A Narrative Analysis of The Spider-Man Musical

[@MrSchmiphf]

GET ME THE SHOES

[@laserdude3643]

The amazing Spiderman case of the semester speller Intro slaps

[@Commissioner03]

You get your shoes when you fix this damn door!

[@qwellen7521]

Its shoe time.

[@arempy5836]

Give me the Timbs.

[@LeatherScorpio]

Oh my god SHOES

[@ManCarryingThing]

"the first public preview night was the first time they ran the show from beginning to end." yes, you are right, i am panicking

[@mondayadams8166]

@Lind Morn I meeeeeaaaaaan.

[@JeonardShadby505]

It reminds me of that line from THE FACULTY: "Sir, is this gonna be on the test?" "This IS the test."

[@Issalzul]

The color left my face, my boss was concerned

[@matthewhearn9910]

I definitely said "Oh no" out loud and then scrolled to look for this comment.

[@LaZodiac]

@Lind Morn See you say this but it was recently revealed during an interview that the actual theatre release of Emperor's New Groove was the only actual script for the film, they had to submit their finalized script about two weeks after it'd been in theatres, thrown together by watching the film and cataloguing it down. So sometimes, turbo last minute nonsense can work!

[@A11sopp]

Honestly it's hilarious that they had a show that was too horny and weird and to help fix it they hired the creator of Riverdale.

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

“It’s like poetry.” - George Lucas

[@SongbirdAlom]

“Meanwhile in the astral plane, Arachne is reading the Daily Bugle.”

[@universalperson]

ngl, that is something out of old-school comics.

[@OhNoBohNo]

as you do

[@SuperHothead14]

That paper boy must have gotten a hell of a tip

[@Dinosaurianationazation]

And then Lolth shows up. Lol

[@illford]

​@@universalpersonwhilst that may be true, it does not change how goofy it is

[@ethanisfancy]

"They remind me of my relationship with my husband the Green Goblin" was just a perfect line

[@JacklynBurn]

I had to sit there for a couple seconds before it sank in, especially with all the other buckwild shit from the previous 20 minutes

[@dashboots376]

I died when she said that, I can't even.

[@merrittanimation7721]

Emily and her LGBT activist husband Green Goblin

[@benjulc9271]

Can someone explian the context behind that line?

[@dashboots376]

@@benjulc9271 The Green Goblin in the play Turn off the Dark has a wife who dies called Emily, you know like her, that's why she was joking about being the Goblin's wife.

[@alexhijinks5170]

43:08 "why did he need the bathroom in the middle of the second act?" THE PLAY IS FOUR HOURS LONG! THIS CHILD HAS BEEN THERE FOR THREE HOURS THINKING HE CAN HOLD IT AND NOW THE SPIDER LADY IS TALKING ABOUT SHOES! (Also damn CJ the X you are a great voice actor)

[@Megafighter3]

Honestly, 1.0 feels like two musicals fighting for the stage. In fact, Taymor could've saved herself a lot of time, money and trouble if she had been more willing to play ball, make a standard Spider-Man musical designed to draw in the crowds, then keep the Arachne stuff in her back pocket as her next project. Like, the idea of a musical about Arachne granting powers to some bright-eyed ingenue boy in order to finally free herself of the curse Athena placed upon her could've worked. Make the male lead a writer or painter or some form of creative who she gifts some sort of incredible artistic power to, but he falls for a girl in his class instead of Arachne. Call it "The Weaver" and you got something there.

[@tukamousa9025]

Hadestown? Is that you?

[@pepperypeppers2755]

It would have drawn some odd comparisons. Maybe truly taking it as a point of inspiration instead of pushing them together would have worked better

[@ride-playerbb2818]

"Two musicals fighting for the stage" I'd watch that

[@Megafighter3]

@@ride-playerbb2818 A musical about two completely different musicals fighting over gets to go on that night? Yeah, that sounds like fun.

[@vitoc8454]

Have heard that one of Christopher Nolan's reasons for making his Batman movies was so he would receive support for his literal dream project, Inception. Yeah, the guy allegedly made some of the most acclaimed comic book movies ever *as a stepping stone to something else.*

[@jacksonhodge4504]

I remember my (forcefully closeted) high school drama teacher went to see this and came back raving about it, explaining to us that there were villainous spider-ladies with boots on all their feet, and imitating a kicky dance they did while singing, "We're steppin' out on the town!" His obsession with this was contagious and for years afterwards in the wings, if we had free time, the run crew etc. would "step out on the town" in sync to make each other laugh across the stage. Anyway, this video ruled, most of all because I finally got to see the line of spider ladies doing the stompy dance. His impression was so accurate.

[@XelaBH]

Saw 1.0 with my parents THE WEEK after the major incident and it was truly one of the wildest nights I've had in the theatre: So many people there just hoping nothing would happen, while simultaneously watching the absolute weirdest storyline put onto a Broadway show. They straight up just didn't do the major stunt that caused the accident, going on the God Mic and announcing what we should be seeing like stage directions. It was truly a fever dream.

[@yannickgrignon2473]

Wait, they just did a voiceover of what you would see if it hadn't been for a tragedy? Not even an attempt to rewrite or replace it? That's hilarious

[@weeping_me362]

If it was only a week afterwards then that makes a whole lot of sense. A week isn't long enough to write and rehearse a change like that

[@heathercalun4919]

Even if we accept V 1.0 for what it is, "Artists will never be understood by the common people who just can't comprehend their genius" is a BAD moral.

[@rotomfan63]

Yeah, I wonder why the team kicked her out. It totally isn't cause there are consequences for that attitude or anything /s

[@pantslesswrock]

...on the other hand, the "common people" in this case are suits with the power to bestow millions and millions of dollars to artistic projects. And these people are so creatively uneducated and detached from humanity that they were given the pitch, given the treatment, and given the book, given multiple chances to realize that her vision would not align with their frankly unreasonable return expectations... and they couldn't see it. She was known as popular for some teen girls and she pitched a Spiderman musical that was philosophically and erotically charged, all but impossible to tour or license out, and would be a personally-grounded story about artistic betrayal. It is not her fault people who wanted a years-of-filled-seats crowd pleaser that could appeal to the perceived superhero demo of young boys decided to give her and her plan 75 million dollars. She did her job - it's the money people who failed.

[@darkmaster4868]

Finally someone fucking said it

[@twindrill2852]

Mhm. Plus the whole narrative of Arachne being obsessively in love with Peter (including the amount of suggestive humor and theming in the beginning of the musical) just makes it feel way more gross than it should be.

[@leiagelwasser2168]

Like that was a whole thing in the first Spider-Man movie right? Green goblin goes up to him and says hey, we're not like normal people, we're special. You should disregard the normies and become a super elite like me!

[@Malkmusianful]

"ah yes, the one thing Spider-Man movies always ignore: Greek mythological protagonist Arachne's incapacitating shoe fetish." - Julie Taymor, 2009

[@deanscordilis7280]

Sam Raimi would’ve put it in Spider-Man 4 I just know it

[@rubywest5166]

I read this comment before watching the video, and I truly didn't appreciate which meaning of the word "fetish" you meant. The "Get me the shoes" scene looks... 110% like something from a fetish art account.

[@clouddd8053]

ofc 🤨

[@DasNordlicht91]

with great power comes great shoes

[@thelivingshtpost]

"I have an incurable condition where I can only see the world through Batman comparisons" is now my new favorite sentence and perfectly describes me

[@garrettcarter5622]

It's weird how G.G. is being used in the script as Julie Taymor's self-insert in order to pat herself on the back for all the daring narrative choices she's making. Except, reading the script, G.G. comes off as condescending toward all her friends and spends most of her time being a wet blanket. Not to mention kind of sexist with that "Boys don't know how to sew" line.

[@WobblesandBean]

The existence of GG is se×ist af in the first place. She's a token, makes being a geek her entire personality, tries way too hard to prove her "geek cred", and is just all around cringey. Plus she's got major Pick Me energy.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Tbf Peter making his suit from scratch was always weird anyway lol

[@vitoc8454]

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 There's a joke theory that since spiders weave webs, weaving would be one of Peter's new powers

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@vitoc8454 If he made his outfit out of his web fluid maybe, which yeah I can see

[@utubrGaming]

​@@ChangedMyNameFinally69Cindy Moon, aka Silk, did just that, and Peter lamented that he could've saved so much money with that.

[@kaelmic7476]

emily, you can't just drop bombshells like "she sings the homestuck amv song if the world should end" and expect me to survive

[@WesternActor]

I was a theatre critic who reviewed the show in its original Broadway run, and saw both the 1.0 and 2.0 versions live. I appreciate your in-depth exploration and analysis of it, and I come down largely where you did. But with respect to certain aspects of 1.0, the sets, the costumes, the Sinister Six/Seven, and so on, the main thing I can say is going to come across as, at best, cold comfort. You had to be there. The complicated/annoying thing about theatre is that even the best bootleg is never really going to capture whatever happened at that particular performance. In the complete context of the live show, things clicked as a creative vision (if not a narrative, for a lot of reasons you articulated). The costumes and especially the sets--which, live at least, did not look remotely cheap in any way--clicked, and were of a single piece. There was one stage effect I will never forget, in fact, and it's not one I ever hear anyone talk about: A while into act one, the stage blacked out entirely--and I mean that literally, as the entire theatre was plunged into total darkness--and was relieved a few endless seconds later with a tiny pin-prick of light that very slowly unwove and expanded into Arachne's lair, with the set appearing just out of nowhere. Beyond being the platonic ideal of a set change from a technical standpoint, it thrust you into not just the location of the next scene, but its psychology and prepared you for an investigation of the impossibilities that version of the book demanded you accept or at least consider. There were other astonishing visuals in 1.0--the video you used showed but didn't really capture the breath-stealing moment where Arachne leapt all the way from the top balcony down to the stage before "Think Again"--but Arachne's lair unfolding from definitional nothingness is etched into my brain and etched into theatre history. And... it didn't exist in 2.0. Oh, the moment was still there, but it didn't work. The sets had been moved, the lights had been adjusted, and other things had been tweaked so that now you were just seeing a lighting effect on a blank wall of set. It was, really, the perfect metaphor for the difference between the versions. No, 1.0 didn't work. But it had a vision behind it. Ideas. A point. Whether you liked what Taymor was trying to say, she was trying to say something: about the complexities of our relationship with myth and what responsibility the powerful really have. And, again, for better or worse, everything played into it. All of the concepts and plot points toyed with uncertainty and illusion, reality and falsity, the sense that the tangible world is something we have to create because the universe (and/or the gods) are not going to do it for us. You adroitly pointed out that this is why the original setting of "If the World Should End" was so powerful while the second one was absolutely nothing, but the same was true of everything, from the fantasy weavings of "Deeply Furious" to the imagination-evoked Sinister Six to the fairy-tale hero-kills-his-maker ending. Good or bad (and there was a lot of bad), it was of a single, seamless piece. Version 2.0 had none of that. All it had was a comic book superhero origin story. Which... okay. Maybe that's better for kids, maybe it was more likely to run longer. But it wasn't real theatre. It wasn't real art. And those are the things that Taymor delivered. Imperfectly, in defiance of audience expectations, and against the better wisdom of... well, anyone you were likely to ask, but you still got them. Taymor comes from the school of theatre artist who believes we have to demand more not just from our entertainment but from ourselves, and when she tackled Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark, that's what she insisted on. And good for her. The failure of the show, the loss of all that money, the multiple people who got physically hurt and had their careers sidelined as a result of the various technical mishaps are all lamentable and shameful, and no version of the show is worth those things. But I would personally take a genius artist's singular vision over a heartless, soulless piece of committee thinking any day of the week. The latter may--at best--entertain you for a couple of hours. But the former will make you think and feel, and if it doesn't transform you outright, it will at least insist you consider the impact of that transformation on you. And, above all else, it will matter. Theatre that matters is the kind of theatre I care about. And that's why, despite all it got wrong, I care deeply about now--as I have for more than a decade--about version 1.0 of Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark.

[@RadioactivePuppy01]

This is good content. And good intention.

[@quebaixo]

Thank you so much for your perspective!

[@Elonyx.studios]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 Beautifully said!

[@skeletonwizard708]

This is a lovely piece, thank you for sharing it.

[@Kingshadowac]

I am going to be honest stuff like this is why I dislike critics. Just a bunch of pretentious fluff.

[@BoysenBarry]

Obsessed with the deep lore callback to Sarah Z's Legally Blonde the Musical golf cart story, great video as always

[@aleciabrimer6200]

I thought it was a reference to Jenny's Dear Evan Hanson video where she talks about the director of a school stage play blowing the budget on a golf cart

[@manyagaver1946]

@@aleciabrimer6200 I thought that was Sarah zed but now I’m not sure

[@aleciabrimer6200]

@@manyagaver1946 It probably was an I'm mixing them up lol. That makes way more sense since Emily edits and cowrites with Sarah

[@BoysenBarry]

@@aleciabrimer6200 I think Jenny Nicholson also references the story but i double checked and yeah, its from Sarah Z's Mean Girls video @ ~7 minutes in

[@aleciabrimer6200]

@@BoysenBarry I need to get my golf cart lore straight lol

[@juliamavroidi8601]

Me: Huh, the plot doesn't sound that bad... Emily: And that ends Act 1 Me: 😬

[@CrimesTimeLive]

For the longest time, the only things I knew about this show were vague memories of Lindsay Ellis and Todd in the Shadows vlogging about it, chorusing "MY BAAAAAAABBY!" in perfect sync with a power that has stayed with me for like 11 years. And now I know a whole lot more and it's absolutely fascinating. It's really a shame because the Arachne plot is genuinely interesting... it just super doesn't belong in a Spiderman musical. The fact that GET ME THE SHOES exists is. Truly something. Anyway, godspeed, I hope you get that blanket.

[@KitsuneMiyazaki]

Oh thank God, I'm not the only one. That's one of those videos that will just play at random in my head. Specifically the "MAH BAYBEE" part.

[@Cheskaz]

MAH BAAABY

[@catsnjammer]

Finally hearing the original “MAH BEHHHHBEHHHHHH” after more than a decade of Lindsay, Todd and Allison’s voices going round my head has given me the sweet, sweet closure I didn’t know I needed

[@Greycatuk]

I wish this video still existed, because it was just so fun!

[@Blacknight8850]

The first Spiderman comic I ever read was the one where Peter Parker mutates into a giant spider, then dies giving birth to his fully-formed human form as if nothing happened, just so he can have organic webshooters like in the movies. That description of the musical STILL sounds weirder, not gonna lie.

[@0uttaS1TE]

I'm sorry, what the fuck? Couldn't he just mutate organic shooters

[@IzzuddinRafli]

@@0uttaS1TE nah man, he had to be kissed by some spider chick and then turned into Man-Spider for it to work

[@runelessruneless9024]

Man, I remember when War of the Clones was the weirdest thing to ever happen to a Spiderman...

[@OrobaSpyro]

what

[@Blacknight8850]

@@IzzuddinRafli A spider queen who could disable her opponents and shatter glass with a deafening "SQUEEEE!" sound, to boot.

[@cynicismIncarnate]

Things that I learned from this video: - Emily is actually Norman Osbornes wife. Congrats? on the wedding. - Green Goblin piano - The Green Goblin piano looks like a Dr. Seuss drawing - Spider-Man was actually about Arachne's sex drive. - There's Daily Bugle is in another realm of existence - Shoes - This point isn't something I learned from this video, but everything comes back to Phantom of the Opera - Alexander Hamilton lives in Hollow Bastion - "Norman Osborn, flirting with the disguised Arachne, 'Strokes Arachne's shoe'" - Roberto wrote something again (why must we be cursed) - LGBT king Green Goblin :) #GetEmilyTheBlanket

[@garrettcarter5622]

"Emily is actually Norman Osbornes wife. Congrats? on the wedding." I sure hope not because most adaptations of Norman's wives end up in abusive relationships or dead.

[@liaminator4950]

The g in lgbt stands for goblin

[@Lucifersfursona]

Open-source queer stand, the Green Goblin,

[@Tetjaku]

That's not Hollow Bastion, it's actually Roxas' room in Twilight Town

[@ItsTheFizz]

1.0 strikes me Julie Tamour viewing the Spider-Man license as nothing more than a means to an end to her true passion, presenting her reinterpretation of the Arachne myth...

[@cmmosher8035]

It sorta reminds me of the j micheal strazinski run where its revealed that Peter represents a spider totem. I am foggy on the specifics of the run.

[@kennybrightwell1877]

@@cmmosher8035 according JMS, Peter is a descendent from a long lost tribe of Wakanda that worshipped Anansi…. Which, no.

[@cmmosher8035]

@@kennybrightwell1877 i have admit i bugged out when the totem thing started... I did not get that far to see that.

[@rattyeely]

I actually like that. I think some of the best comic book adaptations arise from someone bringing their unique vision to a classic character (the Joker movie, Into the Spider-verse, ECT). Shame this particular story just didn't work.

[@TwighlightLugia]

It's... soooo, sooo, self-insert fanficky. Which is fine and dandy, if you're writing a self-insert fanfic, and not blowing millions of other people's dollars and risking people's safety for a live audience of mostly-kids. It would be like if a new Batman musical spent 3/4ths of the runtime showcasing Vlad the Impaler waxing poetically about trying to make a spectacle for his enemies, with Vlad being played by the writer. Like... it's a vanity project and a half.

[@holdenringle3615]

"In all the Greek mythology and intense sexual desire of 1.0, the appeal of Spider-Man had been lost"

[@michimatsch5862]

I mean, Spiderlady coming to tie you up and suck you out has some appeal but the Venn diagram of that and spider man is probably non-existant.

[@LaZodiac]

@@michimatsch5862 There IS an overlap, and it is exclusively bi men with a sub bondage fetish.

[@radiokunio3738]

@@michimatsch5862 i mean i could see black cat being a dom.

[@bluespaceman7937]

That is certainly true.

[@Tommedian]

I was the 420th like for this comment

[@samanthaw.861]

I’m not a theater kid but the idea of doing ANYTHING for the first time in front of a crowd caused my heart rate to spike

[@ComicDrake]

I don't have an hour to spare right now, but as a huge fan of your content and the BONKERS history of Turn Off the Dark, I'm absolutely giving this a like and a save on Watch Later.

[@Fishyfishdish_]

Hi I like your channel

[@funnycatenjoyer2758]

oh yeah right the watch later tab exists

[@ash_sunday]

what is this, a crossover episode?

[@Platitudinous9000]

did you watch it yet

[@millipede8602]

This is gonna sound weird but this is why I unironically love the spongebob musical, reading about its production and listening to the songs and performance makes it feel like the reverse of spiderman turn off the dark because it knew its limits and what it wanted to be. It also on paper sounds silly to adapt the series into a theater musical, but the directors clearly respected the source material and knew exactly how to adapt it. Basically what I'm saying is the spongebob squarepants musical is underrated and you should all watch it right now

[@NoahDaArk]

It also kinda makes the failure of Turn Off The Dark sting that much more because it basically proved that with the right cast, crew and vision, a goofy idea like a SpongeBob musical can be transformed into a genuinely good show that people will remember for years to come

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

SpongeBob had songs in it though, a musical isn't that hard a sell

[@vitoc8454]

It was clever of them to approximate Mr. Krabs' big meaty claws with red boxing gloves

[@ZergrushEddie]

I can almost see what they were going for in 1.0, even if it is weird. "Modern superheroes are the Greek gods/myths of old" is a neat place to start a Broadway Spiderman and with the abstract sets, it'd be neat if they went hard on the old techniques. Do a literal deus ex machina, lowering the statue of the goddess to solve some problem, have the plot resemble Hercules or Odysseus. The problem is that, well, we know Peter Parker; we know he is not some fated hero or great vessel for the gods. Since the point of Spiderman, more than any other hero, is that ANYONE could be Spiderman... just make a new Spiderman. Also, just don't be a musical. The high wire acts are incredible enough; just do a Cirque du Soleil with comic book characters. Yeah, Vegas show with high wire flying over the crowd where multiple performers could play Spiderman allowing for multiple shows a night? That sounds exactly like the kind of spectacle that would attract some casino goers. Can't see Penn and Teller? See Spiderman fight the Green Goblin just 10 feet above your head!

[@jadenbryant9283]

or use an anolog for Spider-Man in the vain of supreme or invincible

[@merrittanimation7721]

I'm imagining something like the ending of Spider-Man 2 where instead of Doc Oct flying into his mini sun, Arachne comes down and gives a long speech about how everything is going okay so long as they follow her exact directions and then the musical just ends. Greek tragedy deus ex machinas are very odd

[@nejdalej]

That would have been pretty cool

[@BenArz1313]

Now that I think about it, they probably could have retooled Arachne into Madame Web. It might have been a stretch, but at least it might have pleased the comic fans. Also, I do feel a bit for Taymor after watching this. She clearly had a vision, but that vision barely resembled Spiderman.

[@rhymebeat1142]

Is Madame Spider the same character as Madame Web? I remembered her from the Spiderman Animated Series.

[@BenArz1313]

@@rhymebeat1142 Oh yeah, you're right that actually is her name. I had a brain fart and misremembered it.

[@makeitthrough_]

And now Sony's making a spinoff starring what's her face from 50 Shades as Madame Web, and all I can picture are some of the fetishy scenes in Turn Off The Dark 1.0 popping up there

[@HobGungan]

Before I watched this video, I always thought Arachne WAS Madame Web from what little I had heard of the plot.

[@Hawkatana]

This comment has become so much funnier in hindsight.

[@TheCalComics]

This video has everything; Emily discussing her husband Norman Osborn, the "Is this actually good?" reversal, and CJ the X bringing life to some buck-wild Bono quotes. Excellent piece of art.

[@traewilson5127]

Just a small note about the best piece of music ever written, A Freak Like Me Needs Company. In the lyrics, it mentions how he left his "straight life" because he "loves a freak." Number one: anybody who argues this isn't a gay pride anthem with lyrics like that are NUTS / have zero media literacy. But more importantly: it proves to me that this song was written for the original Arachne run. Like, Arachne is clearly the freak in question he loves, right? Makes me imagine a version of 1.0 that was just given another draft, where the narrative is driven by Arachne, and Spider-Man and Goblin's relationship with her. Where Goblin is obsessed with earning her hand and taking on her curse - but Arachne just isn't into him, and wouldn't want to share her curse with someone like him for eternity. She wants the hero she's chosen, but Peter doesn't want her. Goblin's whole thing in Act 2 where he and the Sinister Six (the ultimate bros) plunge the city into chaos could've been real, and his last ditch effort to earn Arachne's favor - his willingness to sacrifice millions of people just to earn her affection. *Freaks like us need company, you know.* But it's all in vain; she made up her mind. It MUST be Peter. Goblin's attempt to partner up with Peter in Act 1 could also have another layer of meaning where he's covertly trying to get him to back off Arachne so he can win her heart - not knowing that Pete isn't aware at all of Arachne's designs. Also could have a played down version of Freak Like Me as the number, to drive home Goblin's innermost driving force is companionship (be it from a lover or a "friend") and acceptance from someone - ANYONE - of what he has become. Immortality is just a neat fringe benefit to him. I'll take a highly flawed but sincere artists' vision over a functional but limp and soulless corporate product any day. The problem with 1.0 was the story desperately needed more work done, not that the vision itself was a mistake worth completely abandoning.

[@MJTRadio]

I’m only like a minute into the video, but I have to put out- Emily repping her love for superheroes with a panel of Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain is the now the most gleeful I think I’ve felt on this channel.

[@WildSableye]

can't believe stephanie brown and cassandra cain invented superheroes literally iconic✨

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

I loved it so much - Stephanie brown is fave ~

[@sammcguire3798]

DC won't let Steph and Cass get good representation and be happy because they'd just be too powerful if they did🥱

[@MJTRadio]

@@sammcguire3798 It's nice that they are co-headlining a comic right now. But seeing them get left out of Gotham Knights is just criminal.

[@repulser93]

@@MJTRadio Honestly, its criminal that the defaulted to Babs as Batgirl and left out Cass and Steph in Arkham Knight - that game would've been the perfect chance to introduce the duo to wider audiences. Have the David Cain and Cass stuff be its own subquest, and make Spoiler into Riddler's daughter.

[@katiwithoutthee]

re: your mom’s final gift to you being that CD…both my parents are dead and i just laughed so loudly my neighbor banged on my wall

[@LaZodiac]

You know, I've always wondered what the deal was with this. I love that the "turn off the dark" subtitle is actually meant to be... literal. He has to stop the black out, he needs to turn off the dark. I actually really liked your "tunnel vision" segment because I do feel like, if they've executed it properly, this COULD have worked. You've proven that there was a path, that there was Something they intended here, it just... didn't work out. I think it's okay to do deep drive discussions as to what a thing tried to do and how it could have been good and still avoid the "wait no it's actually good!". Also, hilariously... the "No Way Home" Spider-man movie has a scene of Peter reading a news article saying he used "his spider-lure" on MJ, and them riffing on it. I think you had a cut scene from this video about it, but I wanted to bring it up here for people who don't follow you (and they should follow you!) that that is a thing that happened. I had no idea it was a reference to this!

[@DoubleATam]

the tunnel vision segment was literally me with sonic 06 sometimes a piece of media just sends you on a journey trying to understand it, and then it clicks, and then you take a step back and say "but wait, this is still not what most people wanted out of this, and it was kinda weird to make it into a flagship thing for the franchise"

[@Johnny2Cellos]

Incredibly thorough breakdown, great work

[@samuelsolomon7330]

Really loving the new sprite for your character. Oozes character and is just appealing to look at.

[@crazykirsch]

Your note about tunnel vision is more relevant than ever. Go to the comments on ANY media video essay and you'll find an abundance of discussion on character motivations or THEMES but presented as intentional; 4D chess; masterful writing when in reality they're nearly always unsubstantiated(or even officially refuted) fan theories. They're also highly prone to going viral. Don't get me wrong, I love discussing media and am addicted to video essays but circle-jerking fandoms are hostile to all criticism and detrimental to any discourse that falls outside said jerk.

[@jrg2866]

I've seen a lot of fan theories that a character is ADHD or neurodivergent in some way, and the evidence is them just. Doing anything. Or being interested in anything.

[@ethanlivemere1162]

People love to give the MCU too much credit when it comes to deep character psyches and layered parallels

[@thegodofalldragons]

Yes, I've noticed this phenomenon, too. I refer to it as fans writing a better version of the story in their head and crediting the original author for that version. It's frustrating, because when an author's INTENT is all it takes to make a "masterpiece," the actual craft of storytelling no longer matters and we end up elevating pretentious, mediocre-to-bad stories as the ideal. Because you don't need any skill or talent to shoot for the stars. All you need is a massive ego. Actually using the tools of storytelling to make it all work is where any praiseworthy effort is.

[@DrMadd]

I see this kind of stuff a lot with foreign language stuff where fans will blame professional translators for making a piece of media seem bad by losing some of the meaning of the original language due to incompetence and then make their own amateur (usually very liberal) translations where they try and express what the writer was “trying” to say.

[@noizepusher7594]

I like to call this the “Big Joel Effect” because it’s something the KZbinr Big Joel tends to do all the time; it’s almost synonymous with his brand

[@phirah79]

I was so thrilled to see the covert reference to Twisted: "How will they tell my story? How will they tell my tale? Will any body even care?"! I should have known that Emily was a StarKid loving kindred spirit.

[@benjisaac]

I had to pause to process that there was a twisted reference outside of my usual sphere, great moment

[@mellifroze7532]

yeah as soon as i heard that i immediately scrolled down to see if anyone commented about it haha

[@largeposterior08]

I knew I couldn’t be the first one to have caught it, lol

[@junegeeitisahardgfulmer7911]

Brilliant!

[@SerenaWhatever]

I feel like Emily would be pleased to know that Monster High made a character who is both the daughter of Arachne and has a storyline in which she is a superhero with very Spider Man-ey powers and her name is a pun of Winona Rider

[@V00doo1Xim]

who is Winona Ryder?

[@etexpatriate]

Traynor's approach to TOtD is a case of a creator with a lot of self-regard, rather than using their vision and art to complement an established character, instead feeling that their vision deserves to usurp the classic depiction, and thus ending up in dissonance. In a better world, Traynor would have realized she didn't really want to tell a story about Spider-Man, passed the project off to someone else, and gone on to make Arachne: the Musical.

[@nate567987]

this is her spider-man arachne is a tragedy, but spider man changes it by refusing being changed or changing others

[@Talisguy]

I can kind of understand why she didn't. One, Arachne: The Musical sounds like a hard sell on its own, even for someone with Taymor's reputation, but Spider-Man: The Musical is part of a very successful IP, so she might have convinced herself that she could only tell the story she actually wanted by keeping it attached to the brand. Two, the influences she's tying together all kind of make sense as combinations if you squint at them hard enough. It's not like she tried to turn a black comedy about a woman following her dead son's instructions on how to murder a guy, dump the body and fake a perfect alibi into a whimsical family drama without changing the script at all. It's not immediately obvious that it's doomed to failure - at least, not if you're unfamiliar with the source material beyond the absolute basics. And three, she'd built a career on diverging stylistically from her source material, throwing in a ton of thematically linked but extremely varied influences and having the results be very popular, highly acclaimed or both. I think I get how she convinced herself that she could, should and needed to do this.

[@MovieEggman]

That’s one of a way of saying that Traynor doesn’t care about Spider-Man or everything the character stands for.

[@expendableindigo9639]

@@MovieEggman I don’t think that’s fair though, she still connected with Doc Ock’s origin and Green Goblin’s campiness and had Peter Parker’s awkward teenageness in there, not to mention the parallel cutting between Uncle Ben and MJ’s abusive father was a cool idea.

[@JackedThor-so]

WELL SAID! I feel the same way regarding Fant4stic. Like, you can't take a corny cookie cutter superhero premise, turn it into disturbing gorey uncomfortable body horror for 2 hours and expect the studio / test audiences to be on board. It's just TOO experimental. Honestly, I also feel the same way about Ryan Johnson's approach to The Last Jedi. While his commentary on the black and white and, frankly, uninteresting themes of good and evil in Star Wars is interesting ON PAPER, trying to say that using the franchise itself as a mouthpiece is a recipe for disaster. There's a reason The Boys created their own characters instead of trying to license the DC cast.

[@EtchJetty]

All I could think of when you showed that scene where Arachne talks about her Desirability was "Eight legs Grimsby"

[@theuncannydag]

Seven vagánias

[@fnkyron]

“MJ sings the homestuck amv song” Emily I am begging you to stop causing me physical pain

[@magicalgirllaurie]

Part of me wonders how much the whole “Peter being a totem of the Spider god” arc in the comics from the early 2000s influenced the Arachne storyline. Obviously most of Arachne comes from Julie Taymor herself, but so much of act 1 feels like an Ultimate Spider-Man retelling that it’s clear Taymor did read quite a few comics in research for the play, even if she throws it all away in act 2.

[@smhfirebruh5630]

I think the Taymor might have been inspired to do the Arachnee stuff from Ultimate Spiderman. The first volume literally opens with Norman Osborn being like "have you ever heard of the tragedy of Arachnee the seamstress?"

[@EnvyOmicron]

Yeah, a lot of the business with Arachne choosing Peter as her "totem" feels like it was taking some inspiration from both Ultimate Spider-Man and JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man.

[@expendableindigo9639]

What was that weird insert characters name from that comic again? Mogo? Mungo? He was like a little Mole Man with a bowl cut (but not *the* mole man), although I remember the comic being in pre-2000s artstyle so I might be confusing it with another Spidertotem comic.

[@smhfirebruh5630]

@@expendableindigo9639 could you put in a little more details. Cause i got no idea who you talking about

[@expendableindigo9639]

@@smhfirebruh5630 Sadly I lost the source video that I found it out from, but I think it was an old Nerdsync video. Basically a mystical mole man with a bowl cut (think an imp/magic being kinda like Mr. Mitzptlyk from Superman, but he had a green outift & brown hair so in that sense kinda looked like a mini Doc Ock) created a meteor, or something, and set the stage to give Spider-Man his destined powers. It was a dumb retcon that even the comics themselves ended up making fun of later, but it very much reminds me of Arachne’s role here.

[@sighrelief]

honestly a story about spider-man (regular kid who gets superpowers he didn't ask for, an every day person with power thrust upon him, could've been anyone, great power and responsibility) having a story about Arachne (regular kid who could sew real good, tried to one-up a god and was turned into a spider for it) could be a really interesting story and it's sad to see how it turned out in a lot of ways. My mind is practically booming with ideas this could go down, enough to where arachne could genuinely be a primary spider-man villain and work. Both of them have this similar circumstance thrust upon them but where peter's was pure chance arachne's is a curse of hubris. You have arachne still to this day pulling at peter, feeding him eugenic ideas about how they're better than the regular man and how they should rise above, how peter acknowledges that his power could've been trust upon anyone and he's only acting as spider-man not because there's anything unique about him specifically, but it's the right thing to do. Even goblin is dropping references to fascistic writings here. I feel like arachne makes a really compelling foil. There's so many themes here. And she's the origin of spiders! You could make a psudo argument that peter grew up in a world of man but also comes from a background of the (from arachne's perspective) the devine. How they're tied together, how peter is inseparable from that side of himself, his "origin", what makes him "great". Like, here's a random idea, after peter declines both goblin's and arachne's offers, they team up together as they both feel that they're superior to the every-man. Like a battle of philosophy and a physical spectacle. Hell make it a musical number. Action choreography as they argue about eugenics, the physical fight can be a diagetic metaphor for the argument idk! hell, maybe have arachne and goblin's union be a lose one as arachne still ultimately believes she's above goblin Look, I'm not a theater person, but i guess in every bad piece of art with good themes i just desperately want to see it done well. Hopefully this thematic interpretation of arachne isn't off the table for spider-man in the future, some how some way. o-oh god d... do i write fan fiction? I think this is the part where i write fan fiction. oh no. Edit: i'm re-reading this over a year later and wow she really did just write green goblin 2 huh

[@ernie39]

do it!!

[@AAAAAAAA-ss6gn]

The first play to make one morbillion bucks.

[@trasegorsuch5140]

Really?

[@tmanthepseudophilosopher9526]

“It reminds me of my husband, the green goblin.” This got me.

[@thomasbishop7284]

38:24 I'm not an artist, but I definitely interpreted the Arachne myth similarly. When I was a kid I was really into greek mythology, but I always sympathized heavily with the victims. Rather than looking at the "moral" of the story, I just see the greek gods as abusive assholes, basically immature kids given immense power

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Given Zeus is the main god, it's not necessarily a wrong interpretation. Or Cassandra being about a girl being punished by Apollo for dumping him (I can't help making some parallel between this myth and Arachne's.) But yes, I feel similarly. To me, Arachne's talent is actually not even that important. What's important is the goddess punishing her for entirely selfish reasons. If anything, it is about Athena's hubris, more so than Arachne.

[@thevoidlord1796]

I mean, wasn't the most common retelling of the story from a guy who famously hated authority and society as a whole, so his retellings were often framed through the lens of hating the gods?

[@musa5950]

@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Zeus is literally the distracted boyfriend meme.

[@nrnrn999]

This honestly depends on what version of the stories you know. In some versions, Arachne *is* the better weaver and Athena strikes out at her in anger. This version is most apparent in Ovid's retelling in Metamorphoses. Now, Ovid was an interesting figure. For one thing, he was actually Roman, not Greek, and for another, he had a lot of issues with authority, eventually being exiled from Rome by the Emperor, and in many of his interpretations of Greek mythology, he would often alter them to put the Gods (the ultimate authority) in the position of being abusive, fickle assholes. That's not to say the Gods weren't assholes in previous tellings but Athena in particular was generally more level-headed and kind, especially when it came to women who she would give sanctuary to. Ovid's version of Arachne's story seems very out of character with most characterisations of Athena, which makes me more doubtful of Ovid's biases.

[@Jarack25]

It feels a bit creepy that Arachne is forcing herself onto Peter, a minor. I don't think enough people talk about how really screwed up this plotline is, and as a musical theater and superhero geek who likes to analyze what works and what doesn't, I appreciate someone talking about this musical, narratively. Also the Twisted reference was golden: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJvUhHakhclmrbc

[@RosieG9012]

Pretty sure Peter’s an adult by that point, given that act 2 is basically an adaptation of raimi’s spider man 2, when the characters are well past high school

[@GigasGMX]

Peter Parker *starts* his story as a high school senior (e.g. potentially not a minor) and only ages from there. Try again.

[@ashleylunette2187]

Of course Emily would be invested in Spiderman: Turn Off The Dark for over a decade. It just makes sense

[@cibor07]

Here is What I think. 1.0 is 2 stories mash together: arachne's story and spiderman's story. The first one is actually the main one while the second one was a 'shit, we actually have to make it about spiderman' sideplan. As much at it seems that the second one is actually more fleshed out, it feels the other way around. In a perfect world, someone reads the first draft, thanks Taymor for her time but they can't run that version and she goes to make a weird but compeling musical about Arachne. Maybe that would have been for the Best, but we got this instead. Brilliant in some unorthodox way, but a failure at the end of the day.

[@sylviesuccubus8503]

My takeaway from this was ‘Art definitely shouldn’t be censored, but maybe some art shouldn’t be funded to the tune of millions of dollars’, so: hard agree.

[@jberry496]

I was crew on the U2 tour at the same time as this production. Bono and The Edge would be MIA only to come back more and more pissed off every time. We weren't even allowed to mention it to them.

[@gregorydavidson2744]

I'm not even a theater student and even I'm stressed at the idea of waiting until opening night to run through the entire show for the first time. Spider-Man and greek mythology mixing together just feels...off. Spider-Man is a grounded hero, usually dealing with his poor economic standing and relationship issues; greek mythology is larger than life and usually abstract. It's kind of like mixing water and oil. This play sounds really weird and horny and not in a good way

[@EngineerLume]

I watched a bootleg of this show about four years ago and it has refused to leave my head, not because of its admirable qualities but because it's like seeing a childhood pet taxidermied without your permission

[@DetectiveOlivaw]

As someone with no real passion for musical theater but interest in all forms of storytelling, I’ve always been fascinated with this show. The behind the scenes and technical stuff was most of what I heard, though, and I never really was clear on what the actual story was. So this video was really made for someone like me! Especially that bit in the middle where you drill down too deep and overanalyze the themes and almost come away with a coherent vision-it’s so easy to do that sometimes and lose sight of how none of that is actually accessible to the audience.

[@ZaGorudan]

16:12 There IS a stage version of The Fly, actually. It's an opera composed by Howard Shore, the composer for the Cronenberg remake. Looks interesting.

[@martinsorenson1055]

I made this same statement, almost word for word. Except that I did see the opera. I mentioned in my comment that it's probably exactly what you see in your head. Oh, and Cronenberg directed it.

[@aidansullivan551]

29:30 Cassandra Cain totally would have figured out Red Hood was Jason... if she saw his body language before he died. Given how uptight Bruce is with her, idk if she would have seen any footage of him. Also I strongly agree, all those DC animated movies take away a lot of the visual artistry of the comics they're based on. Like that Gotham by Gaslight movie takes away the Mike Mignola style that made that comic good (bc the story is kinda meh) and same with the Long Halloween and Tim Sale.

[@OhNoBohNo]

the problem is that cassandra cain deserves to be in every piece of media, but shes so great she would end the conflict so quickly. Remedy: every piece of DC media becomes Cassandra Cain doing everyday stuff, like taking Stephanie Brown on dates, going to the beach with the Batfam, etc. etc.

[@Joey245]

You know, looking at the footage, I can't help but wonder what it was like to actually sit there and watch all of this go down in front of my eyes. Would I be impressed by all the high-flying acrobatics? Or would I just spend the entire time worried about the people and the wires snapping? I dunno. I felt that little kid story on an instinctual level. Poor guy. Great video as always! These deep dives are always a delight to listen to.

[@exaclibur1]

If this came out ten years later there'd be so many storyboard animatics and arachni stans. We were robbed of the endless fandom drama and mcu stan vs turn off the dark stan discourse this would've brought to us.

[@Ramkoff]

Was Turn off the dark the karmic price Reeve Carney had to pay to be in Hadestown or was Hadestown the karmic reward he received for enduring Turn off the dark.

[@SSmotzer]

Julie: "This is my spider villain OC, she's an immortal spider goddess, no not Madame Web, my goddess is sexy and has hot spider love with Peter."

[@comixproviderftw_02]

That sounds about right

[@superdark336]

"Arachne doesnt work in this play because the play doesnt work" Im always tired of various "how i would fix [media]" theories and whatnot because at what point does it not resemble the original material, and why not move to greener pastures. I guess creativity itself is a reward.

[@georgeandrews1394]

The thing is, you love something for some aspects. It disappoints you in others. You feel like you want to remake it so it doesn't. So it becomes, in some medium, the great thing you know it could have been, the thing that's more than the sum of its parts rather than less. I understand that all too well. But you gotta honest with yourself about the flaws and about the quality of a work as a whole. It's a problem when you're deluding other people and yourself. Good things can have problems. Bad things can have positive features. And there's no shame in loving something flawed or broken, while recognizing that, indeed, it is (you know, with the usual caveats of loving anything). Is it better to move on? Well, I think that really depends on your motivations, your goals, and the nature of the work itself. Lot of factors there.

[@benburke3015]

5:45 Yes! I am so glad you mentioned this bizarrely hilarious factoid. The fact that Turn off the Dark also has elements of Greek mythology in it is also strangely perfect lol.

[@sammcguire3798]

Saw this live on Broadway. It was the FIRST musical I've ever seen. I got webbed by a Spider-Man stunt performer during the show and own the CD. This play is horrible and I absolutely love it.

[@freakfoxvevo7915]

2.0 was also my first Broadway show. Still have the playbill from that day's performance as a matter of fact

[@skibot9974]

My high school went to NYC for a long weekend and one of the stops was this musical. It was towards the end of the run so we got the second version and there was hardly anybody there. The guy playing Spider-Man got stuck on the ceiling for half an hour meaning we had to have a second intermission. They made a joke about it in one of the Daily Bugle scenes where Jaminson reads “Broadway Muscial gets interrupted for half an hour. That’s the stupidest headline I ever heard” Sadly it’s to this day the only Broadway Musical I recall seeing (my parents claim I’ve seen the Lion King on Broadway but I was so young I don’t remember it)

[@buffriku9998]

As someone who has been obsessed with this musical for years, this video is a godsend. I’ve always wanted to learn more about the story of it. Great vid as always!

[@JCOdrjones]

32:47 I need to timestamp this section at least for myself, because the tunnel vision thing you riffed on is something that I see so often in modern analysis (mostly film) in the world of KZbin. Where people are so focused on specific aspects and themes and those parts being relatively deep compared to an initial look and clicking more than people realized that people would say "Wait, X is actually good" a lot without realizing they're mostly praising what the piece is trying to accomplish rather than praising it for being a sound work as a whole (or even if the work actually accomplishes what it's aiming for. The BvS effect)

[@IcyIndigo]

I have never laughed at a line from a musical as much as I have laughed at “GET ME THE SHOES!!!”

[@expendableindigo9639]

Her arm flails followed by the backup dancers stumbling out with their protruding fake legs makes it so much better.

[@alienman909]

I’m so glad things are working out between you and the Green Goblin, Emily. Everyone knows he’s a troubled past, but it sounds like your marriage has been really good for both of you!

[@Lynch2507]

V1.0 sounds like someone who knows the whole "Spider-Totem" thing, liked greek mythology and percy jackson, but also did a little acid while writing, as a treat

[@fairguinevere666]

God that set design, choreography, costuming, is insane. I really wish we had a full, high quality film of it.

[@concordiaharmony2302]

I think one of my favorite versions of the Arachne myth has more to do with what Arachne actually weaved in their contest. Athena weaves a tapestry depicting the founding of Athens, where her and Poseidon quibbled over the name of the city, as well as a few other myths that depicted the folleys and dangers of Hubris. Arachne meanwhile decided the best course of action when presented to the Goddess of Wisdom is a tapestry showing her Father and UNcles multiple occasions that they decided to, ahem, do the sideways tango with women. Most of which being when they were shape shifted as animals. I like this version not only for the absolute insanity of the weaver for thinking that was a good idea, but also in that it demonstrates an actual reason WHY Athena legitamately won. Athena made her tapestry with a purpose, a message directed not only at Arachne but also other individuals. That self indulgence is folley and only leads to demise. Arachne's tapestry was well crafted, but the subject matter felt like it was just trying to jab at the gods with no real point otherwise. It's like say, as a recent example, making a video on Elden ring that just says its bad with no real good explanation given and expecting that to be a legitamate criticism folks should take seriously.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

She wasn't trying to win, she was trying to prove a point. What a queen! Sure, it's not that subtle, but she was screwed anyway unless she backed down. The power unbalance was far too huge,and she would have never win through legal mean. So she sabotaged it by making a giant middle finger. It was the only way she was able to express her agency without compromising her art. It's like if instead of criticizing Elden Ring, you presented an Elden Ring's KZbin Poop/Abridged Serie, to take your last example. Sure, it's not going to convince anyone, but it was never really a debate to begin with because in front of you is a hardcore fan. Nothing would have convinced them. It's petty. It's useless. But for a few moment, it felt really good before they beat you to a bloody pulp. TL;DR Arachne is the ancestor of Internet Trolls

[@concordiaharmony2302]

@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 In trying to make a point, she kinda MISSED the point. Like, keep in mind that the centerpiece of Athenas tapestry was the Founding of Athens. In a piece depicting individuals falling to hubris, she included the moment where her uncle, Poseidon, also fell to hubris by thinking he could win the Athenians favor with something that looks fancy rather then something practical. Athena KNOWS that the God's aren't perfect as individuals. Shes literally the result of that very idea. It's not arachnes place to judge. But remember: Athena CHALLENGED Arachne. If she went around claiming she was more beautiful then aphrodite or more powerful then Ares then she'd be dead or worse for such blasphemy. But it's like Athena actively is IMPRESSED with her skill and wants to see if she could actually put her money where her mouth is. Make a piece that could impress the gods. And in the version I'm most familiar with, she only chastises Arachne for her tone deaf piece and heavilly criticizes her, proceeding to save Arachne from killing herself by turning her into that first spider and thus continue to weave her beautiful creations. Of course this is an old myth with tons of interpretations and variations. Buy mine has always been that Arachne COULD have won that challenge and maybe cement a place amongst the pantheon if she took the challenge seriously in the first place.

[@JennyGeistVids]

That musical number with Arachne is so far on the "Planet of the Apes: The Musical"-ometer that I think it broke my brain.

[@Lastclerk3]

When my middle school had our Weekend trip to New York City over a decade ago, Spider-Man Turn Off the Dark was one of the Broadway shows that we had an option to go see. Phantom of the Opera won because of course it did, but over the years I’ve had this sick fantasy about what if we had chosen Spider-Man instead.

[@LilBig780]

I saw 1.0 in December 2010, a week before the Spider-Man Actor was injured. I completely repressed the Arachne “Get me the Shoes!!!👠” This show was an absolute fever dream, but I did kinda think it’s was kinda fun experience. I have a fond memory of sitting in the Mezzanine and the spider-man actor swung up to our row and gave my little cousin a high five and ran down the isle, that was pretty cool. Really wish I had to foresight to record it now 😂

[@cjhedrick6418]

Ironically enough, the first interpretation I heard of the Arachne myth suggested she was turned into a spider BECAUSE she won the weaving contest. Which didn't make sense to me at the time, since I was kinda used to stories like this having a moral. In this interpretation, the moral is just "Greek gods are assholes." Kratos: See? This guy knows what I'm talking about!

[@ZergrushEddie]

I only ever engaged with TOTD as a "wow, a Spider-Man musical on Broadway, lawl!" and never really had any incentive to dig deeper than that. Now the notion that actors would be on wires, 'flying' over the audience did intrigue me and I thought that was pretty darn cool. I was a pseudo-theatre kid in high school, did the whole 'production design' stuff so I had an appreciation for the wire work and behind the scenes stuff. Having quite enjoyed your Demo Reels and Cinemassacre videos, this was an auto click. Thank you for making my last hour of work so much better! :) Keep up the great work! Edit: Alright, WTF is this story?! I am 10 minutes into the video and we are already talking about Greek myths involving immortal spiders, explicit references to Peter Parker jerkin' in, Norman Osborne wanting to solve climate change with human genetic adaptation... and spider sex hormones?! HOW did I never dive deep into this before?! It's like if bath salts went on a bender...

[@V00doo1Xim]

what type on bender?

[@NoGoodNik1]

I don't want to overlook the great work you put into your narrative analysis, but you're the first person on KZbin I've seen reference the comedy bang bang TV show (through its own reference! Meta!) and I'm weirdly overjoyed. I haven't seen the play, ill admit, but the idea of the Geek Chorus is really interesting to me. I know the whole "superheroes as modern mythology" thing is overplayed, but I like the idea in theory of having contesting opinions on "WHAT SPIDERMAN MEANS" rather than them all suggesting a single narrative. A better reflection of how people actually engage with stories, if clunky in its execution.

[@Busterdrag]

Wait wait wait wait...so...The events from Peters life being set up, him getting transformed into Spiderman, Osbourne transforming into green goblin, Peter going wrestling, Uncle Ben dying, Osbourse making that proposition to Peter and then them fighting, with Gobbo apparantly dying...is all just act 1. What.

[@lispeaks]

at 17:39 i was halfway expecting her to say "...seven vagánias. maybe more"

[@technounionrepresentative4274]

A mythological suicidal weaver ordering her minions to invade new york and steal some shoes In order for the weaver to be more attractive than a failed actress... This might be the simultaneously worst and best villain motivation in spiderman history

[@GigasGMX]

Nah, worst is still "Mephistopholes is here to steal your marriage Because Editorial Says So".

[@bearlyhardley]

I’m only three minutes in, and I usually never comment on a video before I’ve finished it. But the sheer fact that you are going out of your way to analyze the play itself and not just the surrounding drama, makes this a video I’ve already liked and will more than likely add to my favorites.

[@Melissa-zh3zl]

It’s so interesting to hear various versions of myths - I’ve never read the version of Arachne’s story that you describe; the one I’m familiar with has Athena beating Arachne to death with her loom at the end of the contest because Arachne’s weaving was better and she felt embarrassed, then regrets killing Arachne and turns her into a spider as a sort of apology.

[@applejhon8308]

For those curious, the original comic for under the red hood is infamous for its notoriously awful ending. Things play out mostly the same way they do as discribed in the video but in the end batman decides to save the joker, using a baterang to slit jasons throat, leading to him dying again from his own bomb. He was brought back to life almost immediately afterwards but the damage had already been done and that sequence is regarded as one of the worst batman moments ever printed.

[@comixproviderftw_02]

Okay, hear me out… Movie adaptation and you get Andrew Garfield to sing the songs.

[@Gloomdrake]

All the songs, for all the characters, with different hats and wigs for when he's singing for someone else

[@comixproviderftw_02]

@@Gloomdrake Have it be a one man show 😂

[@MadQueenAlice]

"...because the director spent all the money on a golf cart." 😂 I'm so glad I understood that joke.

[@nathanl8622]

I assumed Arachne was a vague gesture at Greek theater. Greek myth, g(r)eek chorus, that tired line about superheroes being modern mythology. Like, there's _almost_ something there.

[@YuuChanneru]

I love musicals, especially when they're cringe or bad. That's why I love anime musicals. There's a whole Japanese TV channel only for such musicals and I love seeing an anime I love in a very different but fun, and at times deeply cringe light

[@benjisaac]

the death note musical is genuinely incredible

[@ovahlord1451]

Wasn't there an attack on titan one lmaoo

[@dralgo1646]

Why is it now all the sudden I find everyone acknowledge the death note musical exists

[@benjisaac]

@@dralgo1646 people finally became cultured I guess

[@martinsorenson1055]

You mentioned that you wished there were a musical version of The Fly... well, there is an opera. Directed by David Cronenberg himself. Music by Howard Shore, composer of the film music. It was.... the movie, but on stage. With music. And singing. It was probably the exact thing you see in your head.

[@steviebea]

oh i am STOKED for this edit: oh my god, i never realized that despite watching content on the musical, i never once heard what the actual plot was

[@OhNoBohNo]

if someone had told me this was a plot in an old spiderman comic i would've just believed them without thinking honestly also hi stevie

[@zariaackermann3147]

I love how the inclusion of the geek chorus and arachne happened because someone misunderstood someone else saying that they wanted to incorporate elements of the musical "Grease" as them saying that they wanted to incorporate elements of the country Greece.

[@zariaackermann3147]

Wait that's Carrie the musical🤦🏻‍♀️

[@octogirl555]

I hope this isn't cruel to say but the vibe I get from this show is that Arachne is an unintentional Taymor self-insert, and that the plot accidently developed as a mirror to her creative process trying to "get into" making a Spiderman story.

[@vaclav4435]

Looking at it that way, it might make an interesting companion piece with _Adaptation._ Of course, the whole deal with _Adaptation_ was that Charlie Kaufman was trying and failing to adapt Susan Orlean's _The Orchid Thief_ into a screenplay, only to eventually decide he couldn't do it made his creative struggle into the story instead. _Turn Off The Dark_ feels like what we'd have got if Kaufman had just delivered his mess of a script as-is as a straight _Orchid Thief_ adaptation.

[@octogirl555]

@@vaclav4435 Great comparison, I hadn't thought of that, it's an apt read considering how earnest and messy TOTD 1.0 ended up

[@phabiorules]

I think the play about “what Spider-Man means” is great, but man did they mess up the execution. It would’ve been a cool idea to have the four people’s interpretation being something along the lines of Person 1. Think that action is the most important aspect. The story is secondary to the spectacle of the comic Person 2. Spider-Man is a tragedy, where the best stories involve him suffering in a way Person 3. Spider-Man being the perfect Everyman who is now caught up in extraordinary situations Person 4. Someone who likes Spider-Man because he is funny. The play could alternate styles depending on who is in charge with person 1 scenes could focus on spectacle, person 2 being more depressing as a tragedy, person 3 having a more slice of life relatable tone, and person 4 being a comedy. I think it would have been a great way to appeal to theater goers by dissecting a famous pop culture icon and why people like it, but also showing fans an appreciation and understanding of the character. You could even make the villains reflective of that with action being venom, tragedy being Goblin, Everyman being kingpin, and comedy being stiltsman. I always felt that Taylor didn’t really respect the source material, and was attempting to elevate it rather than appreciating it.

[@westcoast1155]

Criminally underrated take imo

[@reyrapids63]

I got to see it in person, and while corny, some of the sets were legitimately impressive. But you are fully correct with how weird the art direction gets. It's bizarre how many unique props or costumes they made for like, 2 seconds of stage-time

[@ds4251]

37:30 man i love it when creators - intentionally or otherwise - air out their grievances with a failed project via metaphor

[@EtchJetty]

It's interesting how this tried to do some of the spiderverse/Shattered Dimensions stuff, but like, in various different ways - arachne initially reminded me of Madame Web from that game, but then it kinda morphed into making _Being Spider-Man_ into a literal supernatural state of being a la the totem stuff from the comics. And it just made me appreciate Spider-Verse more, which I didn't think was possible, but yeah. That movie is just so so good at grappling with what I feel like the musical was trying to get at re: the legacy of Spider-Man As Art It's interesting for sure, and I'm super super glad this video exists bc otherwise I never would've known about this alternate take on that discourse

[@OhNoBohNo]

can you imagine if peter's spider-totem was arachne and acted like Konshu for Moon Knight and just, CONSTANTLY PESTERED HIM INSIDE HIS HEAD

[@sagecolvard9644]

My main takeaway: When choosing her name, Lady Emily did so entirely to make jokes about being Green Goblin's wife. My secondary takeaway: I 100% agree with Julie's interpretation of the Arachne myth. In every version I've heard, Arachne's tapestry wins the contest. Her winning means she is actually better than Athena in this area, and as such, believing she is better is not hubris.

[@janNowa]

Yeah, I think a common interpretation/telling of the Arachne myth reflects more poorly on Athena than Arachne. Obviously as with all myths there are many versions.

[@jamesleigh8134]

Yeah, this video brought back memories of being told the myth in like year 3 of school and I remember really strongly thinking the gods here were the villain and for some reason that really stuck with me.

[@kylegonewild]

The Greek and Roman gods are mostly a bunch of unhinged pricks. At least the Norse gods are goofy and share in mortality with the humans they preside above.

[@eldritchexploited5462]

My main issue with that interpretation is that it really doesn't gel well with Athena's general characterization. Athena's generally portrayed as a level-headed and emotionally distant tactician, her being so needlessly petty and a sore loser kinda goes against that.

[@janNowa]

@@eldritchexploited5462 that would be fair if it was a work with only one author but remember these gods have many different interpretations by lots of different cultures and people over many many years.

[@TehCoasca]

I think analysis of failed media is the connecting theme of Emily's videos

[@splaterkin5138]

I never once for even a single moment that this musical was about Greek mythology, that's fucking wild

[@TheDioBrando]

I will be honest. I did not expect the words "And then the goddess Arachne descends from the Astral Plane" in a Spider-Man Musical.

[@Gabriel-sp1ji]

I recognized Julie Taymor's face but I couldn't remember where I saw her. Hours after watching this video my mind thought of "Smallville: Turn off the Clark" from CN's Mad, just rewatched it and there she was. So thank you for making me get the reference a decade after I watched it as a kid.

[@alejandrocervantes3624]

*"turn off the Clark" Fun fact, at the end of the scketch its revealed she was Lex luthor in a wig all along :v

[@lilicrozma]

The Twisted reference absolutely blindsided me there. Great video, Emily!

[@Griffsterometer]

Thank you! I've seen a few videos about turn off the dark but none of them answered my main question, which is "What could the plot be for a Spider-Man musical???"