arab history but also star navigation . Star navigation is APPROXIMATE even to this day.Arab trade routes had also many land marks (mountains/wells/ settlements, sea cost etc). Even today you will find many mosques that are not pointing exactly to mecca. Using goole maps head to a far out place from Mecca and see for yourselves.!

[@engrtun]

20:20 absolutely wrong. If you find 10 mosques, facing EXACTLY same spot, it’s not their ignorance, lack of technology or anything. If you cannot find a reason, don’t say it was their lack of skill.

[@noman4021985]

Can someone tell me what tools or method the early Muslims used to work out the direction of Petra and how did they get it so accurately to Petra? What evidence is there that they intended to point towards Petra and they had the tools or methods to be able to do that? There are massive gaps in Dan Gibson's Research. The Most important mosque, the first mosque of the Prophet where he is buried himself points towards Mecca, I wonder why this information is omitted ?

[@pinpoint3770]

read his book Abdul, you are just asking questions a scholare like Gibson asks himself all the time

[@noman4021985]

if your so confident, please find me a link or a page number of his book which answers my questions above. THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: In the 6th Century, What methods / Calculations / Tools did the Muslims use to get their mosque directions?? IF DAN GIBSON DOES NOT HAVE THIS ANSWER, I'M AFRAID HIS WHOLE RESEARCH IS BASED ON CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES.

[@noman4021985]

@@pinpoint3770 There is a another Key Point which only 'a scholar like Gibson' will not mention. 250 Miles north of Mecca is Medina, where is the first Mosque built at the time of the Prophet PBUH and he himself is also buried there, this is the second most important mosque in Islam after Mecca. This Mosque is facing South to Mecca, not North west to Petra. Another critical information that Our Self Proclaimed Scholar has missed... In Islamic Tradition the Graves are set perpendicular to the Kaaba (Mecca) and the Body is turned to it's right to face the Kaaba. There is a really big grave yard (Jannatul Baki) right next to the Mosque in Medina, which has graves of the Prophet's (PBUH) Wives, childeren, family relatives and 10,000 of his Companions. Every single grave is perpendicular to the Kaaba (Mecca) in the correct orientation to allow for the body to be turned to the right facing the Kaaba (Mecca) Case Closed! Please don't let Gibson fool you

[@mister.punknow6639]

@@noman4021985 You can't just say "case closed". You didn't answer a tenth of the proof he gave. The mosque you mentioned in Medina has been rebuilt later on which is why its qibla is turned towards Mecca however archeologists found the older qibla and it is turned north towards what Muslims think is Jerusalem but what is, in light of Gibson's study, Petra. Or maybe you were talking about the Quba mosque which was actually built facing Syria (as reported in a hadith) when word arrived about the qibla's change all they had to do was to turn around so they would be facing Mecca (given that the hadith is true of course)

[@noman4021985]

@@mister.punknow6639 I think your confusing the different Mosques, I am talking about the second most important Mosque in Islam where the Prophet Muhammad Pbuh is Buried himself with his closest Companions and this Mosque has a Graveyard next to it, where most of his family and thousands of his Companions are buried, Are you saying that the orientation of the Graves was also changed later on? I doubt Gibson has even seen this mosque in Person. There is a fundamental problem with Gibson's Study. He has not provided evidence on How the Muslims determined the correct direction of a Mosque when building these mosques. The other Question is, did they Mistakenly get the directions wrong or intentionally wanted those directions? There is no evidence to answer the above questions from Gibson. The COMPASS was invented around the 11th Century. What methods were used in the 6th Century by the Arabs has not been answered by Gibson. Jay Smith's Answer is: 'The Arabs were pretty clever you know...' Jay Smith will even admit Arabs were pretty clever just to prove Gibson's Theory Until Gibson can show us how the Arab's Worked out the direction and how accurate that method was, everything that comes after is not necessary for me to answer. Did they simply Observe the Sun, Moon or Stars to determine the Direction, if so, How accurate is that? What ever methods used than were not accurate to today's standards. When i pray at home in London, I simply pray towards Southeast. I don't check the degrees of my angle. The Purpose of a direction is so that everyone in the Building prays in ONE direction rather than praying in different directions. When I Pray towards Southeast, I may be facing something else sometimes, It doesn't matter because God only needs to know my intention and that is more important than having the correct degrees of my direction.

[@marialuisaocan3816]

Qur an doesnt lie, dont be very excited, Allah will reveal the truth,

[@allistaircampbell9282]

That religious brainwashing works wonders on muslims.

[@wurzelfix]

Is there any literature about it?

[@pinpoint3770]

books of Dan Gibson

[@wurzelfix]

The most important thing is that we get out of this kind of "medieval" ignorance, not that we fight each other! Everyone should do what he can. Only the clear, pure truth puts Islam where it belongs. "Everything has already been said - just not by everyone!" (Karl Valentin, cabaret artist)

[@SS-qo3nt]

OOOHH! Can "storefront" mosques count too? *rubbing hands together excitedly*......

[@peacock69mcp]

A lot of people got PhD without much truth-compilation. David King is one of those. On the other hand, Mr. Dan Gibson, has lived in Arabian countries along with his family for 25 years and researched, taking measurements of every mosque that was ever built.

[@Ahmedkhaled-ct2be]

The measurements of the Joatha Mosque in Al-Ahsa were not taken. It is the second mosque built during the era of the Prophet, and its qibla goes to Mecca

[@andanandan6061]

He ignored fact that muslim also burried their deceased Family facing Mecca. He can't explain thousand of Prophet companion grave facing toward Mecca not Petra

[@nahdsaeed2068]

​@@andanandan6061 😂

[@nahdsaeed2068]

we don't find mentione Patra in our Islamic book or culture as house of Muslims only only Roman people lived there,we don't find argument about there is qubila there or Mohammed was born there ,we heard only Makkah &Juralism, so I believe that this coming from missionary people or or Orientalists way to take us a way from our religion, They think we are foolish bado illatered,we don't know about our book and golden Islamic culture in that time until now

[@thorandlundeve]

23:29 Not only mosques. Also cemetery

[@taj7210]

Ph. D is not the ultimate facts, but the investigation spirit is more important

[@kopeelampoong6464]

...soooo, if david king went to only one mosque out of the hundred or so that dan gibson examined, how does he maintain his title as "world expert on qiblas" - money, lies, and more lies?

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars, the futuh Mecca, the Haj

[@pauljosephbuggle3722]

Dan Gibson is not an academic and Dr. Jay's speciality is Apologetics. Dr. Jay is not an unbiased observer. This is not something we can gloss over. Gibson's conclusions have been refuted by other academics and by serious Muslims. Having seen quite a few of Dr.Jay's conferences, I find his attitude with regards the Bible and the Koran to be prideful and uneven in analysis. Evangelical Christians have to defend the Bible as unerringly true in a literal sense. Sola Scriptura rejected the tradition of the Catholic Church (Jesus didn't leave a book but a living Church and tradition). As a Catholic I would have sympathy with Muslin traditions and Muslim philosophy. Indeed, Islam has a deep and revealing philosophical body of work. Christians should be caring and respectful in their treatment of Muslims. Taking Gibson's controversial findings as pure truth and using it to hammer a nail into Islam is aggressive and offensive.

[@theastronomer5800]

I agree with what you say about Dr. Smith, however, which academics have refuted Gibson's work? I have only read the refutation by Dr. King, however, he does not actually address any of the data (that the mosques face Petra), instead he seems to attack Gibson personally and his conclusions (which are based on sound data, and backed by historical sources). It is true that Gibson is not an academic, but let's remember that not long about one did not need a PhD to do archaeology - if you had the drive and means to do so, you could explore and make some important discoveries. Also, I find it interesting that no Muslim archeologists have studied these mosques and published papers on their qiblas.

[@Apkaa]

Me being a muslim and Follower of Prophet i do welcome it but instead of blabbering they should come up with some concrete facts till now they haven't find a single masajid facing towards petra there are some Masajid which mistakenly built and a bit off from Qaaba but that doesn't mean Muhammad wasn't born in qaaba just because qibla was bit off while it was built just to inform you while we are travelling in trains we do pray on trains without knowing where qibla is anyways just wanna inform you

[@nadeemgodblessyoughauri3028]

Very nice sir.

[@paulellis5101]

When you talk to Dan Gibson, could you ask him his views on 2.149-150? It seems to me to make no sense that these verses would have been added to the Qur'an to refer to the proposed change of Qibla from Petra to Mecca since the strategy seems to have been to pretend that the qibla had been towards Mecca. Does Dan Gibson conclude that the qibla was at one stage (qibla 2?) towards Jerusalem and 2.149-150 changed it (back?) to Petra?

[@bartconnolly6104]

You hat it mixed up. Gibson doesnt siggest the koran stipulated a change from anywhere to somewhete elsem Gibson suggests muslims faced petra. The koran says mohammad lived nesr petra and that prsuer was all in one direction. MUCH LATER a century After mohammad a power struggle nin islam witnessed a new dynasty take over and these began toprompte mecca. A similar example would be that islam had different arabic korans with different meanings. Tradition even supports this idea. But MUCH MUCH LATER maybe in the 19th century or later islam started to claim not a dot or letter had changed and began destroying any contradictory evidence or changing ancient doccuments to try to make it look like their view was correct. It would not surprise me if they discoveref a qibla which pointed to petra that they would bulldose the archeology or concrete over it to hide the reality. Or construct a new mosque and pretend it was always that way.

[@paulellis5101]

@@bartconnolly6104 Thank you. I see that I mistyped and should have referred to 2.144 rather than 2.149-150. To me it seems clear that 2.144, especially reading the context of 2.142-143 involves a change to the qibla to al Masjid al Haram that the people it addresses were expected to find more pleasing. I would suggest that Mo probably started his religious mission praying to al Masjid al Haram (wherever that was), then 144 turns the qibla to al Masjid al Haram, meaning that it must have been somewhere else - and I see no reason to doubt that this was Jerusalem. So I wondered if Dan Gibson agreed that the qibla sequence was: 1st = A-M a-H (Petra) 2nd = Jerusalem 3rd = A-M a-H (Petra) per 2.144 4th = *New* A-M a-H (Mecca).

[@paulellis5101]

@@bartconnolly6104 BTW I notice that verse 2.144 does not appear in any of the 4 partial Qur'an manuscripts that have been radio carbon dated to be reliably pre-700 AD, so there is no reason to exclude the possibility that it was interpolated after 700, but I just don't see what purpose doing so would have served anybody.

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@paulellis5101 one purpose of interpolation is to establish a new regime. It happens all the time. Particularly in islam. They didnt follow feudal primogenitur. Quite often when a king or calif dies there is a bloodletting to establish a successor from the ruling family. Then when the new leader is established things settle down until he dies.

[@bartconnolly6104]

As far as i know and this is only a theory... Gibson posits Petra then a period where mecca began to be pushed as an alternative. People were not sure so they either pointed in a direction parallel to a line drawn from petra to mecca or pointed to a point midway between petra and mecca. A little over a century later the mecca faction won over the rest.

[@bartconnolly6104]

Dan Gibson is like a modern day Galileo

[@tajtagore4117]

woah there bart....

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@tajtagore4117 socially he is. He has produced totally original work in respect to petra being the kaaba which he discovered himself and developed through his observations. Meanwhile nobody for centuries had suggested Petra let alone demonstrated it by measurement.

[@tajtagore4117]

Bart Connolly so someone that ha recently came into this topic, how did dan Gibson debunk David Kings mathematical approach used in the 800s which is the same context mathematicians used back then. I’m not sure Gibson understood his conclusions because king was very aggressive towards him and completely ignored the margin of error in coordinates.

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@tajtagore4117 as far as i understand king assunes the Arabs of the 800s didnt have competent mathematics to make accurate measutements. This is in fact a theory from the 900s trying to explain how the early kiblas for 200 years were not facing meccs. The theory is some faced jerusale.m. Gibson shows BY MEASUREMENT the earliest ones faced PETRA NOT JERUSALEM. Then after some had one facing mecca there is a time they ACCURATELY face a non important point in the middle of tbe desert which just happens to be the mid point between petra and mecca! Eventually it seems the mecca faction won and they all faced there after that and they rebuilt mosques to face mecca. Not surprising as we can see they concrete over archaeology that doesnt fit, they burn whole libraries that dont fit their view and the earliest korans show they were altered to fit a viewpoint by writing over adding or erasing arabic words.

[@bartconnolly6104]

@@tajtagore4117 i suggest you rrsd gibsons work. King has only ever visited one thsts ONE ancient mosque and didnt even scientifically measure that AFAIK. kings argiment is based on OPINIONS at best 200 years after the events! Gibson actually measured over 100 ancient mosques! Actual data frpm when they were built showing where they faced! King tries to argue they ate all over the place. Gibson shows they arent. ALL the early ones face petra... For a century. Then DURING RIDDA WARS WITHIN ISLAMthere is a period of them facing either a point directly between mecca and petra OR a line parallell to the petra mecca line. So ONLY FOUR not many different directions. Eventually the mecca faction win and after that they face mecca. Occams razor suggests Gibson's model rather than Kings

[@ahmadhashim1228]

Quite interesting. A Christian is hosting another Christian to talk about the work of another Christian regarding Islam. And they are agreeing with each other, I wonder if this comes close to honest handling of a controversial issue. Bravo indeed !!!!

[@pinpoint3770]

call Christian Prince you pride Abdul: Skype: DebateTV

[@muslimeen1930]

Lol true one blind man leads another blind man

[@muslimeen1930]

@@pinpoint3770 Yes we certainly will Skype him if he is man enough to show up personally

[@pinpoint3770]

@@muslimeen1930 a great argument: he has no face so he is no man.... did mohamed ever see the face of allah?

[@muslimeen1930]

@@pinpoint3770 He's no man but a rabbit hiding in his dark hole , Allah was not seen by anyone

[@salahuddinusman2066]

King: satelite!!! Why did not i think of that??

[@Hamann9631]

Interesting video. People who have an idol face their idols.

[@rizhawk1628]

About the direction to Qibla what I can say that it can not be 100% accurate because it was not possible at those days. We live in Bangladesh and our simple rule is just fact to west since Saudi Arabia (Mecca) is to the west from Bangladesh but it does not necessarily need to be 100% match the direction. So the argument of the direction using Satellite is not strong at all.

[@riteshpandey814]

Is it a coincidence that all mosque of those time is pointed toward Petra. If it was not accurate than how all mosque was pointed toward petra

[@eplimish]

It's ok to query or exclude the qibla orientation of distant mosques wr to this discussion, but the orientation of mosques more local to the Middle East, eg in Jordan Palestine and Syria up to c 100AH - 200AH definitely show an orientation toward Petra. Not at all random, and just as much a surprise to Dan Gibson as it was to everyone else.

[@melcag1609]

That's nonsense. The ancient Egyptians could do it 5000 years ago and the ancient Greeks. It was a known knowledge.

[@eliasokello1656]

Dan Gibson's material is wrecking havoc to Islam, especially here in Africa. The imams just can't answer the qibla dilemma. They rather employ stalling tactics or outright indifference and violence.

[@aaabrams1889]

Dan gibson is a joke..no one is talking him seriously ...He's getting old and senile...

[@eliasokello1656]

The comments by AA ABRAMS is just an example of the various diversionary tactics common among Muslim debaters, attacking the personality of an opponent. I don't know whether he is a Muslim but I've handled such before

[@aaabrams1889]

@@eliasokello1656 THIS OLD TOPIC HAS BEEN DEBUNKED MANY TIMES OVER by Muslims and Non-Muslims ....YET, Satan grabs onto straws, desperate to convince gullible people... understandingislam.today/is-mecca-or-petra-islams-true-birthplace/

[@fantasia55]

elias okello How many Africans have heard of Dan Gibson's material?

[@eliasokello1656]

@@aaabrams1889 thanks for the link. It's a lengthy but good discussion. I've got one question though. The three Abrahamic faiths, that is Judaism, Christianity and Islam; all believe in angels, right? The first two in that list share a great deal of doctrine. The Jewish holy scriptures is actually the Christian old testament, differing only in arrangement of books. Now, according to the Qur'an Sura 53:5, Sura 75:18, Sura 2:97, Sura 85:21-22. The central message is that it is the angel Gabriel who revealed the book to Muhammed the prophet of Islam. That same angel Gabriel appears to Daniel much earlier in Daniel 8:16-17, Daniel 9:20 -22 to reveal apocalyptic prophecies and the coming of the mesiah. Now Christians consider Daniel to be a prophet while Jews group the book among historical literature. That same angel appeared to the high priest Zachariah in Luke 1:11-19 to inform him of his unborn child John and the work he is supposed to do concerning the same Messiah. Angel Gabriel, again appears to Mary betrothed to Joseph in Luke 1:26 - 38 to inform her of the nature of her pregnancy and birth of the mesiah. Considering the magnitude of contradictions between the Christian Bible and Jewish scriptures as compared to the Qur'an, were these two angels sharing names? Was this angel deliberately lying to one party and telling the truth to another? Do Holly angels lie? If they do, who was lied to? If they don't, there's clearly an imposter here. Who's the imposter? I know a Muslim will quickly brush off the Jewish and Christian scriptures as adulterated and corrupt. My question is, where and when. Considering that there's an insurmountable source of manuscript evidence supporting Christian and Jewish scriptures.

[@razzyp3999]

Just curious why wasn't anything written about this Petra by Muslims of the time when they were facing it in pray ??

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusions but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, history of wars, and even Roman history or Christian history or Jewish history.

[@SreekanthYerram]

Simple: Show the olive trees in mecca.

[@metaknight859]

(رَّبَّنَاۤ إِنِّیۤ أَسۡكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّیَّتِی بِوَادٍ غَیۡرِ ذِی زَرۡعٍ عِندَ بَیۡتِكَ ٱلۡمُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنَا لِیُقِیمُوا۟ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ فَٱجۡعَلۡ أَفۡـِٔدَةࣰ مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ تَهۡوِیۤ إِلَیۡهِمۡ وَٱرۡزُقۡهُم مِّنَ ٱلثَّمَرَ ٰ⁠تِ لَعَلَّهُمۡ یَشۡكُرُونَ) [Surah Ibrahim 37] Mecca is infertile. Where the heck did you get the idea of olives in mecca.

[@munawaralias8980]

Not sure about olive trees. But plenty of dates groves around Makkah.

[@cornflakes3165]

@@metaknight859 olive trees are mentioned in as shaam , Palestine sides no where it's said that in Makkah there are olive trees .

[@deeXaeed]

Oh yar tum bhartion ko kya takleef hai? Musalman ho? Nahin na. Phir kya takleef hai k petra hai ya makkah?

[@deeXaeed]

Translation: What do you Indians have to do with it? Are Muslim? Not right? So why does it matter to you whether it's petra or mecca.

[@bethm4448]

With that SAID ;)

[@opoae20]

whatever do you guys... our faith remains strong

[@jabirrehman6458]

Andrew j wood a physicist has calculated some whr in turkey Europe is to be the centre of the earth could tht be the new qibla ia...?

[@steinadleradler3431]

My mosque building is actually facing Paris.Direction of building and prayer can be different!

[@steinadleradler3431]

@The Astronomer you are right architects did their best but THEIR BEST . You buy a commercially available magnetic Compass and see where you end up pointing :)

[@dpshukla7835]

No doubt Gibson has done an intensive job

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars, the futuh Mecca, the Haj

[@diarraoussoumane5452]

Wha is the direction buddy of the profet Mohamed is facing

[@seye8eyes]

Personally I like Dan Gibson Stamping & Mapping Hijrah Haj of Qibla's Quest Question the face of Muhammad Mecca Medina Petra Treasury collection of ?

[@jabirrehman6458]

It’s an Islamic problem so let’s look at it from the traditional way? We still need to find the centre of the world whr it needs to come to an end ia

[@berkantsokmen7651]

Sir, if you turn to Kaaba from every point on the earth, it becomes a circular place.

[@sanjeshdarbari549]

better to have one to one debate with gibson that doing one side program

[@maaccaac6193]

I would like share with don gibbons that there is masjid in Somalia 🇸🇴 with two qibla in zailac city in northern region

[@mo8755]

It’s not enough that they’ve erased Palestine , now Gog & Magog trying to erase Mecca 🤔

[@dexter9330]

Its already been happening. Ever since american ships settled there. Its all linked.

[@muhammednurmuttamimbinadan989]

I wonder if this what Christian feels like when we Muslim tell them their religion is wrong when they were born and thought about their religion and then we came in and say "Your religion is false"

[@ALLHEART_]

Chad Dan "Honorary Bedouin" Gibson vs virgin David "One Qibla" King.

[@the1allahprays2]

What's he talking about 5th century mosques? Someone fill me in..

[@samsonyombon217]

You see the basic fact on or of Mecca starts way back when Abraham went and left Hagar and Ismail. The question to answer is in Genesis where Christians need to answer the goegraphy of where they were left. Were they left in a green plain or valley with trees, water and animals? But if desert, then it's desert.

[@devasinkh7251]

Dan's work was amazing. He love did it.

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars.

[@Taydutt13]

​​@arwiart5354 they are no sources from within the first century of islam that tells us anything about any of that, and what fragments we do have contradict the Quran.

[@kasimshaikh3750]

According some relying on Muslim books is entirely wrong. Seems so hypocrital and childish.... I mean the world history would be nowhere. But I guess haters get a chance to say something... Even though they didn't even understand Gibson in the first place. Anti-Islamics were like let's rejoice. Really childish.

[@proudamerican7662]

Anyone worried about the safety of discussion of this topic 🤔

[@kolkark7838]

Sir please tell me the exact date of birth of Jesus Christ

[@tumpau1098]

Quiblah means scarificing temple of lah. Masjid al Haram= Beit al haram= Kaaba= house of haram Haram means a woman who gives service to men, in paganism traditions holding naked Hajj inside or outside kaaba during muhammad's time and before.

[@ugurnergiz3670]

Son of a bitch!!!!

[@bilaldar2120]

1) Who funded Mr. Gibson for 25 years of his research 2) There were no gps coordinates in those times till recently 3) please don’t mess up to show your knowledge.

[@addalavenkataratnam5449]

I HAVE read THE Gibson's book and whether IT IS true or not ,he did EXCELLENT research work TO write THIS BOOK FOR which he should be appreciated .He HAS compared the trees ,agriculture ,Geographical features as in the quran, further ,archeological evidence and direction of MOSQUES at various places which are suffice TO convince any sane man that petra was the original macca and those GEOGRAPHICAL conditions as mentioned in the quran were not there in today's macca, in 7 th century .Macca is only mentioned once in the ENTIRE Quran .

[@theastronomer5800]

@Electrical Engineering Video No, it is not actually. There are many scholars who for decades have argued for norther origins to Islam and the Quran. This is based on linguistic and epigraphic studies (Dr. Puin, Dr. Ohlig, Dr. al-Jallad, Dr. Wansbrough, Dr. Luxenberg etc....) which show that the language used in the Quran is that of northern Arabia with heavy influence of Syriac. Numismatic studies (Dr. Vopp etc) show that early Islamic coins were minted in Jordan and Syria for ~100 years after Muhammad, and they make little reference to early Caliphs or Muhammad. Trade route studies (Dr. Crone, Dr. Cook etc) show that Mecca is never mentioned on any contemporary documents until well after Muhammad, but Petra is. All of these (I only mentioned a few) argued that it's more likely that Islam started in the north (the Quran for example mentions many geographical places which are well known to be in northern Arabia - Gibson covers these in great detail in Quranic Geography). So, his research is backed by the conclusions of quite a few scholars, and his findings support their conclusions. What we need is Muslim archaeologists to do detailed studies of these mosques. It's very strange that they have not done so before and published papers on them a long time ago.

[@munawaralias8980]

"after an earthquake in 363 destroyed many structures. In the Byzantine era several Christian churches were built, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era it was abandoned except for a handful of nomads." - excerpts from Wikipedia. Petra - the central of Islamic world according to Dan Gibson long abandoned at the early Islam. Very big ooppps by Dan Gibson.

[@munawaralias8980]

By the way, the accuracy of qibla is not given highest prominent during early Islam. There is even a verse agreeing to this : "whichever directions you turn to, you shall turn to the face of Allah" . Can't remember the verse and sura. I hope someone can point to the right sura and verse.

[@munawaralias8980]

Since you have read his book, can you check out the direction of Masjid Quba. Since the Masjid is built during the Prophet's time. And also Masjid Nabi. Not that it will change anything amongst Muslims.

[@joyellis7352]

Thanks j smith for u r lncredible findings

[@UMAKEMESMILESWACKIN]

Foremost authority on qibla only went to one Mosque HAHHAHAHHA

[@asifbrettishmaelmakki9]

15.00. Nice reciting. If quran is saying, One direction only and one place! So the multiple directions is the introduction of falsehood, that is Opposing the quran.

[@asifbrettishmaelmakki9]

@Al Mudarabah. I am gonna check ur vid out soon. A good issue is mentioned by brother Joseph (quranic centric site), On kibla direction issues and the words " shatral masjidil haram". If u have a closed up mind, u will not understand brother Joseph. 😉Wat he says on "shatral masjidil haraam" is obviously totally acceptable.

[@ibrahimfakude1288]

They intend to extinguish the Light of Allah with their mouths. But Allah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers dislike it

[@shampar10]

I agree here with Jay Smith, but it also be mentioned that Dan Gibson also believes in the historicity of Muhammad. Jay does not.

[@musabashraf]

Just refer Quran 14:37, The whole claim of Gibson is debunked. Prophet Ibrahim says "Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House" Quran says Mecca is uncltivated land. Is Petra uncultivated land?😂

[@allistaircampbell9282]

Debunked by you? 😂😂😂😂😂 allahou akbar!

[@thorandlundeve]

I'm a muslim myself and I'd not use the verse if I were you. It's backfire

[@muslimeen1930]

You right , exactly ! We don't face Makkah we face the Qiblah which is the Kaabah

[@sreeyaanksh]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@rekibbora5190]

Totally incorrect information by Dan Gibson on Petra. Petra was a palace, not Holly place.

[@akameel]

Dan Gibson’s latest discoveries? He’s not an archaeologist and in my observation all his findings are due to being islamophobic…

[@brownwarrior6867]

A rolling stone gathers no mosque

[@akameel]

Thanks for informing us that Dan Gibson is not an accomplished scholar; neither a historian nor an archaeologist. Indiana Jones. That tells a lot regarding his “research”.

[@ahmadmuzakkir6792]

I really pity those who believe these craps...our first qibla was masjid Aqsa in jerusalem...then Allah changed it to Kaaba in Mecca...simple as that....Petra was never our qibla....if Allah told us to pray to Yemen...we could just simply move our qibla to Yemen...simple as that? key point is..it is Allah's commandment...not human hearsay....

[@sweetcoffee2458]

True indeed

[@darth_veda]

The comments here are hilarious. Cheer leading at its finest.

[@mgak7720]

dan gibson just want to sell his book..

[@Abu-Alhassan]

I never know that the enemies of islam are so jealous that we have One ☝🏽 Qibla one Direction towards the Holy Mosque of Al-Masjid al-Haram. 1.7 billion Muslims pray towards Mecca 🕋 and those claims we got it wrong 😂.

[@borneandayak6725]

Dan Gibson 100 times better scholar than King.

[@drjaaj1594]

Many of the great people in our history have not had PhD. PhD unfortunately specially in theology’s and literature are very very corrupted. Dan Gibson and many others have a very valid arguments.

[@MuhammadRadze]

Good experiment .. After this you can ask them how to find the direction of Qibla of our ancestors when they are in a ship that is sailing in the middle of the ocean ..

[@iva-ox2qn]

That's why allah is a stupid god

[@RambleOn.]

There’s a great documentary on Dan Gibson’s research on YT- it’s on a history documentary channel, maybe “timeline”? But it was very well done- super well produced, very interesting, & educational- abt early history of Islam & the religion itself; as well as the Qibla dilemma. As an archeologist, it HAS TO BE PETRA. Lack of archeology info in ground from Mecca, & amnt of archeology/anthro that points to Petra is unmistakable. I hate when ppl won’t even consider facts bc of implications of what changes or questions might mean, as if knowing the Truth doesn’t matter?!? So Islam just covers up this info & aspect of history from its adherents/members…? wtf!? 🤷‍♀️🙄 Transparency is much better at the end of the day, & given all the issues & questions surrounding this “religion”, they should be careful; Bc when you demand SO much from ppl & hold such a dominant hold over their lives, minds, hearts, countries, identity, etc… you can fuel MASSIVE pushback & abandonment if ppl lose trust in legitimacy of the mandate of Mohammed. I wish ppl would wake up but I don’t want them to be hurt by it, but come to know the real God, & True Faith… I KNOW Islam is an authoritarian death CULT- a high demand, high control, destructive, harmful, DANGEROUS, coercive, abusive, exploitive, GIANT HATEFUL, MISOGYNISTIC, FRAUD! Taking advantage of unlearned/ignorant ppl, & hopefully they’ll develop critical thinking & find that peace, love, & kindness is better… & found through Jesus. Thanks & appreciation for all the awesome work y’all do!

[@AmatzFox]

Jay: Dan King vs David Gibson... 😁

[@yogi-vw5fe]

Dan gibson should visit a mosque in kerala, india built by arabic traders when muhammad was alive.. maybe there he could find a big clue...

[@Tthe_0racle]

Empty vessels who are making much noise, Dan Gibson has done all the research. How many mosques have these two two visited. They should just shut up.

[@trecool9336]

the only gibson i know is the guitar species

[@ayray6798]

Lies will never stand, simple solution show a single mosque between Makkah and Petra and then see if any faces toward Petra.

[@bartconnolly6104]

Lol dwho would build a mosque in the middle of a desert between mecca and petra during the ridda wars?

[@peddintilokanadham9134]

His efforts are appreciable

[@daddo52]

The verses they are quoting are different than my Qur’an. Mine comes from Pakistan and was published in 1996. The first edition was published in 1917.

[@robex1090]

King's ethos is irrefutable. However, Gibson's pathos and logos presented in his research are indisputable. I'd prepared to embrace the work of the latter.

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars, the futuh Mecca, the Haj

[@jkmutaike]

The issue of directions was an int that led this scientist to unveil the real details, it was not the main evidence......What about the fact that Trees were never in Mecca, that the Cave Mohammed prayed was not directly facing the gate in Mecca, that the marking stones or signs around Mecca signifying the holy place or gathering place are not in Mecca. And that ALL these are in Petra? Even the stones used to destroy the holy places are there in Petra, and the temples of other god referenced in Quran are not in Mecca but Petra....

[@thoughtsofwisdom1223]

Dan Gibson's research is compelling

[@Reviewsinarabic]

I would like to see him talk about the Bible contradictions

[@arwiart5354]

Gibson only displays or uses facts that support his conclusion but denies other facts that contradict it, for example the history of the Prophet's migration, the history of wars, the futuh Mecca, the Haj

[@cornelgbongco]

How about the mosques in the Philippines? Mindanao has a sizeable Muslim population