Thoughts on Citadel V.S. Motohara/Evolution Blades

[@Boggsy.]

Great video man, very interesting, thank you. Wish I’d found your channel earlier on, it’s a great resource. Your delivery of both the objective information & opinion is on point IMO, despite any “rambling” that you poke fun at yourself for.

[@Matthew_Jensen]

Glad you like the channel.

[@317consulting5]

Man , I love high end and other katana and your videos are awesome!!

[@vaughnsangalang7934]

good luck on the cutting man hopefully you can compete professionally as you said

[@88997799]

Nice to see the Citadel Ocean in your collection. You’ll only need to remove the extra polish on the blade when ya take it into war. I’m sure the sun reflects quite well off a very shiny blade. I think citadel put a good polish on it but didn’t overdo it. The wave carvings just add the extra pop on all the part for the almost the same cost of the bamboo and lotus is why I picked it. So what’s serial number is your ocean? Are you going to get a matching wakizashi for one of your Citadels? The Ocean Tanto deal fell through when owner of CASibera kept it. It was so sweet because it matched everything on the katana and wakizashi. I even asked for the bo-hi and the kissaki that you’re not crazy about. Big tip means the blade penetrates in deeper as the blade narrows down and follows the larger kissaki. Achieving max stab depth. The kissaki is what I think makes citadel blades very unique. The owner of a citadel sent me picture of his very old sword that has the same kissaki but I don’t remember the year or maker of the blade. He said it was about 600-700 years old. Would’ve been a sweet and the only three sword set if the ocean tanto deal would’ve happened. The owner Eluere at a Citadel wasn’t sure how it would look as I said what I wanted. Eluere said he was shocked at how it looked and said he wasn’t sure it would look as great as it ended up. CASibera claimed it was lost for almost a month before they just said it’s not for sale because the owner kept it. Email him at citadel and I’m sure he will send you a pic of the sword they copied and tel you the info. Doesn’t make sense they would follow all these traditional steps to make the sword and then put something on the sword that has never been. So what citadel model is your favorite?? Could it be ocean?

[@Matthew_Jensen]

I don't think that really changes things much.. If the tip is modeled after a specific and obscure example from history, then it is an odd duck today. It is not that the tip is bad, it is that it is strange. Strange in comparison to both antiques and other modern blades.

[@88997799]

Matthew Jensen I just think the ocean kissaki will just pass through a person like hot knife dropped in butter. I think a larger kissaki and a smaller body blade will stab deeper with a sword that’s smaller than the kissaki. The kissaki stabs and the blade follows without issue because the channel created is larger than the blade. Almost like an arrow head sitting on a arrow shaft. Arrows pass through a deer or bear like they are made of air as they are ripping through bone and muscle tissue. This could be the best kissaki ever designed but japan never realized how much better it is.... it’s not impossible. Wish I could remember name of maker and year his sword was made. Maybe a test using all your top blades and see what kissaki stabs the easiest and most depth into some massive thick mats with the least amount of force. I guess a live test will confirm what kissaki works the best. Ya got a new video idea!! Somehow I have a feeling citadel will be the winner. I think strangeness of the ocean kissaki what makes it so special. Ya gotta admit it’s unique and not seen anywhere else in old or modern blades.... I’ve seen a few close but not exactly the same. Also the thickness of the blade edge or shinogi just below the Bo-Hi is 5.5mm then the edge above the Bo-Hi and below the mune or back is smaller at 3.2mm.... So as the blade cuts past the shinogi the blade drops its thickness from 5.5mm down to 3.2mm so the wound channel is wider then the blade. Same as the kissaki. Probably why the ocean design cuts so efficiently.

[@88997799]

@@Matthew_Jensen Called CAS Iberia today… the ocean katana and wakizashi have hit the 100 for katana and 20 for wakizashi… no more will be made. What’s for sale online now is all that remains. Well at least I have a set of both blades!! 😇

[@poolboywillis1225]

Hell yeah bri I love these man hands down best sword info channel for the good shit

[@scottjua]

Great video! Love my motoharas but would also.like to try Citadel's. I wonder if they'll come out with a new model sometime.

[@robertmccarter8010]

I’ve owned a couple of Citadel blades and you have me convinced Motohara may be the superior product. May have to keep my eye out for a used one. I have studied the citadel blade shape (especially the kissaki) extensively and I noticed they look like a hybrid of shinogi zukuri and unokubi zukuri.

[@Matthew_Jensen]

I think the irksome part is that folks say it is a historic shape and I cannot find the example. Even if it is, it is something of a curiosity rather than a norm. Don't get me wrong, I like the look but don't agree with the prestige.

[@robertmccarter8010]

For sure. I’d take the bet that there is no historic example of the blade. Especially the ocean/bamboo blade. The weird ledge where the mune meets the kissaki looks like a naginata (unokubi). But I’ve never seen a blade with that tip and a shinogi that runs the length that also has a bohi. I spend a fair amount of time on aoi art looking for an antique I can afford and I’ve never seen a blade like the citadel. A citadel owner can keep their prestige and just call it modern art haha.

[@possiblyunhealthyobsession9794]

You could always have one made for you so that you end up with a custom blade purpose built to your needs vs a used one. But they do have one for sale on the website currently.

[@Cloudfencer]

Would you say these are serviceable for soft targets like water bottles? I don’t have access to tatami mats or a stand so water bottles are my choice for cutting practice. And it’s not for backyard beating, I do practice proper technique.

[@lonewolf7430]

Could u do a video on cleaning a katana and how you clean it?

[@shanewright344]

That Citadel Ocean Katana is beautiful. I would love to own one

[@88997799]

I have ocean katana and the wakizashi. Just short review of my katana. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJKTY3qtopl9iNk

[@davidkelley8964]

Love my ocean, waited a year and a half for it, worth it

[@shanewright344]

@@davidkelley8964 I don't know if I could be patient enough to wait 18 months for a sword, especially when I take the price point into consideration. Even though Citadel started taking orders for a limited number of Ocean katana's again a little while ago (although, I haven't checked up on that in about a month, so I have no idea if they're taking orders at this very moment), it's just over $4000 CDN for a brand new one. If I had that kind of money, I would definitely have one made. I might have to wait until someone puts their's up for sale

[@shanewright344]

@@88997799 I watched your review, and you're very lucky to have a Citadel Ocean in your collection. I'm a little jealous! Lol

[@davidkelley8964]

@@shanewright344 I paid for it, then they backordered it; promised they would get them in stock. It was a long wait for sure.

[@shadowfox2814]

This video make me more impatient for my Motohara. Will you be doing reviews on the Multipurpose Cutter and the Citadel Ocean?

[@88997799]

That’s what I’m waiting for is review on the ocean. I have the ocean katana and wakizashi.

[@steveward8086]

I would also love a Ocean review. I got one on back order currently purchased... just waiting on Cambodia to re open! >

[@victordasilva547]

Could you do a video on what parts to pick when making a semi custom katana?

[@basletGrenetpro]

I would like to know about the Katanasforsale company, the swords are made in Longquan China, most custom, according to their website. is there a big company behind them?

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Go to sword buyers guide. Most of those companies are random middle men.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Specifically read the stuff on sbg. But know they are a middle man too. Stick to websites like Kult of Athena till you know more and bigger brands like hanwei and the like. For a budget sword look at feilong.

[@Miciah-j1v]

Would you recommend this when cutting bamboo?

[@CB-uc2zm]

I have a evolution d2 hard target cutter on order right now.

[@johnrohrkaste2073]

Looking at ordering from them. Definitely would want to learn more about the steel options they offer

[@cesarjeannottat3984]

Merci de vos informations !!!

[@Katana-Karl]

I dont own a Citadel and never had the privilege to handle one buy my custom Motohara was worth every penny.

[@edwamser]

I love my Motohara L6 as well.

[@shadowfox2814]

Which geometry did you go with? I have a heavy bamboo cutter on order.

[@Katana-Karl]

@@shadowfox2814 I went with the shinogi zukuri. I have a review and cutting video if you want to check it out!

[@Katana-Karl]

@@edwamser Oooooo L6? Nice! Mine is made from Sks3. I have a review and cutting video I hope you check it out

[@shadowfox2814]

@@Katana-Karl I've actually watched your videos several times in anticipation for my Motohara. In getting one made out of SGT steel.

[@vaughnsangalang7934]

whats the best steel for a motohara blade cause im not familar with any of the steel they use except L6

[@Matthew_Jensen]

I have an SKS3 and and L6.. I think they have another type. Both of the versions I have are good for what they need to cut.

[@TonTHunT]

Im looking into getting a beater or backyard cutter I'm between the JKOO Dotanuki katana or a ronin dojo pro #14. Do you have any advice as to which would be better?

[@KF1]

Pardon the interposition if this question was directly for the uploader, but I can say that the benefit of the ronin is also it's drawback. Those extra ounces on the thick dojo pro make it unwieldly. I had to grind my ronin down to *1200g before it felt like a sword. Personal bias: I really don't like heavy swords. F=MxA, both for starting and stopping. The Ronin can be hell on the shoulders and elbows during extended use.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

@@KF1 my dojo pro handles really well buuuuuut Mines weird. Handle and saya quality sucks on them all but Mines extra bad. That said my blade is more proper. Handles nice distal and profile taper. Got a ghost hamon but it does run off the blade. Has proper niku vs flat ground. Kissaki while some waves that can be fixed is done pretty nice aside from polish. It's like properly reinforced. I have one with the standard sori but it's curved more then standard as well. Tsuka is also a half inch long. But the blade is nice enough I literally considered having it polished to mirror polish hybrid method sharpness brought up. And whole new mount. Valid points though they are beasts still. And even with what I consider a good example of the ronin blades and it being pretty accurate it's still more club like then the original style they're supposed to be based off and less refined geo wise. But with a heavy tsuba I think they'd handle normally if you got a good blade. Bad one like my friends. Nah. His handle is fit better and wood isn't as bad as mine. Mine seemed okay for awhile then shit went bad.

[@KF1]

@@bmxriderforlife1234 Yeah if you're buying it for the blade and have the resources or skill to modify, then not a bad way to go for some. My ronin handle wrap fell off about a week into using it. Thankfully no problems with saya, other than it's light as a feather. My dojo model 1 has the temper line running just above the habaki, so I can see a crosswise line of crystallization there, which is kind of annoying. I feel it should be below the habaki and not visible when mounted. They are tough, no doubt about it, but I wouldn't buy another, personally.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

@@KF1 yeah you only ever need one. I think they're better offer as a shirasaya when on sale cheap. Not sure if budget polish/sharpening options still exist but used to be a few to get the blades wobble free sharper and such for a couple hundred. A budget mount with cast fittings and such you could probably get a nice dojo beater type tool for around 1k. Full same wrap tsuka fresh core and such and still have a shirsaya. But I've noticed from a quick look blanks for saya aren't as easy to find cheap good ones anymore. And handle wrap services a new good budget place would be needed. Sharpening if still available also let you adjust weight with the one place I knew. Cleaning up the nakago wouldn't be hard for anyone. Doesn't need to be perfect or fancy just remove burrs. Tsunami ito. It'd probably last forever as a dojo tool for when you don't wanna abuse the nice clayed blade. 125 for a decent habaki you can mod and a blade with shirasaya isn't bad. 250 to sharpen it right up and reprofile slightly if need be wasn't bad. Wait time sucked. Cheap steal tsuba wouldn't be much. A file is all you need to fit it or even sand paper and a flat thin piece of wood. Seppa are the same. Finding fittings to fit the blade might be annoying for nicer ones but basic steel should be easy and can always go with a horn kashira. Mount is the big expense. And same but I'd go with a cheaper quality skin that is just pure function. Find one the right size and may as well wrap and a half vs full wrap. But hit or miss quality on blades might make it more then minor reprofile work and bringing the edge up. Strength will be there though. Can't disagree if you can do a good portion of the work yourself it's nice value either way. Making a tsuba isn't hard. And for an entry level custom. You could get something like a mono temper motohara build quality wise once done for less by at least a few hundred if not really close to just a grand all in. And still be able to do stuff like mokume tsuba buying blanks online. Or even antiques on a budget. At around a grand not many swords have great fit and finish koshirae wise equal to stuff like motohara or citadel while having tough blades. At least that I am aware of. And I'm of the opinion a good mono temper sword is a useful too as well as having a differentially hardened blade. Could also cast a handle onto one for a cool shit hits the fan weapon. 125 for the shirasaya is kind of a steal imo. And why I don't justify their full retail price.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

@@KF1 oh and mine came with the end knot overly long so I managed to pull mine tighter at one point. But the handle dried out shifted crooked and yeah. And I'm in Canada near a lake so not dry climate by any means. Wrap sucks though on them. Saya are indeed light but surprisingly not too weak at least. Hit mine empty bare times off shit. Dented in areas though and lacquer chips if you look at it wrong. I'm sad about the handle on mine. It was shaped soooo nice. Similar to one on a Japanese sword I have just slightly beefier but blade size difference. And none of the handle fittings are done proper. Fuchi is off center slightly. Kashira as well. I had another one but not sure what I did with it lol. Got them on sale direct from ronin. Not sure if they still do but their old sales used to be bomb. Still half tempted to get an elite but I hear the edges chip easily. Would be a pretty project and motohara did a Mas remount for someone so theoretically I could get them to mount one up. But paying for them to mount a blade up maybe have it polished and order something is gonna have my wallet hating me. And then koshirae choice probably times two.

[@hosamalani]

Trying to buy a citadel katana and can’t seem to find one. Any ideas?

[@charlesmayo4342]

Does anyone sell just the blades without handle and fittings I want to try to make my own handle and Scabbard my self

[@slicksmokegaming9857]

Yah just google bare blade katanas there are some good options even hanwei sells them I belive

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Ronin has some. You can even get fancy dojo elite laminated blades from them.

[@FatguyLittlecoat]

Are you the guy that’s on the phone with jake from state farm

[@marcuslee3090]

Can citadel swords cut through bone like skull and where’s the motahara made in

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Motohara is made in Korea. Citadel should but most people probably don't test them on stuff like that. But yeah it should. Edge might get a tad dinged but normal for hard targets.

[@waterforgizmo3232]

Hello Mathew Weird question! But if anyone would know I think it would be you! I have a Musashi cakaratna 1060, and it’s fine it does its job, but I would like something nicer! I would like to build my own katana. I’ve seen websites like swords of Northshire but I’m not quite sure about them. Why can I buy the same Tsuba and everything else on a $100 blade that I can on their $3000 option!? Kinda sketchy I was wondering if you knew of anyplace I could buy the parts individually and put it together myself? Or would a site like swords of Northshire be a better option? If so what site do you recommend? I can get a blade and Saya really easy it’s the Tsuba, menuki, Kashira, and Fuchi I’m having issues finding

[@Matthew_Jensen]

Yamato Budogo, namakawa, and ebay.. probably spelling stuff wrong.. You can find parts there, Saya you will need to make yourself.

[@BenPhou]

Have you done a video on your all time favorite swords recently?

[@Matthew_Jensen]

Something like that kzbin.info/www/bejne/imPSaoCZec2ai7s

[@88997799]

Apparently not... he said his battle sword for war would be the citadel. Not sure if he is thinking the ocean, bamboo or lotus

[@erichusayn]

Very interesting video. I think the customization options on the motohara alone would cause me to lean th towards them if I had $2500+ to spend on a katana...

[@anthonyprevost3968]

Not necessarily. You can get a good motohara for 1700+ with basic fittings. They’ll even start production of blades with half down then pay as you go until it’s finished, which gives you roughly two months to pay the rest of it off

[@erichusayn]

@@anthonyprevost3968 right. But if you're already in it for $1700 may as well throw the extra G in to get nicer fittings, steel, and whatnot.

[@anthonyprevost3968]

@@erichusayn yeah I hear ya on that lmao that’s the boat I’m currently in.. I’m ordering one from them in the coming months. I’m going high speed steel which is 3300 starting point I believe with a 650 for sharpening and if I’m already at there I might as well splurge for silver fittings, silver menuki, silver tipped tsuba and ishime saya whichll put it at 6250. In for a penny in for a pound as they say

[@anthonyprevost3968]

Oh wait sorry 6075 as I decided against the termination hi

[@erichusayn]

@@anthonyprevost3968 right.

[@88997799]

Called CAS Iberia today… the ocean katana and wakizashi have hit the 100 for katana and 20 for wakizashi… no more will be made. What’s for sale online now is all that remains. Well at least I have a set of both blades!! 😇

[@jmc2235]

Lol, I think I almost bought that Ocean katana off SBG forum a month or so ago.. Because of the price (seemed low) and the fact it was obvious it had been sharpened I was scared to take the risk. Did I miss out on a good one???

[@Matthew_Jensen]

Yes, that is the one and it is a great example of what you can get second hand. It has condition issues but still plenty of life left in the sword.

[@erengamingyt624]

Awesome 😊 😃

[@AdoreYouInAshXI]

The Citadel Ocean is my dream katana. I would love to own one but $2700 is just not in my budget for a sword, lol. I felt bad enough when I spend like $1200 on a Albion Chieftain

[@shanewright344]

I know what you mean. The citadel ocean is actually making a return, although in a limited run right now (reliks.com is currently taking orders for the sword at the moment: www.reliks.com/functional-japanese-swords/ocean-citadel-katana-limited-edition/). I would love to have it, but it's almost $4000 CDN, and that's just not in the budget. I'm certain Cult of Athena has it for at least $1000 cheaper, but last time I checked, they're no longer accepting orders for the sword.

[@88997799]

It’s worth it... I love mine. Ordered the ocean wakizashi also... need to do review on both and upload. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJKTY3qtopl9iNk

[@CountOrlok22]

I've never bought from Motohara, but after seeing this video and browsing some images, I'm liking what I see. What's the average price range?

[@crocketgsxr6]

they start at around $2,500 US

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

@@crocketgsxr6 nah. Check cottontail customs write up. They start at around 1700 usd 1800 for a l6 option it seems. 3k ish for the pricier options. However that's start and they have lots of options. And many aren't cheap. I'd wager a rayskin saya adds alot of expense. Custom it's like 35 dollars per inch or more at the most basic version. Emperor nodes vs not will add expense. Not sure if they offer full wrap tsuka but that vs panels. Wrap material. Fittings. Silver vs other stuff.

[@slicksmokegaming9857]

I like the Citadel but the Motohara def cut good. Do you know anything about samuraiswordstore or katanaforsale websites? Been trying to find info on them. Alot of the reviews on the site are positive but I'm unsure if I should use them or not. I guess a safer bet would be to go to a more well known forge but they are all over FB and internet when I google katanas so jw.

[@erichusayn]

Looked at them a bit more since your comment the other day. Pretty sure both of those places are like sinosword, ryansword, swords of northshire, etc. Generic Chinese forge. They're probably of reasonably decent quality, but not the best. Like everything else, you get what you pay for...

[@slicksmokegaming9857]

@@erichusayn I understand the get what you pay for analogy. Price wise they have swords in the thousands price range. I see their stuff all over so have just been trying to find out more. I have a T10 folded and clay tempered blade on the way in couple week from them. Supposed to be 62 rockwell hardness and 8192 layers..spent around 700 it was 845 but "on sale" anyway guess I'm nervous about my purchase. Ty for answering and youre opinion :) if I remember i'll let you know what I think of the blade when I get it and do some testing.

[@erichusayn]

@@slicksmokegaming9857 cool. Should do a video when you get her.

[@Driftxcess1]

I would be wary of those guys....it is hard to get someone to talk to and them swords are pricey for what they are. Chances are you could take the same specs to somewhere like jkoo or Ryansword or Huawei and get a better price and quality.

[@slicksmokegaming9857]

@@Driftxcess1 thanks for your op appriciate it. I aleady ordered if the specs are as advertised and its decent ill be happy. If its trash I will def let you guys know in a couple weeks :) edit: I can say I have emailed them a couple times about my order and concerns and they have responded everytime and answered my questions but the end product is what matter's fingers crossed..

[@johnsonthetoucher902]

I need help with buying a decent and cheap katana from RoninKatana.com but I am on the fence and don’t know which to buy? Any suggestions?

[@88997799]

Both of your terms seem to contradict each other because decent and cheap don’t work together. Pick one...

[@Matthew_Jensen]

I have done a number of videos on their stuff. It should give you some idea what to expect in terms of performance. From there buy what you like. I am personally a sucker for swirly mitsudomoes.

[@johnsonthetoucher902]

Matthew Jensen thanks I will be sure to watch them all and leave a like on the videos 👍

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Okay depends. Beater or budget proper learning tool. Keep in mind you'll want both eventually and slowly upgrade their quality as you stay in it for time. If it's for fun dojo pro. Dojo pro as the beater. Rk as a budget clayed blade that'll bend if you aren't on point.

[@tommybrowne8759]

This video is from a year ago. my big problem with Citadel is the price vs. what the actual product manufactured they hand make most of the sword but when visiting there fcatory in Cambodia they strike the patterns for the fuchi and koshira and the habaki is stamped and molded and hand finish, the tsuka is a full wrap of quality samagaway and the ito and sageo are japanese silk. Now here is my point, the blade of a traditional Katana is suppose to carry the (minimum) of 60% of the entire value of a sword and all they use is a 1070-75 or (DNH7) from the UK and its a monosteel blade as well between 1060-1095 I am confused about why the price is $2900? the blade alone they provide is at most a $300 dollar blade unfolded, so the furniture including the Saya are 2500 to 2600?? seems wrong to me. The Motohara is a very closely made katana to the traditional japanese models probably due to the Japanese occupation of Korea and have traded extensively with materials and blade knowledge. Thankyou for all your videos Matthew

[@slicksmokegaming9857]

New content awesome :)

[@Sareth94]

Have you seen this thread on SBG regarding Motohara / Evolution Blades? sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61680/motohara-price-korea it suggests that Motohara are selling vastly price-hiked Katanas from a S.Korean Smith "OneSword". It has some proof and some nasty accusations - would you mind perhaps mind digging into the matter?

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Well the Smith himself removed the one post dude linked too. And some of the swords he shows in the thing aren't exactly the same. I wager its down to a language barrier and he meant blade. And then obviously the more options part is true. But he does seem to be missing the point of warranty and such. Plus seems like the Smith is picky who he sells too and or wait lists of a year or more. I wouldn't be surprised. However. Korea has high export taxes. Like extremely high. And other shit. It plays a part in the tech industry and products made there as well. Then throw in life time warranty on bends. Big customer services bits in other regards. Pretty high accuracy of quality and customer satisfaction you may not get Smith direct. Translator services. And arranged shipping to you as the Smith won't ship them to you outside Korea and even in Korea makes people pick them up in person. Plus no easy method to get them here. And certain business expenses and obligations. And evolutions blades has obviously helped refine them. Further seems prices may have gone up from the post dude used to start the discussion and later on it gets into talk about threats and such. I'd wager its a case of most of the Korean sword market sells alot of their local stuff under the table pure cash and can't pass those prices on to us. Few other weird brands have used Korean smith's. The one had questionable quality where these are good. Could also be a case of same Smith. I doubt that since quality jump. But the other I know used to pull thaitsuki nihonto games and trick unknowing people into buying what they thought were Japanese made swords some how made in Korea lol. I'd be more likely to wager that could be a connection but I'd still doubt it. Might sour some but meh. Middle man seller smith's work is good it's good who cares what their business practice is when that's not what you're dealing with. Hence why I wager its a case of something that means we can't get those prices as well. And throw taxes in and the other stuff. Either way better value then many other swords and more custom then anything similar price point and quality. You can change blade geo and such. Theme. Color scheme.

[@WitcheryToday]

😢 So I can't kill a man with it in Reno, just to watch him die?😢