Knives and daggers held point up and point down - martial arts

[@MisterKisk]

I just want to say Matt, that I appreciate the fact that even if your main focus is European martial arts, you don't limit yourself to it, and that you express knowledge about martial arts from other areas around the world and don't express any sort of elitism or arrogance. It's rather refreshing to observe.

[@TemenosL]

Kisk79 +1. Well said, Kisk! Dogma should have no place in it.

[@tsgillespiejr]

Well, my father and best friend are both police officers and have been taught to handle their knives USUALLY in the point-down fashion. The situations they'd be employing them are similar to the one described in the video of being very close in already, possibly even grappling. The point-down parrying technique Matt demonstrated was something they both stressed when explaining this to me... interesting stuff.

[@zoll2000]

***** The Philippines for one. S.W.A.T. in the US have some knife training i believe and general police might too in some states, India, China, Japan, and i'm pretty sure at least a few of the countries in Africa do as well.

[@tsgillespiejr]

***** USA... knives aren't part of an officer's standard-issue kit, but they're strongy recommended. Not only for use when things go really badly really quickly, but they're also useful tools... Both Dad and my friend (weird coincidence) carry their 5-inch tanto-bladed lock knives in the pocket... ya never know!

[@tsgillespiejr]

***** lol Do you live in the States? They keep them in their pockets, so you wouldn't see them... like I said it's not standard so they wouldn't have it on their belts...

[@GunFunZS]

standingunder I've worked with and around LE a lot, and pretty much all of them have a knife or two on them. Usually a folder with a pocket clip. They also have an issued gut hook like tool inside the back of their duty belt for cutting the zip tie type cuffs. It's deliberately hidden in case they get tied up.

[@siddhantreddy597]

zoll2000 really i have never seen cops in india carrying a knife.They are commonly far from fit but can't really blame them their standard of living is pitiably low :(

[@Gongasoso]

Point up is good for closing distance, long range fighting, standing your guard and upwards stabs from hip level. Point down is good for close range, grappling, hiding your blade from sight (behind your forearm) and very powerful downwards blows from the shoulder. Point up is good for dueling, for opponents you want to fight with. Point down is good for surprise attacks, for opponents you wish to defeat at once. Overall: He knows, he is waiting, he saw your weapon, he is moving towards you -- point up. He doesn't know, he is not expecting, your weapon is secluded, he is standing still OR in a close enough distance -- point down.

[@knechtor5648]

The change from point down to point up probably came with the lowered importance of armour. To hurt someone in armour you have to stab with quite some force into the weakpoints, while when for example fighting someone unarmoured you can cut him. the dominant defensive maneuver in a knife fight are quick slashes that keep the opponent at distance while offensive maneuvers are predominantly stabs. the Point up grip is more suited for this kind of defensive cuts than the Point Down.

[@sparrowhawk81]

I study the "Beat It" style of knife fighting.

[@blueband8114]

Sparrowhawk This is thought to be the ultimate knife fighting technique.

[@abnunga]

Skallagrim made a video about "stupid reverse grip" in swords, and I suspect a lot of people extended that to shorter blades as well.

[@reddokkfheg9443]

Hopefully not. there are a big difference between how you use a knife or dagger and a sword. so i hope people are not that stupid :)

[@abnunga]

As much as we'd like to hope, we both know there are people that stupid :)

[@reddokkfheg9443]

abnunga Sad but true

[@TallSilhouette]

I always saw the forward grip as best for dueling thanks to its reach and fencing style, but reverse can be faster to draw, faster to attack (more angles from the elbow), more powerful from the shoulder, and more varied in the clinch. Both have their uses and the good news is that changing is as simple as a flick of the wrist.

[@mattbox87]

"as simple as a flick of the wrist" ... It's a fascinating subject and I'm completly on board with you there But I want to tell you that it's all really about the grapple And I myself have gotten into a fight with too much hubris and I bear a scar Study grapple... and always aim for peace, for you and them

[@d33b33]

Fascinating! Well, you use the point-down dagger in the weak hand, the point-up dagger in the strong hand. The control of the point-up dagger is required for parry and creating a space for the point-down dagger to slam in a good stab. Double edge or no, the point-down weak-hand could still deflect incoming blows like a buckler if the blade is held flat against the forearm.

[@natalierenderra5475]

I'm planning on forming a HEMA group at my University in America as a part athletics and part historical venture for the School to get into, with a specific focus on Longsword initially. What will I need to set it up as a proper HEMA group, what sort of cost range would padding and nylon wasters for sixteen people cost? Would we be able to use the existing Fencing Group's gear to an extent? And most importantly, do I have permission to show your videos on the grounds of Stancework and Safety videos for any new members to the organization? Any other advice you can offer would be excellent Matt, and I did notice you have a role in a HEMA documentary being produced and donated to it on Kickstarter. Hope that goes well too. :P

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hi Natalie - I think to begin with you would be best advised to just get some nylon swords and practice some techniques from books/DVDs at controlled speed. Save the protective gear and sparring for a bit later. If you can afford it, get some fencing masks as well - they make it safer and easier to practice the techniques and of course you'll need them later when you do start sparring. There are quite a lot of modern training books and DVDs available from places like Freelance Academy Press, Paladin Press, Agiltas TV, Wyvern Media and elsewhere. Hope this helps and good luck! Of course use my videos in any way that is useful :-)

[@zarlorz]

Natalie, I highly recommend contacting the HEMA Alliance (hemaalliance.com/) for great resources for clubs here in the U.S. For nylon wasters most groups have a very strong preference for the ones from PurpleHeart Armories (www.woodenswords.com) and the Darces might be able to provide a bulk discount if you let them know what you are up to (and they may also have a discount for HEMAA members, but I don't remember for certain.) Matt's stuff here is absolutely excellent, of course, but the HEMAA may also get you in touch with any local clubs in the area you're looking to get started in that might also help with getting organized and so on. Good luck with the club!

[@themantheycallPibb]

I have recently done the same thing at my university. It is so nice to see how HEMA is growing so rapidly. Hope it all goes well.

[@seanblanchard6497]

As always, a very good video. I've studied Filipino knife and they do teach both hand holds. They have different advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation you are in. Armored fighting would certainly change the nature of the fight since the "stay and distance and snipe" techniques used with an upward grip have little use. Thanks for making these videos. I always enjoy them.

[@grinofthegrimreaper]

What do you think were the main reasons for the shift from predominantly point down to predominantly point up? I'd say it has to do with the other weapons being used (going from arming sword to the rapier), probably for the different armors too, going from mail and plates to less-protective gears which required less power to cut through. What do you think? I'm no expert though, I'd like to hear your opinion :) You could even do a video on the subject I guess! ;) Keep up the great work.

[@grinofthegrimreaper]

Jonathan Allen Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking

[@PsylomeAlpha]

especially in the 1950s, most people weren't walking around with a ton of body armor on, and most modern knife fights are initiated by someone coming up to someone else, usually from behind, and stabbing them in the kidney with their knife. point up makes kidney shots easier and less obvious, especially to bystanders.

[@Robert399]

that makes sense, during this period there was also a general shift form slashing to stabbing weapons (I think?? correct me if I'm wrong) and point up is more useful for defending against stabs while the parry with the blade resting against the forearm is much better against slashes and cuts.

[@Nurk0m0rath]

Yes, I was also noticing how his dates for the shift toward point-up coincide quite conveniently with the shift in military tactics toward guns and a more limited form of armor. A dagger such as his second example makes an excellent optional sidearm where a buckler is unavailable and can be crossed with the sword in at least a few techniques. I'd be interested to see if dagger design determines the method used.

[@Theduckwebcomics]

"He slashes one way! He slashes the other! He slashes diagonal! He’s like connect four in dagger terms!"

[@Xenoraze]

Nice Hitcher reference there.

[@Theduckwebcomics]

Xenoraze :D

[@TheVanguardFighter]

can you make a video or series of videos going in depth about the use of the dagger, maybe showing some historical techniques and defenses? Would be nice to see.

[@kounurasaka5590]

Hey Matt, sort of jumping off of your last point about single edge/double edge, can you do a video hitting on the contrasts between each of them? For example, which is easier to use and which one would fare better in a general combat scenario. It isn't something I've really considered before, but I'd be interested to know why some bladed weapons like a falchion or great messer were designed single edged while more common longsword were double edged. Does one offer something the other doesn't?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Kou Nurasaka It's on my list :-)

[@kounurasaka5590]

Thank you so much!

[@qfromqanon]

Do you make a distinct difference between knives and daggers? I have heard multiple people claim that a dagger is a double edged short bladed weapon whereas a knife is a single edged. Others claim that daggers are just longer than knives and that they ought to be longer than the elbow so you can properly block with them while they are stretched over your forearm. Knives, according to those people, can not be used with the same techniques. What is your opinion on this?

[@smd883]

Hi Matt and thank you so much for your video's, I find them both educational and enjoyable. As you say in your video surely blade up or blade down is dictated by range. Further away blade up, up close aand personal blade down. It also would depend on if the person was wearing armor or not. It is all about practical usage Thank you again

[@autolykos9822]

There's another good reason to use "point down". Try concealing a knife behind your arm (remember, most people attacking with a knife aren't looking for a fair fight...). Then, switch to a position to attack with. You need to flip your knife around to get to "point up" (which costs time and you have to loosen your grip for a moment) - but with "point down", you're practically there already, and can stab immediately. In a dueling situation, I'd still go "point up", just for the extra range - but knife fighting is usually more "assassination" than "duel".

[@rurb7365]

I've been doing a bit of research into medieval daggers and seen some content on sword hilt daggers. I was wondering your view on them and the ways they were used because I haven't seen any mention of them on your channel.

[@AndrisStafeckis456]

Do You have any experience or opinions on the sai? I find it a very interesting weapon especially for a blunt one - it has a similar point-down grabbed position used for blocking and striking with the pommel and makes use of quickly shifting to a point-up position for striking with the tip of the weapon.

[@scholagladiatoria]

I don't really know much about sai. However, I have been told that they perhaps originate in non-lethal self-defence or police weapons.

[@zednotzee7]

scholagladiatoria That's the Jutte (Jitte) - it's a sort of medieval Japanese truncheon used by the japanese police of the time. The Sai are similar, but are a peasant's weapon derived from a type of plough of all things apparently, lol.

[@tsgillespiejr]

Sai would usually be employed tip-up to meet and catch an incoming strike... I don't have any formal training myself, but I can't think of a practical situation where using a sai point-down would broker any advantage... pommel and tip strikes, and weapon catches would both be deployed more easily and efficiently from the tip-up position... trying to do anything with a sai tip-down would be nothing but awkward...

[@xerkules2851]

standingunder You could still use it as a parrying bar or for hooking as Matt showed.

[@tsgillespiejr]

Xerkules okay, *besides* that! :p

[@brax979]

Hi, thank you for your videos. Can you suggest some book, detailing some knife fighting technique?

[@harjutapa]

Perhaps the change from point down to point up could be due to the increased emphasis of thrusting weapons in the 16th century? It seems to me that point down would be more useful to parry or counter cutting attacks, while point up would be more useful to stop a thrust.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Anthony Ridgway Yes, that's possible. I think there are probably various reasons that all add together.

[@harjutapa]

scholagladiatoria Oh, yeah, I didn't think it'd be from a single reason. Real life is hardly ever that simplistic. That was just my first thought on the matter while watching your video.

[@runkurgan]

Thank you Matt. As one of the persons that have asked about the reverse grip I must admit that I did make one confusion. I was pretty sure I saw a left handed bowie from the American Secession War that was made for reverse grip on Pawn Stars. But then I got to thinking and realized that the exact item was indeed a left handed bowie built for a leftie BUT what made it special was the fact that the guard it had kinda forced you to hold the knife EDGE up. Both points you addressed in this video. And I thank you for that! You seem to be a great teacher and to genuinely enjoy sharing your knowledge with other. And one more question. I read that knife fighters would sometimes reverse the guard holding the knife in the dominant hand and sticking their left in front so as to not let the opponent see the blade. Is that feasible or just mumbo-jumbo?

[@sheps5656]

Where would you recommend finding those 20th century to 1950's manuals on knives? Thanks!

[@GregTom2]

It really bothers me when pseudo-knife-experts tell you to always grip a dagger with the overhand grip. Sure, it has more range and is better for knife fighting. But you know what has more range? Anything else than a knife! If you get into a "knife fight", chances are you will get shot, attacked by a group, hit with clubs/baseball bats, or then your target will just run away, instead or dueling you like a gentleman. If you are forced to use a knife, you probably want to get close enough to make guns and longer weapons invalid, and you probably want to wrestle your target into staying close. Underhand grip is much better at both of these things. So while overhand is 'a better weapon', underhand is 'a better dagger'. Saying you shouldn't use your dagger underhand is a little bit like saying that ice cream cones that have the pointy tip are better than the flat ones because they're a less terrible weapon. Anyone who says that doesn't appreciate the real usefulness of a knife, and shouldn't bother using it at all.

[@Knight_Astolfo]

I agree; reverse-grip, power forward, cover your neck and pray you can get into their sphere before they know what you're doing.

[@xlstaticpandalx]

In many other third world countries though especially in Southeast Asia knife fights are rather common as well as in parts where in from where people pull knives and you would generally grab a knife because most people have them.

[@GregTom2]

Yes, well if you're actually fighting someone else with a knife, or someone with an effective short range weapon, like, idk a zombie with teeth, or a very good wrestler, then yes I would advise taking advantage of the range.

[@autolykos9822]

GregTom2 If the other guy also has a knife, I'd advise running. Most people are better at stabbing than at throwing.

[@ceomyr]

Well Greg, I think a lot of people who are experienced with knives may advise point up usage due to our modern day circumstances. Medieval battlefield circumstances can of course be quite different from modern day civilian ones. I don't think modern knife enthusiasts are talking about Historical martial uses of rondel daggers to punch into gaps in plate or into maile. I think they may be talking about fighting people in the modern day, and that you'd be unarmored and so would they. I think they want you to maximize your knife's range of motion deal with those who may try to grab your knife hand. I think that maximizing your reach makes sense in order to create a larger range of threat against grapplers. I think it makes sense to want maximized range to help cope against other concealable weapons (it's not likely you would have to defend yourself from people with spears when and where we are).

[@veliselimov9796]

Great video!!! I just want to say something in addition about the point down grip. The first time when I saw the practical use of point down grip is from a butcher slaughtering a bull. So his explanation is that the point down grip gives you much more strength and control over the knife. Maybe this is something a little bit off topic, but nevertheless these are pretty good reasons to use point down grip in a fight.

[@commando552]

Is there a particular known reason for the large disc on the bottom of a rondel dagger? I always just assumed it was to help retracting it (particularly when wearing armoured gauntlets and where you are thrusting it through gaps in armour where it is more likely to become jammed). Or was it designed primarily to lean against or push against with your other hand to increase penetration?

[@Vebinz]

Very interesting dissection of the issue. But I admit to being distracted by that unusual bar on the top corner of the wall. What purpose does it serve? Seems built into the house architecture/design.

[@JetConvoy]

Matt , huge fan of your channel!You are by the best in these subjects. I thought id attempt request: I was wondering if you could please give your thoughts as to why Eastern martial arts and swordsmen are more revered and more popular than Western in popular culture? Cheers and keep the videos coming!

[@0onpoint]

It’s not halakah approved.

[@galankaufmann]

One other advantage of the reverse grip is that it is much harder to be disarmed.

[@Atamusk]

It's pretty interesting to look at your free hand while you're demonstrating dagger maneuvers and seeing the hallmarks of escrima practice. Once you learn, it doesn't really leave you, eh? Great content and analysis on your channel, keep up the good work!

[@entropy11]

I'd say point up/point down has everything to do with armor use. Point down is probably superior in the grapple in all cases, point up has more reach.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yet some South-East Asian styles teach extensive use of point-down in a total armour-free environment.

[@benjohsmi1]

Also, quite a few dutch and german dagger sources clearly show point down use for unarmored fighting. Indeed some of these seem to be aimed exclusively at street-fighting where no armor, other than the occasional mail shirt concealed under a doublet would be expected, and this practice was probably a lot more rare than is popularly imagined. In most of the dagger v. dagger sections of the European treatises one would in fact be hard pressed to say for certain that these were for armored fighting. Starting out of range with just daggers, as many of these manuals show, isn't particularly likely when in armor. While the techniques could easily be adapted to armored combat I find it unlikely that they were meant exclusively for it.

[@timetuner]

Any thoughts on the karambit?

[@nikemozack7269]

Watch Doug Marcaida's videos for that.

[@timetuner]

Mozak Nekulai I know that he's _the_ karambit expert on youtube. I was kinda curious about what a HEMA/medieval weaponry expert thinks about them.

[@nikemozack7269]

Abraxian Absolution​​ You would've waited for his answer for ever. Matt, has a patronizing attitude about Asian martial arts in general, mainly Japanese. He doesn't know anything about karambit. Let's put it this way, HEMA is reviving and mixing systems from old European Masters, pretty much photographic manuals, without much explaining, & direct practical lineage throughout the centuries. That's fine by me, and I support it, but will take long time of experimenting to get up there, with the big boys. As for European knife fighting the only direct lineage is in Spain, (barratero), and Sicilian stiletto. 

[@nikemozack7269]

***** Yeah sure, however, all my comments are educated and honest. When someone refers to another country's Warior Code of Honour in an insulting manner, Bushido(Bulllshido), when he doesn't even know what info is in the books he endorses, or deliberately lies through omission, when he looks at a video, and instead of a flintlock pistol he sees a knife, and half through, oops, that isn't a knife after all...etc. you are telling us, that's not talking shit? Dream on, mein herr, and do what you do, I am happy for your martial choices.

[@nikemozack7269]

***** Why don't you go to Indonesia or Philipine, and challenge one of those karambit guys to a fight to the death, and find out what will happen to you, first hand. Just a reminder for you, Magellan, (rapier versus kampilan) was killed in the Philippines, then Mactan, at Cebu, in a sword fight, by their king at the time Datu-Lapu-Lapu.

[@Aldenwar]

Just the video I have been wishing to see! Great!

[@JackTheDeergal]

The rondels also had different shaped blade cross-sections

[@shoulung]

I was taught to use a dagger with the point down. you make large and small circles trying to slide and pull the edge across important bits. if the tip makes contact it will slide right through making the cut all the deeper. also the dagger is just part of the total fight. it has a lot more to do with grabbing and grappling with a knife rather than as you say, standing away playing west side story. I was taught using a Fairbairn Sykes dagger (ironically, FS teaches to never put the blade pointed down)

[@ilaninglis]

Thanks! I've been waiting to hear something regarding this matter :)

[@Arafax]

It could be cool to do a for-fun video about the best types of weapons for use in a hypothetical zombie apocalypse. Lots of considerations like ease of carrying, effectiveness at reaching the brain, staying out of biting range, maintenance issues, etc. Could be a halloween theme thing.

[@RobertoDonatti]

Gaucho knife fighting is exclusively point up. They roll up their poncho on the left arm and use it to parry cuts. There's no stabbing involved, only swift cuts with scary sharp knives. They preferred German blades like Herder or Tree brand. They tried to cut their opponent in the forehead so the blood from the cut wold blind them, then move in for the kill, either a slash at the lower belly (disembowel) or stabbing the stomach and reaching the heart. Knives are usually 30 - 40 cm long with one edge and a false edge.I witnessed a couple of fights when I was very young, but they were just first blood affairs.

[@tsgillespiejr]

That's so cool...

[@RobertoDonatti]

Not so cool, I was scared shitless!

[@tsgillespiejr]

RobertoDonatti Noooo, the first bit about the technique and all! Watching a knife fight is terrifying for a kid, I'm sure...

[@tsgillespiejr]

RobertoDonatti Noooo, the first bit about the technique and all! Watching a knife fight is terrifying for a kid, I'm sure...

[@RobertoDonatti]

Yeah, it's amazing to see them use their knives (they use them for everything). They begin learning when they´re 5 or 6 using twigs with the tip blackened with soot, and they have fake duels. The guy that manages to leave a soot mark in the face of the opponent is the winner.

[@fillosof66689]

Please pardon me for such a nooby question, but when a dagger is used in conjunction with a rapier, which grip is more commonly shown in sources and which (if any) can be considered more useful?

[@scholagladiatoria]

fillosof66689 Blade-up, above the hand.

[@fillosof66689]

scholagladiatoria Thank you.

[@Tpunkzilla]

Now what i want to know are your thoughts on using full length swords in the reverse (point-down) grip.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Well, it was done sometimes in medieval Europe, but almost exclusively to stab it seems, not to cut.

[@yeoldegunporn]

In WWI spiked blades were taught to be held point down. The "knuck" knife is a very good example.

[@Booserati]

i love your videos but is there anyway you can cut down on the echo??? i know its the room youre in but what about a bluetooth headset or something?

[@spacewater7]

Actually I studied some Escrima (the Philippine martial art) and with that double edged dagger you could VERY effectively protect your 'live hand' and arm. The live hand by the way is the one that does not hold your primary weapon. In the style of Escrima I was taught the cutting edge of your blade when gripped always faces your knuckles, which would leave in a reverse hand (point down) the flat of the dagger against your arm, not the sharp edge. Try a few moves and reversals with it held that way, it's brilliantly effective. In my opinion much more effective than holding the blade so it faces the web of your hand.

[@dariogonzalez4041]

how would you hold your knife or dagger if your opponent has a much longer blade then you?

[@scholagladiatoria]

It depends on what kind of blade they had, what I had and whether armour was a factor.

[@dariogonzalez4041]

scholagladiatoria sounds like it can be a topic for another video there is a lot more to it then i thought. 1. lets say no armor on both and your opponent has a long sword. then lets also say 2.you and your opponent both have armor but your opponent still has a long sword. 3.i will imagine if i had no armor and my opponent both had armor and a longer sword that i will just run. :)

[@GregTom2]

I would avoid the fight if possible. If not possible, I would initiate the fight without any warning or provocation, with the underhand grip so that I can effectivelly wrestle him to death while staying too close to effectivelly get struck with his long weapon. If it's also too late for that, then I would acknowlege that my survival chances are not terribly high and I would go underhand grip again. Instead of trying to "duel", or stay out of his reach, I would try to dive on him as fast as I can and would start tearing him to pieces and wrestling him so that he can't back off to a range where his weapon is more useful. Of course that implies I would get hit once or twice before I get to him. Who knows, maybe he'll miss, maybe I'll block one or both slashes, maybe he will screw up his edge alignment, and maybe I won't bleed to death. At any rate it's better than staying where you are and waiting to die.

[@midnightwolf14000]

something you didn't mention but I think is a very big point is that it would be more difficult to parry with point down you can use it like a bar as you did yes but you move your entire arm and if they raise the balde a bit angling it more behind the defence it could get past your defence pretty easily in comparison to defending with point up but as you said both ways have been used and have purposes and I do agree that point down seems like something that would mostly be used at close range and has amazing power and versatility at a close range while point up is better suited if your a bit further

[@duksingchau8948]

are boot knives legal in Massachusetts? or is there a certain length

[@diktatoralexander88]

Rebel against the tyrannical law, and become an American, like your fathers originally were in that state.

[@Dingus-]

I don't know your thoughts on this, but its very common in film and from what i've seen in some HEMA vids *where shields are involved* (not all, maybe i'm just missing it), but it seems that a lot of the combat is "attack, parry, attack, parry..pause..attack, parry" with the attacks and defence being very separate movements. From my understanding this seems a very ineffective way to fight, i've seen a video covering viking tactics where the host was saying how the sword and shield would have worked in unison and an attack would rarely be launched one without the other *every time* and that the shield was very much an offensive weapon as much as a defensive weapon. So instead of "wait, block, launch attack" it would be "launchoffense/anticipatedefense" all in the same action, and that the only reason it isn't really common to see in film and reenactments is because it's very difficult to have the mindset of both arms working in unison. What are your thoughts on this?

[@SirKickz]

what hema vids are you talking about?

[@Sagnak91]

Your videos make it difficult to play d&d or watch movies without judging all of the weapons

[@gre8]

Can a rondell, in very optimal conditions, puncture a breastplate? Not saying they went for it, I'm asking just to know if it is mechanically possible to do with human strenght.

[@stpeeke]

As you usually point out, the situation is also important. In modern fighting, street fighting, point down is very dangerous because that way the knife can be conceiled. The knife can then be used in a surprise attack with fast repeated stabbing combined with vicously cutting the arms each time the knife fighter retracts the knife. As a policeman we had training from french officers who experienced vicous street attacks in the french metro stations. Very destructif and hard to parry in close combat. Before you know it, you are that badly cut that you can not use your firearms anymore. So tactics and distance are key as wel as special firearms techniques.

[@lloveAphmau]

You also need the edge sharp to cut the arteries and other bits as it goes past them, not every hit is a good organ hit but arteries and tendons are everywhere so you want it to cut those and not waste the opportunity you've fought hard to achieve

[@den2k885]

I believe that by extracting the word "power" at 1:53 circa and distorting it you'd sound a lot like Palpatine. You also know a lot about swordfighting. Jussayin'.

[@Oxnate]

I remember hearing somewhere that someone using a knife in a panic will almost always use it point down and stab over and over until the knife is taken away or the opponent stops moving.

[@YichengLi]

Filpino martial arts will also use the reverse grip for counter slashing the attacker's hand/wrist, i.e. "defanging the snake". You have much more leverage for a close in cut, than you do using a fencer's grip.

[@nathanwallacw1311]

/were rondel daggers known to not have any cutting abilities in some examples?

[@Dhomazhir]

Yes, some of them had triangular blades with no real edge.

[@dajolaw]

8:59 for a great summary. Both techniques have their advantages and disadvantages. Certain cultures, at certain times, emphasized one technique over the other, but never exclusively. And any student of knife combat should be well-versed in both. :-)

[@Jonobos]

I think the explanation for why both point orientations, as well as all blade orientations are expressed pretty much everywhere is simple. If you draw a dagger first and your opponent is unarmed you are a such a huge advantage that orientation doesn't really matter. Whatever you draw will do. If you draw and your opponent is already armed and you are not, you are already at a huge disadvantage and whatever you draw is a massive improvement. The controversy of point/blade orientation is (in my opinion and sparring experience) mostly conducted by people who don't really understand the nature of weapons combat. Outside of a duel you are drawing to murder someone in a back ally, or are drawing in self defense and you don't have time to worry about which way the blade/point is facing. Either way the orientation is mostly not the primary concern. In the case of a duel you have three main outcomes that are not related to the blade or point orientation. 1. You are more skilled than your opponent and you kill him. 2. Your opponent is more skilled than you and he kills you. 3. Probably the most likely outcome for the average bloke is that you both cripple or kill each other.

[@BE-fw1lr]

Informative!

[@CallofWar5]

please do a video on scythes!

[@bakters]

ThatMrAnythingGuy I have seen those videos and I was not amused. Unfortunately, I use scythes often. ;-)

[@Dies1r4e]

bakters What he said is true, the only reasonable scythe I can think of in combat would be a kama and they were only used because they appeared like harvest tools and not open weapons. they also were still far and wide outclassed by purpose built weapons. I know the idea of a "super useful combat death scythe" is very cool but the fact of the matter is they just didn't exist, as he said in his videos, they DID have war scythes but they were closer to other pole arms then they where a hooked bladed scythe.

[@bakters]

Dies1r4e Of course the general idea of the video is sound, even if slightly naive. Nobody in his right mind would choose a scythe to fight with if he had better weapons available. But better weapons were not available for the majority of the population. So what was wrong? From memory: 1. Scythes can't do damage, because the blade is too thin (something about whittling at somebody's ankle a whole day). Wrong. One slice and you have no tendons. 2. Armies were not armed with scythes. - They were. Then that they were not real scythes. - They were. 3. The shaft is awkward to hold and use - On his example it was, but it was a weird example. 4. You can sharpen the scythe with a hammer (I call it clapping) or with a sharpener just as well. - Wrong. You need both to make a scythe sharp, and both serve a different purpose. This is quite ridiculously wrong, but you are bound to make grave mistakes like that if you are not familiar with the topic. Anyway, I like Lloyd, I subscribe and mistakes do not bother me. It's just that not everything he says should be treated as gospel.

[@Dies1r4e]

bakters to address number one, if you have ever held a real scythe impacting the back of someones ankle in JUST the right place to "slice there tendon, if there leg was utterly unarmored would indeed be rather hard. that being said, if the guy was standing still, and he had NO armor on, and you got a good clean hit in perhaps you could, but at that point you could have killed him with a sharpened stick. on to point number two. war scythes are a pole arm that is no where near actually being a scythe, they did not have the crooked end typically associated with there civilian counter parts, they had strait shafts, and there blades where thicker and built for warfare not grass cutting. all that being said they were also extremely rare. please for the love of god do some historical research? point number three....that is literally what 90 percent of all scythes in the world look like. go to your local farming supply store, or crappy restaurant that has crap on the walls, and look at a scythe? where are you taking your example selection from, anime and grim reaper pictures? on to number four, FARM TOOL, I cannot express enough how easy it is, to use a hammer, to sharpen a scythe, as a young adult during high school summers I worked on a farm, all manor of sharp thin blades are easily taken to the "sharp enough" state by hammer sharpening doubly so if you need to just clean a bur or kink from the edge. please for the love of god know your subject matter before calling something a mistake. to deal with your closing statement. I take nothing anyone says as "gospel" I do research. I know its a scary and strange thing for people on youtube but take a moment, find some source material on the subject matter and read. maybe even take a few collegiate level classes on it. His mistakes do not bother me either, but I do try to inform him when he slips up, as I am informing you. If you require source material about the subject and are having trouble finding it on your own, contact me, I will provide it for you.

[@bakters]

Dies1r4e 1. No, cutting tendons is not hard. I cut saplings (it ruins the edge, but whatever, I can fix it). 2. You would *hit* him with a sharpened stick. Then the scythe wielder would kill you. Metal, you know. 3. War scythes - they are the same stuff. You visit your blacksmith, all of you, and he makes polearms from farming tools within several hours. For all of you! BTW - straight shafts are normal. Crooked, elaborate fixtures are the exception. No, not thicker blades. You had some proper polearms based on a scythes, those were a different story. Normal scythes reforged to go straight ahead - that's what actual people used quite often. 4. Man, I have currently two scythes which I use, plus some other I mainly take care of. Anime? No, not me. I'm not even sure what it exactly is (some Japanese comics style, I guess). 5. Hammer forging, or clapping (how I like to call it). Man, maybe I'm wrong, but you do not know what you are talking about. People bring scythes to me for clapping. It's a skilled job. I can explain it to you, but I will not argue about it. Ask, I will answer. But I will not argue. Oh, "for the love of god, know your subject" you write? :-) That was funny. :-) Now I read your closing remarks, and I feel like I wasted my time responding. Be respectful, then we'll talk.

[@aztlanmerlin]

What about reverse blade knives? I don't know how medieval they were, but they were used in the American Civil war.

[@chrospap1857]

I mostly agree with you but i think you should have mentioned of using both a sword and a dagger. I believe that this way holding the dagger point up is more useful because you can use it better for defense. I ain't saying I am right but this is my opinion based on my experiance.

[@UrielSemptim]

Reverse grip is actualy used in historical sources in both armoured and unarmoured fighting. It is not about the armour, its about the dagger. Rondel dagger is perfectly designed for reverse grip due to its long and massive blade and handguard. Even in unarmoured combat the hooking capabilities are irreplaceable. The reverse grip is perfect for stabbing and rondel dagger is the perfect stabbing weapon. No wonder it is mostly used in reverse grip. Most important about rondel dagger is, that it is perferct short weapon for both defence and offence, because of it great parrying capabilities, reach and penetration. That is why the manuscripts show us many examples of usage of a rondel dagger in unarmed combat. In unarmoured fighting you simply need something solid to stop the opponents attack and rondel dagger is perfect for the job as you mentioned in the video. I quite dont agree on the topic of the reach. There is only a slight difference between the "point up" and reverse grip if we are talking about reach if you know how to use the dagger. It is a great myth... and we all know that in unarmoured fighting the speed is crucial. The biggest myth of all is that reverse grip is slower than "point up grip". They are equally fast.

[@Rastafaustian]

This can't be right, you've contradicted my dogma!

[@iateyursandwiches]

Why is it so many knives in the Asian(particularly East) tradition have daggers without guards? Is it because of predominantly point up grip or the fact many (though not all) were curved? I have heard that daggers were often thrown as well. Is it even necessary to have daggers with guards most of the time?

[@movementwithtom]

It's natural downward force and aggressive action. In the styles you study do you see use of a smaller blade such as 3-7 inch blades ? closer to what we carry today.

[@camwyn256]

I like single edge knives. I subscribe to the school of both point up and point down. I've used both and have been known to switch between during fights. In very general terms, point up is for distraction. Hold it away from your body whilst the blow comes from the other hand. Or hold it point down and it's like a boxing match, except your right hook does a hell of a lot more damage. Obviously there are other things to do from such stances, this is just the broad generalization of at least starting moves.

[@Tyrhor]

I'd like to ad the fact, that rondel dagger was commonly used as terciary weapon for realy close combat, especialy in armour. That is for me the reason, why it was during 15th century prefered to use it with point down...

[@CavalryPiper]

in the modern U.S. Army manual it is blade up.

[@terrance888]

I like how you say controversy.

[@Cal6009]

Saying one style is better than the other is stupid, it's purely situational and both have their strengths and weaknesses. A true fighter would realise this, and strive to master both forehand and backhand grip so they could adapt to changing conditions.

[@jamesaritchie1]

Be very careful about using a double edge knife to block a long, heavy knife, a sword, or a club of any kind. You can still do it, of course, but you have to make certain that your technique puts the flat of the blade against your forearm. This should always be the case, but sometimes it's easy to get sloppy, and you won't pay much of a price if you get the back of the blade against your forearm with a single edge knife. You will if you have a double edge knife.

[@armynurseboy]

Both grips have their pros and cons. A smart knife fighter will know how to use both.

[@Kenicavus]

Point up and point down has it uses. why would it be wrong?

[@pedrofsl]

about armors, roundel daggers, ice pick grip and potency: it's weird. if the objective is to hit the weak points of an armor precision should be more important than strength. And ice pick is pretty bad for accuracy. try to hit someone's armpit in ice pick...It makes a lot more sense as a potentiating tool to throw to the ground/immobilize.

[@TtotheG]

I feel like for the average Joe vs sketchy Joe knife fight the range and maneuverability of the point up grip is the clear winner.

[@barrysmith1202]

in FMA, there isn't enough academic inclination to explore WHY point up or down (not today, anyway)

[@douglaschandler9337]

Knives vs. Pistols in Texas. Each US state has different rules on carrying a weapon. Texas is kind of weird in that if you have concealed handgun license you can carry a knife, but if you use a knife you more likely to face trouble. A pistol is regarded as a defensive weapon were as a knife is regarded as an offensive weapon and indicates a desire to do harm. Double edged knives are right out. Bowie knifes are not allowed, dirks, and etc. also. Texas has an allowable blade length of 5 inches but most fixed and folding knives are at 4.5 inches to reduce the chance of "field" justice. A lot of police officers carry knives for utility, to cut safety belts, or to attack the fingers of someone who has grabbed them and is attempting to get their holstered pistol

[@edi9892]

i guess that long bladed daggers are more used with their points up.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Rondel daggers often have very long blades and are used predominantly point down.

[@lancerd4934]

I was going to say that I think there is a certain amount of length required to take advantage of the point down technique. If the blade is too short it reduces reach even further and makes hooking and blocking more difficult. I would tend to suggest that without armour the point up method would be at an advantage due to improved reach and ability to cut at hands and arms. With armour the point down technique would be preferred as you tend to get closer, and you need more force to get the point through.

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

lancer D yet point down techniques are shown in a lot of cultures and periods were armor was not an issue as basicly no one had one.

[@MartinGreywolf]

Orkar Isber Armor compared to what? If you are in a cold enviroment, wearing a thick coat, that is basically padded armor right there. Our modern clothing is mostly really flimsy compared to historical stuff. Even medieval paesants were likely to wear two or three layers of linen and/or wool even in pretty hot places. Not to mention Applegates' reasoning behind showing icepick grip in Kill or get Killed - untrained people (according to him) use it, and I can't imagine any good knife fighting system ignoring this. In Europe, at least, icepick grip seems to go out of favor as armor, or armored duelling (a lot of sources deal with duels), go out of use.

[@joshridinger3407]

MartinGreywolf Not just armor, though. Point-down seems more popular in historical contexts where the fight begins at distance with other weapons, for when/if the combatants do get very close. In contexts where the fight begins with knives drawn (either as a lone weapon or a parrying aid), point up seems favored.

[@christosvoskresye]

"You remember the old tale of the English clergyman who gave the last rites to the brigand of Sicily, and how on his death-bed the great robber said, 'I can give you no money, but I can give you advice for a lifetime: your thumb on the blade, and strike upwards.'" -- Gabriel Syme, in THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY by G. K. Chesterton

[@TARINunit9]

I would think that a robber would need to stab without drawing attention to himself, and reverse grip's need to raise the arm would indeed attract attention

[@den2k885]

Sicily brigands weren't insulated delinquents, they were more like a loosely organized army of street gangs with control over the (very scarce and ineffective) guards of the kingdom.

[@ScottiDawg374]

What's this from?

[@christosvoskresye]

ScottiDawg It is said by Gabriel Syme, the main character in the book THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY by G. K. Chesterton.

[@christosvoskresye]

ScottiDawg The "old tale" may have been exactly that, but more likely it was created by Chesterton for the book.

[@vishmonster]

I've always associated point down for amour, point up for unarmoured opponents.

[@cinrunners2863]

a general rule i've seen is point up, slashing point down, stabbing obviously there being acceptations

[@eiebsrebla]

All this talk of HEMA confuses me because I don't know what it means and everytime I read it I think of a retail store in the Netherlands and other parts of western Europe so can someone tell me what it means😂

[@sunnylovett5533]

From what I have heard the controversy basically stems from the idea that point up is for stabbing up under the ribs. which you can't do point down. Good to know there are reasons for point down.

[@entropy11]

Nonya Bizness If they're leading with the knife, they don't know what they're doing. If they're leading with the bare hand and have the knife tucked close to their chest, point up, you could be in trouble.

[@Fastwinstondoom]

entropy11 A thousand times this.

[@wesofx8148]

Hiiiyaah!

[@WardancerHB]

I can second that.

[@justsomeguy3931]

I love how you allude to "West Side Story" as how most people thinks knives really work. It's the same with firearms, all you see is a bunch of threatening and then one shot where the actor makes a mean scary face for several seconds and then the pistol goes off (while he holds it at a totally non martial position) and then someone dies from a single hit of snubby .38 special after many minutes of built of tension, posturing, and emotion. It's like they TRIED to make shitty combat scenes. Stuff like this is why, to most people, weapons aren't tools for being used in contested actions where both sides vote on the outcome with their power level. To them, weapons are like BDSM violence toys for use on helpless people. Basically torture implements for people not yet tied down. They don't see their use for carry, blocking, or opposing other weapons. All they see is the effect on the human body it will have (they're usually wrong, especially about firearms, having NO understanding of terminal ballistics or even the actual wounding mechanism) and the pain they feel. Sheep!

[@ronalddavidleindecker3358]

Always bring a gun to a knife fight.

[@xlstaticpandalx]

Schola that statement is rarer poor I am a world champion in Filipino martial arts and yes we do use a down grip it's less common for fighting with it. It's really more of a stereotype from what got brought to The US

[@xlstaticpandalx]

*Rather

[@StuartMcDermid]

In my lineage of Kalis Illustrisimo, (Raymond Floro) only the machete is used in forward grip. The knife is exclusively used reverse grip. I think generalising either way is difficult.

[@armynurseboy]

Stuart McDermid I've seen Illustrisimo stylists use both grips styles. I prefer grip up with "normal" knives, and point down with Karambit style knives where I can use the curved blade for drawing rips.

[@kkkkkk1438]

ahahaha so some fighting anime where they fighting using dagger point down is actually viable

[@aptcmpasion]

right, historical context is almost' everything'; what you'll see in modern knife-schools is 'the challenge', i.e., 'let's see if your stupid ice-pick-grip really works', which, of course, it won't against an experienced bowie-dueler-stylist, e.g., the wrist-cut; also, decisive, can be hiding the blade behind forearm for 'ambush'

[@Dhomazhir]

Remember: There is no "one true style" like you imply.

[@aptcmpasion]

Aspie Sean right, i 'got' that a few yrs into the MA; the way i worded that did imply such ('theres one true style'); but everybody in any 'style' thinks they've got the 'one true style'

[@SirKickz]

Yes, the historical context is very important. Wrist cuts with a knife, for example, can't really be depended on if you're fighting during medieval times, because thick leather gloves with long wrist cuffs were very common. In fact a lot of slashing strikes were unreliable because even the every day clothing of that time was made of very thick material, and there was a strong chance you wouldn't be able to get through it. Contrast that with modern day clothing: Unless it's super cold outside, the only thick fabric anyone wears is denim, barring the occasional leather jacket.

[@aptcmpasion]

Graidon Mabson right; i was thinking todays' knife schools; they will often wear a thick leather wrist guard

[@Arthiem]

was anyone else worried he was going to stab himself throughout the whole video?

[@ofcaanwrath]

Bla,bla or massiv rambling of nothing. Moilinettes please! 3, 4, 5 , 6 and most of all the magic 7!