ORGANIZED PLAY (Errata Text)

(Alternate Title: "Why every game doesn't do Grand Prix or huge Organized Play Kits")
Organized Play! With the return of a lot of popular OP on the horizion, here's a basic breakdown of how many games (and stores) handle Organized Play at lower levels.
(Footage used comes from official game channels or events)
GDC - "You Suck at Showcasing Your Game": • You Suck at Showcasing...

[@austinnowak5414]

I see that Ina figure in the background. Kohdok is a man of culture

[@tiozuradasexatas6754]

That explains all the puns he commits to.

[@gamercore5216]

Wah

[@Schmoltis]

There is a lot that goes into the full production of a card game that it's easy to forget or fail at certain parts like Organized Play which are still important to a game's success. Just wanted to say thank you for making these and they have been great to watch.

[@VieneLea]

Ina's figurine? You have good taste :>

[@yoyong1995]

It's interesting most stores sell tournament kits while Konami for provides tournament kits to local stores for free (OTS Packs and Playmats) to encourage play. Stores get all the profit because the prizes they give out is provided by the company that makes the game.

[@Kohdok]

I reckon there's a decent minimum order required to get those kits.

[@yoyong1995]

@@Kohdok Konami sends cases of the tournament packs depending on how big of turnouts stores get. Tournament stores use the Konami system to run events and with weekly reporting they will send enough free prize support to accomodate turnouts. Since it's free for the stores, all the profit goes into their pockets for organized play, and stores don't even have to offer items from their inventory and can just use the Konami provided stuff.

[@hmaster24]

@@Kohdok You're kind of correct, "OTS store" is a status Konami gives to stores that apply for it and they like, Think of it as a game store putting in a job application to Konami and just like a job application they don't want just anyone and they're only gonna let you in if they like you (move product). Being a part of the program is actually really nice and has a lot of benefits but not everyone gets to be one.

[@Kohdok]

@@hmaster24 It also shifts the burden even further onto stores, giving them the task of drawing crowds and making hype. Really only a game the size of Yugioh could hope to get away with this sort of system.

[@horusschnopp1882]

@@Kohdok Also, did Konami do any of this in the early 00's when YGO (and Konami as a card company) was still new and small? I doubt it honestly.

[@Gaming_Nerd1993]

Ok the lunchbox joke was funny. I gotta give credit that brought a smile to my face.

[@Petrico94]

Promo cards should be interesting or changed art of another card, but it gets dangerous if it becomes a needed part of a deck. Past that coins or pins are free game if they don't directly interact with the normal gameplay. Mistakes in what's required to use a card is more a problem with the game design along with sloppy kit design. I remember going to a Hearthstone event when they were offering a bonus skin for showing up to one and it was fun, it was certainly more enjoyable than the usual online experience and likely vital to most Yugioh, Pokemon and MtG players who stick to the regular cardboard. It's a step up from playing with friends. Tournaments are fun too but are more risky with prizes handed out and anti-cheating+judges needs to be stricter. It's work to promote the store, and if it's not in their best interest they might as well just sell packs, boardgames and other merch as usual. Hosting events absolutely helps if the game is popular and gets people to show up to their favorite game store more often but there's no reason to hold events for every card game especially if you see it's not selling in your region, or the players primarily buy online exclusively. Back to my Hearthstone tournament it was fun but I only really bought a set of dice and never went back, even with Walmart banning TCG products that store wasn't my preferred place to buy stuff. It's all a risk on the business end which can pay off but might also shut off half the store for one night for little profit.

[@Takato]

"It is not the job of the fans to maintain the fanbase" Well, I guess Kohdok never played fighting games before lmao

[@Envy11235]

Honestly though. If your community can't survive without constant influence from the creators, your game is gonna die once the profit margins run to low. Hell look at mtg who are getting upset with wizard and asking for even less content.

[@horusschnopp1882]

TBF, fighting games do put out consistent releases and content which is enough I guess.

[@entothechesnautknight1762]

Most fighting games that have large audiences receive consistent support, and the ones that don't almost always have niche, small player bases. Melee is just the exception that proves the rule

[@zehern22]

Well, that and Melty Blood before Type Lumina as we had to literally wait for a decade before the new game was even announced. Even then, the older Melty game still maintain and grow.

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

The fighting game communities that have actual staying power do get support from the creators, though...

[@rubentadeogarcia5424]

As an MTG player I absolutely love the textless promos although most of the cards printed as textless are pretty simple and highly played. MTG did run into the issue of printing a textless complicated card though when they printed a textless Cryptic Command, a card that let's you choose 2 of 4 different effects, yeah they have never printed something that complicated in textless since

[@benjaminphilippe2810]

You'd think they would've learned from that, but no. Now there's a textless version of the 4 color Omnath. You know, the one with 9 lines of text

[@TheLuckySpades]

I paid quite a markup from normal price to get a textless lightning bolt for my pauper deck, it also runs a japanese exclusive variant , so 2/4 copies I cannot read, but bolt is so simple and well understood that it isn't as bad I would probably mever run a textless cryptic command outside of my (as of yet theoretical) headache deck that has day/night, attractions, stickers, rolling many different kinds of dice, the old style planeswalkers, full text lands and the left handed cards (last 3 from secret lairs)

[@alext.1244]

all memes aside, participation rewards are a huge positive thing to include! Well.... I mean something like at my LGS where since they get a lot of promo packs to give out for FNM events, instead of just giving them all to the person who won (or like top 2-3) they also give out 1 or 2 at RANDOM as well on top of the top results prize support. This way, like had happened to me, my first few weeks of showing up to the FNMs where I didn't win 1st or whatnot ofc (new deck, new game makes it tough to win straight off the bat for alot of people) I was still rewarded with a taste of the spoils of winning! I got over $20 were and there in valuable cool cards, and i didnt even win or do well LOL! Its great incentive to come back and also to IMPROVE as well!

[@Shenaldrac]

Yup. And it's important to remember that as nice as the promo cards might be, like you said you got over $20 in value, _it costs the company pennies to make them._ There's no excuse not to do it, it's not a meaningful financial burden on the company in the least.

[@lunam9397]

I remember that a lot of Score card games gave out shirts. My parents owned a card store at the time and we ended up with a bunch of extras when we closed - we were large enough to hold the regionals for that year for a couple of their games, we went through a lot more tourney packs than we did shirts - and I still have some of them from yu yu hakusho and dragonball z. I dont know if Inuyasha ever had shirts, but if it did I dont have them

[@PlasticSiding]

Been hoping you would cover this topic, great video on the inside and outside of one of the most interesting things about card and tabletop games. I’d also say your video editing skills really came through on this video, this was a complex subject and the visuals of this episode really helped it not feel like you were just dumping a bunch of information on me.

[@psychicflora]

Is that an Ina figurine?!!! cool and nice that you show how much organized play salo had

[@dawafflesupreme]

Yet another great video! As someone who didn't appreciate his LGS until weeks before it went out of business, I loved the look at the kind of events I missed out on! I liked your Ina statute btw.

[@fybso3057]

That first sentence is such an important lesson for any game really

[@Karanthaneos]

In short, organized play must be organized in all aspects.

[@sleeplessknight2260]

You know I had never heard of EPIC before, and now that I started considering getting into it it's everywhere (probably going to pick up the sister game hero realms because the cooperative gameplay option is a good way to get people who would normally be uninterested in the game to play though)

[@fearanarchy]

Pick any one of Star/Hero Realms or Epic. Tney work well as a system if YOU get the group working. White Wizards is awful at encouraging support. Good games, bad support.

[@kyliequilter5920]

me and my friend have been working on a game and these videos have been super helpful.

[@Kratosauron0]

While your point is 100% valid, my full-art "Lier, Disciple of the Drowned" would like to chuckle at being called "useless as a playable card". ... I'm definitely running it in part BECAUSE I find it funny that a reasonably complicated card would have a textless promo version (also see : full art Cryptic Command)

[@AnonPer]

I want to make a "Promo Set" that includes a deck meant for the store owner to use for demonstrations, and play against other players if/when they need just one more player to play, so they can get as many to participate as possible: It would not be anything super-powerful, but would be a well balanced deck including cards from the current starter decks that were popular in testing.

[@kainhighwind2]

One thing you skimmed over with promos: Dragon Ball Super doesn't do reprint promos. They're all mechanically unique cards, which is a problem when one of the promos is a card that single-handedly makes a deck competitive, and is only good for that one deck.

[@camdencantwell846]

this is both helping me understand why Hasbro doesn’t provide any organized play support for beyblade in North America, and also making me angry that they don’t because I see Takara Tomy doing so much of this and more in Asia!

[@Hinaguy749]

I love the new Magic the Gathering companion app that simplifies event running, registration, automates the swiss pairings and even comes with a two person life tracker built in.

[@TheLuckySpades]

Now if only it would stop logging me out as I try to put in the results and I need to force it closed and log in again I love the updated tracker for commander, but the tournament part needs fixing

[@Njzeo]

The nostalgic feeling that rushed through me when the Pokémon TCG game music for the GB started playing

[@evilmidget]

Upper Deck did something similar with "unplayable" promotional cards for OTS. The Hobby Leage "parallel rare" promos are technically unplayable in tournament play due to the fact that they're slightly thicker than a normal card because of the film coating.

[@epicness877]

I think this man deserves AT LEAST 50k ;)

[@Buzterer]

The full art or fictional language thung can be solved by making players keep a normal copy or readable photo of the card on hand for the opponent to consult

[@josevelajr]

One of the best organized play prizes was the Keyforge leader board exclusive decks. The store would have a sealed event every week and the people that did the best at the end of the month would get an exclusive deck with alternate art cards. It was awesome to earn that deck and playing sealed was the best format. Hopefully Ghost Galaxy brings that back when they relaunch Keyforge.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

I didn't think of this aspect of card games. I am glad I spent so much time playing Pokemon TCG in Hastings during my youth. So I know what gaming events are like. This video gives me ideas of what I can do. I would like some point system where players earn points for participation. They earn promo cards. These promo cards are identical to regular cards, but with fancier visuals. The cards can come from an event pack. Occasionally the stores can host a tournament. As prizes they can have fancy items, like plastic tokens, deck boxes, playmats etc. The items come from a tournament pack. The stores can charge admission to tournament to offset cost of a tournament. I would charge event pack and tournament pack to stores. However I can have a deal where they are free with large orders of card products, which are sold to customers. I am not going to touch large events that go beyond individual LGS's. That is way beyond my scope as an indie artist.

[@tiozuradasexatas6754]

That background setup explains your sweet tooth with puns.

[@plebugen9659]

We had in store play again for about a year now.

[@bats10v]

I see that sneaky Ina hiding in the back there! XD

[@colinnewey7965]

I don't see why companies don't just offer a small league pack and a bigger tournament one, they could make the league pack for 8 players, and the tournament one for 16, but through in extra prizes for a bulk order, meaning you could easily turn the 8 player league into a 16 or 32 player game ,or the 16 player tournament into a 32 or 64 player one, allowing the gamestores to incremental buy in along with the players.

[@OrKkTeKk]

I still use my old L5r cardboard deck box, admittedly it holds my magic commander deck, but it's a quality and sturdy deck box. Long live the Crab Clan. If only FFG hadn't screwed up the game I'd still be throwing money at it.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Don't know if you know, but I just noticed this video isn't in the Seven Deadly Sins playlist.

[@UnderTheSkin13]

"Click the bell for notifications." *Doesn't notify you.* Thanks, youtube.

[@notsoninjaninja1819]

Lol I recognized one of the ppl in the opening roll during the yugioh tourney. Tbh I noticed a player had Terraforming in their grave, and the player I recognized is also a vendor.

[@bryanmerel]

I'm the 700th upvote. :D

[@midwestchief8968]

I hope the people in charge of gate ruler will see this one day

[@burritoboy5737]

Does anyone know what the first card game is shown at the very beginning with people playing in a tournament?

[@BENDER3461]

Well perhaps something you may wish to include in a further video related to community management is the supply of volunteers. At least store organisers usually get an incentive in terms of entrance fees and further selling of stock. But the judges and other organisers involved in official events which usually just receive a special stamped card for 2-4 hours of free labour at a tournament. I passed the Pokemon professor exam but couldn't find a community near me that wasn't full of abhorrent players and scalpers trying to sell their wares. It's a bit frustrating but it is something to balance for longer term games (Yu-gi-oh! Pokemon and I guess MTG too?)

[@Kohdok]

...Ya know most stores I play at disallow people selling their cards within. It's bad etiquette.

[@BENDER3461]

@@Kohdok Interesting! I think for the most part trading card game shops here in the UK are/were quite sparse so there's less ettiquette which is probably why the communities I've seen weren't quite tight on sportsmanship.

[@Kohdok]

@@BENDER3461 But yeah, stores are completely within their right to throw out people trying to sell their cards to other players, since it's THEIR store and THEY are the ones who pay the fees and rent to be allowed to sell cards at that location. In the USA, I've seen people get blackballed for trying to sell their cards inside a game store. The store went out of their way to make a scene about it.

[@BENDER3461]

@@Kohdok Perhaps with the local restrictions lifting in the UK, it will also mean stores will be very careful with how they regulate their spaces. 🤞

[@fearanarchy]

Epic Card Game, known for handling the physical support properly...

[@SofaKingDead]

I like promo cards over stuff like playmats.

[@Dwerynith]

10:14 Is this Ina !!!!!

[@ShinigamiKristak]

Indeed, he is maybe a takodachi.

[@drigoleus1055]

Hey kohdok would you review some transformers figures? Im really interested in your opinión

[@LuvzToLol21]

With mentioning that dice balancing doesn't really matter for Pokemon TCG. You don't roll dice as often as you just use them for stat tracking.

[@endtimestcg5146]

Within 11 Seconds....Big Tru Tru told!

[@DeconvertedMan]

cover heroclicks and mage knight !

[@kagemushashien8394]

Bonjour Mr. Kohdok, I like the information you put out on your "7 Deadly Sins" videos, and I'm trying to create my own card game, and I would like you to be the judge of it, it's developing slow and changing too much, I want your help. You see, it's hard to come up with something "Original", and to tell you something about me, I like doing things others has not done before or put it in simpler terms, I like to do something different, I want the game set up different from the Big 3 and other card games who failed to be on that podium, but are intresting enough to be kept alive like Bakugan, I have an idea but sadly, it's in a fog, and do to my ADHD and other stuff that is thrown my way, it's hard to squint and take a look see behind all that fog, it's there, but barely visible that I try to draw what's there, but it's so thick that it's like it's always changing, it's like playing what you call "Solitar in YuGiOh". So, if you are free, can and may you help me to shape the skeleton I'm making, and once the base is complete, I might do the rest if I can handle it, and if I can not, you can help me be ready since your more experienced than me, I'm very creative, but it's the smarts on creating a mechanic that will blow my audience's mind, and I would like to know, is it safe to use atleast 3 things from the video regarding the Duel Masters video about what makes them unique from MTG and others, I want to use: Power in increments of 1,000. Any card as a Resource or provided recourse. And the reversal mechanic. These 3 a very good at going with my idea and was hoping you can help me make it better, and I will right the rules on a great format like you asked everyone else, if you have Gmail, it is possible for me to share you a document or slides of the rules and thy ideas, if not, then I will happily share it via you make a video which we can discuss the TCG or we can chat here at low profile if needed, I await your command, and if you can not help, at least give me advise on not to screw my game up so bad, it needs a reset and a new name, thank you.

[@2Lainz]

You should try the Homemade TCG Discord

[@rokmare]

Lets be honest once the card game has enough casuals to buy their products publishers no longer cared about organized play even Mark Rosewater admits that only 10% of the player base go to organized events

[@markchang2964]

Nice

[@Shenaldrac]

0:08 Please tell Catalyst Game Labs this. Also please talk about the battletech card game even though it's dead.

[@DXKramer]

I actually have the L5R lunchbox. It's funny.

[@TheModernGafa]

How exactly are boxtoppers supposed to work? I've only gotten Digimon cards online because it's the ONLY way to get them right now, so I've gotten all of the boxtoppers that way. But for a brick and mortar store... how does the boxtopper work? Does it go to the first person to buy from a box? Are they just given out willy nilly? They're also usually just normal cards with the same art but like slightly different backgrounds or something - they're not worth it and I resell all of mine.

[@Stinkoman87]

Usually the box topper is inside the booster box. When the store opens boxes to sell the individual packs, I assume the box topper goes in to the singles case.

[@SuperCelestial123]

I think You are confusing between boxtopper and dash pack

[@pyredynasty]

Box toppers are usually in the box and if the store opens the box they get it to sell. There is also a buy a box bonus that is separate but the store isn't usually allowed to sell those separately. These exist to get people to buy a whole box instead of individual packs.

[@vitorluiz7538]

I see people talking about Ina, while I spotted a random Brazilian flag in the store background at 8:21🤔

[@tiozuradasexatas6754]

Se der uma pesquisa reversa, talvez dê pra saber de onde é a loja.

[@tabuukiller13]

I love the digimon card game but htey really need to learn proper promos. go back and forth between good and bad promo design thankfully rarely anything meta defining (pulsemon, potentially the Diaboromon). past that great video as always.

[@Ultra_DuDu]

Eyespy should get some leçons form this one. Or from other videos...

[@cohenmarioman]

Darn over halfway in and Yu-Gi-Oh! Discussion?

[@Stinkoman87]

Yugioh has a pretty standard organized play system. Participants get a pack of reprints, and it's up to the store owners to determine the prizes for the top player (usually sure credit in my experience). The most interesting thing about it are what's in the packs. The lower rarity cards are reprints of previously high rarity cards, improving your chance of getting what you need just for showing up. And conversely, the higher rarity cards are reprints of popular but formerly low rarity cards, now foiled out so you can bling out your deck. It's worked pretty well for them for over a decade now I believe.

[@epicness877]

How blessed we are that we can blame card game companies instead of each other lol 🙂

[@Rensen100]

I wanna see that extendet art of Blue-Energy

[@dunemayberger2210]

Is the PO Box still working?

[@Kohdok]

Yes

[@Diazdelosmuertos]

Ina in the back chilling

[@FurinArt]

10:10 i actually laughed out loud

[@ivanespinozacayupan9288]

Wait a minute, why am I at the 0:23?

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

Is it a good idea to have the final game be against the creator of the game who has a deck made entirely out of unreleased cards and if I am defeted the winner gets my deck

[@pyredynasty]

Only if you steal the soul of your players close family members to force them to play.

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

@@pyredynasty to be honest that's probably the only way I can get people to play my card game

[@chaoticjexak]

on the subject of diff language/textless promos: i think these are fine as rewards if the card in question is a staple or iconic card where practically everyone knows what it does. like the textless promo lightning bolt. its lightning bolt. pretty much everyone knows what it does. or using a japanese MST- its mst. we know what mst does.

[@vongolajames]

😊😊😊

[@angelpulido9351]

Comment for engagement

[@tylerduncan7115]

15:45 RESOUCES

[@nirast2561]

This doesn’t help that much with getting the game out there and is more for already established games, but how about this: A pack or halfpack… from the next expansion! These already go into production some time before they release, so why not give people a sneak peak at what’s to come?

[@fernandobanda5734]

Isn't it a terrible feeling to get a prize you can't use yet?

[@horusschnopp1882]

That would potentially cut into profits as people may be less willing to buy a pack if they got the card they want. A promo card for the next expansion might work but anything more than a controlled, singular card would be too much.

[@louispangno9595]

24:41 game reviewers 😶

[@ArtanesCS-Rockon]

Only 7 minutes in but it looks like MTG isn't mentioned in here anywhere? I'm shocked you always manage to have these discussions without discussing how the most successful card games do it. Midway update: There was a nexus of fate, but the idea that that card existed in limited quantities was actually a misconception. More MTG buy a box promos are printed than any given mythic in a set, and more are available for at least the first 6 months of a sets release. If its a set that doesn't sell well (like the Core set Nexus of Fate was released along-side) this may remain the case for longer. If you do a follow up on this, that might be a worthwhile correction to include. Final edit: You used some Magic video at the end, and it might have been worthwhile to not organized play is so expensive that even the oldest and one of the biggest card games is phasing out tournament play at the highest level because its so expensive for so little reward. It turns out, major events like MTG's Pro Tours do not aid in selling cards. They also don't meaningfully influence people starting to play the game. The Pro tours being on ESPN2 didn't help the game explode, it only served to make 2-3 individuals more well known amongst the already super enfranchised players.

[@supermysterious66]

MTG's Pro Tour was phased out in favor of the "new and shiny" e-sports league thing that no one understood how to get in or how it worked, and in a couple of years they then cut that off, since no one liked the "new and shiny" e-sports league thing. Pro tour was much cheaper on WotC than the "new and shiny" e-sports league thing, so I call bullshit on cost being the sole reason why.

[@fearanarchy]

Dear Bushiroad, You are bad at most of this. See Dragoborne and Luck & Logic.

[@Closer2Zero]

If a store that I go to to play every week has product that’s available and reasonably priced, that I will definitely buy from them. But it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to constantly be buying packs from them just so they can open all the stuff they need. If they want players to spend a lot of money there, especially the players who play week after week after week, they need to have a wide selection of specific pieces of product that a player is going to need to buy from the Internet anyway, and it Has to be at a reasonable price. I’m not gonna pay more out-of-pocket at the local game store just to be nice to them. Not if they’re not offering product that I need or is reasonably priced

[@pyredynasty]

Think of it as paying rent for commercial real estate because that's literally why stuff costs more in an lgs.

[@rewrose2838]

Just make your games online so we can all avoid any unnecessary social aspects of table top gaming 😂

[@SageYT7709]

I still badly want a way to play physical trading card games with an AI. Trading card games should be enjoyable by single people. You shouldn't have to interact with other humans to play a trading card game. Also, TCG devs should offer cash as prizing.

[@tiozuradasexatas6754]

The very concept of _Trading_ requires at least 2 people. You can collect cards with no personal interaction whatsoever, but to trade is another story. Also, cash as a prizing can be nice, but the problem is that the bulk of players simply don't care. Either they only go to local events, or even don't participate in organized play. Sometimes, players can even feel obligated to rise quickly in the rankings to be respected, and when this doesn't happen they get frustrated and quit the game; though this is more a community problem rather than a dev problem. It's an overrated feature. I think cash prizing should exist if the devs are interested in making the game become sportlike. This includes not only live event coverage on every major championship (and maybe some minor ones), but also a professional or semi-professional system, where licensed players are encouraged to write articles, be present at events and also teach aspiring professionals. But then again, the game has to show it has sufficient complexity to the point that professionalism is justified, and not every game hits that threshold.