Knowledge Work: A Conversation with Cal Newport (Episode

Sam Harris speaks with Cal Newport about our use of information technology and the cult of productivity. They discuss the state of social media, the "academic-in-exile effect," free speech and moderation, the effect of the pandemic on knowledge work, slow productivity, the example of Jane Austen, managing up in an organization, defragmenting one's work life, doing fewer things, reasonable deadlines, trading money for time, finding meaning in a post-scarcity world, the anti-work movement, the effects of artificial intelligence on knowledge work, and other topics.
Cal Newport is a professor of computer science at Georgetown University where he is also a founding member of the Center for Digital Ethics. In addition to his academic work, Newport is a New York Times bestselling author who writes for a general audience about the intersection of technology, productivity, and culture. His most recent book is called Slow Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout. His books have sold millions of copies and been translated into over forty languages. He is also a contributor to The New Yorker and hosts the popular Deep Questions podcast. Newport lives with his wife and three sons in Takoma Park, Maryland.
Website: calnewport.com/
April 15, 2024
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[@justins.5222]

Just a note to say if you’re reading this… We love you Sam Keep on keeping on.

[@xyzmediaandentertainment8313]

Sam doesn't love you. Particularly if you're paletstenian or muslim.

[@cmhardin37]

​@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313he simply isn't a fan of Islam, a set of terrible ideas.

[@ScottPalangi]

Totally love him. He's one of the reasons I stay on the grid.

[@justins.5222]

@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313 *jihadist

[@Nikolajnen]

I love Sam, he genuinely seems like a caring human

[@darshnikdeep4650]

Thanks sir for making first part free. Respect from Atheist community India.

[@impermanent-being]

I agree Twitter is more like a digital colosseum than a townsquare.

[@Sheeshening]

That take is so poor I had to turn off. To believe Twitter to be a central entertainment platform more than a public town square where important matters can be and are discussed is so blatantly wrong I can’t imagine it to be more than a basic standards of reasoning defying post hoc justification for his displeasure of his opinions no longer being enforced.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

coming from a guy more sensational than the vast majority of people on there

[@jackasslawyer]

TWITTER is the wall in a truck stop bathroom

[@jackasslawyer]

Twitter is more like a digital truck stop bathroom stall

[@juniperpruniper4935]

Enjoyed the cast so much i listen to it back to back to back while working with my hands, thanks you Two.. Your guest should be granted an honorary MBA, if he doesn't have one already - w his other accomplishments. Host, some days, You may measure your importance far less than you have helped ppl. By a magnitude of 3 or 5. Sam, you're a huge help in the World. Can hear in your voice you're worried about Everything. Relax Buddy. Go on vacation. Then go on another one. Who cares what you think.? You have a body of work that speaks for Yourself over Time. Break. We have another four years, and you have no control over that at this point. Love

[@mateusshoeman2092]

Thank you for the scholarship opportunity. I didn't know it was possible, so again thank you. I'm currently in a substance recovery program unable to work. I'm very excited to receive access to the full podcast.

[@Brian-os9qj]

I enjoy what you are doing here. Thx Sam and his guest.

[@BooksForever]

I’ve never had a Twitter account, or Facebook, or anything other than a KZbin account to organize my subscriptions. I don’t even know what I’ve missed there, and that’s fine.

[@dannylifted9441]

I use facebook and instagram. I couldn't ever get into Twitter in the first place.

[@scotchbarrel4429]

Sam, ive listened to your waking up audio book from my local library, and it was great to have you narrating that book. So many great books ruined by poor narration, not with yours though 😂 Hopefully my library will get more of your books in. They dont havr any of Cals books sad to say. You can thanks Dave Pakman for inspiring me to read books again, hes always barking on about the imprtance of readin, so i took the bait, and now its part of my early morning routine, 30 pages a day.

[@juanReflex37]

Excelente, Sam Harris😊

[@patrickmeagher6914]

Just listened to Cal talk about decreasing social media use on Huberman, and now seeing this made my day

[@matthewkelso3280]

Excellent.

[@runthenumbers9698]

I'm currently trying to get my first job in Information Technology. Tough nut to crack. Every wants 20-year-olds with 30 years of experience.

[@cmhardin37]

My advice is to ignore the minimum qualifications and apply anyway. I got an accounting job doing that.

[@toby9999]

My tip would be to produce some work of your own if you don't have any experience. It worked for me. I've now been with a great software company for 20 years, and I was in my 30s with no experience.

[@runthenumbers9698]

@@toby9999 That's fine for coders/software engineers, but I'm going into IT. All I can do is blow all my money on certs (which I am doing)

[@runthenumbers9698]

@@cmhardin37 Oh, I've certainly been doing that. Word on the street is that I missed the gold rush by a few months and now the market is momentarily saturated

[@BigRedBugs]

@@runthenumbers9698 Do somethings you love , don't have to focus what your education background only.. ...just do some thing don't let time goes by, besides it's good for your mental health but doing some things you love might bring a success that you might not expect.

[@Elephantnegotiationsociety]

people would be shocked by how many minutes of my life were spent listening to sam Harris on the defensive about something that happened relative to twitter

[@Crunkmastaflexx]

Twitter conversation ends at 34:25

[@mnforager]

This comment saved me. Thank you

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

It's a shame Sam never read the rules of the internet before all this nonsense. Smart people figured it out three decades ago, he didn't need to reinvent the wheel.

[@OfTheGaps]

@@migarsormrapophis2755 I'm glad he "reinvented the wheel" so he could preach to others about it.

[@Arjun-eb1yc]

thank you

[@thesponge836]

Sam fell prey to TDS and all the toxic internet culture that millennials were immunized against.

[@Gsd112]

Sam you are the reason I went off IG. Never did Twitter as when I went on there I was immediately targeted by Trolls. I see similarities in all social media which is why the only platform I use now is You Tube as I learn so much here.

[@ScottPalangi]

Sam, read "Mastery", by George Leonard. You will love it and i hope your neuroscience background gets stimulated and you speak about the experience. Thanks.

[@maynardgent6708]

Working from home has existed since 2012 at least. I worked in the public sector and they hardly work at the cutting edge of technology. The fact it took a pandemic to make this the norm is a desperate indictment of how managerially unproductive we've become

[@crxspybacon123]

Sam do tell us again the story about leaving Twitter

[@sunnyinvladivostok]

I'm a middle-aged usa male, I've never used twitter, none of my friends use it or at least they don't talk about it. Is it really such a force as Sam presents it? or something just batted around in news and podcast drama? edit: what I mean by this, is that it seems to have occupied a lot of his head space, and I totally believe it, but is it similar affective to the average user? For example, I'm addicted to cigarettes, but I know its a me thing and not everyone else is. But every one on twitter has the relationship that Sam describes? edit #2: I'm also skeptical that Elon's behavior is because of twitter's effect on him. There was news about him being into actual hard drugs, which I believe are vastly more capable to alter your thought processes, motivations, and decision making. Wouldn't that be a likelier culprit than twitter? I get that it could be a synthesis of things, but drugs would be the weight behind it.

[@cmhardin37]

He ponders the smell of his own farts.

[@twntwrs]

Especially the part that he never tells us: that his departure just coincidentally coincided with the massive ratioing he got everywhere for his ever more unhinged TDS takes like he wouldn't even care if Hunter Biden had "the corpses of children in his basement.”

[@petermuller6359]

😂 Good one! And each time it becmes more credible. 🤣

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@sunnyinvladivostok and by into actual hard drugs, you mean using beneficial mild ones for selfimprovement causes? arent you on a sam harris podcast who has talked about the virtues of psychadelics? whats wrong with elons thought processes? outside of believing the climate change fiesta and rushing to marswith nonsensical logic

[@lunainezdelamancha3368]

Fortunately, I don't have any "social media life"😂....no Twitter, no Facebook, no Instagram, and no Ticktock! 🖖🌻💚

[@yeti9127]

This is what I was waiting for -a conversation between these two.

[@danielm5161]

The second half on his site is better then the half on youtube

[@Jules-Was-an-AnCap]

I don't want anyone deciding for me, what type of content is useful or important to me, at least within incredibly broad parameters. Companies can obviously do what they want. If one platform decides to censor, remove or restrict content I want, I'm fine with going to some other platform. If the ENTIRE MEDIUM by which ppl communicate, and share information nowadays, is over-policed, that's a problem. The marketplace of ideas should not be restricted in a free society. You can't take ppl's choice, on their behalf, to force them to avoid things like misinformation.

[@danzigjr]

Fingers crossed you will soon have David Graeber - author of Bullsh*t Jobs - as a guest on the podcast.

[@jmc5335]

That'd be hard. Love Graeber's take on the idiot centrists that Harris exemplifies right enough

[@rilesbronson7990]

Sadly that won’t happen since he died in 2020

[@bugonaykishig354]

​@@rilesbronson7990The other two comments look strange, because I looked him up, and he's infact dead.

[@apprentice0ne]

well put 6:41 - 7:15

[@parsafakhar]

4chan is great actually

[@TheKifster]

I think most of us agree on Sam's point that social media spaces are just unhealthy for both groups and individuals. But we'd be remiss not to mention the prevailing point of the "town square" argument by the center right in the first place - that (before Musk's X) conservatives barely had an uncensored voice and that the free speech "playing field" just wasn't even.

[@DamienWalter]

Cal and Sam together again, telling us how great it is not to be on social media on a podcast on social media.

[@IOSALive]

Sam Harris, This made me laugh so much! Thanks for sharing!

[@efabiano82]

I ditched all social media 8 years ago, other than using yt to watch videos. Good riddance.

[@craigmclaughlin1975]

The idea that human beings, without having work/a job to do, would somehow all sedicate themselves to something and useful (or, at least, not destructive) is one of Sam’s biggest blind spots. Douglas Murray, talking about Sam (in this case, Sam’s views on religion) made the point well; this way of thinking would be fine if it were Sam Harris’ all the way down. But it ain’t. And potentially a new blind spot appears here. I’m not sure it’s Sam’s, but he doesn’t challenge it. Whilst we are all no doubt better off, there is more wealth inequality. This is disrupting society. What does Cal Newport think is going to happen when those in the ideas industry are throwing Frisby on the beach with their kids on a Tuesday afternoon and those who don’t/can’t have that option are laying cement, or cutting down trees, or deep sea fishing. We’re not even talking unskilled professions here, doctors will be working god awful hours still. I don’t think this sort of inequality would be particularly well tolerated by society, rightly or wrongly. Jealousy is a huge part of human nature, it’s not going anywhere. It’d be nice if this could be addressed.

[@Laocoon283]

Sam is Cypher from the Matrix

[@BitcoinMeister]

Don't be an algorithm slave. Treat twitter pages like regular web pages and visit the ones you want. I never look at what Twitter serves me.

[@ChristineMontana-ut4zt]

Sam Harris that's what perpetrators do they hide and they do not reveal themselves

[@sigmsctt8130]

Can we have an honest convo about Pareto, & that 80% don't really add much😮

[@Paraselene_Tao]

Eh, I've come across the Pareto Law topic before, and I've found that it tends to spread a false narrative of how highly successful structures work. Moreover, I see highly successful structures as networks more than hierarchies. It takes that 80% of those who "don't really add much" to help make the 20% who "add a lot" highly effective in a network. Does this make sense? Sometimes, it's difficult to tally everything up in an accurate manner. Some kind of nuance is lost when we use the Pareto Law.

[@sigmsctt8130]

@@Paraselene_Tao Really appreshe8 ur take. I have come2 yin/yang the ballast

[@sigmsctt8130]

We're I 2 b a ship o state/Leviathan, etc. Hot air balloons require ballast...ded w8

[@Paraselene_Tao]

@@sigmsctt8130 Yes, perhaps ballast is a good analogy. Dead weight might give a more negative meaning to it. 😅

[@ScottPalangi]

I dropped twitter soleky because sam wasnt there; in retrospect i didcovered that what the wirkd thinks of me is none of my business (if i i tend to be productive anyways)

[@infinitevibes]

👁🌊👁

[@trystdodge6177]

I wonder how sam feels about Gen z not really giving a f about the big H. The times they are shifting.

[@madsbersangjensen1874]

"Hmmm"

[@Philb666666]

Ya think looking at a computer screen in air-con is lucky - Nope!

[@toby9999]

Relative to the general workforce / population, I count myself as lucky doing that. I've done other stuff, and it sucked.

[@Philb666666]

@@toby9999 Sorry dude still a No from me. In todays gender neutral, virtue signalling tripe where brains and ability and hard work are not rewarded All about ego and politics. Work is made up thats not real, no job satisfaction I do not want to waste any more of my life away. I am an old dude mind you

[@Blink_1984]

If you are done listening to conversations about X/Twitter, podcast starts at 35:50.

[@jamshedfbc]

20:00 Bret Weinstein? 😢😢😢

[@GH21012]

Been in IT for 20 years. Turning 40 this year. Note to the youth. Find something ells to do.

[@olaf3140]

Why?

[@lllllllllIIIIIIIIIIl]

Easy for you to say. Rather be a roofer?

[@ahmetdogan5685]

I dont need to pull the plug on Twitter, because Elon suspends my account every few weeks or at most every few months. Now i have opened my umpteenth account.

[@cmhardin37]

What could you possibly be posting?

[@ET_LWO]

Absurdity

[@gregoryedward6079]

Translation: He means "you'll need to pay" to see the rest of the show.

[@toby9999]

Yes, subscribers get full shows and other stuff. Makes sense given that he doesn't really on ad revenue.

[@gregoryedward6079]

@@toby9999 thanks for confirming what I wrote.

[@BotanicalBasil]

Pay with a few minutes of your time, maybe. The subscription is free with an email, should you need it.

[@daheikkinen]

What reason is there to believe we are, or will shortly be living in, a post-scarcity world? I blame Star Trek and Marx for this Kindergarten level understanding of economics. Please read Mises’ book “Socialism”. Thomas Sowell: “the first lesson of economics is scarcity. There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.”

[@pocket83squared]

Whoa, I'm with you for your question, but I can't see aligning Marx with that. _Star Trek,_ maybe, sure, but that's total fantasy; replicators and post-profit economies where people only _choose_ to participate in productive pursuits are things of pure ideal. But it seems to me that this 'growth will sort out our problems' thing is a way, way, way more Right-sided economic belief. Lefters will spare no expense for the sake of fairness and safety, but growth-for-growth's-sake de-regulatory idealization is the Right's pyrite. Take Musk as an example. Culturally, he's pretty Left-leaning, but not so much economically. He once claimed _labor_ to be the basis of any economic system, and as such, having more laborers could help us to (literally) work our way out of our scarcity problems through their additional innovation. But as you and I know, the _real_ basis of an economic system is available resource, and our resources on Earth are finite, no matter what technologies the future holds for us to discover.

[@ScottPalangi]

I wis i could a fly on the wall for all the conversations Sam is having in between these fuve stints where he gies quiet while the middle east is ramping up. Maybe one day the NSA will release all his communications in between podcasts. Thats the straight dope fikes right there.

[@samdg1234]

At ~ 15;20, Cal Newport says, "Do you find it surprising the number, I'm thinking journalists in particular, who very much dislike Elon Musk right. So they have a sort of moral personal ethical commitment to stop using his platform and ..." Are you kidding me? How much more pathetically partisan can one get? And Sam, as nearly siloed as his guest doesn't push back in the slightest. "I really very much dislike Elon Musk, so although I can afford a Tesla and they are (for the sake of making my point) the best by far EV, I will spite my face, buy a much inferior product." or "I really very much dislike Elon Musk, so I will ignore any new discoveries in space resulting from any use of SpaceX." or "I really very much dislike Elon Musk, so although I will have no internet access for the next year, I will decline to use Starlink which would provide that access." Could these guys introduce politics more thoroughly into their 'thinking'? I agree with Sam on a few things and am thankful for the clarity he has brought to a few subjects, but I am also aware of how broken he has become.

[@petermuller6359]

Musk really gets under the skin of these two guys. To make things worse, the "tragic addict" gets done 2'500 times more than these two guys combined - and he also comes across way more relaxed and funny.

[@pocket83squared]

The "gets done...more" metric of the musk club is a skewed interpretation of success. Neither do I drive a Bugatti, nor do I own any bitcoin, yet somehow I've still found ways to extract _some_ meaning from my tiny life, perhaps in spite of my failure to run multiple companies. We really need to lose this whole 'To the Moon' baseless vision of unmitigated growth as a virtue. Even though he's claimed labor to be the basis of our economic system (and thus more people would be better for us), down here on Earth, resource remains the _real_ foundation of value. And that is finite. Perhaps there's more to being "more" than fostering growth while nurturing a relaxed and funny persona; it _could_ be, even, that fostering restraint would have us last longer.

[@JD..........]

Gets off the topic of ex-Twitter around the 35 min mark.

[@Feel_theagi]

Was going to comment Sam needs to move on from the twitter, no problem talking about algs that drive social media but need to present something new

[@tap-a-dat961]

Knowledge workers need a real job again

[@talhendel4693]

Enough with this infinite discussion of twitter. We got the idea, Sam.

[@sigmsctt8130]

Sam et al in the safetyfied, nerfed, mommy bubble...gaia's a viktim😂😢

[@gordonbgraham]

Sam being hung up on Elon is like he's taken Twitter with him

[@jkczyz]

Tell me you've never been to a town square without saying you've never been to a town square

[@chrisocony]

Israel attacks the Iranian embassy in Syria in a grave violation of international law killing several top Iranian officials and Iran responds with useless missiles as a show of... response. And Sam describes the whole affair as Iran attacking Israel. Boy I am mad at Sam for this BS commentary on Israel.

[@ceili]

That’s just a typical day for Sam. Nothing new

[@dannyrenehan7875]

Sam, your a great mind but you opened this show with- Iran just attacked Israel, with no mention of Israels attack that triggered Iran.

[@ChristineMontana-ut4zt]

Sam Harris why are you not revealing yourself, and there's a picture that you claim is you that was taken years ago .why do you not want to reveal yourself? You talk behind a curtain or whatever

[@Mr911technology]

I am currently scrolling X right now. It’s necessary to me. Seeing real life events and showcasing how batshit crazy other people are that we share society with.

[@thesponge836]

Knowledge workers contribute nothing to society change my mind

[@gaylaaustin7468]

Cannot handle the “you must subscribe and pay” I’m out

[@SamuelSwaggerStep]

If you don't have money he will literally give you free access for life if you send one email requesting an account, all in the name of being able to have integrity and not being influenced by advertising dollars. I don't know anyone else who would do that. Sam Harris could be obscenely rich advertising and chooses not to.

[@jmc5335]

​@@SamuelSwaggerStepHe's already obscenely rich

[@SamuelSwaggerStep]

@@jmc5335 what are you still whining about? You said you “can’t handle” people getting paid for their work so I educated you that Sam Harris will give you a free subscription if you lie to him in an email and say you can’t afford it

[@crudecod]

I lost all respect for Sam in just months. Hypocrite!

[@Albatrossamongus]

Hands down the least interesting guest that's ever been on the podcast.

[@nektariospaschos4553]

So the juice decided to invade Iran, any thoughts??

[@gregorysgarrison]

Can we just be honest? You quit Twitter because you can't handle even the slightest pushback to your ideas. Your mods will probably even delete this slightly critical comment.

[@twntwrs]

Spot on, mate. The fact that yours is only the second time I've seen a post expressing this sentiment after Harris' podcasts reflects how the sycophancy of his remaining fanbois almost matches those of Jordan Peterson's. Harris only invites antiseptically curated bias confirmers into his echo chamber.

[@marshalmattdillon1]

Example?

[@nobusinessofyours1772]

"Can't handle even the slightest pushback" the lack of awareness here is hilarious. I don't think that's his problem. imagine the sheer number of people he's encountered that have given him pushback. Just consider the topics he's written about and debated on stage, and the fact you even know about him. Now imagine Larry and his boys at the pool hall saying he can't take criticism when they are the only people who've listened to each other long enough for a disagreement to even be possible.

[@dandybufo9664]

I can't read your comment about the mods deleting your comment. So much for the accuracy of your conjecture

[@gregorysgarrison]

@@nobusinessofyours1772 I agree. A younger Sam would have embraced the fight instead of retreating.

[@thesponge836]

Youre getting old Sam, the world is moving on and leaving you behind.

[@RealziesCuts]

🦍💥💥💥💥💥💥💥🚀 Thank God for Crypto 🥇

[@CP-nl2zb]

Sam is a World Champion Pseudo intellectual. Sammy The Pseudo Harris.

[@olaf3140]

Yeah that's what I like to call everyone I don't agree with too, not a real intellectual, but a pSeUdo intellectual, because I am the arbiter of who is truly intellectual or not

[@xyzmediaandentertainment8313]

​@olaf3140 😮 wow. Lucky you Mr. Arbiter.

[@Rabbithole8]

Considering that you simply hurdled ad hominems at Sam Harris is evidence you are ill-equipped to judge who and who is not an intellectual.

[@SamuelSwaggerStep]

I love coming here to watch freshman philosophy majors, Jihad apologists and conspiracy theorists gang up on Sam in the comments.

[@twntwrs]

They're clearly no match for Sam Harris's Zionism apologetics. Another reason why Hitch is so missed.

[@Hollis_has_questions]

You guys are talking about X, right?

[@someoneelse293]

I'm digging a ditch in the sun Sam.... my boss is pretty cool for a tyrant (sans lash )

[@k-dude4514]

God makes sense, you don’t.

[@brianeyre]

What on earth has that got to do with knowledge work?? Are you some sort of tribal “wedge” person?

[@xyzmediaandentertainment8313]

​@brianeyre im a tribal wedgie person. Basically I give other men in my tribe wedgies. Totally not gay btw.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@brianeyre qua

[@k-dude4514]

@@brianeyre Wah waah are your feewings hurt, pinko?

[@Antuan_the_Swan]

And the award for “Whitest name ever” goes to: Cal. Newport!