Kingdom of Khazad-dûm & Moria Dwarf Tier List - Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game | MESBG

Our next topic is on the Kingdom of Khazad-dûm and Kingdom of Moria army lists. Top US player Alisher joins us to debate and rank this ever-popular dwarven faction!
Thank you to everyone who submitted their photos for this video; make sure to check out their work on Instagram:
@colorsofmiddleearth
@factions_of_middle_earth
@the.dragon.hoard
@alonso_is_op
@heroichighlights
00:00 Introduction
00:52 Dúrin, King of Khazad-dûm
06:52 Mardin
09:16 Flói Stonehand
13:55 Balin, Lord of Moria
16:55 Gimli, Son of Glóin
19:45 Ori the Dwarf, Champion of Erebor
21:45 Oin the Dwarf, Champion of Erebor
23:19 Dwarf King
25:07 Dwarf Captain
26:05 King’s Champion
27:25 Shieldbearer
29:18 Dwarf Warrior
31:35 Khazad Guard
33:39 Iron Guard
36:22 Dwarf Ranger
38:18 Vault Warden Team
41:01 Dwarf Ballista
More Tier Lists:
kzbin.info/aero/PL4AjD8eksrQH5qcVcOHkfDoCWI5d_oxST
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Credits:
Music: Tavern Loop One by Alexander Nakarada (www.serpentsoundstudios.com) Licensed under Creative Commons BY Attribution 4.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

[@nateadams1412]

love this video keep this content up!

[@obicproductions890]

It was an absolute blast coming on for a few episodes. Its good to know that there are so many Durin supporters amongst your audience haha. Thanks for the opportunity! -Alisher

[@intothewestpodcast]

Great having you on, Alisher! We've never taken as much backlash from a hero rating before 😂 so I think you got the W here. -Richard

[@tacquitotim570]

Finally been waiting for this one!

[@tacquitotim570]

Nvm I Insta regret this comment 10 minutes into the vid. Minor hero for Durin!!? This has to be a marketing tactic to piss off all the dwarf players in the world ngl

[@intothewestpodcast]

Lol it evened out to a Fortitude, that's fair right? Surely, you don't agree with Alisher that he's a top 5 hero... -Richard

[@tacquitotim570]

Definitely low legend, nah not top 5 heroes, that’s a stretch. The Minor hero rating got me salty hahah. He is definitely one of the most reliable hitters on foot in the game though, so nothing was mentioned about his damage output. Being F6 means he won’t have to trade Might as often and he has a lot of built in reliability to win fights.If he loses a fight an Elven lord trying to damage a D9 Dwarf King is not easy. Also if you stick Durin in a middle objective, that’s a sure win. But I think you guys were pretty harsh with scoring him. I agree he’s not the most point efficient model, but within a Khazad Dum vacuum he does a fair bit for the army without direct troop buffs.

[@donbarnett7137]

This was fun. Pretty much agree with all your placements. I think the only one I'd adjust would be Floi. I'd drop him down to Fortitude. His Loremaster rule is fun, and can be valuable in certain situations, but I find you generally cannot afford the loss of a combat hero to take him. Not only that but his shenanigans are situational. I've played with him in many game and didn't really ever need to use Loremaster. I think Durin would be Legend tier if the Horn of Zirakzigil was an optional choice worth x points. Even if you assigned that item a value of 20 points, he'd shoot up to Legend if you didn't take it and paid 140 for him. He's not a killer, but if you play the army well he should almost never die. So you deny your opponent break and leader kill. Makes it hard for them to win. Yay defence!

[@intothewestpodcast]

Thanks for watching Don, we need to get you on as a guest sometime! I guess I looked at it from the opposing side of Floi, as I've never used him myself but played against him plenty and he's always a pain! I never get to use my most fun model, so perhaps I'm biased in that way. Totally agree, Durin would be so much more viable and not broken at 130-140 points. -Richard

[@donbarnett7137]

Would love to. Any time. Floi certainly can be a major pain at times.

[@kaprii351]

hi great video. maybe you can answer me a question concerning the dwarf balista. Shooting at Cavalary: is there an in the way roll required for horse or rider? Or is the whole model hit?

[@intothewestpodcast]

Thanks! Small siege weapons take In The Way checks based on the final path of the shot. So I would say no, it would be the target only (horse or rider) though it would almost always be the rider since targets are instantly knocked prone so horses would instantly be removed, only things like wargs could stick around. -Richard

[@matthewhoey4386]

I am currently putting an army together for both factions.

[@mattrondeau2]

On Durin, he's expensive, but once you take all those less expensive heroes who added together do what he does, you're likely paying more than you would if you just got Durin on his own. Durin is an absolute killer in combat and when you add in his Hearthguard, there are very few things that will stand against that. Plus they have bodyguard on a D9 3 wound hero with his unique save and great combat stats. I'd say he's in Fortitude because you get so many little things with him and the hearthguard. He isn't in the league of say a Boromir CotWT who is arguably the best hero in the game, but I do think he gets shafted pretty hard through no real fault of his own. His biggest weaknesses (his low speed comes to mind) is really an army wide weakness for KoKD/Moria. Plus on a casual side it's fun to just chuck a dwarf king into a blob of enemies and just see them melt haha EDIT: Also Floi's restriction on hero selection is really dumb. Really feels like the LoTR dwarves got the shaft compared to the Hobbit ones

[@sjins1poolboy698]

One of my best tournament moments was Durin killing Suladan on a horse first turn of lords of battle, and then later Durin with a horde of hearthguard one shot a mumuk. Fair to say I think very highly of him. Also his horn is a god end against terror armies since your almost never failing. And who can forget his magic hat to keep him alive forever! 🤣

[@Corppi22]

One thing about Vault Wardens which people seem to completely overlook is to NOT use them as a team. Instead you use the spears to make you heroes more reliable and have the shields at the ends of the battleline as roadblocks. Its a really solid way to make your heroes like Balin or Dwarf King not botch their combats all the time, or say make it more reliable to go for a clutch Heroic Combat. As for the shields the ends of a battleline or blocking a chokepoint makes full use of their D9, your average S4 hero cant kill them reliably and even when surrounded S3 chaff cant put them down. Really annoying if trying to attack a dwarf flank.

[@intothewestpodcast]

That's a good point, makes a lot of sense!

[@giraffediety2477]

The Kingdom of Moria list restrictions are all over the place. Floi has his restrictions, but the FAQed Balin and Floi benefit from Oin special rule (but not Gimli). Who is supposed to be in this list? Wtf

[@intothewestpodcast]

It's a mess indeed but no one complaining because it's not a top tier army 😅 -Richard

[@grimgrauman7650]

As far as i know you can play all the named heros of Kindom of Moria together.

[@MrShortie82]

​@@intothewestpodcastnot a top tier list? This faction is incredible, just noone seems to play to their strengths... spamming regular dwarf warriors with shields, 3rd bows, a ballista or 2, and double kings champion and you can force almost every other army to come towards you... making their mobilty not an issue, my 800point list has no named characters, 2 kings champion, a king, 2 ballista and has 46models in the list... its extremely hard to get through😊

[@intothewestpodcast]

@MrShortie82 Fair play, I definitely think it has potential but I just feel like the mobility issues hinder the army in several scenarios so I think while it doesn't struggle to get wins, it's hard to win a big tournament which often times you need to go undefeated in 5-6 games! But I do think you are playing the list the right way, high numbers with ballista(s)! -Richard

[@muesliman100]

@@MrShortie82 well maybe two-thirds of the scenarios require you to not sit back because of some type of objective so forcing opponents to come to you is not that useful if you have to move towards them as well

[@Oldghyll]

I really enjoy the dwarf ballista. At 60 points, it poses a scary threat for big heroes and can shut down sections of the board if it is positioned correctly.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Agreed - I think they’re pretty underrated. Even if you’re not rolling many hits with them, they can really affect the way your opponent deploys and moves. -Charles

[@Jewus19]

all Durin needs is for his items to be OPTIONS. Just imagin the witch king coming baked in with ALL OF HIS OPTIONS from the getgo. Noone would play that trash xD. So if the horn, the ring and the crown would be upgrades, you would simply never see them. it would enable him to flash out his troop numbers and that is desperatly needed. I dont need a 6+ feel no pain, never comes into play. I dont need a warhorn on a fearless dwarf in a warband full of fearless dwarves. The priority is nice but only a gadget. He would be like 100 pts without these items xD now THAT would be a bargain! Or make it 120, still!

[@intothewestpodcast]

Great idea! I agree, a cheaper Durin would make him so much more viable! You're totally right that his rules are not very necessary and anti-synergistic.

[@coolguyhennan]

Is khazad dum/k.o moria competitive? Never seen them win anything.

[@donbarnett7137]

They can podium, but I've only ever seen them win once. They just can't accumulate enough vp's, so normally loose out on tie breakers even if they win all their games.

[@grimgrauman7650]

Ori is acctuly quite funn. His ruels also work with Balin and Floi. So Balin gets a better version of blood and Glori. And he is only 55p and can lead 12

[@intothewestpodcast]

My bad. Missed that in the FAQ. -Charles

[@_ccann]

You guys really mangled the rules on taking Floi. You can absolutely take Gimli and Floi together.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Yeah I've seen it done at Nova and I agree with that call. All we were saying is the wording is not the most clear, not the only time that's happened in the ruleset. -Richard

[@GollumGamers]

A minor from Charles and Richard!?? #justicefordurin

[@intothewestpodcast]

That IS justice! Lol -Richard

[@FlowerFinni]

Ori's chronicler special rule does work with Balin and Flói. It's in the army of hobbit FAQ. As a Khazad-Dûm player I strongly disagree with a lot of the placements. Arguing for putting Durin in minor feels like you are meming tbh. I feel bad for Alisher. You could see the light go out of his eyes when he realised this was not the tier list he expected.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Maybe I was a tad harsh, a bit of a subtle shot to our friends at the Durin Show but I don't think the points we made were too far off and Fortitude is fair. He's a great thematic profile, just not super competitive. Haha hopefully that wasn't the case and Alisher still enjoyed doing the episode, I'd like to think it was because it was the 3rd episode recording that night and energy levels were lower. Nothing wrong with MESBG disagreements among friends. -Richard

[@FlowerFinni]

@@intothewestpodcast I would have put him in valour myself, but I see your points. Haha I hope so aswell. Always enjoy his takes on the game. And I'm looking forward to your next video.

[@obicproductions890]

Here I thought I was being invited to sing the praises of the dwarves but in the end I found out it was all a trap and I was like a lamb being led to slaughter... Perhaps its time for Durin to come back into my tourney cycle haha. - Alisher

[@FlowerFinni]

@@obicproductions890 I think it's time. I've had a lot of success with them myself recently. Had a tournament last week where Durin single-handedly won half of my games.

[@obicproductions890]

@@FlowerFinni I have an 800 one day event next weekend that I was going to take Mirkwood to but I may have to switch it up and take a Durin list.

[@markushammond982]

My oh my oh my… idk where to start! I think I need to dust Durin off. Minor hero is worse than insulting my mother 😮

[@intothewestpodcast]

We would never, Markus! -Richard

[@TheDurinShow]

Lol … I’ll translate this entire tier list video for everyone. “It doesn’t fit my play style and I don’t know how to use him so therefore it sucks”. 😂😂😂 At least Alisher knows but you could see him give up trying to argue right out of the gate. FYI. Floi can absolutely be taken with Gimli and the champions. -Mitchell

[@intothewestpodcast]

I guess if you think something sucks it just means that you don't know how to use it. I'll retract my past statements and going forward my stance is: All profiles are equally good in this game and can be taken competitively! -Richard

[@TheDurinShow]

@@intothewestpodcast not everything is competitive… but come on…. Durin is not a minor tier. Lol

[@obicproductions890]

What can men (or I suppose in this case dwarves) do against such reckless hate Mitchel lol. Who knows maybe ill have the opportunity to avenge Durin very shortly... - Alisher

[@TheDurinShow]

@@obicproductions890 I know right? Haha well awesome! Can’t wait to see him hitting the top tables again! -Mitchell

[@grimgrauman7650]

Iron Guard is overcosted. They should be like 13p. So only Fortitude. Vault warden is Legend tier, but you have to protect them with other troops. People always say that Kazad-dum has no spears, but forget that they have some of the best in the game And regular Kazad Guard is Legend. They are insane for only 11p.

[@intothewestpodcast]

Agreed on Khazads for the longest time, but lately with Easterlings, Beornings, etc there’s a lot more F5 armies around that make them a bit less scary. Vault wardens are very good, but I also think they require an experienced player to get the most out of them. High skill ceiling, if you will. -Charles

[@grimgrauman7650]

@@intothewestpodcast i think vault warden teams are not that difficult to play. You use them like most normal battlelines. Only that you have F4 S4 and D9. The only thing diffrent is that you need some normal troops at the flank so the Spears don't get attacked

[@grimgrauman7650]

@@intothewestpodcast yes but the F4 was never the strenght of the Kazad Guard. Also they have a very good profile against Beornings. S4 and D7 is perfect agains S4 and D4. Bodyguards against the Bears.

[@muesliman100]

​@@grimgrauman7650the hard part is protecting the spears while moving up (only D6 makes them a very nice target for S2 bows) and something like Minas tirith can easily kill 4 foe spears if you just put them behind the Shields and at the front of your line. Protecting them and yet making sure they catch up to each other and are protected from the back makes them harder to play. But that is also because the basic warrior options are really easy to play (dwarf warriors with shields or dwarf bows and khazad guards are really survivable)

[@grimgrauman7650]

@@muesliman100 you just put another line of warriors in front to protect them from shooting. It is a bit more difficult.