Ladder line to 80 meter loop 2020 03 09

[@9999plato]

That's so cool. The mad professor shows all that home brew gear.

[@TheAppalachianWay]

Incredible is the only word I can think of. I hope one day I can comprehend the true magnitude of skill it takes to homebrew a tuner like that. 73’s

[@Circuit6040]

Thank you! I just updated my website with additional details on how I built my transmatch. www.remmepark.com/circuit6040/Link_coupled_transmatch/Link_coupled_transmatch.html

[@billtheslink4541]

Cool beans. Building a loop for 160 and up this spring. Going to use a traditional tuner and balun though, but the banana clip disconnect outdoors is a great idea. I am going to do that. Much quicker than unscrewing a pl259 and no equipment wear and tear. Good show.

[@reallybadaim118]

Impressive man. Really impressive. Hats off.

[@Circuit6040]

Thank you!

[@RolftheRed]

Love my loops. For some reason no one generally lets you know how quiet qrm is on them - compared to a vertical. Thanks for showing off!! DE N2RAG 73S

[@willian.direction6740]

Great set up, man you did some crawling under the floors to set that up.

[@Circuit6040]

Yes, not one of my favorite places in the house, but you do what you have to for Ham Radio :-)

[@David53D]

I've never seen anything so profound .

[@dalebertdurando1496]

I used a rope on all corners to hoist into 4 trees. The cleat works well for me too. Thought the loop impedance was closer to 100 ohms. Why such a high impedance ladder line? Seems the common 450 ohm ladder would be easier implement. Also, it seems the ladder impedance would be affected by running it against a wall. In the old TV days we ran the 300 ohm twin-lead out and away from walls or siding, and especially metal items, with a spacer. If you could set up a TDR measurement, you could see the impedance along the ladder line. Fun stuff.

[@Circuit6040]

Hello Dalebert Durando, Thank you for the question. I don't remember exactly why I chose to build 600 ohm line instead of 450. In my notes I do have the dimensions for 300, 450 and 600 ohm line (0.39 in., 1.27 in., and 4.77 in. spacing for #14 AWG) , so I do know I was considering various impedance lines at the time. I'm sure there was some advantage in my mind for the set-up I was running. The formula I used was: Z = 276 x log (2S/d) where Where: Z = line impedance, S = center to center dist of conductors (in.), d = diameter of conductors (in.) Also see: [ www.qsl.net/co8tw/openline.htm ] 73 - Rick - N3FJZ

[@melvance7281]

I would try changing the impedence and use a parallel coax system to feed it out of the basement. Now. I don't know the impedance you are using, but. You can approximate with parallel coax and eliminate/ reduse interaction with metal objects along the run

[@andrzejpl9897]

Can’t believe what is going on those farms in America ! 😂 73 !

[@acestudioscouk-Ace-G0ACE]

Thanks for an informative video. I'm a returning ham after a 30yr hiatus for career and family and would love to build something like this. You mention that you made a square configuration; could it be rectangular. My plot is long but narrow. I have approximately 300x40ft available for an antenna, with trees 30-40ft at one end and 20ft masts at the other. I know it's not high enough but worth a try?

[@Circuit6040]

You're most certainly welcome, I'm thrilled you were inspired by my video; also, welcome back to the hobby, I too took some time away from the hobby in the late 80's, returning in 2009. In my opinion, yes, erecting a full wave loop is most definitely worth the effort. With your shorter dimension of 40 feet, you could erect a square 40 meter loop (each side around 34 feet) and should get good results on 40M, 20M, 17M, 15M, 12M, 10M & 6M (provided you employ an antenna match [i.e. antenna tuner] that is happy with the non 50 ohm impedance the antenna would present to the transmitter and good low loss coax, or better yet, ladder or window balanced feed line); however, getting any match on 80M and 160M would be very difficult and the radiated power would be low with most of the power being converted to heat in the coax feed line and antenna match (in the case of open wire ladder or feed line, most of the loss would be in the antenna match since losses in open line are very low). I believe I read that you can feed a full wave loop with 50 ohm coax and a balun, but I have never done this, my 80M loop is the only antenna I have ever used on HF, and I have only used it with homebrew 600 ohm open feed ladder line and my homebrew link coupled antenna match, so you would have to do some research there. Also, keep in mind that if your full wave horizontal loop is closer to the ground than 1/2 wavelength, the angle of maximum gain is mostly up, which is great for "local" contacts (< 400 miles), but not the best for DX. You could still do a stretched out 80M and perhaps a 160M horz loop, but it starts to act more like a folded dipole from what I've read. For insulated antenna wire, just use the formula (Loop wire total length = 964.8 / lowest frequency you expect to transmit on) as a starting point and experiment from there ;e.g. 40M loop 964.8 / 7 = 137.7 feet (34.4 feet each side) (uninsulated wire would be loop wire length = 1005/F) . I found this link which might be helpful. It explains the theory of full wave loops for many different configurations: practicalantennas.com/theory/loop/full-wave/ I hope this provides some help. 73 N3FJZ.

[@acestudioscouk-Ace-G0ACE]

@@Circuit6040 Thanks so much for the detailed reply. I really appreciate it. I will certainly try a square loop and in time might experiment with a rectangular loop as I have plenty of length in the plot. It would be a pity not to give it an experimental try. I have a feeling I may end up with the square loop you suggest and maybe a dipole or doublet for 80 and 160. It seems we have things in common, a life long interest in radio and long break in our pursuing the hobby. My break was for career and family but now in semi retirement, I can play radios again! Best 73s and thanks again for your time and consideration.

[@daveengstrom9250]

Is that a home made antenna tuner?

[@Circuit6040]

Yes. I just updated my website with additional information on its construction. www.remmepark.com/circuit6040/Link_coupled_transmatch/Link_coupled_transmatch.html

[@dans4786]

Amazing loop. I’m very new too all of this and I’m preparing to build a 144’ (40m) horizontal loop above the roof of my Brooklyn brownstone right now (about 65’ above ground). Roof is rubber and foam, internal structure is wood. I notice that you don’t use a balun. Does the balanced tuner replace it? I’m planning to use 450ohm window line connected to less than 10 feet of coax to an auto tuner -do you think I should be using a balun and if so, what ratio? Thanks so much for this great vid and any help.

[@Circuit6040]

Hello Dan S, Thank you for the complement! - Yes, in my case the balanced tuner acts as the balun / impedance match to the 50 ohm coax of the rig, I measure the SWR between the rig and the balanced tuner (50 ohm side) and adjust the taps and capacitor (across the ladder line right after the tuner) until I get exactly 1:1 for 80, 40 and 20 meters. I'm afraid I can't be much help in the ratio you will need for your balun, but as always, a search on the internet and perhaps antenna books may be of some help. I did a quick search and found that a 40 meter loop would have an impedance of 80 ohms at resonance, so perhaps a 1:1 or 1:2 would put it within range of your tuner. Since this is my first ever HF antenna, and have used ladder line from the start, I don't have any practical experience feeding the loop with coax and a balun. I wish you good fortune with your loop, I love mine but keep in mind that (from the way I understand it) the radiation pattern might be mostly straight up. I get good reports 500-600 miles out with my 50 watts on 40 meters using my 80 meter loop. 73 DE Rick N3FJZ

[@clems6989]

Is it running along against the chicken wire thats holding the insulation up ?

[@Circuit6040]

Good catch Control Man! - Yes it is - Thank you! The ladder line hangs down below the chicken wire from 0 to 12 inches over a 12 foot run, but I will lower the close end more (the next time I need to do work in the craw space) to reduce any possible interaction. So far I haven't experienced any major issues using the antenna system (that I'm aware of) and I'm always able to always tune a 1:1 SWR on 80m, 40m and 20m with my balanced link coupled 50 ohm to 600 ohm matching unit with 80 meter full wave loop at 50 watts. 73 N3FJZ

[@patrickbouldinkm5l143]

Great job on that.

[@Circuit6040]

Thank you

[@richardp5161]

My ladder line is loving the wind this morning, had to chase it to the neighbors TV antenna. Definitely not an aero dynamic feedline.

[@Circuit6040]

That's for sure, sometimes it seems to have a mind of its own. 73 Rick N3FJZ

[@richardp5161]

@@Circuit6040 So, recently I've taken some "google" advice and twisted the line about 1 twist per 3 feet. That seems to help a little. Then I have tethered the end of the line with stretch cord to a wooden stake in the ground. Not the best arrangement but we get winds off of the water here that just never seem to quit and hopefully I won't need to re-solder the ends back to the 1:1 unlun again... 73 wb3gbl op hr rick (also)

[@AndyDaviesByTheSea]

Hi Richard thanks for sharing the video. Can you help? I'm thinking of trying a loop for 80 metres as I do like 80 but there's so much QRM it can be hard to work sometimes. I know form having built a 20 metres loop it did cut the QRM. The last storm, (storm Francis,) bent my 33 foot mast of my 80 metres inverted 'V' through 90 degrees! I underestimated the downward forces and before I reinstate the invited 'V' I'm considering other options. I live on top of a hill in a coastal location, fabulous views but man we pay for it by way of the wind. Because of the shape of the hill we can easily get 80 mph winds rattling around. I'm seriously thinking about a low level loop maybe just 3 metres off the ground. I understand that a loop like this is good for local contacts (1,000 miles or so) and that would be ok but I don't know if that's just too low to be any good. Do you have any experience with very low level loops like this? 73 . . . Andy gw0jxm

[@Circuit6040]

Andy, My 80 meter loop is about 3 meters above ground at its lowest point, and maybe 8 meters at the highest and I routine work stations 400 to 700 miles away with 50 watts on 40 meters with the link coupled balanced antenna match (with 600 ohm ladder line between loop and coupler). I have not done much testing on 80 meters for distance, but have made a few local contacts and got good reports. 73 Rick N3FJZ.

[@AndyDaviesByTheSea]

@@Circuit6040 Thanks for the information Rick. I've thrown up an 80m loop simply by laying over some gores bushes and a few low thorn trees. It's about Three metres at the highest and one and a half metres at the lowest. For a good swr I had to shorten it quite a lot, I started off with a loop of 279 feet but this had to be cut down to 235 feet. it's more or less square. it's fed with coax and an air cored balun to give an impedance ratio of ~4.9:1 and that gives me an SWR of 1.16 It's great foe reception and I get 4 and 8 to 5 and 9 reports but I've only been on the air in the afternoon when the band is rubbish. certainly getting out a few hundred miles. I'm encouraged enough to buy some 6 metres aluminum scaffold poles and play with a low level loop at a higher level. Hopefully the 3.8 mm thick walled scaffold poles won't bend like the blessed thin wall tube. Thanks for the feedback. All the best . . . Andy gw0jxm

[@peterock8217]

@@AndyDaviesByTheSea I love to here others using and building their own wire antennas, especially loops. Sounds like you've built some winners there. You can try a loop or delta loop in the vertical position, if you feed it from the side its vertical, and from the top and or bottom its horizontally polarized!!! I want to try one!!! Peter N3WUB

[@JayN4GO]

@@peterock8217 I’ve never tried running open wire like this to a tuner even though it says balanced line. I have built a few delta loops with a 75ohm stub. It looks like you have the tree height to get two ends high and feed at the bottom. Great antennas. Built for 40m but you’ll notice it’s 1.7 on 20 as well.

[@АндрейИвшин-ф4г]

Неплохая антенна, наверное ещё и широкополосаня. Единственно низко к земле, но всё равно хорошо.

[@StreakyP]

if you have a full size loop (100 to 150 ohm resistance) then rather than ladder line you can also consider sat tv "Shorgun twin" 75 ohm co-ax & just feed balanced between the centres,,, as it is screened its routing is "idiot proof" like normal co-ax & it doesn't have to be kept clear of metal... at 2x75ohm = 150 ohm it is pretty well matched to the loop too

[@Circuit6040]

StreakyP, great idea! I have an old run of abandon C/Ku band dual 75 ohm coax going from the house to where the old 10 foot TVRO dish was one located. This would be a great experiment to try in the future. Thanks for the suggestion 73 Rick N3FJZ

[@arthurgumbus3969]

What did you utilize for the ladder line spacers? Also, what was the formula you used to ascertain the ohm rating for the nice 600 ohm ladder line, for instance the wire diameter and spacing between wires? Very well done video. Is your working environment always alligator clip oriented or will you evolve the gear to more traditional cases, etc? What are the SWR's you are encountering by band? Just built a 80M Skyloop, square, 45-50 feet high... 280 feet of wire initially. LMR400 fed... very good antenna... great for DX on 20M and higher... quiet... some lobes and nulls but appears to be omni-directional at 75 and 40 and as the frequency goes up the lobes and nulls develop. Only up a week but that is the feedback so far. Using Palstar HF-Auto for the trans match if needed. 73 Art W1SWL

[@Circuit6040]

Hello Art, for the spacers I used electric fence insulator tubing. This tubing's outer diameter is 0.35 inches (9mm) with a wall thickness of 0.075 inches (2mm) and sold in a 50 foot roll. It's original indented use is to insulate electric fence wire when you need to run it in the ground such as under a driveway or gate. I bought mine st the local TSC tractor supply store in a 50 foot coil. Just search "electric fence insulator tubing" on the web and you should see some other suppliers. I cut this tubing into individual spreaders which would provide the required wire spacing distance plus a bit more to allow a hole at each end to thread the feeder wire through. The formula I used is: Z = 276 log (2S/d) where: Z is the line impedance, S = center to center dist of conductors (in.), d = diameter of conductors (in.) A calculator (by Serge Y. Stroobandt, ON4AA) can be found here: (hamwaves.com/zc.circular/en/index.html). Some day I hope to build the coupler into an enclosure but for now it just uses alligator clips. I have found the taps I use for the various bands are usually in the same place unless I alter the feed line length or the loop length, so even if I eventually use a switch, I will probably still provide a semi permanent way to change where each tap lands on the coil if I need to change it later. With the 80 meter loop and open wire feeder I can usually achieve an exact 1:1 (zero reflected power at the rig at 50 watts out) match by tuning the capacitor and moving the taps on 80, 40 and 20 meters . The loop is too short for 160 meters even though I can receive 160 meters very well. I only use coax between the rig and the primary winding of the coil (about 24 inches) and use open wire from there to the loop (about 60 feet). Fine business on your loop, I love mine. 73 - Rick N3FJZ.

[@RajeshA]

Amazing.. super.👍

[@Circuit6040]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@agustiana1247]

Ok...mr

[@MrJaz8088]

That's a Ladder for Midgets or a Attraction at the Fair, That's some descent Ladder Line Wow

[@Circuit6040]

Thank you Jaz808. Funny story - I had a non-ham visitor here recently and they asked me if it was a ladder for squirrels! 73 - Rick N3FJZ

[@new2radioz]

So, maybe a video on how you made that nice ladder line feeder? Vy FB👍🏽

[@peterock8217]

Nice set up, looks a little long for just 80 meters, looks more like an 160 meter loop.

[@Circuit6040]

Hi Peter, thank you! No sadly, it's only 80 meters. Might be the camera lens that makes it look longer. I have designed the pathway and layout for a 160 meter loop, but it will require me to add three additional masts, which I've not built yet, and even if I do, I'll only have it up about 20 feet, which will make it a cloud warmer :-)

[@peterock8217]

@@Circuit6040 I made a delta loop last summer, did all the tree line connections and insulators in March, no leaves, about 30 to 40 feet up using a broken fishing rod and reel with a sling shot, surprisingly it worked, with a lot of effort!!! Made my own ladder line like you did, spaced out about 2.5 inches, giving me approx 460 ohms imp, first time using it with a unun transformer, SWR was all over the place 100 plus ohms, then I remembered that it was a 4:1 transformer , made for coax at the top of the wire connection, oops! Made another one 9:1 for ladder line hooked up on the bottom,, against the wall just behind the shack, WOW!!!! 1:1 All across the frequencies, even on 160 meters its almost a 2 , 2.5 SWR, loop is measured for 80 meters, around 262 ft, first microphone key up was to an Italy station on 20 meters around 6pm, no trouble at all, instant contact!!! I used to have a Titan dx, 36 ft tall vertical, poor performer, could never make a contact without at least 4 or 5 shout outs, ice storm took it out, luckily!!! Lol lasted like 20 years, I will never buy another antenna again, delta loop was so low cost at that. I want to make a full wave next, I have more wire now, and plenty of trees!!! Nice to see someone else doing the same!!! Maybe I'll catch you on the air, 73's Peter, N3WUB, Bushkill PA

[@peterock8217]

@@Circuit6040 instagram.com/p/CBFKgrcghoG/?igshid=1u5kknyu6xzle

[@peterock8217]

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[@richarde735]

gotta be south jersey or southeastern pennsylvania, nobody else says wudder

[@muhammadrafique3903]

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[@robertoler3795]

fine business WB5MZO