The Player Taxonomy (Errata Text)

[@matheusaragao7640]

The flamethrower bit was GENIUS! A really good way to explain these archetypes of players.

[@BalldoTM]

i came here to second this! If this was your original meme kohdok then it makes it even better!

[@codyjacobs6899]

Watching this a year later and I died at this part xD

[@SuperfieldCrUn]

A designer, an engineer, and a pilot. One to dream, one to build, and one to use.

[@Cimoooooooo]

Damn, that “Bimo” guy should start a KZbin channel! 😂😂😂

[@Melphisto_]

🅱️imoooooooo

[@clayxros576]

Oh. Oh I didn't even realize that. 😂🤣☠️

[@pyredynasty]

Solid timmy here. I once pissed off a spike at a Pokémon prerelease by not conceding because I wanted to see how much damage they could dish out.

[@bitsamui5104]

Solid Johnny here, I pissed off a Spike by playing a super super jank deck. I was trying something pretty weird that would either work out REALLY well or absolutely horribly. It was the latter and my Spike didn't even like winning so easily, probably cause there was no prestige/value in such an easy win lol.

[@rolvirata9003]

@@bitsamui5104 Or you may have cost the Spike tournament placement by not contributing to their strength of schedule.

[@WorldofTomorrowInc]

i pissed off a yugioh spike by playing older cards that were still legal but not used much, every attack he made or effect he activated i had a mirror force or a negate attack for. it took him like 3 more turns to beat me than it normally would have. and my deck sucked.

[@bitsamui5104]

@@rolvirata9003 Nope, our tournament didn't work like that. It wasn't even a tournament, it was "league" play, basically a handful of structured matches that had no real bearing or weight or importance. I save super jank for unimportant games and a more serious deck for actual tournaments with prizes or stuff.

[@afish2281]

I pissed off some Yugioh players by subverting expectations and playing cards another strategy would play while not playing that strategy.

[@woomod2445]

One thing you ignored about spikes, something very important, spike will play what wins, but there are card types they find most fun. Caw blade is a very spikey deck as it has a huge skill ceiling, and fact or fiction and brain storm(pre-fetch lands) are very spikey cards with all the decisions you have to make. Spikes don't just want to win, they want to PROVE they DESERVED that win.

[@Jerry4281]

My friends think I am a spike, but honestly I say I am not I've been in and out of metas because I didn't like certain decks in YGO. I love the synchro mechanic in YGO and I say, I like a more equal fair game, in my opinion when someone has a chance. Even in Weiss Schwartz I play a deck because I love the cute girls and don't buy meta ever for that game. In Pokemon I picked up a deck because the art had a spider man cover on it, which to me was like fuck yeah. I don't care about winning, and my friends says you care too much I don't want a fair game is all. If I lose that's fine.

[@afish2281]

@@Jerry4281 Yeah my friends think I'm a Spike when I'm more of a Jimmy. Yeah I occasionally play meta, but I always have some weird twist that actually trips people up; using the meta as a budget engine that gets out cheap cards people don't see value in. It might also be that I'm in a weird in between where I'm the weakest Yugioh player at my locals where I'm obliterated turn 1 every game, but will reduce a casual player to dust at a touch. That might be why people think I'm a Spike.

[@ich3730]

@@afish2281 "It might also be that I'm in a weird in between where I'm the weakest Yugioh player at my locals where I'm obliterated turn 1 every game, but will reduce a casual player to dust at a touch. That might be why people think I'm a Spike." That just means you are bad at the game xD Not good enough to compete but ready to grind little timmy xD

[@afish2281]

@@ich3730 If everyone at locals plays actual world championship level strategies and decks while casual players around still play tons of meta in very effective ways, even playing full on Dragon Rulers and Brave Engine, then I wouldn't consider myself a bad player. I would consider locals meta to be absurdly overkill with $1000 decks.

[@AirRideMaster]

I feel like a better description for Spike would be "competition" - the Spikes I've observed a lot, at least the healthy ones, tend to like helping people understand the meta, and enjoy having a fair competition, rather than just riding on easy wins to victory. Plus, a lot of people I know, such as myself, will do stuff like use resources and try and build a more "optimized" version of a deck, even if it isn't necessarily the best - it's just more optimal among our group, so we can have a slight edge, or to make things more fair if the rest of the group is tending higher. Heck, I know some very Spikey players that intentionally power their decks down against newbies to have a more even competition.

[@bitsamui5104]

I agree, competitive would be more apt. But some Spikes should also know that Johnny's, like me, avoid the meta on purpose so the advice isn't really useful with us. Although I can sometimes appreciate the insight.

[@Zanji1234]

sorry but that Spikes do help newer players ... really depens on the game. It's more the Johnnys which doing this

[@arachnofiend2859]

Something to think about is that Spikes tend to like mirror matches more than Johnnies. Obviously there is a volume of mirror match where you have a stale meta and nobody's having fun, but if two Spikes show up with the same deck then they get to pit their skills against each other on a perfectly even playing field, if two Johnnies show up with the same deck they both feel like they weren't as creative as they thought they were.

[@zachall1573]

@@bitsamui5104 Ah but think of it like this, a knowlegde of the game's Meta might be very useful in crafting strategies to go against those established metas. If most people are using the same kind of strategies, a non-meta deck that perfectly counters those popular strategies might be just what you need to proove your creativity. The more everyone uses one thing, the more valuable it becomes to use anything else, as the meta players won't be prepared for your rogue strategy.

[@SeedSnatcher]

An important thing about designing cards/games for Spikes, it's not just about making an efficient card/piece, it's about giving Spike a chance to outsmart their opponent. It's about giving Spikes the chance to make meaningful choices that allow them to demonstrate their abilities. You can make a brutally efficient card but if it's too straightforward or too high variance, it's kind of a turn off for Spike. It's gotta be something that takes at least a little thought. What Kohdok didn't cover here, and it's fair because this is aimed more towards people getting started in game design, but each psychographic has archetypes that have been defined by MaRo and others. The players you describe as optimizing for your group, they're metagaming too, just to your group as opposed to some major tournament. I won't power down my Constructed decks (and I don't really play Commander) but I love Limited because it puts everyone on equal footing. I've become something of a nuts and bolts Spike as MaRo puts it because I'm not one to worry about metagames but I love sharpening my own play skills, especially when it comes to piloting decks. Limited comes more naturally to us because everyone gets a similar pool of cards to build and play with, so in theory your mechanical skill shines through.

[@TheoJay615]

I do agree on the Stand Stats. We all start off as Timmys but as we progress into the hobby we grow "different stats" and become different players.

[@leftygurl]

tfw u end up as a timmy instead of a johnny bc there’s nobody to actually test decks with

[@nathanl8622]

I mean the profiles are more about how you like to play, not your circumstances. If you're assembling jank combos or building around quirky bulk rares that's Johnny behavior, regardless of how optimized those brews end up being.

[@kabalan20]

"The Rudy" LMAO

[@SuperiorFanBase]

I don't think the taxonomy includes the Rudy because I don't know if they really can officially acknowledge the secondary market without breaking the wizard of oz illusion they have going.

[@ShadowReaver573]

I choked on my drink when I saw it

[@Kuronosa]

"Look into Teledad and Zoodiacs" as you sneakily move Caw-blade up from Below, I saw that Jace the Mind Scuptor.... My friends and I worked together, and though we found a deck that could MATCH Caw-blade...is was...65 cards, felt like a hodge-podge, and only tied with the two Caw decks in the tournament our one friend showed it in, going to Turns each time.

[@Kuronosa]

...I love how you brought the Finance people into the taxonomy.

[@Zetact_]

I like the idea of spectacle/mechanic/victory dynamic since the original "Timmy/Johnny/Spike" does seem like it only really fits across the board for the Spike. As a Yugioh player: Timmies: "I play Sky Striker because Raye is cute and mecha musume is cool." "I play Stardust even though it isn't good because the combos it does when it doesn't get hand trapped are sick and super fun." "I play 60 card Ojama because it's hilarious." Johnnies: "I once made a deck of only Monsters with a 0/0 statline just for fun." "One day I dream of figuring out a way to make Cold Feet work in a practical way." "I play Sky Striker because it's neat to experiment with what sort of engines you can fit in with a deck that requires clearing out the Main Monster Zone" Spikes: "I will always make room for hand traps." "I play Sky Striker because it's strong." "I'll look up builds online, doesn't matter." that's me, all of those statements are me

[@liberty2087]

Sadly, MetaZoo is about 99% Jimothies, which has led to a lot of stall in terms of the game getting off the ground competitively.

[@theendofmyropemydude]

Also the art is objectively bad and the mechanics amount to a game of Calvinball.

[@mariodude89]

I mean the creator of that game is fully aware and complicit with the state of the secondary market whether for better or for worse. there's at least a good 2 hours of conversation between Mike (the creator of Metazoo) and Rudy about how Mike intends to go forward on the secondary market into the future, which is probably something you should watch if you actually intend to spend money on that TCG. As far as "getting the game off the ground competitively" that really seems to just be an issue of the game taking forever to print its Unlimited sets (or I guess...2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. edition sets) which either stems from the fact that it's an extremely new TCG made during a time where printer capacity is an actual issue or something else.

[@liberty2087]

@@theendofmyropemydude nice bait

[@redhatpieman]

Great video! Mark Rosewater also followed up the 3 player archetypes with 2 more: Mel (or Melvin) and Vorthos. They're not exactly more types of players to add to the original 3 but more of an additional layer to add to them (e.g. someone can be a Timmy Vorthos player). I recommend them as further reading for anyone interested in Player Archetypes!

[@ceresgc]

There is an argument for Se Jung Park (the Pachirisu player) being actually a Spike. Not only the rest of his team was 100% meta, but he used Pachirisu exclusively because he found out it was the perfect fit in said meta. He even admitted that he only started liking Pachirisu AFTER winning worlds with it. Even though he was inventive, he didn't do it as a form of expression, he did it to win.

[@Kirbita22]

yeah but the point is he realized this specific pokemon was the thing to slot into his team for this specific meta enviroment. i think you could argue he was a bit of both going purely off of how the player archetypes are described in this video

[@davidv2002]

he did it for both, it was unexpected mechanic like a johnny, but it was also to win like a spike. but like kohdok said at the beginning there’s overlap between them

[@ajbXYZcool]

I love all the references you made in this video, especially regarding MTG and YGO! Especially as I've learned the History of the latter, seeing certain cards come up and I KNOW why you reference it!

[@jakesapir]

The whole "Googoo Gaga" thing was not only hilarious, it also sounds kind of like playing Unfinity. One of the more powerful cards in Unfinity is called "Ambassador Blorpityblorpboop".

[@argo3364]

6:15 Konami "sounds like a brilliant idea" *proceeds to make prankids* Me *proceeds to chuckle everytime someone commentating a duel says doodle doo*

[@victort.2583]

Maro has also discussed Vorthos and Melvin, other player archetypes that engage with the game differently from Timmy/Johnny/Spike (for flavorful or mechanical resonance rather than gameplay), and I think those are pretty compelling, too. FWIW, I honestly think Rudy/Alpha Investments does care about the games he collects, even if he doesn't really play them. That's not to say that he isn't a dedicated finance guy, but he seems to have legitimate respect for (at least some of) the games as well - he had some words of praise for Future Card Buddyfight back when it was around.

[@TouchStoneGaming]

Vorthos and Mel aren't psychographics. They're aesthetic profiles, and they're used in conjunction with the psychographics, not as additional categories. You have Spikes who are also Vorthos, and Timmys that are also Mel.

[@victort.2583]

@@TouchStoneGaming Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for the explanation!

[@ashtongaskill3980]

@@TouchStoneGaming while that was the official line from Maro, I always found it kind of dumb. The point of all of them is "why do you play magic?" and "because I like the lore so I built this Chandra themed deck" and "because I appreciate the design of this mechanic so I drafted the set it's in a lot" are just as valid and distinct as "to make big flashy plays" or "to feel clever" or "to challenge my abilities"

[@ashtongaskill3980]

You can be a Timmy-Spike just as easily as a Vorthos-Spike so why put them into different categories

[@TouchStoneGaming]

@@victort.2583 No problem! It's a consistent misunderstanding. (As you can probably tell from the rest of the comments.)

[@rmt3589]

Devil: Do you have a way to sell this game to people who aren't interested Jim? Jimothy: I'm an empath. I would never implement manip- Devil: Hypothetically. Jimothy: Hypothetically, we first want to make the game flow under the radar, and get a few people to secretly buy it up. Devil: How would that make it sell Jim? Jimothy: JIMOTHY! And we make it sell by hyping up a tournament. When people try to get the cards, the shelves will be empty. As demand spikes, those few can now dump all those cards at inflated prices, getting profiteers excited for a chance to have a huge ROI. But every penny returns to you. Devil: I'm writing this down.

[@littlemisspipebomb4723]

Thank you so much for making the player archetypes so much more digestible than Maro did

[@brysonlambes7175]

Maro added two more, vorthos and mel, which I find extremely helpful.

[@fernandobanda5734]

They are not the same thing though.

[@tipulsar85]

I could have sworn the "Timmy, Johnny, Spike" article was pre Zendikar, but It could be I was thinking of the original articles about each individual type. Yikes, Making Magic turns 20 this year.

[@MogFlintlock]

It definitely is. It was re-released later, but the original article is from all the way back in 2002.

[@EdBurke37]

I enjoy how MaRo updated the names for the archetypes: Timmy/Tammy, Johnny/Jenny and Spike. Because Spike doesn't care about your gender binary. Spike only cares about winning!

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

Who needs a gender when I have a FTK

[@afish2281]

Gender is irrelevant. You are in the path of my massacre.

[@genericname3516]

6:15 Madolche fits this pretty well, and I hope Melffy gets to be good enough to count for this too in the future, lol

[@DroppedMyMarbles]

dolche has never been more than a Johnny deck tbh

[@cblazerc]

I can say that I am definitely a Johnny. I mean when you showed Painful Choice and said it had a down side I immediately thought, "What has he been smoking". Also including Magical Scientist FTK for the alchemist bit was hilarious to me. edit also while the Goo-goo archetype seems powerful, the fact that its main negation is on a trap card and that it is only targeting negation makes the deck unplayable (plus weeing yourself only draws 2 after set-up so it would only be useful if you already have starters in your opener). however since they don't lock you into anything and can easily get 2 monsters, using them as a dragoon or DPE engine wouldn't be the worst idea, but since you would have to dedicate a spot in the extra to link spider to send the normal into, it wouldn't even be the best for that.

[@shawnjavery]

The big problem would be playing a deck that already is running bricks and putting more on top of that.

[@ich3730]

1. You dont need to be a johnny to see PC is broken. Everybody knows. 2. You cant try to rate a fictional archetype with 3 whole cards xD

[@cblazerc]

@@ich3730 1. I know that, I was just using an example from the video. 2. I can and I will.

[@rustycox7741]

That flamethrower bit is perfect.

[@SwampKryakwa]

Oh god, Kohdok, you are The God of making videos about card games

[@nathanl8622]

I think Jimothy makes sense as a category in the way you're talking about (viewing how each player contributes to the game), but I think it makes sense that it isn't a profile. The profiles help guide game design, so each one can get cards geared toward them. Jimothy doesn't really care what the card says, just what it's worth, so there's not much point designing for them beyond, like, making sure your set has a couple chase mythics in it.

[@weebcraft6829]

At the same time, Jimothies are bringing huge success to Pokemon and some indie card games, plus the whole fiasco in YGO of "why does this uncommon card cost $400" so its still a thing to keep in mind when designing cards

[@marvelsandals4228]

Well, you could build product with Jimothys in mind. For example, perhaps you introduce extremely rare card (not important to the competitive scene) featuring a fan favorite character, cool artwork, & it is shiny as hell. There is a small segment of your fanbase that will hype up this card, buy lots of boxes just to pull one, make pack opening videos about it, etc. That kind of hype will generate more buzz around your game, spreading more awareness of it to people who have never even heard of it before. When a player buys a booster pack at their local card shop, onlookers will gather round wondering "will he pull it?" and he will be the town hero if he does. If handled well, this sort of thing can be a net positive for all parties involved...as long as the card isn't important to the competitive scene lol

[@darkangelsmarine]

5:00 that clip about flamethrowers was perfect!

[@carro179]

7:00 Why I play Performapal/Magician/Odd-Eyes: 3._ I like Pendulums 2._ They make me feel like I can still do something even when I'm on the verge of losing 1._ haha funny hippo

[@terydtl4184]

That bit to describe a Johnny was something I found more funny then I should have. "They look at a card with an upside and a down side, then ask why dose it have 2 upsides."

[@lawrencetyrpa]

I love how your videos are highly informational and still entertaining at the same time. :)

[@felipehurtadomurcia9194]

9:45 the truth has been spoken

[@wesleyruff4997]

i think discussions about these types of players often ignore the very obvious fact that most players begin their TCG career as timmies, become johnnies later and then if they stick with the game, eventually become spikes, its more of a "life cycle" than a "taxonomy"

[@MrShinyObject]

You joke about Googoo Gaga, but Shark Typhoon is a genuinely playable card in MtG right now and is a literal sharknado.

[@bitsamui5104]

Definitely more of a Johnny person. I don't mind people who want to be hyper-competitive, but I find playing "the meta deck" flavor of the week to win tournaments boring. I'd rather play jank or weird strategies and try to alchemize something new/fun/interesting. Sadly, most TCGs seem to appeal more to the competitive person more. Something Kohdok should think about, IMO, is why Duel Masters is soooooo good and successful - it appeals to all three types in a very balanced and complete way.

[@ich3730]

Duel masters is not even close to the same ballpark as YGO, pokemon or MTG. If its so good, why is it dead outside of japan?

[@AxelWedstar411]

Jimothys! Jimothys! Barely even human!

[@codecatx5]

I am very glad my game doesn’t fall into the 7 deadly sins and I’m glad I now have these things to definitely point to that succinctly explains the things I’ve known and been talking about for forever. Also I’m mostly a Johnny and a lot of Timmy with all the abilities of Spike’s.

[@NovaSaber]

I'm watching this right after seeing someone who talks about the meta describe "Dodododwarf Gogogoglove"...

[@terydtl4184]

As a spike one thing I think everyone overlooks is that we Don't just care about winning, we care about winning our way. To us, our decks aren't just the swords in our hand but the flags we fly. We don't just pick up a deck because we think it's the best, but because we want to show everyone why it IS the best. It's that spark of self expression and passion that really makes a spike. It's why you sometimes see a spike with an off-meta or rouge deck, it's because they believe that deck deserves to be treated as one of the big boys and should be considered among the other top tier decks.

[@marvelsandals4228]

I think there's a good point of overlap where you pick a given archetype/theme, because it appeals to you, THEN you get to work trying to brew up a list that might stand a chance against the meta, for the allure of being "that one dude" topping an event with your favorite rogue deck

[@jamjar1726]

what if you had a game were the attributes were based on the 4 player types

[@ashtongaskill3980]

The expanded list from Maro almost maps onto the MtG colors Timmy/Tammy - green Johnny/Jenny - Spike - black Vorthos - red Mel - blue

[@nathanl8622]

@@ashtongaskill3980 I'd put Johnny in blue and Mel in white. And I guess Jimothy would be colorless.

[@trickyplays240]

Almost to 50k!!! Gratz dude, I’ve been watching you for a while and love to see you finally getting subscribers

[@chaosof99]

While I like that you brought in the "speculator" player type, there is also one player type that is commonly known and discussed dubbed "Vorthos". Those are players who are less interested in the games themselves than the story, worldbuilding and artwork of the cards. There is also the inverse though less often used "Mel", who enjoys the mechanical design of cards and doesn't care much about the flavor. Not to be presumptious, but I think you are a particularly good example of that taxonomical group. If I were to sum the archetypes up in a sentence: * Timmies enjoy what is awesome * Johnnys enjoy what is clever * Spikes enjoy what is efficient * Vorthos' enjoy what is flavorful * Mels enjoy what is designed well

[@ashtongaskill3980]

That line between Vorthos and Mel where ludonarrative harmony / verisimilitude lives is just *chefs kiss*

[@AlteredNova04]

I feel like there's a massive amount of overlap between Johnny and Mel, to the point that it's probably not worth separating the archetypes. After all, why would you want to explore the complexities of the mechanics of a poorly designed game, and how would you figure out if it's well designed without deeply examining the mechanics?

[@ashtongaskill3980]

@@AlteredNova04 There's a distinction. Johnny types like to do big impressive plays and pull off crazy synergies in game, whereas Mel types appreciate the design of the cards themselves and tend to be thr type who make custom card designs or want to enter the industry professionally. A Johnny looks at a new set and scans for combo pieces, a Mel reviews the set and appreciates the elegance of a vanilla creature who's subtype and power support two different draft archetypes at the same time and how this card combines two mechanics in a novel manner.

[@Jolfgard]

Danny Phantump is a good example for a beneficial Jimothy.

[@liloldman5998]

The gagagigo bit is funnier in context considering cards like "Prank-kids Meow-Meow-Mu", "Dodo-Doodle-Doo" and "Bow-Wow-Bark" used to be part of a meta deck in Yugioh.

[@Kreiser_VII]

I'm definitely a Timmy-hearted Johnny, I'll pick with my heart and jank my way to the top, win or lose I'll go by my pretty looking schemes

[@henrygomez7142]

In Johnny's defense Painful Choice is all upside. It is up there for the most egregious card balance failure in any card game. Also Teledad was one of the best most skill intensive game formats of all time. It's universally well regarded among players from the time.

[@PanthalassaRo]

Man that BIMO segment had me in tears

[@Majoraspersona]

"One card extra deck play" is my favorite thing to say in Yugioh

[@HighSchoolRamiel]

6:05 Perfection

[@simonpetrikov3992]

If I were to classify myself using this taxonomy I would be more of a Johnny spike hybrid

[@owencmyk]

I dog generally agree with this summary, though... the idea that everyone plays for fun is surprisingly untrue. Players who care about winning will absolutely optimize all fun out of the game if they're given the option to. There are players who would build a deck of 20 mountains and 40 bolts if they could, regardless of whether or not they actually find that playstyle fun or interesting. Still, great video !

[@horrorsage1346]

There was a card game called Raw Deal based on WWF/WWE. There was a card in a started deck called crimson goddess. It was a very photogenic picture of Lita. It was in a starter deck and I heard stories of stores basically opening the starter and selling that one card on E-bay because it would go for more than the starter sold for. An example of a store Jimothy?

[@elijahdavila3684]

Timmys buy into the game, Johnnys bring it to life, Spikes bring it prestige, and Jimothys make it so that no one can afford to play

[@hamsandwich6685]

Rudy is like a hyper evolved jimothy in a caliber of his own

[@off-the-grounder568]

6:23 7:01 This what I think was the idea behind Gholdengo in the Pokémon main series.

[@marcoasturias8520]

Jimmothy sounds like what happens when little Timmy thinks he has "shark mentality"

[@Animefan8050]

This is my new favourite video of yours, you really explained the concepts clearly and why they are important, plus you argued your point with the Jimothy type very well. Showing the concept with that comedian clip with the flamethrower was cleverly done. Great pacing and editing for the video, loved it.

[@gmradio2436]

I had a friend describe me as "The best worst first opponent." I apparently got him hooked on MTG. I was in the college commons and there was this guy going through a deck of cards. Hey an opponent and I have an hour before my next class. We sit down to play and talk. Turns out he is playing an Izzet Stater deck and I am playing a Myr deck with Clock of Omens. We were going through the game. He cept blowing up my Myr, I cept playing helpful artifacts. Around turn 8 Clock of Omens hits the field while Galvanizer is already there. I said something corny about infinity and went infinite. The look on his face. Priceless. Play Myr Battleshpere and next turn swing for game. Apparently I taught him two things: the absurd things you can to in the game, and playing the game is more fun than winning. He went on to be known as the second trollest player on campus. MTG-Magic the Gathering Izzet-Red, Blue. Mad science themed Myr-creature type. All Myr are artifacts. Alot tap(expend) for mana(resource). The are little helper robots. Very weak individually. Clock of Omens-Tap (expend) 2, untap(recharge) 1 Myr Galvanizer- Pay 2 mana(resource) and tap(expend); untap all other Myr. Myr Battleshpere-creature. When it attacks, tap(expend) X other Myr; Deal X damage to opponent. Literally a big ball of Myr Not mentioned, but played. Myr Propagator-pay 3 mana(resource) and tap; clone this. Myr Turbine-Tap(expend) create a Myr token. The only important ability in this story. Tap mana Myr for mana, Turbine for token. Then tap Galvanizer to untap other Myr. Clock of Omens taps tokens and Propagator to untap Turbine and Galvanizer. Repeat Each loop generates more resources in the form of mana and tokens and is in theory infinite.

[@megamonk]

*kept

[@gmradio2436]

@@megamonk Thank you for the correction.

[@fybso3057]

I felt called out when you talked about Johnnys

[@mdudegamer]

I definitely fall into a hybrid of Timmy and Johnny. Not really any room for me to be a Spike since I live in a small town and don't have anybody else to play against. I'm technically always "winning" in my games since I'm playing against myself, so naturally in gameplay spectacle becomes the most important thing to me, but I've recently been working on deckbuilding, too, and have found that to be a ton of fun.

[@marvelsandals4228]

I highly recommend you make a pilgrimage to a local card shop & participate in an official event of some kind. A good number of TCG players tend to be on the shy/introverted side, but trust me you'll be glad you tried it. Remember, chances are you'll meet other players who you share a lot in common with. You probably won't win many games, but the real goal should be playing a game you like with like-minded folks.

[@SofaKingDead]

I feel a lot of contempt for spike players in this video, and I am a Johnny. Also the Jimmothy character already had a name Larry. Also you should not design for Larry, designing for Larry will kill your game long term.

[@kylenguyen7371]

... I must now find whether MaRo put out an article for Larry.

[@JomasterTheSecond]

I have a feeling you used the dude from Pocahontas just to use the "See how I glitter" screencap.

[@pompagarissanimation2592]

5:23 Im not sure about anyone else, but I do that alot, mainly because it's some what therapeutic but also because I know that whatever abomination I end up creating will lose against alot of decks and I'll end up looking at it less favourably which bogs me down abit

[@endymallorn]

I think there needs to be a split between the healthy marketeer and the predatory speculators. The market is half of what determines the meta, after all - if you can’t get access to a card, you can’t play that card. So for those that want to produce something and keep the game going healthily, they deserve a lot more respect than the speculation crowd and the over-rating auction crowd. There’s also people who are fans of your game for the fiction you create (and who might be good resources for plots and stories later on - if you have a magazine or newsletter, you might see their name in the contribution list several times over). I’ve been told that Magic calls these people Vorthos. They usually play like Timmy, but they primarily buy the novels, comics, and other media. In Pokemon these are the guys who engage with it either video game first or anime first. The YGO community sometimes calls them “anime duelists”, because they want to act like they’re in that fictional world while the game is on. It’s spectacle at the table, but not just in the way Timmy wants spectacle. These are the people who build decks to support their favorite card, or their favorite plot line. So, to make them happy? Make cards that match the plot, that’s all. You have a really awesome character? Give them a card, or have them use real strategies. I think there’s also space for another archetype, which I might call The Squiggy - the alternate format player. They may be a dork who got caught up in that format, or they might be a hipster, or a contrarian. But the point is, this is the kind of guy who was playing Elemental Dragon Hero before “Commander” was around; the guy who played Pokemon Baseball; or the guy who plays Goat Format, Dungeon Dice Monsters, or Perfect Rule. You need to consider him, because if he’s not a contrarian, aiming to subvert you, he’ll respect the support. And if he is that sort of hipster contrarian, you’ll push him away from people who might also enjoy that format. They overlap with the Johnny & the Melvin, but they’re a different breed,

[@Zanji1234]

myself always was / is a Timmy + kinda Johnny though i know a TRUE Johnny who build ygo decks with such strange card usages that you really didn't know what the heck and only he could pilot it. He build a kind of "omega handless loop" which could potentially special summon to infinite and win by deck out should the opponement use MAXX C (discard it and you draw a card each time you special summon).... and / or discard your entire hand one by one through a complicated combo. The fact of "the Jimmothy" was also made in YGO a LONG while back when rumors about a rule change came up (way before link i think) and somebody was like "yeah they increase the LP total to 10k" and suddenly some "famous" youtuber said this also and was like "so guys better buy our playset of Ancient Leaf (if you have 9k life, pay 2k to draw two cards) and suddenly a old COMMON card from an out of print set rose to i think 20 EUR and was sold out. It came afterwards that the one hyped this madness (the youtubers and "famous" players") just profited the most of it since they sold their cards to highest prices

[@krymsonkyng5573]

Was waiting for Vorthos to make an appearance, but you activated your trap card. GG

[@stillbuyvhs]

I remember, in 1998 & 1999, everyone was buying Pokémon cards, but no one really knew how to play the game. (Timmy) Then in 2000, kids were still buying the cards, but only because they could make money reselling them. (Jimothy.) This, of course, wasn't sustainable, so the market crashed, & soon Pokémon cards weren't worth much. I didn't have many Pokémon cards, just one booster pack I got as a Christmas present, plus the Mewtwo card which came with the movie, & some of those lenticular tile things. Later, when the market crashed, I was able to buy boxes of the things for pennies a piece. Wonder if we still have them...

[@seanfulldark]

I have my version called the five-man ban! First off like the Timmy's have been described, I call them the Timmy's(a.k.a. the hero archetype but let's be honest here where all heroes of our own story that's not really the thing) the Timmy's getting to the game they play it they enjoy it there interested into sitting there in studying the lore and history of the game. You can tell the level of the Timmy because a starting Timmy, is sitting there looking at watching the game and decide I'm going to be the protagonist, when it comes on an anime or it's being shown in a series to advertise it. But a higher-level one sits there and looks at one the background characters decks and goes icon want to play their deck a little bit more. You know the ones not the one to watch Valentine time and say"I want to play a harpy deck." No they turned to Tea and say." I'm going to play a fairy deck." And smile when they beaten what I'm going to refer to as the strongman, with that deck and the strongman explode. Then comes the Lancers, there are the rivals the best friends the person who sat there next to Timmy saw the card game and said yeah I'm totally playing it just so that we can spend more time with you. And then after a few minutes got super good Lord, and also got the taste of victory and turns to slaughtering a couple friends along the way but, also at the same time not being afraid to pull up the Phoenix downs and resurrect them and their decks. These I call the Chester's, they look at Timmy analyze what he has and then becomes better at, instead of copying and mimicking decks from their favorite show they start making their own decks but they're not studying really the effects of the cards. That's the job of the smart guy. (Okay now I'm breaking the fairy odd parents joke!): While some people say they're the johnnies, I feel the smartest person in the room has never been Johnny but instead the Dexter. He walks into the room staring at the card studying them, he has entire lab devoted to building varieties of different decks, sometimes he looks at one card and sees 14 different combinations and strategies, and it's up to him to the side of which one of these should I go with. Should I go with the lower tier design that has more risk may be a little bit of reward, or should I go with the obvious victorious one. The one that shows up with the shut pay box of card decks and you go like man this guy is rich, pulls out out and says. "What are you playing." And immediately pulled out the deck that absolutely socks in the meta-against this type of archetype, and turns and says. "Yeah I expect this card to go on the bandwidth next week but I gotta keep playing it once in a while." When he sees the band lessee goes my work is done and smiles believably. Then comes the strongman type Madarks, sometimes known as the Susan. He watches the Dexter study some of his decks and immediately steals them for his own, and then proudly displays his victory poses and trophies. Growing attached to the deck only after getting couple wins, start putting in promo versions of the cards. Determined to have a all Golden card or diamond foil deck filled with these unique cards the flashier the better. And then they sit down smile as they win and kill and win some more, but one day the Turner shows up and destroys your deck, or worst it gets put on the banned list, maybe one of your key cards that activate your strategies. You cry at the amount of destruction of your entire game play list, you may have one or two backup decks but if they revolve around the same card you explode this was so good that it and it deleted your entire collection of deck, you have several broken guns and you turn and you start watching the Dexter through your binoculars trying to find a new deck to steal, and if you're even desperate to watch Chester. And finally the fifth archetype, the ones I like to call the lovers, a.k.a. the DDs. The DD is good friends with the Dexter, always bugging them about certain details but I the normal sense. Sometimes the Dexter will reply get out of my laboratory. But the DD are really interested in the value of these cards, but they know sometimes the value of the card is based on how well it's played, the great decks the great archetypes. Or they sit there and look at their collections and smile. They noticed the Timmy's and they say "yeah I know what goes in this deck perfectly." Pulls out the shiniest card in the room and says the price tag 100% of the time. Overhears the Madark say which cards that they need to make this new deck flow shows them and goes examining which cards need to be hyped up and which ones need to be hyped down. Once a while studying the meta-but not really that's why they have friends like Dexter's, maybe once a while they spend time with the Chester or two. But they have the real money, and they make more money off of it analyzing the market. But they sit down and try their damnedest to make even the worst cards the best ones sometimes prodding a Dexter to come up with amazing strategies. Just so that way they can unload them there low to your cards. For when the worst cards exist for the worst reasons you know what DD is going to change a Dexter into playing that card, and talking him into internment and saying "Win!"

[@ich3730]

Take the time to check up on the writing, this shit was unreadable

[@lupin-x2]

My man really playing "Timothy" in the background of this 💀

[@Elitekross]

Not quite a jimothy, but I knew a guy named Nico, who found a coupon barcode online that let him buy mtg big boxes for dirt cheap at Walmart. He went to all the Walmarts in the area and bought them out for months then would sell the packs to the people at the local community college for like, 5 bucks a pop.

[@rewrose2838]

This must be the first time someone called me a Johnny

[@Flashofblades]

Something to note, Vorthos is another kind of player talked about by maro.

[@IceBot360G]

Just have to mention this there is already a 4th player type though usually restricted to mtg I have seen these in games like ygo And that is the vorthos aka the lore freaks

[@guyclegg]

Oh yeah oh yes oh yeah yes.

[@mobmaniac]

I'd say "Richard" is a more fitting name for "Jimothy" for pun-related reasons

[@borby4584]

The $1000 MTG proxy set is what happens when a company makes a product solely with a Jimmothy in mind

[@imperiallegionnaire8344]

I'd like to think I'm a Johnny, but in actuality I'm a Timmy

[@clayxros576]

5:35 Kodak, you can't just drop this kind of idea into the open. Us designers WILL abuse it to no end. ...oh I'm 200% a Johnny huh?

[@dpacula63]

I consider myself a mix of Johnny and Spike. I place winning above everything else, but a deck with interesting gameplay and mechanics interest me more.

[@shawnjavery]

Those are the decks that tend to win in my experience. Yugioh in particular does a good job of making the strong decks fun to play as well.

[@kleedrac]

As an FYI Mark did update his list to add a fourth player called "Vorthos" who's interested in the lore/setting/world of the game and purchases cards less to play than to be an art book they can look at. They also purchase more non-game things like novels and such.

[@TouchStoneGaming]

TL;DR: Vorthos and Mel aren't psychographics; they're aesthetic profiles that describe what the player engages with on the spectrum of mechanics to flavor. They're not unique "types" of players, instead an additional dimensions added onto the base three. There are Jenny-Mels and Spike-Vorthos, for example, and they all buy cards to play the game. Mark consistently mentions this whenever someone accidentally uses Vorthos/Mel as a psychographic. Vorthos (and their counterpoint, Mel) aren't a player psychographic, though. They're not describing how a player engages with the game (spectacle/gameplay/skill). Instead, they're "aesthetic profiles", describing what the player enjoys when it comes to flavor/world building and gameplay. A Vorthos could be an incredibly Spike-y player, but they like it when a game leans into its flavor and story. In the case of Magic, these are players that want each unique type of creature to have a unique creature type. A Mel player, however, cares about the mechanical interactions between cards and throughout the game in general. These players, again to use Magic as an example, want creature types to be as consolidated as possible, because it makes creature type interactions simpler and more consistent. While psychographics lean towards Vorthos or Mel, they aren't the same, and they certainly don't describe how likely someone is to buy cards. You are right that a Vorthos would be more likely to engage with the setting and lore of a game, and that normally translates to a willingness to buy non-gameplay material. But a Vorthos primarily cares about how the game's world and story is told _through_ cards, not external media. If they sit down with a deck based around a faction, they want it to feel like the faction. A Vorthos looks at a card and says, "Does this work within its flavor and the flavor of the set?" A Mel looks at a card and says, "Does this work mechanically with itself and other cards of the set?"

[@ropetoper]

MetaZoo Reserve List video soon?

[@AztecCroc]

Wait, did MetaZoo seriously fall into that same goddamn trap that MTG did and has openly stated regretting ever since?

[@thegis5911]

@@AztecCroc Yep.

[@ProactiveYellow]

Apparently I am a clear "Jimmy" (not jimothy) I become attached to archetypes and mechanics and build decks around them as a puzzle to make them work. I have no care for the meta, and want to make things work as well as I can on my own. I want my Timmy cards to work, so I Johny a deck around them.

[@kagemushashien8394]

Great explanation of the people who play card games, I'll use this to help make my own TCG. Any other tips?

[@Petrico94]

Each is valuable but I feel Spike is more an inevitability of competitive play and needs to be worked around. Timmy likes big stuff so be sure to add large high mana spells or easier combos (maybe some holographic stuff in the same group). Johnny always likes to break the game or use those niche win conditions so long as they have some tools to work with, either just playing a usual combo deck or some strange cards that only work if you're trying to set both your healths to 7 for something fun. More complex rare cards are great and can either make a new deck so yeah Spike will keep an eye on Johnny's deck more than how fast they can ramp to a green behemoth. You can find a bit of each in all players, everyone wants to win, have fun, and understand the game on a deeper more complex level. Jimothy are not a player just a collector, they're free to enjoy the game on their spare time but we all know when they get a super rare card it's going in a sealed case rather than a sleeve for a deck like Timmy would attempt.

[@Stroggoii]

Games without competitive scenes and secondary markets just die. Anyone with a box of V:TES or LotR laying at the bottom of their games storage space look at the Spikes and Jimothies of their game and think "God bless these chumps for keeping the game alive".

[@Emanuelmartins69]

I think it’s more like: Timmys like face value gameplay. Johnies enjoy theory crafting and the emergent gameplay they make. Spikes you got right and just like winning above everything else. Jimothies shouldn’t be a thing, these denominations are for gameplay development.

[@TactlessC]

After Master Duel came out you might as well call Spikes "Eldliches" cause apparently it's the one Archetype they never get sick of using.

[@weebcraft6829]

Timmies are the Blue Eyes/Numeron-Egyptian God, Johhnies are the rogue/middle tiers and Spikes are the Eldlich/Tri-Zoo/Drytron

[@UnrealMisterD]

1) The Carlin but was perfect. 2) I think you could have called Jimothys "Gordon Gekkos" and no one would have been upset. XD

[@remyscreepycorner5135]

Life long Johnny here

[@shiftomnimega]

Pretty solid 4th archetype.

[@ClampEEGEE]

"The panic buying of 2020 and 2021" HAH he can find Pokemon cards in person ;_;

[@vanitassmangareviews8869]

I feel like I’m an even split between Timmy and Johnny. Also, as a casual player who’s favorite archetype of all time is Performapal, I feel like I should be offended by 6:57

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

You forgot about Vorthos. Those players that care more about the lore, art, worldbuilding then they Care about the game mechanics. Those that read the books, comis and short stories and sometimes dont even play the game.

[@kinilas]

Me- idk if I fall into any of these... Also me- (won 3 Pokemon tournaments with a deck based around a card that was considered "useless")

[@Anime12345freak]

I am definitely a Timmy. I love just making decks based on a theme I love rather then what is meta. And I love games that cater to this. Digimon does it well. My plesiomon deck definitely isn't meta but plesiomon is one of my fave megas so he'll yeah I'm making that deck :3

[@martindouge1947]

I want to see a 4-player Commander table with these guys.

[@VPalamedes25]

Spikes aka the people who make the final duel of a YGO tourney a mirror match, Blue-eyes anyone Also nah, I think Performapals were originally made to show the power of pendulum summoning but after finding certain cards & combos to be far too consistent & powerful they became a good example of a mechanic outclassing a flagship deck, I mean there's a reason why PEPE decks were so common during a good part of the Arc-V meta (though take this w/ a grain of salt, I'm not a person who pays too much attention to the meta of any card game I play, if we're using the terminology of this video, I'm a Timmy w/ a small bit of a Johnny personality)

[@andypandaman1607]

man i will never forget pulling a 80 doller card from a promo pack i won at my card shop and while it was a good card whats more important a shiny card or grocery money

[@GaleOfTheVale]

What about Vorthos and Melvin?

[@RainbowblitzFTW]

I propose Richy for the Jimothy