Kitchen Light Spacing Best Practices, How to Properly Space Ceiling Lights

[@davidduane8002]

This is completely incorrect!!! People please do not follow this if you are remodeling a kitchen. This design is for "general area" lighting and not kitchen task lighting. This would be how you design a den, livingroom, bedroom where you want even lighting throughout the room. A kitchen is designed for work and those work areas are the areas that need to be focused on. There may be shadows if not enough lights are installed and if they are installed incorrectly. BUT PLEASE DO NOT EVER PUT YOUR LIGHTING BEHIND YOU IN A KITCHEN! This kitchen may look "lit" up in a picture as there is no one working in this kitchen but if you were to put 2-3 people moving around helping make Christmas dinner it would be horrible. I am a Master Electrician and also own a separate lighting company which we install designs in art galleries, salons, and other high lighting focused areas. My apologies for saying you're wrong but I want to save diy'ers the not so happy outcome in the end!!! As for me I would have had a couple more down lights in completely different locations on the counter tops and also under cabinet lighting and then this small kitchen remodel could be in a magazine!!!

[@JoyUnspeakableJoyin]

I'm moving into a brand new apartment in about two weeks, and noticed today the three recessed lights in the kitchen are not in a straight line. If you're standing at the front door and looking straight ahead into the kitchen, you can see that the two recessed lights that are farthest away are in a perfectly straight line, but the third one that is closest to me, is about two inches to the right. Is there anything they can do or would it be silly for me to even ask? This will drive me crazy. Why wouldn't an inspector make them correct that before moving on?

[@rainierremodeling6169]

He’s one of the builders that got it wrong

[@johnnyace8339]

Agreed - fellow electrician

[@fja4916]

So would his technique of two feet off cabinets, combined with under cabinet lighting be sufficient? Or should it be more of a staggered type ceiling layout of the lights. Genetically speaking of course. I realize there are size of room, and other variables to contend with.

[@soldatheero]

@@JoyUnspeakableJoyin inspectors dont care about looks they look for code rules just like electrical inspectors will okaoy electrical work and the building inspector will say NO just like vapour hatts on device boxes

[@ms.monceux4452]

Interior Designer/GC here: I often take lighting courses as part of my continuing education, and my last course was through Visual Comfort, the lighting company. Task lights should be spaced every 4' and 24" from the wall. Why? They are task lighting, and when you use a knife to work on the counters when the lights are behind you, it creates shadows, and you will cut your hand/thumb. Furthermore, I do universal design, meaning I design for aging in place (we now say 'Living in Place'); as we age, our eye lenses become yellow and more challenging to see; thus, one's kitchen should be well-lit. This video is 5 years old; this gentleman had his heart in the right place. As time passes, things get better, and research shows better ways of installing things, so let's not be too harsh.

[@graceland75]

I have tell to tell, I bought the suggested lights and install per your instructions and we were extremely please with results. Little to no shadows and we added a dimmer, those small lights are powerful. Thanks a million.

[@teeanahera8949]

You should have no shadows at all with lights closer to the walls.

[@danielverdin8333]

Coming from a design builder, I understand your point of view and frustration with incorrect installations. The AEC industry is plagued with incorrectness in every area (structural, electrical, plumbing) but what’s worst is the arrogant finger pointing “I’m better than you attitude” and unwillingness to make our fellow contractors better by taking a leadership approach instead of referring to their work as “stupid” “no idea what they are doing” etc. As a general contractor I have made mistakes in lighting but I learned because I wanted to do better. There is no one way or universal master guide to learn the hundreds sometimes thousands of scopes of work that encompass every aspect of building a Decent building. or in this case, optimize lighting design. So, from what I see/hear in this video, You’re knowledgeable, like what you do, and seems like you do good work. so don’t belittle others work but maybe point out why you would do it differently, inspire people to do better work by showing them a better way. That’s the only way this industry is going to change for the better.

[@alant5757]

@Daniel Verdin I hear Jeff’s now holding lighting placement classes... I suggest you sign up. (LOL)

[@jeffostroff]

@@alant5757 You're right, I'm sorry, I should never have pointed my finger at those builders. I meant to call those contractors who put the light 6" in front of the cabinet a genius. I didn't realize the industry was filled with super sensitve spineless snowflakes who needed a crying room after making people's lives miserable.

[@meetshield2461]

@@jeffostroff And this is why I don't drink any more....

[@hickeytrucks1515]

@@jeffostroff your a hack. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Now I'll have more work to fix correctly. Also why did you not use fillers with returns on the upper above the sink and move the outlet smashed against the fridge panel. Come on man!!!

[@tecumsah1460]

Used this video as a primer for my own kitchen lighting project. Works very well in that no shadowing exists beneath the cabinets but, as indicated in the comments, under counter led strips were added to improve task lighting. I used 4", 3000k led pucks with a dimmer. I am very happy with the result and thank you for the video since I would have made the same mistake without your help.

[@jeffostroff]

Awesome, glad to help, and thanks for watching

[@bonita-u9ve]

Recess lights online come in sizes from 3w to 24 w . Let's say 3 lights which are 7w or 10 w wouldn't actually be much larger than a ceiling rose . I read that canned lights heat up more because of the amount of metal

[@ScreamingLemon]

This video gave me the most information that I have been trying to find on KZbin for a long time

[@jeffostroff]

Glad to help Steve

[@dennisd4452]

Lost my olde account and took a few minutes to find you again. This video is going to help me out on my high ceiling Queen Anne house that I'd like to get my hands on soon.

[@jeffostroff]

Glad you located us again Dennis!

[@robbonnie4849]

The actual problem is trying to use ceiling lighting as an all-in-one source for kitchens. Kitchens require multiple light sources specifically designed for task working, not just general needs lighting like other rooms. There are a lot of factors to consider with setting up kitchen lighting, however technological advances make it easier to complement general area lighting in a kitchen, such as under/over cabinet lighting, accent lighting, decorative lighting, etc..

[@jeffostroff]

Yes you are right it really stinks when you're on a very very tight budget and can't afford to do all of the things you know need to be done

[@robbonnie4849]

@@jeffostroff Agreed, Budget is always the main factor!! Especially if necessary wiring is not available!

[@teeanahera8949]

I have ceiling fans which include lights, with the down lights being close to the wall to throw the proper light down to the benchtop (opposite to the incorrect advice on this page) the fan lights are dimmable, colour temperature adjustable too. The kitchen has pendant lights hanging low over the island cooking bench. The mix is great for central room lighting, work lighting and relaxing lighting with phone app colour control of the downlights.

[@xyzct]

Perfect ... if you want to work in your own shadow.

[@jeffostroff]

Apparently you did not pay attention. You should also watch my follow up where I debunked your darkside of the moon shadow theory

[@xyzct]

@@jeffostroff, apparently. But it doesn't mean I'm incorrect.

[@jeffostroff]

@@xyzct It does mean you ar incorrect, I proved it in the other video ✅ WATCH Our SEQUEL to this: How to Measure LED Kitchen Lighting, Best Design Practices : kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c

[@Auxified]

I'm glad I found this video. I was going to put my "down lights" only 18 from cabinet, but now I will move them out more, thanks !

[@jeffostroff]

Maybe you can plug one in and move it around near the ceiling and see what works best

[@lefthandedwoodworks]

Shadow from the cabinet or shadow from your head. Undercabinet lights are a must!

[@jeffostroff]

Everyone has their own preference on under cabinet lighting

[@Speedkam]

Jeff likes it because its his wife who cooks in the kitchen. That shadow makes no difference to him. Better actually her worsening sight means she cant see how bad his physique has become

[@davidbenji1]

Jeff, you explained the absolutely WRONG way to place your lights. The thing you aren't factoring in is that by having the light out 36" puts the light source behind the head of the person working at the counter. So when that person is standing next to the counter doing their prep, they will have diminished light from the shadow they cast over their work space. By having the lights in closer, as was the case in the first example you said was wrong, you get maximum and direct light to the area you need it which is right in front of you NOT towards the back of the counter. If you are concerned about the shadow the cabinets create by having the lights in closer, you install under cabinet lighting which is actually what you had in your remodel but didn't comment on their purpose. I hope this helps some people...especially those cooks that are 6' plus.

[@jeffostroff]

No you are incorrect because the light to the side of you will fill in whatever the light behind you missed. Also not everybody wants under cabinet lighting and you should not have to rely on under cabinet lighting to avoid shadows.

[@davidbenji1]

@@jeffostroff Your response is making my point. You said "the light to the side of you will fill in..." That "side light" is not as bright (it's much further away and indirect (not in the focal range)) as what your head and body is blocking. Also, I don't know who wouldn't want under cabinet lighting unless it's not in their budget or they have a boring backsplash. Even with your method you will only have the counter lit to the back edge but your backsplash will definitely be in a shadow. If you have invested the money in an attractive backsplash, you will definitely need under cabinet lighting to highlight it. If you have spent much time cooking, you realize you use the front 16" of the counter the vast majority of the time for cutting and prep and the back 8" are not where you need the light. This may just be my personal preference but I would rather have more direct light on the 16" space my hands are doing detailed prep rather than sacrificing my light to make sure the toaster against the wall is lit. If you are going to insist on putting lighting behind the cook rather than over the counter where it's needed, you should at least suggest to people to consider having task lighting by mounting lights under the cabinets.

[@DonkeyLipsDA3rd]

It's all a matter of preference and budget you guys are both right..

[@terryluebbe2560]

@@jeffostroff Thanks for sharing. I have to side with those favororing a 24" offset from the wall. I initially placed the light over my workbench too far back. The bench was well lit until I stood in front of it to work on something. At my age, I need full light to see well. Even the "slight" shadow you decribe would be i tolerable.

[@jeffostroff]

@@terryluebbe2560 That's fine, you can do a combo, try leaving the lone set of lights behind your head at 36" from the wall, and put in a couple of task lights that are 24" from the wall so they will fire down directly over the counter. This way you have the best of both worlds.

[@yvendous]

I'm 6'4" and thought I'd share my experience. Just built my kitchen cabinets/countertop 3" higher for my lower back issues preparing food for dinner. We also raised the cabinets up to the 8 foot high ceiling. 30 inches seemed to be the sweet spot in this scenario and the shadow under the upper cabinets isn't there. We just wired one LED pot light and tested it live, another person safetly held it above my head in a few spots until we figured it out. Maybe that trick will help someone doing that one reno on their own like me.

[@jeffostroff]

We are working on another kitchen lighting video to cover all of the scientific of the scientific ways to place the lights and measuring how much light you have as well

[@KefirTView]

Had no idea that Colonel Frank Fitts was shootin' KZbin videos! - You go man! Good recess lights video!

[@jeffostroff]

Thanks so much!

[@jimyounger9490]

I need to show ya a drawing of my ceiling light layout. You’re so right about the spacing. And my neighbors thought I was crazy and went overkill. Now that project long finished , its perfect. Tam king the time and making a good layout with good measurements is critical and way worth the effort. Great video.

[@jeffostroff]

You can messenger me on Facebook: facebook.com/jostroff

[@robertbribiesca6496]

Thank you for information on where to install lights and why.many won’t let one know.

[@jeffostroff]

Glad to help Robert

[@michaelkuzmin]

Thanks for the video, great point about shadows. A couple of extra things I noticed. 1) By this logic, the position of the light should depend on the height of the ceiling. Low ceiling should allow to position the lights closer to the cabinet, higher ceiling means the light needs to be further away 2) I really don't like how you positioned that light on the far right. It is too close to the cabinet corner. Not sure how to fix this

[@jeffostroff]

The position of that light was unfortunate but doesn't really affect anything. What happened was we set the lights where they are and built them into the ceiling, and then later while doing the cabinets it was decided it would be better to have a full depth cabinet over the refrigerator but a full depth cabinet requires that wall and so having the light where it is right now in theory it would have been 12" further away with the standard cabinet.

[@LAggari1]

Thank you so much for your tutorial videos. All your detailed diy tips help us tremendously. Subscribed to your channel ❤

[@TheCrimsonSparrow]

Can you help me with this conundrum? My husband is 6'9" and people are recommending that the lights be closer to the cabinet so that HE doesn't cast the shadow over his own workspace (which is why we're updating the lighting to begin with). I'd love your opinion: If we place the lights 3 feet out from the wall with cabinets, is he more likely to cast a shadow than if we placed them 2 feet from that wall? (Ceiling is 98" high, Room is 150"x155"). Thank you so much!

[@jeffostroff]

Does not matter what his height is, place the lights centered directly over the edge of the counter and you will have no problem. You can also hook lights to power cords like I do and get on a ladder put them in position and see where shadows go. I am working on a video for next week where I did a massive lighting project in a friend's kitchen involving these issues, sloped ceiling, getting correct light onto counters, measuring the light with app on the phone, and engineering the perfect lighting solution. You might want to wait for that. I would experiment with 24" from thh wall, which is over the counter, and maybe ambient fill light behind his head in the middle of the kitchen, to see how the 2 lights blend together.

[@TheCrimsonSparrow]

@@jeffostroff that's actually what I was thinking, too! I'll look for your next video as well. Thanks!

[@tcullen5895]

thanks for posting. Very helpful

[@mainman036roche8]

Jeff I took your advice and mounted my lights 3 feet from wall. I wanted to say Thank You! They look and respond Great.

[@jeffostroff]

Awesome glad to hear it worked out for you

[@dmpalmer9193]

Wow this is one of the most helpful videos. THANK YOU

[@jeffostroff]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching DM!

[@CatonaWall175]

Very good video,thanks. I am installing downlights in my kitchen and I will use your 'rule of thumb'; 36 inches from the wall. Thanks.

[@jeffostroff]

Make sure you test it out too, a lot of pros really adamantly think you need to be 24" back or you'll get shadows on the counter.

[@CatonaWall175]

@@jeffostroff Thanks for your advice.I have been searching for advice on this topic/scenario and I think that yours is the most helpful. Thank You.

[@CatonaWall175]

@@jeffostroff I checked another professional home improvement website and they strongly advised downlights at 1 metre centres and 1 metre off each wall.My kithen worked out 3 feet centres in both directions so I put them in at that and the lighting is much better so you were right.Thanks again.

[@TheWrecker93]

Finally did my kitchen lights today. Thank you so so so very much for posting this video otherwise I'd have put the lights closer to the cabinets like most people seem to recommend. The light fills in all the way to the back of the countertops and turned out great. Again thanks Jeff!!!

[@jeffostroff]

You are so welcome!

[@AZWSM]

Great Video. I am about to start our project today. I hooked up a light with a 6' pigtail and moved it around to check for shadows as you are showing here. Watching your video beforehand would have been much easier!

[@jeffostroff]

William, we just uploaded the sequel video to this one that shows how we did the light testing, and showing us trying to create shadows on the counter from all the people who complained that we had our lights too far from the wall at 36", see that video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c

[@MeHan612]

I have a sloped kitchen ceiling. I'm getting ready to install wafer lights. Would I follow that same rule of 3ft from the wall/12 inches in front of the cabinets? Would you recommend the eyeball wafer lights since it's in a slope?

[@jeffostroff]

You should view my latest kitchen lighting install video that I uploaded last month, it shows you the considerations and even more importantly how to measure your success with a free light meter app on your phone kzbin.info/www/bejne/hICtk4OKhbKXoNk

[@sandwich8989]

Love the video Jeff thanks man!!

[@jeffostroff]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@djknucklez1]

I was not expecting that intro music LOL thumbs up. :)

[@jeffostroff]

😁 I ditched that tune long ago

[@joejohn658]

I think how far you put the light in front of the wall cabinet largely depends on the type of light and its beam angle. The 6" wafer lights appear to have a pretty wide beam angle (i.e. 120 degrees) and that allows the light to be placed at 36 " from the wall or 24" from the front of the cabinet. That rule of thumb doesn't quite work with some of the traditional lights with a smaller beam angle. The beam angle on those lights are much narrower compared to the wafer lights and so they need to be placed above the edge of the counter at around 25". I've seen several of these videos that contradict each other, but don't point this distinction which is important. The only reason why the area under the cabinet is not as dark as traditional lighting is because of the wider beam angle compared to PAR/BR lights that were used in the past. The kitchens that were poorly lit was because someone changed the bulb to LED type without accounting for the beam angle.

[@jeffostroff]

Yes great points

[@freddyoner]

the same way you point out the shadow of the cabinets on the counter you will also have a shadow cast by your own head and shoulders when placing the light about 36 inches off the back wall. A lot of people want the light to come from above not behind them when working on the counter and the have under cabinet lighting to deal with the shadow you’re discussing.

[@jeffostroff]

You should not need the added expense of undercabinet light.

[@freddyoner]

@@jeffostroff I agree with you but the industry is split on these lights placement.

[@jeffostroff]

@@freddyoner Yes you have that right for sure. While the good news often is if they use some of the LED wafer lights for example like I was recommending, it's not that much effort to move lights on the ceiling if you have to and patch up the old hole.

[@dltorres17]

My question is that can this rule of thumb be applied for 4in led can lights? If im at yhe stove cooking wouldnt i cast a shadow over the food im cooking due to the light beaming from behind me?

[@janicesmith9706]

Thanks! I learned things!

[@jeffostroff]

Glad to hear it!

[@heidiobryan1]

Thank you for the video. Thankfully, things have changed in the last 5 years. Long and short of things, DON'T place your lights at 36 inches in a kitchen with upper cabinets over a counter. On this video, the only light source is the overheard source. If you are working at the counter, the light is going to be above your head, behind you. It will cast a shadow onto your work surface. You need the light overhead, directly over the counter top. You also need undercabinet lighting. AND if you don't want your kitchen to feel like an office break room, you are going to want more than just recessed lighting. You need pendants, linear lighting or chandeliers. (You need diffuse light/frosted shades if you are going for a soft feel as well, but that's my personal choice.) The light hitting the cabinets actually produces a beautiful warm glow on my pine cabinets.

[@alski259]

Hi, well done video. Question: With lighting 36" from wall and 24" from cabinet how do you prevent shadows cast when over a work surface? A light can essentially be at your back casting a shadow in front of you.

[@jeffostroff]

Shadows are not as bad as you think. If ceiling is higher than 8 feet, it will be better for you. I am working on another kitchen lighting video maybe for next week, where we show you the science of measuring lighting yourself with free phone apps, and show a 24" placement from the wall, right over cabinet edge.

[@alski259]

@@jeffostroff Hi Jeff and thanks for the reply. I'm confused though so help me understand. A big premise of the placement was to AVOID shadows. I get that. Now you're saying they're "not as bad as you think" You contradicted yourself. I have an 8 foot ceiling like most homes. I have only one wall cabinet in my layout - predominantly base cabinets. A light 36 inches from the wall where no wall cabinet is present, casts a shadow on the portion of the counter you are working over.

[@abramedison6018]

Saying this method is wrong is an opinion. I've used this method for years in the electrical field running my own company. Never had a complaint, always turned out great. There are multiple ways to get the lighting you desire.

[@jeffostroff]

It wasn't just opinion. I showed what happens when you place the lights 24" or less out from the wall, and the deep dark shadows under the cabinets. So if you think that's great, fine that's just your opinion. But people I've talked to don't like it.

[@abramedison6018]

@@jeffostroff not sure what you're talking about, I was agreeing with your layout.

[@VulgrDisplay]

I suggest people stand next to where you will be working and measure to the center of the top of your head. You will measure about 30-32" not 24" or 36". If you put your lights 30" off the wall it will cast YOUR shadow straight down, and not on the counter, and also illuminate more of your countertop. Split the difference for the best result while you actually work at the counter.

[@jeffostroff]

Exactly, that's why we say the light is not behind you but rather nearly beside you.

[@badbatch974]

What are the odds that you’ve never seen anyone do it right? When ever you feel that absolutely everyone else is wrong, maybe it’s a good time to check if what you think is right is actually what’s wrong. The biggest problem I foresee with the your 3’ rule (which is correct for any room but the kitchen) is that you will cast a shadow on the counter top when standing next to it. There’s a lot of ways to avoid this (adding more lights, under cab lighting, placing the lights closer to the upper cabinets, etc...) however to say that your right and everyone else is wrong, is probably not the right choice.

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, everyone keeps pointing to this 3' rule, but how much actual light testing have you done? You are so convinced my lighting arrangement will leave this dark side of the moon deep dark black hole of a shadow on the counter from which no light escapes. We did a follow up video to this one to debunk all the naysayers, and while you can see some shadows on the counter, we proved that it's not as bad as you are making out to be . See that video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c It's called "How to Measure LED Kitchen Lighting, Ideas, Design Practices"

[@badbatch974]

jeffostroff I’m aware of that video, I did watch it. I’m not sure where I said anything about a black hole of a shadow on the counter. However from lived experience, in a house that I owned with the recessed lighting placed at 3’ from the walls in my kitchen, when ever I lean over the counter to cut, or do anything, there it was, the shadow monster. Very inconvenient and annoying. My new house has the lighting in a more traditional location (pointing to the front edge of the counter top) and it really does make a difference. Granted I have under cabinet lighting to mitigate the dark spots next to the wall. I also understand that your budget on that project did not have the flexibility to do that and I’m absolutely not an expert on lighting or I wouldn’t be watching these videos. (unless it was just to point out mistakes like all the other viewers. Lol) I think if your going to only have one light source in the kitchen, than your better off with your type of arrangement over a single flush mount, centered in the room for sure. In the other video you go into several other houses with the same idea of moving all the lights towards the center of the room. That’s a big mistake in my opinion unless you are just using it for area lighting and have alternative task lighting.

[@jeffostroff]

@@badbatch974 The best compromise are the lights placed 3 to 4 feet from the wall, with task lights placed at 24" from the wall at the counter edge. Most tiny condos, that simply is not in the budget, but should be on a single family house.

[@MarioIArguello]

Great video👍 Comon sense, no need to be an engineer, although I am one in various fields, but most of the things I do are common sense, want to light out more area? move the light away from the wall. I would recommend that electrical code is checked in your specific area to make sure you are not bypassing certain rules which must be adhered for safety. One way to test the light distribution is to do a dry test, temporarily and carefully attach the light to AC power, and place on the ceiling, near the area you want to light up, before drilling holes to see how well the light you bought spreads the light and this may be a personal preference to light "warmth", in other words the color and intensity, as some lights work better in areas that you want daylight and others work better in areas that you want a subtle light diffusion, a warmer feel, For example, a family room may not need daylight if you want a more cozier environment. I would highly recommend the use of dimmable lights so to control the amount of light with respective spec-matched dimmers. If you want to make a $1,25 DIY ceiling hole cutter dust catcher, check out my lates video on my YT channel.

[@DejayTrump]

I put my lights 30"to 32"off the wall depending on the way trusses are and always looked good

[@djpelon13]

You don't necessarily Need to do 36 inch but what i get from this video is placement is key when doing any lighting and every project deserves a proper layout

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, and everyone has their own preference. Test out the spot with a live light.

[@DavidCConnor]

Jeff, what model of lights do you typically use? Also what is the Kelvin rating that you like? 2700, 3000, 4000? Additionally what is the spacing between the lights themselves. Appears to be as little as 24 inches from this video.

[@jeffostroff]

The lights are all 36" from the wall and if you go down the long side of the kitchen the lights are 36" apart but if you go across the narrow side of the kitchen lights are only 24" apart. I will look up the exact part number of from lights that I used in this video when I get home.

[@MrBobberqer]

Looks good for photos, but not for working, on a counter, with the lights behind you.. there is no need to have the back wall lit up.. no one is working on the back wall....other than that, nice video

[@laxmiadhikari7383]

Hi Jeff, I am so glad I found your video which gave me a lot of ideas about the positioning of downlight . I am building a new home I have an electrical plan but I want your advice to pinpoint the positioning of my down lights. If you can do that I will very thankful to you.

[@jeffostroff]

If you are starting from scratch, you can do so much more than we were able to do in this small condo kitchen with a limited budget. You'll want to make sure you have task lighting over the counters, so lights should be over the front edge of the counters no more than 24" from the back wall. Then make sure you also have lights on the ceiling over the walk ways of the kitchen to help light to the corners under the cabinets as we show in this video.

[@Jeff-xy7fv]

At 10:23 - the electricians should have used IC-rated can lights. Anything painted white is non-IC rated. But to minimize the fire risk if such cans already exist, use an LED trim; those won't get hot.

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, those lights shown at 10:23 were installed by the builder in 1993, very stupid, very illegal and should have been IC rated, or should have had the cage built around them, which is the other NFPA and likely NEC requirement.

[@tjle4900]

Great video tutorial, what's the distance between 2 lights? Thank you!

[@jeffostroff]

If I remember right it was 24" or 36" best to always experiment with your placement first

[@billvojtech5686]

I have a kitchen in my apartment that’s 95” wide and about 100” long, with counters and cabinets running along the 100” walls. The kitchen opens into the living room and the entry door is at the far end of the kitchen. I have under cabinet lighting, so I don’t get shadows. My ceiling fixture is a track light with spots that I point at the cabinets. The track light is not very attractive and the stovetop is poorly lit, even when the light in the microwave/ hood is turned on. The electrical box in the ceiling is centered between the counters and about 35” from the entry door. I’m thinking about putting in disc lights. Should I run one row down the center? That would make them 47.5” off the walls with the cabinets, not 36” like you suggested. Also, I’d like to use the hole where the electrical box is for one of the lights. The center of the stove is about 25” from the ceiling box. There’s a peninsula next to the stove. The center of it is about 25” from the center of the stove. Would 3 disc lights adequately light the kitchen?

[@jeffostroff]

Probably not. I am working on a kitchen video now very similar to what you describe, with peninsulas should be ready in a couple of weeks

[@chandiaz7694]

We have a house that was built in 2001. Our kitchen has flow-recent light mounted in the center of the kitchen ceiling. We are happy with the lighting but the boxed-in light assembly we don’t like and would like to install light you used. The flow-recent light box is about 3’6” by 5’ contains 2 double neon 48” light assembly. We definitely don’t have shadows under the cabinets. The box of light is 36” from one wall and 48” away from the other. We also have a counter with two cone shaped lights over it . Our question is: how many coned lights do we need to preserve the lighting we presently have?

[@rhetoricByEric]

I have a central light in my kitchen so that when I stand in front of a counter, my shadow falls over the work. Under cabinet lighting helps some, but I was thinking about new ceiling lights. The trouble is the vaulted ceiling. If I install ceiling lights as described here, the lights are directly above my head but angled away from the counter tops. Is there a way to adjust for this, or is it a non-issue?

[@jeffostroff]

I just completed a kitchen lighting project last week with sloped ceilings and special lights that I had bought that put not only a shadowless light on their counter, but also very bright light for older people and it can be controlled with a dimmer as well. I will have that video up in about a week or so so check back later for that. the entire video was showing you how you can use an app on your phone to see where the light is on your entire counter in your kitchen, and how to choose the right light that puts the right amount of light on that counter without shadows

[@DeltaCo7175]

Ive always centered the lights on the edge of the counter top so if standing at the counter you wont cast a shadow , and centered on the doors of double cabinets , nine times out of ten you'll be installing under cabinet lighting anyway. Any licensed electrician knows that an IC recessed can needs to be installed whenever in contact with insulation. Usually insulation has been installed after the lights were already there or a unlicensed (in most cases ) person does the install where the non approved can is used .

[@dibroc8348]

thanks for the tips. I am laying out my lighting plan for a new kitchen you helped a lot.

[@jeffostroff]

Thanks I'm so glad you found our video useful.

[@patrickwilson4902]

I think good idea 👍 ✌🤙...

[@jeffostroff]

Thanks 👍

[@lisacogs3380]

We're currently laying out the recessed lighting in our new construction kitchen. We will not have upper cabinets. L shaped 12'x14' w/ 6'x5' island. Sloped ceilings are 8' to 11' high. We're using 6" cans. I'm more concerned about my body creating a shadow when at the counter working. What's your opinion on where to place the perimeter or task lighting when there's not going to be upper cabinets?

[@dg9714]

Good info but I’d like to know how the light is affected when I’m standing at the counter working. Will I get a shadow from my body??? Thanks

[@jeffostroff]

Yes it will a little, but not as bad as my critics claim. See our other video we made in this completed kitchen where I pose in different spots and look for shadows, and we measure the light. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c

[@BeingMan11]

Good question. I'm wondering if they are planning to install undercabinet lighting. You are correct, putting lighting behind you will give you the lolly pop effect without UC lighting to dispel the shadows on the counter top and provide good task lighting while working.

[@jayrose9463]

Going to watch. Trying to find people that explains which size light and best practices. 4",6", or even 8" Thanks.

[@conniebrinker2637]

Hi Jeff. I've been watching your very informative video dated 9/29/18 about Kitchen light spacing best practices, How to properly space ceiling lights. My kitchen measures 11' x 13' with an 8' ceiling. The top of my cabinets start 12" lower than the ceiling. Your recommendation for rooms larger than 8'x10' is 6 lights. My question is what size (diameter) light would you recommend 4" or 6" or is it an aesthetic preference? Thanks and stay safe.

[@jeffostroff]

A lot of that has to do with the cone shape of light and distance, etc. They sometimes show the diagram on the back of the box to help you choose, it shows the intensity of the light across the distance, and the spread. I would try one of each size, power it up and see how bright it is.

[@zachford2616]

And one more thing... the ceiling height effects how far away your lights can/should be from the cabinets.

[@jeffostroff]

The ceiling height also effects how bright your light bulbs should be as well. the higher the ceiling the brighter the lightbulbs must be.

[@TheHandystanley]

Thank you for educating me on the LED Wafer lights. Now regarding putting them 36" from the wall. I installed three windows in my shop. I am planning on building a soffit along the window wall and install the canned or wafer lights in the soffit - one above each window. Should I still install them 36" from the wall or can I bring it in to 24"? I am planning on putting in moveable workbench / carts along the wall. These will be primarily accent lights as I will be installing LED main lights in the shop. Thanks!!

[@jeffostroff]

If there's no cabinets in front of the window, I'd leave the LED lights right in the middle of the soffit. In an ideal situation you want the lights to be over the counter, about 12- 24" from the wall, if there are no cabinets present. In this video you can see that the presence of cabinets caused us to place the lights 36" away to avoid dark shadows under the cabinets. But to prevent your shadow from dimming the light over your counter while you work, you will want the LED lights to be 12" to 24" from that back wall. With no cabinets there, you don't have to worry about glare off the cabinet, or the cabinet darkening the back corner of the counter top.

[@duallinguallady-aishaahmed1812]

First time here, thank you 😊 I subscribed

[@jeffostroff]

Awesome, welcome aboard

[@bonita-u9ve]

How much heat do you lose during winter , and are wafer lights safer than can lights ??

[@mhlee2194]

Thanks for the video! Anyway is the distance can be also applicable for a narrow beam angle downlight (36 degree)?

[@KentHenry8]

You have layer of concrete in the ceiling? I assume that's for hurricane resistance... is it required by code there or just nice to have?

[@seabass523]

Thanks very much for the info mr. You are totally correct I’m here working on these kind of lights right now.

[@jeffostroff]

Glad to help thanks for watching Seabass523

[@gadzhev79]

you have a beautiful kitchen

[@jeffostroff]

Thank you for the kind words, it was a lot of blood sweat and tears to get this kitchen up to this point after we gutted the ol done down to the studs.

[@paulward4299]

Great video. Do you recommend a light be installed over the sink for good light when working at the sink?

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, if you have the budget for it, that would provide good lighting at the sink. You can experiment with anywhere from 24" from the wall, up to 36" from the wall. Also, we just uploaded the sequel video to this one that shows how we did the light testing, and showing us trying to create shadows on the counter from all the people who complained that we had our lights too far from the wall at 36", see that video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c

[@herdysetyawan3990]

I need about 1200lm in my room, it is bright enough if i place 4 LED with each one have 500lm?

[@jeffostroff]

Yes the lumens are supposed to add up

[@madman432000]

Under cabinet lighting and in cabinet lighting and in drawer lighting. Could get rid of the wall cabinets and eliminate most shadows. Or move them up higher...

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, it could help, and also a lot of people don't like the look of under cabinet lighting, or the extra cost.

[@electricianron_New_Jersey]

Consider the beam spread of the light. Plan and measure accordingly.

[@jeffostroff]

Yes they have charts for that

[@guzman9011]

I put my lights too far from the cabinets and when I’m using the sink all you see is a huge shadow from my head lol

[@jeffostroff]

how far away did you place the lights from the cabinets?

[@Hector-cn3rv]

does the 36" rule also apply for living room applications?

[@jeffostroff]

I think we need to experiment in each room we are planning this for. I am about to do this in a friend's living room where there are no ceiling lights, and will install wafer LED lights. We might try to wire one up and see if there's any difference in lighting and shadows when we place them over the couch. They may want good task lighting, and some couched are far from the back of the couch to the front. Where will we be sitting? How far is our seat from the wall? Best to wire one up to an electrical cord and move it around.

[@Hector-cn3rv]

@@jeffostroff Makes sense, Thanks for the response!👍

[@fredgarvinMP]

@@Hector-cn3rv Absolutely not. If you put your canless LED lights too far towards the center of the room you won't get any light bouncing off the walls. Without seeing the size of the room I would say around 24" off the corners. Source: I'm an electrician.

[@ChronicKPOP]

20min of... 36" from back wall :) I think I got it now

[@ndowroccus4168]

alphavortex1 😂😂😂😂 Right? WOOOOOOW! That video should have been 1min long. The easiest lights to install, and this guy pats himself on the back for being “always right” in his own world.

[@visackkhemmanyvong4577]

I have a question does Condon have ceiling like with 2 x 4 drill in the concert. I wanted to recesses light in my Condon that was build 1984. Thank you

[@jeffostroff]

If your kitchen was built in 1984, it might be very much like this kitchen was. This has a cement floor above us from the floor above us. If you are the top floor, you might have a crawl space with studs, not sure. See our other video "How to Raise Kitchen Ceiling Height, Install LED Wafer Lights, Drywall " kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXuri5KJbspmbrc

[@NIAtoolkit]

During my next kitchen remodel, I'll make sure to consult an IALD Professional Lighting Designer

[@margaret2064]

Hello Jeff, I have Kitchen and Dining Area 18'0*14'10 How many LED lights do you recommend?

[@jeffostroff]

that is not an easy question to answer, it really depends on what light you buy, how many lumens, what the spread of the light is, best thing to do is try to place some lights on the ceiling and test out spacing and number of lights. Could take several hours of work, but will be right in th eend.

[@margaret2064]

jeffostroff thank you

[@normmiller5317]

What Watt are you using? We bought about 7 for our kitchen that are 60W and it seems dark. Kitchen is about the same as yours maybe a bit longer

[@jeffostroff]

Norm the wattage doesn't tell you how bright your light is going to be with these LED lights. It is the number of lumens unfortunately I cannot remember how many lumens we had on those lights. Also if you get warm white lights they will not be as bright as the daylight white lights are for the same wattage so those are things to look at also how wide is the cone of the light if you have one that's purposely spreads out a wide cone of light it will be a little darker down on the counter then one that has more of a focused beam with period so there really is a lot to go into each of these lights and which ones you get and unfortunately too many people just grab whatever is on the shelf and don't give it another thought. As we get to age 50 and plus we need twice the amount of light is somebody with 25 years age.

[@andruandspanky]

I've found in a lot of houses there are beams in the ceiling that are 3 feet from the wall.

[@jeffostroff]

Yes, on those you may have to come in to about 30" from the wall. This is a good compromise between my numbers, and those who think you should only be 24: from the wall.

[@ndowroccus4168]

Andrew Ayandess or upstairs bathroom pipes, venting, 16”, 16”, 16” oh my! Hope that 6” light hole isn’t imbedded into that beam!

[@tiremaninc]

I install under cabinet lighting so I don't have any Shadows under my cabinets

[@jimpintchuk8058]

There is also the issue of balanced lighting in the rest of the kitchen. I’m just getting ready to place my can lights and reviewing recommendations to get the best placement. I think I will go with the 36” recommendation and also have under cabinet lights which I had planned on anyway. PS. I see nothing wrong with using full side cans when you have the access. Virtually all the cans are insulation rated anymore especially when using LED’s that don’t degenerate heat. Of course check your specific cam ratings before you install them. Good is using. Thanks

[@jeffostroff]

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!

[@jaimemacias2139]

Cabinet lighting will clear up that dark spot issue

[@jeffostroff]

Not in many people's budgets

[@AShorewalker]

Helpful video and comments. Thank you.

[@hotsaucehimself]

I’m a builder, should I put the lights 18” off of the wall so they create hot spots on the cabinet?

[@jeffostroff]

I think the 24" to 36" range is best.

[@beenay18]

is there a videos for the outlets and switches too?

[@jeffostroff]

If you go to my videos tab then look for playlists, You'll see my playlist that says the best of electrical and outlets and switches and stuff like that it will be in that folder of all my videos that I've made for electrical

[@justinbinaesq.7713]

We have 16’ ceilings in our living room. What color, lumen, and spread would you suggest for our recessed LED lighting (4”)?

[@jeffostroff]

I would use 3000 Kelvin. It's hard to tell color and spread without looking at the spec for each light. You might have to buy a few, try them out, if your don't like the spread, take them back and try others. If you can get a light meter for LEDs, measure the ft candles on the counter, and shoot for at least 50.

[@iandavis1355]

Will the person's shadow, if working on a counter, be an issue?

[@TheBrownSys]

Is it 24"/36" to center of light or edge of light?

[@standummy1208]

Q1:How to run cable from basement to the second floor with little drywall and brick broken? This is used for out side cameras installations Q2:Why can we not install 24vdc or 12vdc pot lights for residential in a finished house ? we can use small wires, The small wires, which is categorized Low Voltage Wires, are easy to run.

[@jeffostroff]

See if there are any other vertical pipes, ducts, or wires going up from basement and fish it through. Otherwise you have no choice but to slice into the drywall, I have done that many times.

[@teeanahera8949]

3:10 my first time watching and thanks for the nice introduction….. just had a kitchen remodel, all your measurements are in imperial so I am not sure what they mean, you should realise that the US is now the only country in the world that uses imperial measurement, Liberia and Myanmar, the two others are converting to metric. Anyway you said a shadow would be thrown over the benchtops if you had your downlights a few inches from the wall. As a benchtop is 600mm wide there is no way anyone’s head is going to be throwing a shadow from those lights above. My new lights are about 250mm from the wall and throw an unobstructed light onto the benchtop, they are after all, in front of your head. The lighting is perfect. In my country the lights are similar LEDs to yours but no transformer, they each have a 240v plug and plug into a socket in the ceiling space. They’re wi-fi and are controlled by my phone, tablet and laptop. Each has a schedule so they turn themselves on and off at defined times. So I’m gobsmacked that you think lights should be so far way from the wall that WOULD guarantee throwing a shadow over benchtops.

[@UncleFjester]

Everyone is over thinking this

[@viru487]

thank u, i needed this..

[@cesarcacayan6916]

I don’t know if i have to follow your logic, mine is to locate it about 12 inches in front of cabinet to focus the light at center of counter which is 24 inches deep. You want to light your working counter surface. At 36 inches from face of wall, center of light is on top of your head and not your surface, from your head you are casting shadow of yourself.

[@jeffostroff]

Either situation will work I have done both

[@lucarenzi8033]

As said before from another user, be careful because this solution works until the kitchen remains unused. If a person is standing and working in front of the cabinets he is going to create a shadow in front of himself with his own body, because the ceiling light is located behind his back. I'm not an electrician but this is just clear logic... undercabinet lights seems to be the only solution to solve this shadows problem.

[@jeffostroff]

You need to see or follow up video to this that debunks some of what you're saying. Some of you erroneously think that the light is behind you, when ti is not, it is more like beside you. Second, it does not cast a dark side of the moon shadow on the counter. See how we test out this kitchen after the lighting was finished. "How to Measure LED Kitchen Lighting, Ideas, Design Practices " kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c

[@lucarenzi8033]

@@jeffostroff In this specific kitchen case, it all works fine because, as you said, you have the lights more "beside" than "behind". But maybe for another kitchen case the "rule of the 3' feet" alone is not going to work as well.

[@larrys2080]

Nice. What color temp do you suggest in homes ??

[@jeffostroff]

I prefer 3000K, it is still a slightly warm but bright light, as opposed to 2700 K, which i way too yellow and depressing for me. these lights here are 3000K

[@RobManser77]

I'm interested by the 3' and not 2', thing. I'm planning kitchen lighting for the first time and most websites say you want the lights at 2'. Apparently they shouldn't be behind you, so they cast a shadow onto the worktop, and not too far in front of you either, so they're too close to the wall units as you mention. Here in Europe at least, worktops are 2' deep, and you typically stand about 2-6" back from the worktop when preparing food, so I'd have thought above the edge of the worktop, above your hands, would be ideal? 3' will surely be behind you, casting a shadow?

[@jeffostroff]

36 inches off the wall is not so far behind you because when you stand in front of the counter you're pretty much at 30 inches anyway so this is really only 6 inches behind you so the best thing to do is to make a mock up and hang it from the ceiling and see what kind of shadowing you get and whether it causes any issues for you. You should be able to move this fixture all over the place and test different placements on the ceiling

[@rsinss]

Jeff...enjoyed your video(s). They helped me a lot to plan out my kitchen lighting project. The Amazon link that you provided for the wafer lights is for a 4" wafer but they sure do look like they are 6" in the video. What size wafers are in the video?? Thanks.

[@jeffostroff]

Nope, they were exactly 4" wafer lights in the video. They may look bigger due to the bezel, but I believe they measure across the diameter of the light opening, and not the diameter of the bezel.

[@gamerclownz2783]

Would you recommend to always stick with 3 feet from wall? I am currently under remodel and the contractor who is also my neighbor recommended to go further out by the fridge because how close it is. The setup is similar to your but we also have a pantry next to the fridge which is about 18 inches so the light in front of fridge may not shine any light on the counter anyways. My concern is that the other light which does light up the cabinet will also be 4 feet away from that same wall to keep things in line. Will 4 feet away be ok to light up or will the counter also be dark on the other side of the room?

[@jeffostroff]

Awesome question. I think that sounds reasonable to try 4 feet. There's a couple of things you can do here. On my last kitchen that I just did a few months ago in my other flip condo, we simply got a 2 foot long ceiling light from Wayfair, and it looks like a short fluorescent light fixture, but it was really and LED fixture that had 2 rows of LED chips inside it and once you slide the lens on, looks like a modern design fluorescent light. That single 2 foot long LED fixture lit the whole kitchen and left no dark shadows under the kitchen cabinets. Another thing you can do is use the 4" LED wafer lights like I used here, try them 4 feet from the wall, and just connect them up first before you cut any holes in the ceiling, and see if the 4" wafer lights like I used will work, see if they throw enough down light to the back of the counters, and light them up enough. If they are not strong enough, or don't have enough reach, try the 6" version. You need to really look at the boxes on these, and see how many lumens these lights put out. So suppose the 4" is not enough, but the 6" is too bright, then you use a dimmer switch to control how bright they get. Lastly, consider a task light directly over the sink firing straight down. I could not do one here because I have that horizontal cabinet there above it, with that small kitchen I was maximizing storage space.

[@gamerclownz2783]

I think the light choosing option has already sailed :) I already purchased 4 4inch LED recessed lights for the kitchen. I am still unsure if I should stick to 3 or 4 feet of that one wall. I do not have the time to start shopping for new lights unfortunately nor do I have the energy.

[@jeffostroff]

Just wire one up and hold the light flat and pointing downward on the ceiling in the spot where you want to mount it and see how the light dispersion looks.

[@deltaco417]

sorry jeff but you are wrong , i was always taught ,and by more than one lighting designer that you place your lights so that they shine down on the counter and floor in front of it "usually 2 feet from the wall", this is general lighting which when you walk into the kitchen will provide sufficient general lighting not only for cleaning but also will light up the work space on the counter. The space under the cabinet is not really ever used to work on , more so to place a cook book perhaps which then would be illuminated by undercabinet lights . In this day and age very few people dont want under cabinet lights especially with the newer led tape lights that install so easily and inexpensively. The system you are using is more for a living rm , den, or playroom. And by the way the recessed lights installed in an insulated attic space must be type IC these are used for "in contact" with insulation and are code compliant. The "firestarters " you mentioned were most likely installed by some handy man or diy'er who didnt know what he was doing. All this being said a lot of times the old style recessed with the cans could not always be installed symmetrically as you can now with the wafer lights due to the structural barriers present in ceilings and or attic space.

[@10tenman10]

Good advice. I'm thinking that a strip of led lights on the top of the cabinets would have been nice (getting rid of the shadow).

[@jeffostroff]

My preference is crown molding, but it was not in the budget for this low priced condo.

[@BadWeatherfreak]

I need to put some light on my walk in shower. Is a small shower 5x2.5 feet. I want then day light. How many do I need and what size?

[@jeffostroff]

I think one flush mount LED light would do fine, you can experiment with 2 lights if you like. Just make sure both are IC (Intimate Contact) rated, and they MUST be rated for wet areas per National Electric Code, very important, if the box does not say approved for wet areas, then it is not, and you can't use that light.

[@BadWeatherfreak]

@@jeffostroff what size?

[@aviatorpilot21]

What if you have deeper upper cabinets, such as 15” deep? I assume you still put lights 24” in front of the cabinet, thus placing them it 39” from the wall?

[@jeffostroff]

Well, in your case, you would have an issue because the counter top is still 24" deep, so if you moved the light out to 39" from the wall, this means you are moving it 3" further from your counter, which is already at a disadvantage. So in your case, I would experiment with leaving it at 36". BTW, good thing you asked this question, because tonight at 7:30 PM is the live premiere of our latest video, the sequel to this video, which we show you how to measure light output at different parts of your kitchen, and you can see the effect of distance of the lights on the light intensity readings. Click on this link and click the bell icon on the video to be alerted when it launches live with Q&A tonight: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaqmattYrp9n7c. If you can't make it live to the premiere, then you can of course watch it any time.

[@Cookefan59]

Loved the video. These lights are awesome. What would you suggest for a ceiling that is slightly angled/sloped? Are there adapters for these that retain that C1rating for contact with fiberglass?

[@jeffostroff]

Most of the lights like these will work on an angled ceiling. I would make sure they are I.C. Rated, which means Intimate Contact with insulation, and make sure they have a gasket so when they are installed against the ceiling, they seal any air gaps to prevent heat or AC loss.

[@madeleyinc]

Just to clarify, how close to cabinets do i install my lights.

[@jeffostroff]

Most of the lighting prose say 24" off the back wall for task lighting over the cabinets, which is 12" in front of cabinets. I like to also have some 36" off the wall to prevent harsh shadows and dark lighting under the cabinets on the counter due to harsh shadows cast by the lights being only 12" in front of the cabinet