Lapping a V Block With a shop made lap

[@RandallMoore1955]

The Marvel Saw is by far one tool that a man would be proud to own let alone use, Thanks Tom for showing.

[@brandonfesser1893]

The optical flat is fascinating! Never heard of that before. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[@stanyvallee2061]

I agree with your statement. Fascinating!Learnig every day, thanks to people like Tom.

[@ROBRENZ]

Hey Tom, great video! Get yourself a box of the 4.4 x 8.4 Kimwipes. Put a single layer of the Kimwipe on the part and then put the optical flat on top. Now slowly drag the Kimwipe out from between them and you will have a perfectly clean interface where you will be able to manipulate the flat to get the band spacing and direction you desire. Also fold a piece of paper into an inverted hat shape and put it in the vise and then grab the lap with the paper lined vise so all that lapping debris does not lube your vise but stays on the paper. ATB, Robin

[@peteferguson7024]

Great suggestions!

[@jasnmar]

Did I really just spend 25 minutes watching a man rub 2 pieces of metal together? Seriously, incredible work. Thanks!

[@donaldmoore8023]

The way people figured out how to measure things is astounding to me. I mean, I understand that the measurements my digital calipers spit out come from a measurement on a wave but to then see that broken down into it's base components and then expanded on in another direction like this is a real treat.

[@TheMetalButcher]

Wow. That gives me new respect for the gauge blocks. I mean I know they're good, but those lines are straight!

[@RRINTHESHOP]

Very cool to see that. Thanks for sharing Tom.

[@christophercastor6666]

The McD’s lunch tray is the real gem of precision in today’s video! This is an absolute killer for knocking out ignorance! Warm water changing shapes because yes, we are capable of working on THAT level in our shops. Damn dude, you are awesome. Thank you.

[@matman7546]

I don't find videos like this boring at all. There is something very hypnotic about it. Almost like an asmr video, but without the weird noises

[@janvisser2223]

That is one marvelous bandsaw you have in your shop.

[@scotthaddad563]

Brings back memories of running lapping machines when I worked as a hydrostat mechanic. We had a six inch diameter optical flat that I kept locked in a drawer so that the hammer and chisel mechanics couldn’t bust it. We had several lappers and the largest was about 60” in diameter. I would batch test and adjust the rings in or out to compensate for wear on the lapping surfaces which in turn adjusted the flatness of the plates being lapped. In that set-up, flatness was a constantly moving target.

[@oh8wingman]

I wish I could find one of those old Marvel band saws for a reasonable price. I worked in three shops that had them and the were indeed a marvel. At one shop, the automatic feed had gone out years before and I was told that they couldn't get parts for it. I took it apart during my breaks and found out that all that was wrong was the pin on the worm gear was sheared and the clutch was worn out. Since the clutch was actually made from cork sheeting, I took a cork bulletin board and peeled the cork off it and that became the new clutch. It was still working just fine a year later when I left that job for another.

[@RaysGarage]

Very Interesting Tom, the monochromatic light is amazing, The Marvel saw is pretty cool too!

[@arnljotseem8794]

So that is what optical flats are fore. Really cool. Thanks for sharing.

[@barrybeggs8543]

In my carer as a mech. in a power plant, I lapped safety valves on every overhaul.On the finish lapping ,would use 1000 grit,and just keep lapping and wiping the valve seat until the compound would break down so fine that the seat would would become a mirror finish,,,the seat would become so smooth it would become a filament finish,or you could see a flashlite filament in the seat...

[@nightriderrv1139]

Super cool, like the optical flat shows some cool info about the surface finish

[@stephenpeterson7309]

Very interesting video. Back when I was a SeaBee in Vietnam, we actually had a lapping plate to rebuild fuel injectors or maybe the pumps on diesel engines. We didn't have an optical flat to test it however. I don't think we were looking at that level of precision. It seems to me the lapping plate was 6 to 8 inches square.

[@bigmotter001]

Extremely interesting subject. Thanks for the education and take care Tom!

[@JourneymanRandy]

Not boring at all. Nice saw, thanks for showing us.

[@mark-]

Your a great teacher and mentor, thanks for the your time in show us your great knowledge around your workshop.

[@steverobb5360]

Very cool seeing the optical flat and the interference rings! Great video.

[@aaronrickard4675]

Used a saw just like that working maintenance in a steel mill good memories thanks for the video 👍

[@johnleake708]

Fascinating. I was part of a tour group in the early '60s where the company made hydraulic motors in Southern California. The swash plates (I recall that being the name) were lapped and measured on a machine like that. As I recall they were used for aircraft flight controls

[@EdgePrecision]

You ought to do a video in more detail on the feed mechanism on your Marvel saw. The way that works has to be one of the cleverest engineering designs I have ever seen.

[@Watchyn_Yarwood]

Super interesting bit about the optical flat and monochromatic light source!! More, please! I would like to see how flat you can get your V block.

[@886014]

Thanks Tom. Did the gauge block wring to the base? Did you finish up buying an autocollimator? You mentioned that at one stage. If so, set the V on a sine plate and collimate off it. You will get a very good indication of how accurate your V block is. Calibrate your sine plate with zero degrees (ie no blocks), Any lapped surface will provide a good enough reflection to do that. Gauge blocks make great mirrors in fact. Do you think the grooves were strictly necessary when using such fine abrasive? My understanding they're more for coarse abrasive so the excess that doesn't charge the lap has somewhere to go. Not such a factor with fine abrasive. One thing to mention to your viewers is to grind the lap before changing to a finer abrasive. The lap is charged and that layer needs to be removed before going finer. Your surface grinder is sensational and you do beautiful grinding. I've never seen that saw before. A very nice piece of kit, thanks for showing us that.

[@shakdidagalimal]

the last minute showing and explaining the lines was the best

[@patricksullivan9951]

Interesting video, I wondered how true flatness was determined, now I have a glimpse of how, & what to look for. Thanks Tom!

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

As a non-machinist (went to school for welding finished school and changed my mind) I am blown away at that finish. I didn't even know steel could be that mirror like. Nice work! Also making that "Lap" (?) was very interesting I have never seen that done and those cross hatches are really awesome looking. Any chance you could do a video on making one of those from start to finish?

[@petek210]

"Zen and the Art of V-Block Maintenance" By Tom Lipton. On book stands this summer!

[@TomZelickman]

Multiple lessons in one video - very nicely done, Tom. It would be interesting to see other ways to check flatness for the small shop, but I think you've covered that in previous videos if I recall correctly. Hard to keep track after all of this time. Search button to the rescue! Thanks for sharing, sir. Tom Z

[@princetikki]

The things I learn from you, I swear I can not learn anywhere else.

[@frankmuller5649]

Hey Tom... first time I've seen the optical testing... very impressive... thanks to you I learned something today. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge and being so casual about it... very much appreciated!

[@kbohm1]

Wow, you're truly the Norm Abram of the machine shop.

[@joshua43214]

You need some KimWipes. They are ubiquitous in labs, and with people who use microscopes. They are made from special paper they leaves no lint, and absorb an impressive amount of moisture considering they are closer to feeling like printer paper than tissue. I use them by the case in the lab, they are fairly cheap.

[@Dans-hobbies]

Excellent video Tom, specially the optical inspection part.

[@ScoutCrafter]

Outstanding Tom! 😃👍

[@outsidescrewball]

VERY interesting....enjoyed!

[@cryptk]

In a future lapping video you should see if you can lap two parts flat enough to get them to wring together.

[@larrysperling8801]

very interesting demo on how to measure flatness with light. camera work was very good.

[@ForgottenMan1]

Hip Hip Moiré on those patterns. Your lapping series solved my much lower resolution problem. I'll be lapping the bottoms of a new set of cast iron skillets [very nicely cast, but with a fine sandpaper-like as-cast surface from the casting sand]. I want the bottoms both smooth and flat so as to be non-abrasive and to get greater surface contact with the glass on an induction cooktop. Thanks Tom

[@jamienorton1123]

it is really amazing as to the tools that are out there and to how fine measurements can be taken down to good Tom keep em coming

[@stuarthardy4626]

Tom My first knowledge of optical flats come 50 years ago when as a Sparks was put on shift with a 60 year old Sparks mate , though time spent chatting between plant breakdowns it transpired he made gauge blocks (jo blocks ) during ww11 he when into great detail how they made them and the hand lapping process using CI Lapps and optical flats to test the results , and it's a bit footy now but a optical comparitor to get them on size , one thing that did stand out was the ruff ground the blocks then during them in the ground for two years ( greased up ) before finishing, he still had a couple of rejects that still wrung together , during the same time frame in ww11 dad worked on 18 foot HBM to bore and rifle large gun barrels ( he sett them up and the operators were all female )

[@ShadonHKW]

Saw envy. Nicely done.

[@thething4763]

You've got my curiosity peaked for what the supper precise v-block is going to be use for. ??!!

[@bidule22222]

Excellent video, as usual, thanks Tom for sharing. I'm pretty sure you would enjoy telescope mirror grinding and lapping. Much of the same, but with the added fun of figuring a concave or convex shape (paraboloid, ellispoid, etc.) down to a few nanometres (when we're lucky). Hours of fun! For the final lapping, we commonly use pitch laps and cerium oxide.

[@PeckerBrown]

That was cool! Thanks for the vid. You know us geeks are lapping it up...

[@DracoOmnia]

Tom's on a roll with introducing us to crazy ass new stuff most folks have never heard of before (me included!), the polariscope, the optical flat and a monochromatic light source by lapmaster. Being that I know a thing or two about lasers the "monochromatic" light source particularly piqued my interest, as most light sources emit a variety of wavelengths which we perceive as "white" (or yellow), I had thought that lasers were the only "lights" that we produce that operate on a single wavelength but that seems to not be the case, entirely anyways. Fascinating.

[@vincei4252]

Excellent information, Tom. Especially the part at the end evaluating with the optical flat. It's interesting because the laps you made look just like the laps used to polish mirrors for reflector telescopes. I believe the grinding material is also Aluminium Oxide; need to look see whether the Mirrors are ever finished with a diamond compound. I suspect the assessment of how well the mirror is made would be how concentric the bands are in the optical test setup the mirror fabricator uses. Thanks!

[@vincei4252]

Correction: Silicon Carbide.

[@StefsEngineering]

That optical flat, I saw one a couple of weeks ago for the first time in a "how its made" video about the starret micrometer production. Ofcourse in "how its made" tradition lacking all seriously interesting stuff. Thanks for the explanation I now understand the idea and it is pretty cool! It might also be horrible to have when you are a perfectionist.

[@kevinbrenton3036]

Love that saw , never seen such a beast .

[@mikedelam]

That's a very cool saw. Thank you for the video

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Tom, Very interesting subject... Enjoyed... ;) Cheers, Pierre

[@jtkilroy]

Nice Tom, the only things I have lapped are valves! Using what would amount to the equivalent of 32 grit paper! Enjoyed.

[@HolzMichel]

Hey Tom, when making a lap out of cast iron can you use any old grade of cast iron or is there one that does a better job? i've been seeing several different grades of cast iron in german ebay and have worked with some really bizarre stuff and so it would be good to know if there is any discernible difference a guy needs to watch out for? cheers mike

[@mimlomiani6949]

I have seen many, many machines, but it is my first time I see a machine like this!!! Thank you for Sharing :) I just love your work. Have a very good year and Hope to see lots and lots of video from you. Lots of love from Iran....:)

[@MrToolsinbox]

very cool Ox. Thanks for the lesson

[@mertonsilliker4858]

Beautiful job

[@krazziee2000]

now that was very cool Tom.

[@Hunter333444]

Oh it was very interesting thanks Tom

[@allyourcode]

Abraham Lincoln: Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Tom Lipton: Hold my beer.

[@TheSmreeder]

It has been many years since my time as a job shop machinist , Though I remember a crystal similer to what you used and I believe it was a type of Calcite Optical Feldspar ... One of the Gem quality version of the Sun stone used by Nordic Vikings to site the sun for navigation... Could be wrong or close. I think I have forgotten way more than I have learned in my lifetime... Many Blessings , SMR

[@ScottishB0b]

Fascinating to watch that Gauge block is amazing! Thank you. Learning new stuff is fun :)

[@kendog4570]

Used a saw just like that one in the first fab shop I worked in. Cut MANY a stair stinger with it!

[@erlingweiseth2774]

Always nice to see some of the stuff we were supposed to learn at school, for real! Thanks for sharing! ;)

[@hdheuejhzbsnnaj]

I would kill for a video showing how ol' Johansson did it with a Singer sewing machine.

[@MrRyan62583]

Oxtool you learn something new every day

[@InverJaze]

Tom wondering if an attachment for laping could be made to work with a shaper?

[@sjwsbetaskiller6218]

Not really. That's why they make proper lapping machines...

[@nothermarkgnomex]

Thanks, I will look forward to more lapping videos. I think you get monochromatic light out of any LED. You might using and LED flashlight and see what happens. Could save the rest of us a bundle for a light source..

[@BigMjolnir]

Cool saw! Cool optical measurement! Thanks for showing! One question: you had the v-block going off the end of the lap partially...doesn't that mean that the middle of the v-block gets more abraded than the ends? While the ends have left the lapping block and are hanging in the air, the center is still sliding across the lapping block. Also, unless you can precisely reduce the down force as the end comes off, you'll have more psi on the center than the ends see. Net effect is that I'd guess you get a concave surface. Not by much, but maybe enough to see with optical methods? I'd also guess that unless downforce is identical and pass count is the same, you are also moving the center of the V by not removing the same material from both sides...though since it's still a V, it will still work fine as long as you don't change the planar relationship. Precision nit-picking while you wait! :-) --- Mike

[@Robonthemoor]

You just have a way of moving on' fantastic show👍👍👍👍👍

[@MrJugsstein]

really interesting Tom thanks Will

[@randomdude1786]

probly the first time I've seen optical flats on youtube not a bad video at all I half expected a explination on how photons are particals the follow eachother around in waves and esentialy yer using a lazer to determin flatness its good to know how mr wizard love that saw that was what the press forming was bout ha awesome aqisition

[@moeszyslack4676]

Great video and very informative. Thanks Tom.

[@emildekoven4872]

Very informative....., but a bit more of the physical background would be welcome. What does the change in line interval, i.e., smaller to larger, indicate? Direction of curvature...? What a scheme for larger surfaces....?

[@billdlv]

Very interesting Tom, great content.

[@daki222000]

I allway think that lapping back and forward motion gives a curved surface. they do lenses and parabolic mirrors in a similar way i think. should it be a fun test to lap in one direction and see how the lines go then? interesting stuff by the way. thanks and cheers.

[@tombellus8986]

Great demonstration Thanks for sharing

[@shonuffisthemaster]

with those kinds of finishes and precision, im now verry much wondering if you could sharpen tools on a lap instead of using a stone....

[@jardo531]

Not boring! Very interesting.

[@mouseriverengineering]

I ask this few times in the past I really like the blanchered ground table you got that's thick I would love it if you talked about it in one of your next videos , what is Blanchard ground ?

[@jeffryblackmon4846]

You taught me something again. Thanks.

[@mavericksdesign7033]

Great stuff Tom. Thanks.

[@williamsquires3070]

If you have one, try the optical flat with an ordinary laser pointer; those should be monochromatic. :)

[@egx161]

Great video. You are a consummate professional. Thank you.

[@jackpaulson5834]

Very interesting. I have a lap I've never used. I think I'll have to order some abrasives. Now, how about a video on testing the ground and lapped block?(amateur here) The geometry makes it interesting. Parallelism of both sides of the base, parallelism and centering of the axis of the v to the sides of the base, parallelism of the axis of the V to the base, actual angle of each side of the V away from the centerline plane down the length of the V, etc.

[@CatNolara]

This video isn't boring, it's lapping *badum-ts*

[@tacitus101010]

Awesome video Tom. The finish you were able to get is astounding. Is there a risk of making the V-block surfaces out of square with one another? Maybe the amount of material being removed isn't enough to make a difference? The optical inspection blew my mind. Would you be up for doing a more in-depth video on that?

[@sjwsbetaskiller6218]

Sorry pal, nothing "astounding" here. It's just a quick lap, to make this thing shiny (with defects, as Tom himself mentioned in the video)... Yes, there is a danger of making things worst (squareness, parallelism, etc.).

[@charltoncarswell9977]

CALGON, take me away! Awesome video. Thanks for the informative video!

[@somebodyelse6673]

I had a couple "Oh, that's what they meant" light bulbs go on while watching this. Thanks Tom! I do have one question - do you just presume that lapping doesn't change the geometry (the angles those lapped faces have with everything else and each other)? I would think even a slight change to those angles would by far outweigh any benefits of smoother surfaces! I can't see how using the other side of the vee as a guide - covered in pliable, varied thickness tape which would certainly 'give' to some degree with inconsistent hand motion - could keep a precision measuring tool angle. Best to look for an answer from the source, eh? Am I concerned about something that just isn't significant here?

[@notsofresh8563]

Another very interesting video. Not that it should change much, but are you going to recheck the parallelism and angle of the V after lapping? Also, just curious, how do you decide when mixing grits and slurry solutions is ok and when it is not? Like obviously you wouldn't use 3 micron on the same lap as 60grit....but switching from 3 micron aluminum oxide to 3 micron diamond worked fine.

[@sjwsbetaskiller6218]

You've just answered your question. It doesn't make sense to mix very different grits, but you can get away with mixing similar grits/grades, nothing bad will happen (most of the time). But normally you should stay clean (don't mix or even store different grits together - you're asking for trouble, various surface quality defects, etc.).

[@ronalddavis]

Seems to me if you mix say 220 grit with 100 grit you still are only lapping with the 100

[@mikepecsok7371]

The grit particles break down as they are used and become smaller. So by continuing to use the lap with just a lubricant, the particles imbedded in the lap were being broken into smaller pieces and, eventually, they reduce to the size of the next grit.

[@injun-gman6216]

Nice video Tom! The only question that I have; is cast iron the standard or usual material for lapping steel? (and other metals) Thanks, Gman.

[@roleic7246]

What you do is not lapping by the definition I have learned. Lapping ALWAYS involves a random movement in 2 directions. But in your example you only move it in 1 direction. If your lap is not flat it will transfer its profile onto your work and not make it flat.

[@mattcurry29]

That was very cool Tom! Thank You Question, why use cast iron for a lap?

[@glmphoto]

Ive spent the last couple weeks watching your content. Super impressed with your extensive knowledge base. Thanks for sharring. Ive asked about the feed drive on that Marvel saw before and i dont mean to beat the horse here but im still a bit fuzzy on one thing. The long rod that runs the length of the saw i assume is the driven member. So it enters the migic box where the hand wheel is at. So whats in that magic box. It must skip teeth and the weight makes that either harder or easier to do. Could you elaborate on whats going on in that box and how it gets back to move the saw please. Kindest Regards

[@scotte2815]

whoa, Whoa, WHOA!! Why are you doing this the hard way? This Old Tony could have done that with a scribe, some water, and WD40

[@SK_bombardiers]

Question from the curious..... Why would a gauge block or vee block need to be THAT flat? What would you be manufacturing that required that sort of tolerance? Optical stuff like lenses maybe?

[@dongchen7940]

The Vee part flatness is critical if you are using it to check the roundness of a cylindrical part.

[@bcbloc02]

Nice saw! Now how do you get your block to look like the Mit? More lapping? I have been pondering how to do a precision bore and plunger with a clerance tolerance of .00005". I assume fine lapping would be the best method?

[@turningpoint6643]

I sure don't know a whole lot about it just to be clear Brian, but one old school method was to cast a lead lap inside the bore of precision rifle barrels and around a smaller diameter rod, pull that out and charge it with abrasives. Then work that through the barrel to average out the lead/lag errors and bring the bore to final size and surface finish. Multiple laps are needed since you change the abrasive grit and size as the bore and rifling gets better. Split expanding and reducing aluminum, brass, or cast iron laps both male and female are used by the guys who build ultra high performance competition model engines and they can get some amazing precision and surface finishes. The laps are slowly rotated and reciprocated sort of like the automotive cylinder honing machines. Some use just a drill press to rotate the lap at the slowest speed possible and the part is moved up and down by hand. Since the lap itself slowly wears it gets more accurate for straightness and roundness. That in turn starts doing the same to the bore. The whole process sounds pretty mickey mouse and low tech, but the results are supposed to be much much better than one would think these simple processes can do. Getting two parts to fit with the tolerance needed is the tough part obviously. But those two areas where they do high precision hand lapping and might be where you can dig up further information. And exactly how they get the size as well as the required surface finish and flatness on gauge blocks is something I've always wanted to know as well. I did know about how there checked with the light bands, doing it consistently and to millionths is what I can't seem to find out.

[@fernandgeenevan8773]

Tom, watched your video twice. I would like to suggest to rotate the groove pattern on the lapping block, so the surface of the v-block meets an equal amount of surface of the lap (the same way most files are cut).

[@oxtoolco]

Hi Fernand, With lapping its about averaging the cutting. There is some randomness in the process which is a good thing. This helps correct for randomness in the stroke pressure and length. You may be right that a different pattern would help. There is a small asymmetry in the lap but as you see I switch directions and sides on the lap. The vee surface came out pretty good. I was able to develop some fringe patterns with the optical flat but they were faint and frankly hard to interpret. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@davidaarons2488]

Very cool Tom, were did you get the compound from? I got a small lap table 3x6 and would like to play around with it just for fun. Now your saw is awesome. God Bless Ya Dave