KMT 110 - DIY Tormach touch probe tips

I use the Tormach passive touch probe to zero all of my offsets, it's an awesome tool that I use literally every day I'm running the mill. Except that mistakes will break the tips very easily! This video shows how I make very low cost replacement tips.

[@artmckay6704]

Wow, that's some money saving advice! Thank you! :)

[@JanBinnendijk]

Try ITP probetips, they're way less expensive.

[@JonesAndGriesmann]

To glue Ruby to metal you need UV glue from C R Laurence. It cures instantly with UV light and the Ruby will never come off

[@partisanguerrilla3167]

Thanks John for the fantastic details. I gained much from this vid. Well done on the improvements on the KMT unit as well. Have fun at the knife show!

[@TomDetka]

I work at a ceramics manufacturing plant we drill stuff all the time in that ceramic material. You need a diamond abrasive drill bit. Preferably a core drill type, and lots of coolant. It does not need to be high pressure just something to wash away the dust the drilling creates. I would suggest using a manual machine with good feel until you kinda get the hang of it. If you want to use the cnc your peck cycle is going to be way smaller and slower than your used to. I would try pecking at 0.0005 - 0.002 with a feed of about 0.0005 per rev. It would be even better if you had the drill on something like a spring loaded center to even out the pressure. Your main enemy is over loading of the diamond and second heat.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Tom Detka Great tip! Thanks for sharing it so that everyone can benefit from your knowledge. I have sanded this type of ceramic before with diamond stones, works great.

[@dexon555]

Your mechanical talents have no limits. Awesome videos guys.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

dexon555 Awwww shucks. Thanks Dex!

[@Hirudin]

I had the Tormach Passive Probe as well but since I was using it on my Novakon I didn't have that cool calibration routine to help me with calibration. One thing I found, though, was that the adjustment screws were only *predictable* when they were *tightened* but were exceptionally unpredictable when being loosened. Loosening was basically a crap-shoot. Damn backlash! To get around this I stuck some pieces of rubber next to the screws between the main housing of the probe and the bottom plate. These pieces of rubber basically put preload on the adjustment screws to get rid of the backlash. It worked very well and cut the calibration time down significantly. Once I got the calibration finished using the pieces of rubber, I'd tighten-down the locking set screws, give the probe one more test run, and call it done. I didn't have any small rubber o-rings so I just cut up some larger o-rings and stuck them in around the screws. I think small, somewhat thick o-rings would work even better. Another thing that could be good would be an o-ring with the same diameter as the housing; it would even help seal out debris. If anyone's curious, you can see the o-ring pieces sticking out of the probe in this video... (they're visible at the very beginning, first few seconds) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqu7m2qCiZqEbMk

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Hirudin That's a wonderful tip! I've noticed that too, the screws are predictable when tightening but not when losening, and tightening the final screws could throw it off. Sometimes I could just tighten the plate screws more and it would help.

[@GMadeCNC]

Great video John been waiting for this one thanks!!

[@3000gtwelder]

Love your knives, I'm a machinist also.

[@kennethkustren9381]

Why are they not made of Spring Tempered Wire ?

[@twinstaged]

might have been said in other comments but you can use pure tungsten (green color band) electrodes for tig welding. Can get it locally too. Brittle stuff and pretty uniform.

[@zilogfan]

John, centering takes 5 min and is accurate to .0001. set a .0001 test indicator on the side of the ball. Rotate it using the pully while observing, loosen and tighten high and low side until you are spot on. It is crazy fast and always nails it for me. pleasure meeting you at tormach! thanks for the fixture talk.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+Eric Nary Great meeting you too! I've tried that method but couldn't quite figure out the adjustments easily, so I just went back to the long time consuming method haha (maybe not the best decision LOL).

[@GregsGarage]

Great tut man. I don't own one of these things, but still watched the whole thing. I suspect this can apply to other projects as well.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Greg's Garage Glad to share Greg! I know it's a pretty unique topic, but yeah hopefully people can learn a specific weird aspect and apply it to something else.

[@1AB09CC3]

for the dial test indicator tip i suggest you to go for the ones with a lever and get one with a long lever to get a really low measuring force at the levers end.

[@eformance]

You should drill 3mm holes in a plate, then super glue the balls into the holes, then mill the pocket and use a torch to free the balls. If you don't get the hole perfectly centered, you will have a lot of absolute error. The milling will be relative correct, but absolute incorrect because the center error in the ball. Also, the error will be different every time you put the probe in the spindle, because the tip isn't perfectly centered. A lathe is a much better tool for drilling the center of the ball.

[@Hirudin]

eformance The ball is centered by adjustment (mentioned a couple times in the video and then demonstrated for several minutes from 23:17 ).

[@helicrashpro]

For a glue, try using the glue that is used to glue a rearview mirror to a windshield. You can get it at an auto parts store. Its a small glass vial you break that causes to liquids to mix (reminds me of a glow stick). You would want to do a bunch all at once but you could do a lot with one vial of this glue. This glue would probably work really well with the ceramic balls and it's really strong stuff.

[@maikeydii]

Just a quick tip for you to try to make the adjustment easier in the future... Get yourself a 0.002 mm (0.0001") dial test indicator and use that to center the probe. (Just rotate the probe around as long as it reads zero) That Tormach solution looks just awful and tedious.

[@Hirudin]

I recently had to replace my Renishaw stylus; it was $140! (Free next-day shipping from MSC though, so that's good.) I don't know what happened... (I'll spare the details) Basically, after zeroing a part and having it come out wrong I happened to notice that the rear half of the ruby ball was broken off. The ceramic rod was fine. While I waited for the new tips to arrive I kept using the hemispherical ruby by changing my origin point. I don't know what you might do with this info, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.

[@ojohnnyo1969]

Ever try an earing ball, they're sometimes threaded. Or with a hole

[@FreemanPascal]

John, could it be that whoever makes the Tormach tips spot welds the ball on to the end of the carbide rod? I can image a fixture that would hold several tips and something that holds the carbide rods and just passes current through both sets when they come into contact. You could do something similar to the threaded tip at the top and spot weld it in to the screw.

[@jeffv9370]

Could you make a video on how to get started in knife making?

[@BigMjolnir]

John, interesting video. I always wondered how those touch probes worked. Figured it was micro switches, but the ball bearing thing is simpler, cheaper, and more robust...not to mention easier to repair. For adjustment, why can't you drill a shallow 3mm hole in scrap, then lower the probe and manually place it into the hole, having not moved the spindle in X or Y. This will eave it indicating off center...I.e. No contact in the balls inside. Adjust the adjustments until you have contact with all balls inside, and be done. You'd have to have the tip ball be concentric with the rod for this, or rotating the probe would change things. Or, key probe to spindle (internal on the R8, or with an external alignment fixture that you leave in place), drill a hole 4mm+, and write code to move left, right, front, back from centered on the hole (from drilling it....) and record at what offset the probe indicates a hit. Use that calibration info to adjust future readings. -- Mike

[@Impyman18]

I'm wondering if you could use a conical bore into some stock and rotate or run the mill at very low RPM if it would self center as it went down.. Have a hole at the bottom the diameter of the ball (think funnel) to allow it to pass through and confirm zero. Tighten the set screws when centered in the hole as well. Of course you'd have to remove the wires. You could use the Haimer and zero off the fixture you created to do this zeroing op for the probe. Thoughts?

[@Hirudin]

Sorry to do so many separate posts, but I figure it's better because they're different topics. Would it be worthwhile to try to score the carbide before you snap it? Seems like being able to get uniform lengths could have some benefit. If you could grind a little groove around the whole thing you might even be able to avoid having to grind it later (possibly being an overall time saver?). ... Just a thought.

[@imajeenyus42]

Hirudin Yep - little diamond wheel on the Dremel, score it around, snap it off. On something this small you could probably cut right through it. I do that when I need bits of carbide for lathe tools.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Hirudin Totally a great idea, I'll have to try that next time.

[@littlestworkshop]

The renishaw ruby balls have pockets in them for gluing purposes I think. Is there any way to perhaps automate the probing process a little more, you will know roughly where things are wrt machine zero so it should be possible and would remove *direct* human error.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

***** I do a lot of automated probing, sometimes probing up to 80 spots without human intervention. But if the probe sticks for any reason, then the automation could hurt you and cause a crash, or it'll just hang up and wait. They break for all kinds of reasons, manual movements and accidents is probably the most common. A lot of time you do have to manually use it, or at least it's very helpful and quick to do it manually.

[@3000gtwelder]

+JohnGrimsmo I've seen all kinds of Human error before haha! Ever see what happens when you turn the spindle on with an edge finder in at 8,000RPM? Damn Modal commands.

[@wildhorseinnovations6938]

Wildhorse Innovations now offers the Econo-Probe with a Tormach interface for $109.95.

[@jesusisalive3227]

nice video. have you thought about getting some hobby jewelry beads? they make them in about every size and material. they also already have a hole in them. Even if the hole isn't large enough it would make it a bunch easier having a starting point! just a thought.

[@3000gtwelder]

An easy way to make those balls on center perfectly is to clamp your rod into the soft jaws, and then use a end mill slightly smaller then your bearing and mill a hole into the soft jaws so that you have a half circle on both jaws to put your bearing into, maybe even with a ball end mill, then without moving your X or Y when you put your bearing in to mill your hole, it will be lined up on center.

[@Liberty4Ever]

Thanks for the interesting video. Someone should sell the $50 Haimer probes that break if you look at the cross eyed, for $100 for a pack of ten. Maybe make them with ball bearings glued to a ceramic rod instead of the ruby unobtanium frufru that Haimer uses. I broke the Haimer probe the second time I used it in my manual milling machine. Ironically, I think it'll actually last a lot longer in the CNC milling machine because I'm less likely to push the wrong button than I am to turn the handle the wrong direction. I've been thinking about making twenty Haimer replacement tips. It's extremely important to make them from a brittle material that for all practical purposes does not deflect under probing forces, and shatters long before the force damages the probe body in a crash.

[@EmperorDevilhunter]

Hey John, I next time try to grind a flat in the balls and just glue them. I finished today my homemade touch probe and made the tips this way, is quite strong.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+EmperorDevilhunter i did test out many different glues but they all broke very easily. Great to hear you've got it working!

[@DavidtheSwarfer]

Hi John I don't see anywhere on that screen to enter the length of the probe. If it had the length, those screw adjustment calculations would be more accurate, but really you need to turn them accurately. ... Soooo, if you made a collar to fit onto your Allen wrench that was graduated with 10 major lines and 10 minor lines between them, it will be much easier to gauge how far you are turning those screws. Easy to divide a 1/10 division by eye into 5 parts, giving you 0.02 'accuracy', better than guessing with just the wrench. If you made the Allen wrench part longer than the probe, you can make the collar big enough to put 100 graduations on it (say 100mm circumference, ~31.Xmm diameter). easy to split those graduations into quarters, by eye (-:

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+David the Swarfer The length of the probe gets measured in the offset screen, I think it's 5.xx" from the spindle nose. You're right that having actual graduations might make the adjustment easier and faster, assuming the calculations are correct. Ohh now I see what you mean when wanting the length, you want the length from the pivot point of the probe tip. That would change when making custom tips like this.

[@1AB09CC3]

consider to use tig electrodes. they should be cheaper than the 5 CAD per stick that you mentioned.

[@petevougiouklakis2105]

John... I was just wondering why you use an end mill to single point cut the Torx shape in the end of screws? It seems like a very long cycle and the tool life can’t be all that great. Why not use a Rotary Broach? You could cut that form in a screw within a matter of seconds.

[@beanxlj]

can you show some details about the plate with 6 balls on it? how does it connect the balls to form a circuit? and how does it keep the pin with 3 rods sticking out on the side center? I assume you want the probe pin to return to really center every time, right? Is it just the hole on the ball plate is exactly the size of the shaft of the pin part?

[@aHigherPower]

When are we going to see some Rask updates and production models? I so want one but outta reach of me. :(

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+aHigher Power very soon!

[@killving]

put a indicator on the ball rotate the probe and align it to senter. easy

[@rippsgaragetech9025]

You just saved me millions of dollars..... : P

[@JPapaPhotography]

Look into tongue piercings. They are about 10 bucks and include a ball thats pre drilled and tapped for a screw shank.

[@1000BARGE]

You have slant lathe..why not concave ends in carbide rod...centered and more gluing surface?

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+Gordon Waterman need some fancy diamond tools or goooood stones to make a dent in carbide. But yes that would definitely work.

[@texastad1989]

Just a thought, I know this video is old, but maybe you'll come back to check comments - if you modify a 3mm ball end allen key, that should be an easy way. I'm just now catching up on all your videos, started a month ago from KMT 001, and saw you already have a new DMG, but figured I'd throw this out here for yourself of anyone else who might want to know.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+Tad Anderson but an Allen key would be a hex and you'd ideally want it to be perfectly round so it could trigger from any position. Funny think is I just broke the probe on my Mori and had to fix the tip. I was able to use the original tip just a lot shorter shaft.

[@texastad1989]

+JohnGrimsmo very true, you'd need to turn it concentric! Side note, I am looking at replacing my mill. Do you mind if I email you a few questions?

[@CAULEYJR]

wouldn't having varying lengths make the centerline change? making the hiemer pointless.

[@Justinofalltrades1]

silver solder?

[@JohnGrimsmo]

ironlionkalo Solder could work great, if you can keep the parts aligned and keep the solder from gooing everywhere around the important side of the ball. You just reminded me that my original intention was to drop a tiny bit of soldering wire into the hole in the ball, shove the rod in, then heat it up, but glue works just as well and is quicker.

[@Justinofalltrades1]

i was thinking maybe if you solder a tiny amount on the end of the rod, then find a way to balance to ball and reheat for just a second or two, it wouldnt get everywhere and you wouldnt have to drill out the ball

[@TheTavares282]

JohnGrimsmo m

[@tat2joeelliott]

Just go to a tattoo/piercing shop and buy some industrial barbells. They are stainless and are generally 2” long. You could cut them in half and have 2

[@Daniel-vq9zb]

Wouldn't work beacuse you want the shaft to be made of a brittle material so it fails before damaging the probe.

[@jarisipilainen3875]

27:30 why not hook dial on table and put it on tip then turn probe and look dial. then turn your skrews make it centre

[@ottomotive68]

Could you just put a ball of solder on the tip? when it hardens it would be stuck to it and generally round?

[@JohnGrimsmo]

+Otto Motive solder isn't hard enough, and ideally you want something REALLY round.

[@ottomotive68]

I see. Thanks!

[@markrich3271]

John that rod is not carbide. Carbide doesn't spark like that when hit on a abrasive wheel . Take the back side of an old carbide endmill to a bench grinder you will see. Ebay overseas is known for ripping people off selling regular HSS as carbide . I found out the hard way. I learned to check spark long ago to verify carbide. Ive converted my probe to use renishaw stylus long ago . There always cheap on ebay with different lengths and tips for different applications.

[@JohnGrimsmo]

I just tried it. I took one of these carbide rods, a quality carbide endmill, and an old hss drill bit and ground them all on that same wheel from the vid. They all sparked the same. If anything the hss sparked less. If the rod were HSS it would bend not snap.

[@markrich3271]

+JohnGrimsmo Its very possible im wrong its hard to tell here at home. Here is a good link to understanding the difference. Carbide isnt magnetic either. Ive been ripped off my self personally . Any ways love the videos Good Luck. www.carbide-usa.com/tungsten-carbide-testing-resources/

[@shammient]

Oooooh, tap in a battery drill! The Internet engineering society will surely have an opinion on that!

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Sam Ohh dude, using a tap in a cordless drill is literally one of my favorite simple shop tricks. Once someone told me about it I hardly ever tap any other way unless it's production.

[@JeffreyVastine]

JohnGrimsmo instead of super glue why not try loctite? Peace!

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Jeffrey Vastine Yeah loctite could work, but superglue is faster ;-).

[@jesusisalive3227]

probably even better. half drilled. www.firemountaingems.com/itemdetails/h205548fy

[@aserta]

50$ ?!?! wtf is that piece made from Unobtanium?? Sheesh, that, is a trap for young players, if there ever was one. edit: glue araldite for metal and LePage's metal epoxy. Also, roughen up the steel ball on the side you're about to glue.

[@John_BP]

Make um and sell um!

[@PralloKallo]

i work with those Probes every single Day at work and never broke one in the last 10 years . Maybe you should work a bit more carfully