KTM 890 & 790 Camshaft Issues #2, And New Cylinder Head Comparison Of Oil Gallery

[@michaelbdoherty]

Customers would be alot more understanding if KTM would just admit its a design fault. A British KZbinr who's cam failed on a new bike was told to his face it failed because he changed his own oil on the second ever oil change of the bike. Stop supporting a company that dosent stand behind its products.

[@shaunmatthews4609]

Have none of you ''gurus'' ever invested in a $10 endoscope? Could do the inspection properly in a couple of minutes instead of waffling on and on

[@slakk5093]

No joke, I bought a decent one for $20 on eBay 😂

[@pasbogdan]

Please provide a link that 10 £€$ small diameter(4mm or less)endoscope.

[@shaunmatthews4609]

@pasbogdan I bought mine on ebay when visiting the states. I think. Will look for the link

[@outdoorkreations7051]

Will that show the followers and journals

[@shaunmatthews4609]

@outdoorkreations7051 most definitely. You could shove it into or through any little space to see what is happening

[@RedRupert64]

The part number can be different because the head has been machined differently. The casting can be the same as before.

[@Mr.Bearded.Mechanic]

Thanks for the video, Sir! Now what would be nice to see if You could test each oil hole with like a syringe and water, or even better with a garden hose at constant fluid pressure ( like quarter opened hose, you know some manageable flow) and check the squirt pattern to see if the misalignment has any effect, like slower flow from the squirter or different shoot pattern. Most of us are really curious about this but have not tested this before or I am not aware of it. We would really appreciate it!

[@rafaellastracom6411]

As the saying goes, one definition of madness is doing the same thing time and time again while expecting a different outcome. It does not seem KTM has changed anything on the lubrication front. As a precaution I would take that small, vertical hole feeding the final orifice and open it up at least one millimeter in diameter. It´s easy to do and you ensure sufficient oil supply.

[@ssmith278]

The date and number is the casting. After it is machined, it may go by a different number, which may not be on the head. I've worked in a transmission facility and the part number changes after machining.

[@pasbogdan]

Is there any diagnostic done that icludes checking the oil nozle spray on a worn cam engine? Is there 1 of 100 shops that performs a nozle flow check when adjusting valve clearance? Thees nozles are not visible with cam top bearing installed.Only 1 of 8 is easy to inspect. Is there 1 of 100 shops that inspect the mesh filter when they check valve clearance? Are there lots of bikes with camwear that had oil changed at 5000 km for street/light offroad use or even after each hard offroad use that tahes more than 10 operating hours? Do you think 15.000 km for an oil change even for street use is normal?

[@cliftonsr]

@@pasbogdan the latest shop manual reads remove filter screen clean and replace back into the cylinder head. So when working on this bike people should know what they are doing. As the saying goes when all else fails read the instructions

[@Pompomgrenade]

That's a beautiful head for a paperweight on a desk😅 Don't ruin it by putting it back into the engine... KTM is all the rage but I'm going to stay horizontally opposed...

[@mattyb7736]

Not until your driveshaft universals sieze, then you will be horizontal 😂

[@chriswest2290]

I put a deposit down on a 890r. Then canceled because of these issues. I'll go mt09sp or triumph 765rs

[@marscruz]

I was looking at the 890 or a Street Triple 765 or a MT-09. The Triumph dealer is 3 hours away, the KTM dealer is in town and so is the Yamaha dealer. Looks like it's going to be the Yamaha for me. I have a lame '06 KTM 950SM in the garage. First and last KTM for me.

[@donnyjackson1908]

If you can center the bit by pushing it sideways that’s not a problem. The oil in that cavity will be under 20PSI or greater. The nozzle (jet) end will reduce creating the velocity. Unless the jet gets blocked i don’t see an issue here. Of course oil pressure needs to be adequate for this to work

[@richardsimpson3792]

It's about flow rate, not just pressure, as oil will take the line of least resistance: in the case of the KTM head, if it is obstructed or becomes turbulent at the point where the two drillings meet it will just flow to the next exit point: which in this case is probably a camshaft bearing. The pictures of failed cams that I have seen show some lobes worn away while others look like new. This indicates a localised lubrication failure: one very likely caused by an obstructed jet or misaligned drilling. I saw one brave guy crank his engine with the rocker cover off. The pathetic dribble from the oil jet didn't evn reach the cam lobe at cranking speed: so you will be getting excessive wear from the start. One the hardened layer wears off the cam lobe, then the part will wear down rapidly no matter what. I've looked at all sorts of explanations and the 'dirty garage' one is the only one that seems to me to be of merit.

[@zzim2853]

@@richardsimpson3792 Your friends example could have answered all this. The dribble oil jet location could have been diagnosed to see if the problem was a plugged passage from metal pieces or extremely poorly aligned oil passage. If he only saw a dribble at all locations he has an oil pressure issue. Mine upon inspection was clearly seeing oil getting squirted to the cam lobes. Too bad we didnt get some more from this guy, would have settle the issue maybe.

[@mk1dr770]

​@richardsimpson3792 although you are absolutely rigt , the head we watch here seems to be fine imo. The vertical hole is smaller in diameter , so overlapping close to its radius would be enough to create a cross section area larger than the vertical holes cross section area.i have seen several cross drillimg in so many castings, like old iron ones , and carburetors similarly, this type of drilling is not a surprise. Shouldn't be a problem if you have sufficient pressure. I don't know the oil jet size but for this design to work it should be considerably smaller than vertical hole.

[@noggintube]

DirtyGarageGuy's channel spoke about this issue some weeks ago. Mentioned about that mis-aligned cross drilling, and how when combined with the reduced thickness of the jets that screw in could be a big factor in the issue here.

[@cliftonsr]

@@noggintube so true, I did order some oil jets that should come in next week and I am looking into that possible scenario and will upload a part 3 for this to try and see if there is a fix for this problem and if KTM has resolved it yet

[@bananabrooks3836]

Yes, with far more clarity.

[@brandywell44]

DLC were an issue with Moto Guzzi 4V engines. Many were replaced under warranty with a counter measure fix of roller rockers.

[@2Wheels-Adventures]

The cross drilling of the oil passage being perfectly aligned with each other is not important. Remember that we are talking about oil, it is fluid. What is important that the intersection of the cross drilling has no restriction due to the nonblending of the miss aligned cross drilled passage. The flow must stay constant in volume until it reaches the jet nozzle. One must understand Bernoulli's principle where velocity and pressure are inversely proportional to each other. I own many KTMs and very disappointed in the engineering and quality control in their manufacturing process. Is the bottom line answer to the question of outsourcing the manufacturing of what used to be top quality machines, ie like the Boeing aircraft I have worked on for the last 36 years? Just saying, "Wake up KTM."

[@Brad-RB]

KTM does have a problem with these engines, but I don't think the cross-drilling is the cause.

[@cliftonsr]

@@Brad-RB that is why I have a set of jets on order to look and see how far back the threaded hole is taken up by the jets when installed to look at any other oil restriction possibilities

[@Brad-RB]

@@cliftonsr Keep us posted.

[@wernerxldata]

I guess the question is how consistent is the drilling, are there heads where the cross drilling is an issue or are jets mounted to deep where they block part of the oil flow. But that would just be part of the problem I guess. From what I've heard KTM replaced the followers by wider ones. Not sure if that's true. And the material of the camshaft just doesn't seem hard enough. But can't really confirm that either myself. In the end it's a shame, it's a brilliant engine, especially the 890R is a beast. It's still on my wishlist to be bought next season.

[@cliftonsr]

@@wernerxldata that is key, and I’ll be doing some testing and research coming up

[@hkk210]

Will the jet thread far enough in to interfere with the intersection?

[@cliftonsr]

I have some jets coming next week to try and figure out if that is an issue

[@Pompomgrenade]

Great episode of utube biker cribs🤌

[@davebeckner3721]

The screen is likely to catch small pieces of silicone that would clog the oil jets .

[@cliftonsr]

@@davebeckner3721 definitely better with it than without it

[@rorge007]

The jets are critical, are they so long that the base of the jet blocks the off set hole. If the base of the jet is blocking the off set hole a standard drill counter boring the jet so the taper just reaches the edge of the thread of the jet would create a passage for the oil

[@cliftonsr]

@@rorge007 very good point you made, that’s why I have a set of oil jets on order that should be delivered to me next week and I’ll do a follow up video for the analysis to look into seeing how close the back of the jet where the threaded hole is bored to

[@Kjutte1]

I agree I think the entry diameter is more likely to be hte problem. Also supply could be related asit seems to burn the cam more peripheral (I Don't know if this is the case on all occurrences)

[@Grenadyer]

If the aluminium shards blocking orifices/jets are to blame, as KTM implies by adding that filter, I wonder have KTM found any while servicing bikes/warranties.

[@cliftonsr]

@@Grenadyer I have that same question and would like to know if the ones with bad camshafts have the thimble screen filter in the cylinder head or not.

[@justmyself1000]

Problem is...those metal shards will clog that filter / strainer...then really reduced oil volume.

[@jonpeters5194]

the jet orifice is way smaller than any part of the oil channel so pressure is maintained. If the cross drilling is really off that is when you have an issue. there is no way to know the percentage of parts that are off but I bet it is way less than 10% or there would be many more complaints. That is not to say KTM is not at fault or is doing the right thing. the correct fix would be to re drill and re thread the nipple threads.

[@justmyself1000]

This is the updated new part number head? The old head had the defective oil passage bore. On my 21 890 Duke R...third oil change I had significant metal shavings on the drain magnets that could make a difference in oil volume in clogging the filter / strainer. My 21 should have the strainer. Hopefully next week I'll be able to get to inspect my cams and see. Many others also had quite a bit of metal on their drain plug magnets as well. You did give me (some) piece of mind when you showed those shavings from (I'll call it) sloppy machining. I'm glad it's that and not some type of metal on metal interference. But having said that; in this day and age...the machining should be MUCH better than this! I appreciate you showing that strainer / filter. When I open my valve cover, I'll take off that sensor and inspect and/or clean out that filter. And if it has significant shavings....I'll send pictures to KTM and post them...

[@peterjamesmurray1]

Wanted to watch the whole video, but couldn't. I'd rather you got to the point with the head already out of the box. Give the information instead of rambling. Just trying to help you out. Cheers.

[@noelwoods7589]

I concur

[@wesb123]

Never heard of scrubbing?

[@peterjamesmurray1]

@@wesb123 You have completely missed the point.

[@alexstan5358]

Valve clearenses are too tight and then cam lobes wipes off oil film from lobes and camshaft followers, open valve adjustment to maximum, make them run loose... Set them to 0.25mm for intake and 0.40mm for exhaust and run thinner full synthetitc oil like 10W40

[@cliftonsr]

@@alexstan5358 I have heard that point made by other technicians because as soon as the valve is seated the clearance between the cam lobes and the followers allows oil to get in between so too much clearance can make it run noisy but it has to have clearance not only for the valve to properly seat but also for the oil to be a barrier between the contacting parts

[@RedRupert64]

If the clearance is too tight, the valve seats will burn. If the valve seats are okay, it's not down to the clearance.

[@jamescummings4130]

Not necessarily, if the clearance is minimal to barley anything then lubrication is compromised and the valve still operates as intended

[@wernerxldata]

Not sure about that, the mx and enduro bike run much tighter valve clearances and we run 10w60 oil in them, 250/350 engines run at almost 15K rpm. It uses the same type of mechanism with a cam lobe pressing a valve down through a follower.

[@Timboslicce]

Good information though

[@j.7937]

i remember the lc4 cam and rocker problems, the easy fix for those was running thicker oil. 10w-60. the others that discussed the issues found that the newer spec oils for epa and cat regs didn't have as good as additives to prevent "dry starts". and with thinner oils being spec'd for fuel mileages, i can see a lubrication issue that might, if the use of better spec oil(maybe more zzdp, mobil 20w-50, redline 20w-50) might compensate for the design flaws of the lc8, just like the lc4 was. that is what i am doing on my lc8. redline has a 10w-50( ktm spec weight) it has 2x the amount or close to it of zzdp(proven metal to metal lubrication) than that of motoex oil.

[@motozz8258]

Polished Turds are the best content providers .. Endless problems and fixs .

[@luisribeiro1973]

conclusion: KTM did a mess. time to change brands..... time to choose Honda.

[@cliftonsr]

I would like to get this channel off the ground so I do appreciate all who can like and subscribe so that information like this can be delivered to all who benefit and enjoy this type of content.

[@rorge007]

The filter will achieve nothing but reduce oil flow. If the jet is long enough to block the cross drillings no or very little oil will come out of the jet. Modify the engine end of the jet so oil can reach the small hole in the center of the jet. I do not believe the jets are blocking from debris

[@cliftonsr]

@@rorge007 I should be getting the jets in a few days for further investigation

[@cliftonsr]

At around 46 minutes in the video I explain a little more into the cross drilling scenarios

[@Timboslicce]

You jacking with that camera while you are recording is the same thing as someone chewing in my ear. Jesus

[@cliftonsr]

Sorry about that, I'll try and do better next time.

[@marscruz]

@@cliftonsr It's editing that you need to learn. Have a plan. Shoot the idea you're trying to demonstrate and if you screw it up do it over. I couldn't watch all this because you are wasting my time so I jumped to a few spots that looked interesting. You can do better but it takes planning and work.

[@LooxJJ]

Courtesy of CF Moto of China - give us your money, so we can give you worries and headaches :D

[@KLR-o8g]

Mind numbing!

[@martinfretwell]

Ktms have alot of problems ive read 1290 electrical problems plastic oil pump gears. Cams failing and zero warranty by the look of it. Plus exc 300 tpi fails. I like the ktm 790 but I'll stick with my t7 .

[@martinfretwell]

Boycott ktm if they dont admit faulty engine . There bikers are expensive

[@piterhonda]

KTM Ready to repair