Laowa 12mm f2.8 w/ Magic Shift Adapter vs Canon 17mm Tilt Shift

[@Sondercreative]

Buy yours using the links below. Laowa 12mm f2.8 with Magic Shift Converter - bhpho.to/2vlUXmB Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Tilt-Shift - bhpho.to/2CdVqWa

[@hawaiirealmedia5610]

Really like your thorough style. This Laowa plus the tilt adapter is only $1,150 new, versus Canon's 17mm is $2,100. But a used Canon can be had for $1,600. But with the Laowa, you also get a naive 12mm, without tilt, so that is a huge plus for it. This new company is very interesting.

[@mamumonkan]

thorough style ... except for not showing any night shots or interior lights or flaring in sunlight or sun stars ????

[@gillesmatheronpro]

Nice review, thank you. But, is it me or the music is somtimes too loud... in a way it partially covers the voice ? And that seems to be a new trend in tutorial videos. Some music is nice, sure... but the only real interest resides in the content.

[@DavorKmica]

What about the Zeiss Distagon 18mm f3.5 with the magic shift adapter as an alternative for the 24TS? Did you have a chance to test it?

[@whyyesca]

Well done video but you forgot to mention one critically important thing which is that if you plan to crop, print larger that 8x10 or sell, you are cropping the heck out of your images with that approach. Basically, you’d be turning your camera into a crop sensor AND lopping off a third of the pixels on top of that. I know that some beginners may not know the difference, so you really should mention that to make it clear. Years ago when I first started photography someone told me that I should used crop adapters and lenses, as I could save a lot of money and get more focal length for free. I found that I also loss effective aperture, and now when I go back years later to crop and print the cropped sensor lens and adapted lenses photos I find how much resolution I gave up. I didn’t see it until I tried to crop or print. I feel so dumb taking that bad advice because I have a lot of amazing photos i handicapped. Also, now that I have had many years of experience I can instantly tell I am working with a crop/adapted lens photo in the editor. Guess it’s like food and wine, as a kid I just didn’t know any better, since I couldn’t tell the difference! From my experience you would be MUCH better off buying a native size Samyang lens. I bought mine for $425 used, and it is visually indistinguishable from the $2,000 Canon I used to rent, once I turn on the defringing for the minor effect in some photos towards the edges. Just sayin, you should clarify this for people, so you don’t mislead them like I was by a “professional” years ago!

[@Sondercreative]

So the cropping occurs in lens meaning that the actual resolution you’re left with is the full 50mp of the 5DSR. It doesn’t actually crop the sensor in any way. The optics in the adapter take care of any issues and also reduces chromatic aberrations. It’s actually pretty cool.

[@whyyesca]

I checked with the company and got the requested feedback. They say it does not crop. Instead it is “designed specifically for FF to avoid cropping”. She said, cropping would mean a reduced quality resolution. I don’t have the background to fully understand this, but she said the optics “help match to the full frame entrance pupil with the exit pupil of the lens for full frame use”. So, the issue is the word “crop” that they say some people are using and is incorrect, since they are not really cropping anything. According to them at least.

[@Sondercreative]

@@whyyesca that’s brilliant thank you for properly looking into this. You’ve been really helpful.

[@amdenis]

Given the crop and everything else you lose with the Laowa, the better and more accurate comparison would be to the Canon 24mm f/3.5, which you can get used for the same price as the Laowa plus adapter, but it does not reduce your megapixel resolution by 40%. Or... you can get the Samyang/Rokknon 24mm TS in native for your camera.

[@Sondercreative]

So the crop is affected in lens not on the sensor. You still have the full resolution of the full frame sensor. Also the crop factor in lens means that the field of view is similar to the 17mm and not the 24mm lens. The laowa with the adapter is a lot wider than the 24mm lens. Hope that helps.

[@amdenis]

@@Sondercreative - Thanks for the quick feedback! Any input cropping of the image reduces the image size across the sensor, and thereby the effective number and resultant conversion efficiency of photosites that are employed. That is, if in fact it is actually cropping, which on quick glance of the product, I believe you are correct in saying. Basically, cropping in any modality (i.e. at the lens to sensor source, within the camera via digital in-camera processing, or in post production), always discards and/or doesn’t use the full available sensor resolution. In contrast, in instances where the focal length causes the image to appear as a different size (i.e. going from 17mm to 24mm ) but remaining as a same sensor-size mode lens (i.e. FF to FF, APS-C to APS-C, MFT to MFT, etc), there is no loss of photons to the sensor, since there is no actual cropping. However, if you employ anything that actually crops the image, such as adapting an APS-C to a FF sensor without OPTICALLY adapting (i.e. using a focal length reducer), then you are losing photons, resolution and available aperture (more accurately reduced entrance pupil size resulting in apparent aperture and focal length changes). So, I haven’t looked into the product to know whether it is actually cropping or not, but if you are correct that it is in fact cropping, then while your digital image will remain whatever megapixel it should be without cropping, it will be resolving a lower resolution, reduced-photon image. Let me know if I am in fact missing something or not, and thanks again for the feedback.

[@Sondercreative]

​@@amdenis So I don't know enough about the subject to make a comment from a technical standpoint, however, what I can say is that in real world conditions, the difference is not at all noticeable. The resolution of the images the Laowa combination produces is still 50mp on the 5DSR and the image quality remains excellent. You may have a point in what you're saying but the actual impact is not noticeable in any regard in real world shooting environments. Does that answer any thoughts you might have? I wish I could help more but this isn't my area of expertise.

[@waydownsouth]

@@amdenis The adapter isn't cropping anything - it's a 1.4x teleconverter with a shift mechanism. In a nutshell it is employed here to "enlarge" the image circle of the primary 12mm lens enough in order to facilitate 10mm of shift whilst providing coverage over the full frame sensor. That's all. As with any shift lens (Canon's 17 & 24mm included), shifting to the "maximum" probably won't yield optimum results (the image starts to lose optimal resolution and mechanical vignetting is likely at the most "stretched" edges) so there are limits depending on personal tolerance. But there is no cropping, only "enlargement". So used on a 50MP sensor you will get your full 50MP. All available tests I've seen seem to suggest that the use of the shift/teleconverter doesn't have any apparent negative impact on real world images vs the primary 12mm lens, in fact it's generally reported to "improve" results, probably not that surprising given it's "zooming" into the best (centre) portion? I've seen the results, I don't have to understand how it works beyond that.

[@anxiousappliance]

I've had very good results with the 17 and 24 when using the MC11 adapter on the a7r2. The cheaper adapters definitely have issues with vignetting, losing electronic contact, and internal flare. Small rig makes a lens ring mount for the mc11 that I use with particularly heavy lenses. It takes the strain off the camera mount. They also sell specific l-brackets and an adapter support that can screw onto it. Seems specific to metabones, but I' wonder f it can be used with the MC11. I'd be interested to see the difference in resolution at the point where they have equal field of view: ie - a small crop on the canon. In general I try to avoid using max shift as no lens really works best at its limits. I'm also curious as to whether the MC11 gets better results than the metabones. I love these lenses on my sony. - I have gotten great results.

I believe the Laowa has a complex mustache barrel/pincushion distortion. Old timer's saying "Buy once cry once" (or "buy right, buy once"). That means... buy Canon.

[@MarttiSuomivuori]

The main thing to consider is: Can you actually shoot wide angle? Will 12mm add something to your output quality or is it just a fad? Same goes for TS. Real people doing architecture might find it useful but how about you or me? Most of the time you can tweak the perspective in LR without any visible deterioration of the picture quality. Pixel peeping is another thing. Still, I will probably get the Laowa 12mm after I have gone through the basics of WA with a 15mm lens. It is another way to look at things, totally. WA is a synthetizer. (liked and subscribed)

[@Sondercreative]

I do shoot architecture so yes a TS lens is properly useful to me :-p.

[@declanmurphy1006]

@@Sondercreative but is the quality that much better compared to using the 12 and cropping, or using say a 14 and correcting in post?

[@LoganKohn]

Loving your content, superb videos. Subscribed!

[@funland108]

Thanks for this. Excellent information. Tempted to get this combination as part of a travel system. Except I've just seen that the shift mechanism slips - how useless is that?? Isn't there an option to tighten up the mechanism?

[@Sondercreative]

funland108 oh absolutely you can tighten up the adapter easily and when you do tighten it up it doesn’t slip at all. The point I was making was that the canon doesn’t slip even when it’s completely loose but the Laowa does

[@funland108]

Ah, that's good to hear, thanks for clarifying. One other question: can you use it with a regular Canon EF to Sony adaptor? Maybe that's what you did to test the 12mm on the Sony - useful for photographing tight bathroom spaces.

[@Sondercreative]

funland108 you can use it with a normal adapter on the Sony however the edge sharpness might be affected depending on the adapter you use. I wouldn’t personally use it for interiors although there’s no distortion perspective will be wayyy off.

[@tc227]

Great review! I always wonder how Laowa 12mm + Magic Shift compares to TS-E 17mm. Which adapter did you use with TS-E 17mm? Metabones?

[@Sondercreative]

I used the Metabones V adapter which is the latest one from them. Thank you for watching, much appreciated.

[@kingling1825]

@@Sondercreative best wide angle adapter is the Sigma MC-11. Got best results on the 11-24 Canon and the 17mm TS-E where the Metabones wasn't very sharp at the corners Huge Difference. Especially at the 11-24mm Canon. And I am using it on an A7RIV

[@Sondercreative]

@@kingling1825 I have to agree, I thought the sigma was better too.

[@dalefrolander3583]

Doesn't the laowa have more depth of field since it's a 12mm image that's being expanded to a 17mm field of view. Although that may not be true as it's shooting at a stop faster to get the same aperture as the canon.

[@_rhapsodist]

Nice one! I was hoping for some proof of the compatibility with other EF lenses, have you tried it? There is also a Nikon version of the Magic Shift, does that have aperture control??

[@peterwf6641]

How about testing the 12mm without the Magic Shift Adapter?

[@Sondercreative]

It's a fantastic lens but not effective for architectural photography as the shift features are very useful. This is aimed more towards archi photographers. I might work on a review of the 12mm lens on its own.

[@Ferrari250GTO1962]

Wow... hooda thunkit? That adapter works fairly well!!

[@drashadibudi]

you keep saying that this is not a fair comparison because the 17 mm tilt-shift using an adapter to the Sony. But I'm pretty sure that your adapter has no glass in it. So I think it's a fair comparison. The 17 mm or form worse

[@Sondercreative]

Ashadi Budi the adapter does have glass in it. Also even adapters without glass noticeably reduce image quality in the corners for tilt shift lenses.

[@drashadibudi]

@@Sondercreative no, i mean the canon 17mm tilt-shift adapted to sony. No EF to E mount adapter have glass in it. So it will not cause a change to the optics.. the hollow tube of the EF to E mount adapter will only be like a spacer with electronic contacts for the autofocus system. And for the laowa, I know The magic shift have glass in it. But it doesnt effect the sharpness of the 12mm laowa.

[@pdp11]

@@drashadibudi The thickness of the glass filter of the Sony sensor is designed for a different angle of incidence than adapted wide angle SLR provides, hence the loss of sharpness. The effect is more pronounced the wider the SLR lens is.

[@bartekbielinski9015]

Well, I am architectural photographer and actually sharpness is equal value to chromatic aberration performance as flaring. Especially if you do interior architecture. So would be great if You did much more thorough comparison of these two. But for that price - I believe laowa Is a great option for a beginner. And why didn't they put some locking screw so it does not shift by itself/ gravitation?!?!? It would be pretty annoying! Especially when You have such a great technology included in A7RIII as Pixel Shift. Thanks for the review!

[@Sondercreative]

If it's sharpness and CA then the Laowa is definitely better. Personally, I also value colour and the Canon is much better in that area. The lock mechanism on the laowa is a bit weak and you're right I wish it were better.

[@kevinharding1181]

It's not an issue once the lens is locked down, which is simple to do. Though as Sander said the lens won't hold it's position without being locked. It's an extra step but considering the advantages Sander showed (as well as being able to use it as a low distortion 12mm lens) it's an amazing value lens. Colour never bothers me as much as vignetting (the Canon has more) as it's easily corrected in post.

[@terrywbreedlove]

I just ordered an adapter for my MFT Pen F with Nikon lens mount. Just for fun to do some crazy portraits and little people on the beach. It is on the slow boat from China and just arrived in The USA a couple hours ago. Cost $21 total :)

[@Sondercreative]

I’d love to see some of the results man. Please post them up :-)

[@Sondercreative]

I’d love to see some of the results man. Please post them up :-)

[@2mitts]

Link to what you purchased? Did it meet your expectations?

[@soundslikewater]

Thank you!

[@henri.witteveen]

What are your thoughts about the Cambo Actus view camera using a Sony A7 series as a digital back?

[@antzpantz]

Seems like I got this video before the 1080p version was available!

[@Sondercreative]

Should be 4k when KZbin is finished getting ready :).

[@fernandosantospty]

How are you? Does the 1.5x include lens compression?

[@Sondercreative]

Lens compression has nothing to do with the focal length. Its entirely based on how close or far you are from the subject. Focal length or magnifying adapters have literally no impact on lens compression ever or in any scenario. Its physically impossible. Basically anytime you have to move further away from the subject the compression in the scene will increase. If you move closer compression will decrease.

[@fernandosantospty]

@@Sondercreative thank you very much!

[@morganrothblat9198]

You need to buy the Canon version of the Laowa lens for this to work correct? So to use as a 12mm lens on the Sony you need an additional adapter?

[@Sondercreative]

Yes, that's correct.

[@morganrothblat9198]

@@Sondercreative Do you lose any stops when using the MC-11 adapter or does it retain the f2.8?

[@Sondercreative]

Morgan Rothblat you lose one stop of light with the magic shift adapter but you don’t lose any light with a normal adapter like the MC-11. With the sigma adapter it remains an f2.8 lens.

[@shang-hsienyang1284]

You can use the MSC adapter for shift and LM-EA7 adapter to give it autofocus.

[@Sondercreative]

@@shang-hsienyang1284 The flange distance would be too long then.

[@BassamIsmailtv]

I wonder if you could advise me .. I am using a canon eos 5d m4 and canon tilt shift 24 and looking to upgrade to a a wider choice .. would I go for the loawa 15mm tilt shift or settle with the 12 mm and adjust the distortion in photo shop or light room

[@Sondercreative]

I would definitely go for the 15mm from Laowa. If you're shooting architecture and you're aiming to or are currently doing it professionally then you need the right tool and the 15mm is the right lens.

[@matt.banton]

Do you think you could stack another 1.4 teleconverter on to this to make it a 24mm shift lens? Something like the Sigma TC-1401. Then you'd have 17mm and 24mm shift lens for around a 1000 pounds :) Maybe I'm dreaming!

[@Sondercreative]

Matt Banton possibly yes, I think that should be something you can do although I haven’t tried it. You will more than likely lose a bunch of quality though. Also you’d end up with a 24mm, 17mm anddd a 12mm lens :-).

[@matt.banton]

I was thinking the same thing regarding quality, would be interesting to see the results. The lens combo is very appealing if it was still usable at 24mm. Shame Laowa don't do the 15mm for Canon. Do you know any other super wide primes with minimal to zero distortion that would work with the MSC? I've done a bunch of research but not finding much. Might just have to keep saving the pennies for the Canon 24mm TS!

[@shashikumar9859]

Sir your video very good sir you my bast hero

[@Sondercreative]

Shashi Kumar thank you so much really appreciate that.

[@laughingman4236]

12:26 does that locking knob not work?

[@Sondercreative]

The locking knob works to fix the lens in place but once loosened the lens will simply slide down instead holding its place like the Canon does.

[@jklasfjkl]

Why does the TS17 have sharpness issues on the Sony?

[@Sondercreative]

x010xLoLx010x essentially it’s the adapter causing it. Maybe it’s the design or how it allows light to pass but edges do seem to suffer with very wide angle lenses when using adapters.

[@gbee8888]

Have you tried the Canon 24 TS-E on the Sony body? Does it have the same sharpness issues as the 17 TS-E?Thanks.

[@Sondercreative]

g bee the 24mm works allot better but you’ll notice some difference in corner sharpness. It’s very minimal though and only there if you’re really looking for it. Cheaper adapters may perform worse.

[@gbee8888]

Ok, thanks.

[@philippewiget]

I find this adapter statement very confusing. The adapter doesn't have any optical elements, so the only way to impact would be reflections, right? That should reduce contrast, but not sharpness. Any speculations on what's going on? Which adapter are you using? Thank you!

[@mlentsch]

I HATE unsharp edges... and chromatic aberration... damn it

[@Sondercreative]

Mike Lentsch the Laowa night be a better option for you then.

[@mlentsch]

@@Sondercreative Yeah, I'm glad that I just didn't "run out" and order the ts-e... that said, I WISH there was a native option.... I don't see that happening, though

[@miklosnemeth8566]

@​Sonder Creative At 9:47 you nicely demonstrated how much sharper the Laowa/Shift Adapter is than the TS17. I am a Sony shooter, too since I make 4K videos with wide angle shift lenses, and the Canon EOS R, which I used to have, was a total disappointment because of its 1.8x 4K crop. The other big bonus of Sony cameras is that they have quite decent IBIS and it's really useful when used with a wide shit lens for handheld videography/photography. On the other hand, a used TS17 in very good conditions ($1600) is actually not much more expensive than Laowa ($1000 new) + Shift Adapter ($400 new). Very hard to decide. Thank you for your excellent review.

[@yassinebend3230]

Dude being a staf ...for fsprs thats not a privilege to be

[@Sondercreative]

Yassine Bend I think it absolutely is! Fstoppers is an awesome platform with some incredible people. Don’t be a hater :-p lol.

[@hectoro5144]

damn it dude, you speak too fast, it's like listening to eminem

[@Sondercreative]

Haha sorry lol. Maybe slow down the video?

[@hectoro5144]

@@Sondercreative no problem man, good info in it, cheers!