Lawyer compares cost of continuing D&D to Pathfinder and other RPGs (Rules Lawyer)

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

ADDITIONS/ERRATA (many thanks to commenters): -It bears repeating that WOTC must be on its BEST behavior about monetizing during the edition change! And yes I'm aware of the new job posting for an AI Designer... I plan a companion vid addressing the shortcomings of 5.5E and what they show about Hasbro's priorities. -Because Pathfinder sells PDFs and supports charities, about once a year they put out several dozens of PDFs including its core books out as a "Humble Bundle" for a very low price, e.g. $13-$25. -If you have had to buy 3rd Party Products to improve your D&D game or improve its published adventures, that is much less necessary with PF2, which many will tell you "works out of the box." -I'd argue that D&D has a continuous "time and energy cost," because of time adjudicating rules, filling-in missing systems (e.g. magic item prices), needing to homebrew monsters, etc. -You need to spend $5 on Pathbuilder to stat out an animal companion or similar "2nd character."

[@Angelus_Ex_Umbra]

Two things you did not cover: First, for both systems if you plan on playing in the official organized play (Adventure League and Pathfinder Society, respectively) does require you to own at least the pdfs of any character option your player will use. Both leagues also have their own session and module fees. Second, The Pathfinder 2 Remaster system will be used for Starfinder 2. This is relevant for players that want a more sci-fi oriented campaign without having to learn an entire new system.

[@philopharynx7910]

On your explanation of making things easier to play and run, we have Pathfinder's rarity system. You can easily say that anything beyond common rarity requires GM approval. This controls many of the spells that are harder for a new GM to run and keeps to the more basic options.

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

Wanderer's guide is also something you could use, it's free, but it is cloud only, and has a limit of six characters, and is much less polished, but you can actually make pretty much anything for free.

[@Solid_Sayori]

I enjoy all of the content you make about proselytizing Pathfinder 2nd Edition and more specifically, encouraging people to stop playing 5e. However... I can't show any of these videos to my group. I feel like they have dug into D&D5e, and are already tired of me talking about playing another system. It's only going to cause friction in our group, and frankly I would like to keep playing with them. The fact is, I can't convince them to do anything. My DM spent 180 euros to pre-order the new D&D books, which in my opinion is him walking right into an uninformed purchase. I highly doubt he would change his mind after dumping 180 fucking euros no matter how many of your videos I link him. It is my belief that hardly anyone who plays 5e is going to be watching your videos. They are too stuck into D&D that their social media algorithms aren't going to recommend your videos. Even if they come across these videos by some chance, or if people like me link them, they are just going to dismiss these videos as 5e hate without even watching them. I think one way to reach out to more 5e players is if you made videos that weren't specifically about switching to Pathfinder. Maybe do some RPG story shorts about the games you have played in PF2e, or shorts where you edit together livestreams of PF2e campaigns. And I don't mean on some other channel that you or someone else have dedicated to making such content. I mean on this channel, so that people who play 5e might have some non-5e content from this channel sneaking into their algorithms. Hopefully, that might funnel them into your other videos that specifically proselytize other TTRPG systems.

[@philopharynx7910]

@@Solid_Sayori Many of the Pathfinder KZbinrs have done this. Including Ronald. Sadly, it's hard to convince somebody who is so invested.

[@mogscugg2639]

I had to pay $150 for the core books to get into dnd back in 2015 I paid $25 for a humble bundle that had six pf2e adventures, all three core books, and all three bestiaries

[@kanaric]

I paid $0 for PF2e when I first tried it. Just used Nethys for everyone. After everyone liked it I bought the game and a module in Foundry. I hope people realize this and WOTC finally takes the hits it deserves.

[@einkar4219]

I got $13 bundle I got core rulebook, beginner box and few one shots despite that core rule book became outdated I think it was worth the price so far this is the only time I bought ttrpg books but I hope it won't be the last time

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

That's a very important point! Adding to my pinned comment

[@poetgriot18]

Dont forget that you only have to pay for modules with paizo. Love that part. Archives of Nethys for the win.

[@Jason-ji8ql]

​@TheRulesLawyerRPG I think I even recall you mentioning during the OGL issue the biggest difference between WotC and Paizo: WotC wants you to buy their product, Paizo wants you to play their game.

[@SkyTowerKurogane]

It really is impressive how, the moment tabletop gaming became somewhat mainstream, they IMMEDIATELY shift to the same predatory business practices videogames shifted into.

[@elidiedits]

I really think one of the best things Pf2e has going for it (and a blind spot many 5e GMs have about moving to another game for the first time) is how it just works out of the box. I felt like an unpaid game design intern learning to run 5e, and as a player I’ve found so little consistency between tables bc every GM has a thousand different house rules to “fix” the system. I think a lot of 5e GMs think it’ll take the same amount of homebrew to get any other system to their liking, when chances are there’s a system out there already filling the exact niche they want out of the box-and if not, they probably at least have a much more solid design base to build off from (e.g. Pf2e, PbtA, etc.).

[@kanaric]

The thing that 5e has going for it is it actually has good interesting rules for things like item creation, not everything has to be handwaived by the GM. DND 5e is a dungeon crawl battles game. That's it. In anything else it fails. Spelljammer is a prime example of it, all they did in that was add monsters and describe a setting. No rules for like maintaining, buying, and upgrading your ship like a space game SHOULD have. Everything is handwaived. The fact people still play 5e is baffling. Pathfinder 1e was the choice over 4e dnd and 4e dnd wasn't nearly as bad as 5e.

[@numimio]

THIS!!! it's so odd to me that there's sooo many different house rules for dnd. Pathfinder you could literally go "How does jumping work?" and you can find it easily. I think DnD has rules for jumping but people still do it in different ways??

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

These are great points! (Adding to my pinned comment) A lot of 5e DMs buy 3rd party products to improve their game or make the published adventures functional

[@EternalTotem]

I just started playing pf2e and been wanting to run my own game. I like how all the things I came up with that I thought ‘oh man here we go my gm going to have break out some crazy house rules. I see all the rules in there. Monster customization to make it stronger or weaker super easy. Can’t wait to run my first game

[@davidbowles7281]

As a GM, I don't need it to work out of the box. That's not a feature of TTRPGs until very recently.

[@Laufbursche4u]

WotC best behavior seem to be bullying KZbin creators by sending unneccesary strikes. And searching for an "Principal AI Engineer" now.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

And it will only get worse

[@ScottBaker_]

I'm just waiting for a few more Pinkertons to be deployed.

[@aimwags]

And laying off quality employees.

[@CommissarMitch]

Today I learned Wizards of The Coast does not sell PDF files.

[@cmckee42]

Yeah, many players have them, but they are all pirated. Honestly, it is a terrible business decision. They should have switched over with the release of 4th edition at the latest.

[@JoshNoodleSoup]

They do for older editions of DND.

[@cmckee42]

@@JoshNoodleSoup TIL now all we need is them to release actual 6e to get legal pdfs of 5e

[@LordRenegrade]

@@cmckee42 - No, they still don't sell them either. It's done through a third party for some reason. (Mind you, it being through a third party is probably good for the price - the CRB for 3.5 is like $6 there, it'd be $79.99 plus tax at WotC)

[@SuprousOxide]

But if you look in the right places... I don't have qualms about acquiring pdfs for books I already own. Particularly if the manufacturer won't sell digital copies in a drm free standardized format

[@snowsun538]

Over the weekend I taught my DnD group how to play Pathfinder. In two hours (plus ten minutes) I taught them the rules and played an entire one-shot. This one shot included rollplay, traps, and a moderate combat. It's really not as hard as people think it is.

[@LightningRaven42]

It's mainly because people want to have the same "smooth" experience they have with DnD5e. They forget that they have a ton of practice with DND5e and it takes time to adjust to new games. It's really jarring for more recent TTRPG players who mostly play DND5e and are less prone to switch things up. Once people get used to trying out new games, they inevitably realize that learning a new system is not a huge deal and sessions can be fun even if everyone is still struggling with the system a little bit.

[@mushuable]

Same here, the first game I ran was Pathfinder, being completely new to PF2 myself, and introducing players who for some of them did not even know what a TTRPG was :) everyone had fun

[@agilemind6241]

Since January one of my groups has swapped over the Pathfinder, and it definitely is harder than 5e, and consulting the players since we've gotten used to it the RP-focused players are ok with it but don't love it, the Gamer-brain players prefer it to 5e because there is actual strategy & balance to the combat, but everyone agrees we would not enjoy it without Foundry's support - there's just too many conditions/effects that sometimes stack but sometimes don't that each effect different things. That said, I have 0 interest in spending more money on the new 'edition'? of D&D. There are more changes to the rules that I'm unhappy with than those I am happy with so there is no chance I'm paying money for it.

[@Dezbood]

Paizo doesn’t hate us. Hasbro does. End of discussion. Edit: WotC doesn’t hate us either. They’re beholde(n/r) to higher-ups.

[@EternalTotem]

Paizo sees us as gamers and knows what gamers are. Hasbro sees players as cash cows and want to squeeze the most out of them. Paizo as of now (things can always change in the future) is using a business module which is more gamer friendly. It’s wild seeing how corporations (some) change the economy of a hobby for profit. Cyberpunk was right.😅

[@LeahLuciB]

Tempting as it is for companies that I love, like Paizo, I try to avoid ascribing any motive outside if profit to the company itself. Google used to be the "Do no evil" company until they crushed their competition. Now they're modern-day Google. Paizo is good to us, but Paizo is also not in the position that Hasbro is in. It's a smart strategy for a smaller company like Paizo to play to customer loyalty and deliver more for the money because they would lose trying to compete with Hasbro directly. Paizo can't afford to alienate players like Hasbro can. So they are good to us, but never forget what a company is for: To deliver value to owners/shareholders.

[@thechubbyatheist9913]

​@@LeahLuciB I definitely agree with you on this, something people have to remember is Piazo has a Unionized workplace it's pretty rare employees go through the effort of Unionizing when they're feeling well treated. If anything your argument is a solid point in why D&D needs to have its popularity deflated significantly if we want to have the hobby continue to grow in a healthy direction.

[@DarkBunnyLord]

@@LeahLuciBAh see there’s the catch, Paizo isn’t publicly traded, so it’s goal is not to give value to its shareholders because it doesn’t have public shareholders. Ergo Paizo can do a long term business model where as Hasbro is willing to utterly destroy their brand if it means their next quarter looks up even if long term it kills DnD.

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

Hasbro doesn't hate us. Hasbro loves us like a farmer loves his pigs. They give him meat, offal, gelatin, and only eat swill. This is how Hasbro loves it's players.

[@ChanJENI]

As someone who works in the live-service, freemium games, I would be surprised if the D&D Beyond Master subscription saw a price increase anytime soon. Everything we've seen, everything they've said, points to them aggressively targeting players (and GMs) with aesthetic microtransactions. Dice skins, weapon models, magic VFX and SFX, virtual mini models, colour pallets, etc. They'll want to keep the price of entering the ecosystem low, and monetize on the back end.

[@yarnevk]

You miss that the SRD in CC is what the consider their free entry. Unlike Paizo's PRD it is an intentionally limited subset of the rules with very little player choices. The next step is the monthly subscription to buy the books to get all the rules choices, and it is from that captive audience that they harvest the whales and that will be with the MTX in both their 2D and 3D VTTs. They have the advantage over competing VTTs that they do not have to resell you the digital book - so that leaves the money available for the MTX. They are already doing it with the matrix tiers for early access of the books - the top tier gets you a golden dragon virtual mini. There is a reason the new WOTC hires are video game experienced outside of the TTRPG industry.

[@nathanpeever6500]

Regarding the Paizo subscriptions: You get pdfs of any print products you subscribe for, not just rulebooks.

[@yarnevk]

Something he should have mentioned that Paizo does have a sub but is very different than D&D Beyond as they are for blind physical product lines monthly preorders with free incentive PDF version and an overall site discount. Multiple line subs also get you free PFS/SFS organized play adventure PDFs. For tabletop accessories lines there are far more and better options than WOTC has. Paizo is best thought of like a freemium MMO - you can run and play for free, but if you got money to burn they have what you want to buy. Paizo physical quality and print layouts of the books are much much better than WOTC quality, and the special edition rules are real keepers that will last a long time on your shelf.

[@TheCaniblcat]

My group just had our first foray into Pathfinder Remastered last Saturday. So far we're enjoying it very much.

[@duncbot9000]

Hooray!

[@jonathanfaulkner878]

One very important thing I’ve learned since our group converted to Pathfinder 2E from D&D that kinda devastated me as someone who likes 5E: 5E is fundamentally broken on purpose, so they can sell you all kinds of supplement books to make it work. Even then, you’re going to be spending money on all kinds of third-party material just to spice it up. In Pathfinder 2E, contained within the core rulebooks are so many options that your players will be able to make just about any character they want. There are a plethora of options for you to use as a GM to go for whatever kind of campaign you want. And it’s all in a system that in my opinion is airtight. I was hesitant at first, but I kind of wish we had made the switch sooner.

[@ISpyDeli]

Pathfinder 2e does have a ton of awesome third party content as well, but the great part is that you don't actually need any of it, it's all just "I saw this fantasy or subsystem doesn't exist in official material, so I decided to make it"

[@TheGoreforce]

it's nice that you 95% of the time you don't have to come up with a rule on the fly, to try and satisfy a player wanting to do cool stuff. Generally, most everything that you can do in real life has a role for it in 2nd edition, Moreover, it helps you keep your roles consistent.

[@jediprotector216]

I have spent more on Pathfinder. However, it has more material for players, GMs, and lore nuts.

[@waifusmith4043]

The additional options for builds that comes up with the inclusion of archetypes provides more variety than subclasses. Additionally , this is a big thing.....PAIZO SELLS PDFs. If you want to get digital copies of the remaster books, it'll be about $80? In total, versus about...90? For the 2024 DND. I like that Paizo sells PDFs because we actually can have access to it regardless of our Internet access compared to DND beyond. The fact you can get regular or pocket size for some of the books also shows me that they care about making the material as accessible as possible and not just try to squeeze money out of us. But I am very much someone who wants to give Paizo my money. But I generally like what Paizo has on offer compared to WOTC

[@ISpyDeli]

I've spent a ton on Pathfinder, the difference is, it's all things I chose to buy, not things I *had* to buy.

[@Kiaulen]

Just bought foundry, running the beginner box near the end of the month. Thanks for all your coverage, Ronald.

[@kanaric]

Foundry is really good. I used to use fantasy grounds, the only thing FG does better is I can instantly drag a map in. In Foundry putting new maps in is needlessly complicated. In all other ways it's vastly superior to anything and it being so good IDK why people even play 5e online at all.

[@CathrineMacNiel]

One thing that Paizo also does great are the Foundry VTT Modules. They are superbly crafted and contains everything the Adventure Path has. I have run the Beginner Box Module and it was such a treat. Same with the "recently" released Kingmaker P2 Module. The subsystem for running Settlements and Kingdoms is just SO good!

[@Zhunix]

I appreciate you doing the good work of calling out WotC's bullcrap in a non-inflammatory way, supported by data.

[@AliaOfTheKnife10191]

You literally don't have to spend a dime to play Pathfinder. All the rules are 100% free and easy to access on Archives of Nethys, which I think is much better laid out than Wikidot, my preferred source for rules for 5e. You can make a character sheet with Pathfbuilder and run your character off the sheet, too. You can even adjust for things like conditions and gear very easily. Plus you have all the lore compiled and regularly updated on the PathfiderWiki, which spoilers held back, of course. Pathfinder (and now Starfinder) will continually be games made for everyone.

[@baltosstrupelos302]

Archives of Nethys + Pathbuilder 2e + KZbin videos like yours. Easy Pathfinder win!

[@zeedar412]

I'll be honest: I love pathfinder 2e, but it took me a long time to get fully on board. I'm not saying it's gonna take you that long, I think I approached the game wrong. The problem is that on the surface it looks very much like 5e, but will punish you if you try to play it like 5e. If you engage with Pf on its own terms you will have a great time, but you have to get rid of a lot of habits you probably built up during your time playing 5e.

[@mushuable]

What would be those things you needed to unlearn?

[@zeedar412]

Standing next to an enemy and just swinging at it. Attacking multiple times a turn as a priority. Assuming we'll be fine without a proper frontliner on the team. Just trying things even if my character is shit at it, hoping for a good roll. Critical fails have way more consequences in pf. Not considering that higher hit chance means higher crit chance. Let's just say we had to edge around a few potential tpks before we figured out how pf demands to be played. 😂

[@Chadius]

@@mushuable Do something with your third action besides attack. Even Striding away from the enemy forces them to chase you, wasting an action they would have spent attacking you.

[@timjohnson2533]

Yup. My group and I had a couple learning experiences of characters 'running up to the orc fighters' one by one, only to be annihilated by the 9 actions that those orcs got against them. Learning to work as a group, read initiative, use ranged when you can and smartly close gaps was eye opening. I went easy on everyone simply because this was nearly 40 years of D&D tactics to try and unwire ourselves from. Characters don't start out as front-loaded superheroes, and are expected to get hit (Just hopefully not crit). It took us probably a good 8 sessions to finally ease into the 'team working together' and realize that support roles were invaluable in the system. It's definitely a barrier for some of the old D&D folks I've seen. Even simple things like opening a door using an action was jarring to them.

[@benjamintejada4457]

Agree on this end. I had to "spoil" players by telling them that, generally, most monsters DON'T have attack of opportunity ("reactive strike"), unlike in D&D. So many of my players wasted an action economy by using the step back feature (and sometimes using their second action to move away) because they were afraid of Aoo.

[@kanaric]

Pathfinder is pretty much free. DND not only costs money but it also sucks to run as a DM and if you are anywhere decent at TTRPGs or CRPGS wanting to play a TTRPG the game is also boring. When I played 5e I switched, before PF2E was out, to ADND 2e. ADND 2 was easier to run and more interesting than DND 5e and more fun for the players and I don't even think it's that good of a game that's just how bad 5e is. I had a ton of tools for DMs in that, players had WAY more agency especially regarding magic, and not everything was concentration, on top of it it actually felt like fantasy. Of course now PF2e covers all that but MUCH better and the tools to play it online and in person are better than either game.

[@mogscugg2639]

Thaumaturge alone inspired me to drop dnd

[@amiablereaper]

Yeah when I was running the beginner box I felt sick to death and couldn't do any prep (online game). It still ran REALLY well omce I had foundry set up

[@zarthemad8386]

5e is a worse version of 2e

[@JimCullen]

The MCDM RPG has a name now, btw. "Draw Steel!" (I think they said they haven't yet decided if the exclamation mark will be an official part of the name or not.)

[@poetgriot18]

That is a kinda lame name.... i prefer the name Mcdm rpg...

[@quantus5875]

@@poetgriot18 Agreed what a lame name! Better than MCDM or the DC20 name - both super lame! And while I'm at it DaggerHeart is also a pretty poor name. And to be fair Tales of the Valiant is also a pretty weak name.

[@dungeonmaster6292]

Colville(sp?) Sucks@@poetgriot18

[@drowmetal]

I was always the person that only bought the 3 core books from D&D and that was it. Anything else I'd just find online and never spend a single coin more. With PF2E I don't really need to spent a single penny since I do use a laptop to help me run my games and all the content is available for free. That said, this is the RPG that I've bought most books, I've about 7 or 8 of them. But not because I felt I needed or was forced to: I bought them because Paizo made me feel good about it so I thought it would only be fair to purchase them, and my players love them. But I never felt the need of having them in-game, whenever I need an answer from a book a quick search and I find it online for free.

[@Brian-uq6jm]

I have the most PF1 books out of all the games I have 😂. I've only started playing 2E this year, but my collection is growing quick. I just like throwing money at them and feeling good at the same time.

[@KaminoZan]

Wait... is it free to use FoundryVTT if I'm just going to be a player? I didn't have to buy it? Also, "Passion of the Passions"? LMAO! Yeah, that sounds like it could have been one of the telenovelas my great-grandmother used to watch. I never understood the plots, but g-ma would translate for me, and I loved the brighter colors of the sets and clothes worn by the characters, so much better than the soaps.

[@Kiaulen]

Yes! I just bought foundry. It's $50 to get a server you can run or buy hosting for, but players just connect to :30000 with a web browser. It's a really great pricing model

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yes, it's free for the players. The GM needs to find a way to host the games, either on their own local drive or (what I use) a subscription cloud service.

[@LightningRaven42]

Yes, the GM just sends a link and everyone can access it in full. PF2e's support in that VTT is STELLAR. They do it voluntarily and offer a lot help. My group has no trouble running PF2e on tabletop, but FoundryVTT is always a highlight in our sessions.

[@commenter1430]

Technically, anyone could gm, but unless you are hosting using a servi e provider its not very feasible for the gm not to own the product.

[@Tony_Goat]

In fact, the GM might not even need to buy it if a friend lets them borrow an instance. Its licensing is one license per third party accessible hosted server. So if you have multiple game masters, they can share a single instance.

[@EternalTotem]

Thanks for a good breakdown for people. As a brand new player to pathfinder I agree with all of this. I had been playing D&D since 3rd edition. Not going into any edition I spend over $500+ in just 5e alone. As you stated the digital things with ddb is bad. Is as if I lost all that as I have no way of having it as a pdf. With pathfinder I personally have spend only $20ish dollars. Everything is online free. It has been very rewarding. The book quality on paizo are way better than D&D. The hardcopy books are sturdier than the softcover from what I see my friends using in the last 8ish months. Great video, appreciate all your fine work😊

[@PaweMateuszBytner]

You mentioned it somewhat in the video and you other videos, we said it thousand times in our community, but it can't be stressed enough that the matter of complexity of PF2 vs DnD5 isn't really in favor of the latter. The shortest we can sum it up is that PF2 has meaningful complexity while DnD5 has a mess. Basic rules, by which I mean things like how d20 checks work, how we get out numbers for those checks, the combat encounter routine, etc - all those are simpler in PF2. Action economy is the most prominent example - while DnD5 attempted to simplify the economy from 3e, the positive impact was minimal and they made casting spells more confusing at the same time. In 3.5 if I had any means of casting two spells in the same round, like quickening one of them or just having swift-action spell in the first place, there was absolutely no problem with that. So while the whole boilerplate involved (spell DCs calculation, quickened spell level adjustment, etc) was more complex, the most basic part of my interaction with the game of choosing my action in the heat of the battle was unhampered. In term of combat action economy rule sets alone, between PF2, DnD5, DnD4 and DnD3, 5th edition barely wins only against the 3rd. For D20 checks in PF2 it goes like this: roll d20, add your proficiency and occasional modifiers (which for the most part are constant throughout the encounter), compare with the target to find your degree of success. On 1 or 20 move your result one step, if you have some specific abilities on higher levels those also might adjust the result by not allowing critfails or autorcriting successes. Action you took tells you what to do on each result, with most of them being attacks or basic saves which work all the same. Well, you can't exactly say it is nothing to remember, but the routine is regular. And it is not really more complex than DnD5, which also has proficiency, modifiers and crits, but the framework isn't as defined and the complexity added in PF2 makes it more predictable and gives designers more opportunities to make cool things within the established framework. Proficiency bonus is straightforward character lvl + 2 per rank, with 0 or bare lvl with certain perks for untrained character. Is it more complex than character lvl div 5 + 2, summed up into a table inflating your book volume? Not really. But it offers something more anyway, making mundane encounters trivial, all things are more predictable and proficiency ranks are utilized as prerequisites for example. Focus points unifying most of the limited-use spell-like class powers within one system is a great improvement over previous edition and the competition. Multiclassing is... different. While 3e/5e system of getting levels in a class has its charms, it has balance issues that those systems try to alleviate via additional rules anyway. PF2 incorporates multiclassing within archetype system. If you engage with the game to the point you want to try multiclassing, neither of this systems should be above you. Pathfinder requires you to choose more things from the start when you create or level up your character, expanding your options exponentially with each new book. That's the moment where it is actually measurably heavier, but it is still meaningful complexity and not just some noise. After you choose your feats and subclasses, which should be less than 1% of your game, you are left with robust system that is not hard to play at all

[@theenoogie]

My group has agreed to only buy 5e products second hand or new if written 3rd party. We have Adventures in Rokugan to play with 5e, but we’ve also bought into PF2e and been playing in that and…. It’s fresh and easy and everyone is enjoying it more than 5e. It even brought back the attention and engagement of a couple of my players that disconnect from the game more easily. Beyond that, learning a new edition of D&D is just as much a task as learning a new system. If not pathfinder, do yourself and the world some good and find a different game from D&D.

[@DavidAndrews-eb7gm]

Make life easy on your GM and save some cash by playing 2014 PHB only for player characters.

[@theenoogie]

@@DavidAndrews-eb7gm A solid idea for sure! I have some power gamers in my group and to put that down when we made the transition to PF2e, I ruled it so we can only use the core rules for character creation. Made it easier on me and the players and encouraged them to build with what we’ve got rather than maybe copying some overpowered build they found online. I’m cool with power gaming, it’s a valid style of play, sometimes I play those characters also, but to me it was much easier to learn a new system having the group begin at the start.

[@DavidAndrews-eb7gm]

Agree with the power gaming being OK and I may be a little guilty of it myself from time to time (constantly) but there has to be boundaries and limits and ceilings to basic PC mechanics. There’s still room for roleplay and creativity and, at times, clever rules exploits. When a player comes to the table with their WotC endorsed “Rigormortan’s Puffery of Latent Refundancy” and insists on playing the new Ignoble Pegasus race that shoots lasers out of its eyes as a core ability or the new Liquorice Cleric class that has proficiency in rocket launchers and starts the game with a self-propelled flame tank as a pet then the game descends into a main character syndrome, rules lawyering, everything looks like a nail mess.

[@theenoogie]

@@DavidAndrews-eb7gm someone once said for a Star Wars TTRPG game that “everyone plays a Jedi, or nobody plays a Jedi” and that’s where Power gamed characters sit in my mind. If one player wants to play the Pegasus licorice cleric that can pump out 100damage a round at 2nd level, then everyone at the table needs to be able to do that for it to be fun for everyone. It feels bad for everyone when the built-for-fun barbarian hit for 10 damage and then the Jedi goes “let me solo her” and hits for 100 damage. Everyone is a Jedi, or nobody is a Jedi.

[@DavidAndrews-eb7gm]

That’s a beautifully succinct way of expressing the concept.

[@Minandreas213]

This is a great video and one of the things that always blows the mind of 5E players I see that I actually get to try out P2. They cannot wrap their brain around Archives of Nethys and Pathbuilder and the idea that they can play the game, with maximum convenience, completely free and legally.

[@juanabreu3619]

I live in a country where it's pretty much impossible to buy rpg books, so when trying to play dnd we would need to jump hoops to even just look at the options available in english, much less our native language, so when I spoke about how all rules are available on nethys, or how pathbuilder has all the options for every book for free, it was like a godsend

[@malmasterson3890]

You can play DnD completely free and legally too. There are apps & 99% of the content is easy to access since DnD is the most popular system. The difference is simply that Paizo encourages it and supports these ventures. Hasbro does not.

[@lunasophia9002]

Okay, I just... I cannot warn people enough about "recurrent spending". Ronald is right to compare this to video game preorders and it doesn't stop there. All the awful psychologically manipulative microtransactions you see--in everything from mobile games to the latest big "AAA" title--is all based on this. There are presentations that CEOs of companies like EA have given about "turning players into payers". This is BAD. This is only the beginning and it's going to get so, so much worse.

[@LiannaBabeli]

Unfortunately, you are quite correct. As an actual independent game developer and an executive in said studio, they do run these seminars and run their businesses like the bloody timeshare scams all over the world.

[@lunasophia9002]

@@LiannaBabeli Yup. Been following Steph Sterling for years and they've covered all of this in excruciating detail. btw have you published / released any games? :)

[@LiannaBabeli]

@@lunasophia9002 Not quite yet. We're still working on several projects, though we're hoping to get at least one done this year. We also have other multimedia projects that we might be able to release this year.

[@norcalbowhunter3264]

You don’t have to buy the new edition of D&D. Like people still play 3.5 edition, I’m sure a lot of players who got into 5e will be hesitant to cross over into the newer edition. That said, you do have to deal with WoTC cutting off support for 5e though, which I’m assuming they will do in an effort to drive people to the new edition. But with all the third part companies out there (probably why they tried to kill the ogl) this isn’t that big of a concern. Still though, pf2e is much better and worth the jump even if you are thinking about sticking to 5e. Pf2e runs so much like a more flushed out 5e that it surprises me that people want to condemn it for being hard to switch too. Sure the rules are different but once they click, and they will click, they CLICK. That was my journey at least.

[@yarnevk]

Since the vast majority of players in 5e use D&D Beyond subs and do not know how to play without, I guarantee that D&D2014 rules will get sunset eventually in favor of D&D2024 and they will be forced to upgrade to new books. WOTC already did that when the D&D5e midcycle expansion/revision rule books came out. They killed the D&D4e digital compendium with all the monthly errata (they ran that game like it was an MMO with monthly updates) once 5e was well underway and had D&DB. They will blame it on 'unavoidable' IT problems and claim the prior edition is a minority player because the new system is so good everyone else already switched. This is not a prediction it is past history, and history repeats itself.

[@LiannaBabeli]

@@yarnevk Especially when it comes to WotC and Hasbro management style.

[@TheGoreforce]

You never recruited for a whole new table, in your life likely. As time goes on, and if they actually manage to release a 3D VTT that looks as good as BG3. These players are going to want to play that over anything else. Farther, there will be a growing culture that believes a player DM would be an adversarial experience, and as that culture grows player DMs would be looked at as needless, at best, and at worse destructive to their experience. Not everyone is great at pulling off completely different personalities. AI is going to be able to do that.

[@LiannaBabeli]

@@TheGoreforce it is going to take away from traditional tables for sure, but it depends entirely on the VTT experience. If WOTC creates a decent experience, it could create the effect you are talking about.

[@TheGoreforce]

@@LiannaBabeli yeah, that's all I am talking about, because they don't want to make it compatible with all other systems the indie 3D VTT will have a slight edge, but if they are going to make it play as fluidly as Baldurs gate 3, it's going to be hard to recruit. Hopefully they aren't successful and it just shows the indie 3d VTTs what not to do.

[@MrMagyar5]

Where would I go to start finding players and GM's for PF2e? I am considering breaking into this for the future.

[@AKA_Kira]

There are a few places, I would check startplaying or Demiplane groups (which is a character builder that Ronald didn't mention, but it's more comparable to DDB)

[@MrMagyar5]

@@AKA_Kira Thank you!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Pathfinder has a Discord with AMA channels, and my Discord has a drop-in free organized play system "Endless Tale Tavern"

[@MrMagyar5]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Whoot! I will jump in over the next couple of weeks and explore!

[@queenannsrevenge100]

If you’ve seen NoNat’s recent video about their open AI Management Engineer, the implication is that they intend to investigate AI to not only use AI art, but AI for GAME DESIGN. They are headed down a terrible path, and I feel very bad for them as well as fans. They’re too hot to kill the golden goose to see where the gold eggs are coming from.

[@alexsolomon7991]

I for one am perfectly happy sitting on my archive of D&D 3.0 and Pathfinder 1e books. The art is gorgeous the fluff is entertaining and the rules give the GM all the tools he needs while still allowing players the agency to create the characters and skills that they want to.

[@scottmyers909]

Paizo supports (or at least approves of) Archives of Nethys. It is such a great free resource to look up rules, abilities, feats, monsters, items, etc.

[@TheGoreforce]

it's litterally on their website.

[@ToesToJesus]

Yep, I'm not going to go to VTT, rent your books, pay to play, micro-transactions. I have already invested in other systems, including Pathfinder 2.5, 2024 core. I am going to be starting a Kobold Press/Zobeck campaign, which is 5e rules, but has nothing at all to do with WoTC and the Vanilla Coast of Faerun!

[@TonganJedi]

My group plays at the table with FoundryVTT (one-time cost) and real dice. The hybrid play is great.

[@Testperson001]

I bought the humble bundle first, then an adventure...and then like every other missing rulebook and token bundle for the vtt just cause I could and wanted to support paizo after wotc, cost me like 500 USD, but I now really have all rule pdfs and like 2 adventures

[@MrReaperHand]

I would also mention to 5e players, saves have always been 3. 5e was the first "edition" of D&D to have 6 saves tied to each attribute.

[@Aliktren]

I set up pf2e in foundry this week, usually use 5e, so easy. Do it!

[@StephenHutchison]

I use Pathbuilder 2e and I have had no problem accessing dual archetypes, free dedication, etc. without paying money. If I wanted to create and build a world that could run via their interface, it would cost me a small fee. This is basically a VTT without the flashy visuals, which could be done on another platform. When I saw Pathfinder at a game con a decade or so in the past, I did not love it. When I was dragged to P2e by my weekly game group, it was mostly "some character classes are hard" and "the action economy is inflexible" ... but once I managed those, it was SO MUCH EASIER than the 5E stuff. It was UNLEARNING CURVE rather than Learning Curve for me.

[@TheGoreforce]

yeah, it's only some technicals that are different they based it off of pathfinder 1 which was based on DnD 3.5 to avoid the gamified 4e, which for some reason, WOTC wants to regamify 5e. I fear for all these indy developers being suckered into making a 5.5E system. all of the mess of 5e is on fragrant display with Balders Gate 3, they made the best game they could with the roleset, and still, because of the hyper player favorered system, a level 12 if in the right conditions can one round a most level 20 monsters. Provided the DM actually rewarded the players correctly all the way up to level 12. Like Balders gate did, and even then, there is very few options for your party in terms of gear.

[@nicolepolivka3255]

I have been playing and running PF for quite a while, started in first edition, now fully into PF2e, even with the Remaster. I have subscribed to Paizo for a long time, and they are loyal to their subscribers. I even got grandfathered in when they changed out subscriptions worked. I had a delay with my Player Core 2 hardcopy, but still got the PDF actually a day early and was able to share it with my players, 3 of them who have to respect their characters from Legacy PF2e to Remaster PF2e. I'm running 3 campaigns, two are Adventure Paths (which are very good, but can be brutal) and one homebrew (I know, I'm crazy). Having the blend of Legacy and Remaster characters and monsters hasn't stopped me and hasn't thrown the balance off either. My players are all having fun and using Archives of Nethys has been a wonderful free boon to my newer players who then have the OPTION of buying hard copies if they want it and can afford to, while I, as the GM love to have hard copies and thus subscribe to Paizo, and also provide PDFs when they are needed (AoN staff apparently have been going through it, y'all, so they're a bit behind). Plus, the people that work there love working there, love playing and if anyone ever has a chance to meet them at a convention should do it. I used to go to PaizoCon and hang out with these folks and they are a ton of fun. When I meet new people and say I play TTRPGs, I do mention D&D but only because that's the big name. If they turn out to know their systems, I always narrow down to say I play Pathfinder, though I have also tried and love other systems as well. Now to get my groups to want to play them, too.

[@koschkathedeathless]

Another thing about Sunk Cost is that your DnD books and rules don't have to be totally lost in your games moving forward. The game is yours at your table. So, when I play DnD 5e I include things from Pathfinder/PbTA like the 4 degrees of success or, from pathfinder 1/dnd 3/4 like a little bit more granular of an action economy. And when I play Pathfinder 2e I include rules I like from DnD 5e, like simplifying some checks with advantage/disadvantage. As long as the people you're playing with understand the rules you're using, it doesn't really matter what the book says. If you really like something from another game, just take it. I also take my system for the economy and have ported a Willpower mechanic from Storyteller games like Vampire the Masquerade. Make the game your own, and then the old books you bought don't even have to be considered lost. A major upside to me is that PF2e is so much easier to homebrew. I can just make a couple of feats here or there. New Subclasses are a bit easier to make because there are discrete fairly easily comparable parts. Backgrounds are just an ability boost, a skill and a skill feat.

[@TheGoreforce]

the problem is they are trying to get rid of the purpose of a DM in 5.5, by the time they release their 3D VTT, and you ask your players that you want to DM, they will likely try to convince you to be a player, they are taking out a lot of the social aspects of DnD. You wanting to be the dungeon master will be portrayed as wanting to fight the players rather than wanting to make a better game than the pre-coded modules that you would surely be able to buy. Your players sure are yours and they are your friends, and they've been playing with you for a long time. Though, the problem is, in 5 years someone saying let's play DnD it will be on their proprietary VTT because they have the money to make an amazing VTT that other companies don't have the luxury, it's the same, the very same issue that we have now, people want to play DnD because it's what they know, and they are afraid of any other ruleset. This will make it even harder because as time progresses, the need for Dms will deminish, and you will absolutely not be able to compete with a full AI integrated experience, especially if they use a multi-modal system were just like the video game versions of pathfinder, be able to completely change everything about how it's played. and even be able to give the thing a personality. They are turning DnD into a video game that happens to have rules outside the game. Most players if you decide to host any RPG, they will question why it's not going to be on the easiest system to use.

[@koschkathedeathless]

I will not be using the proprietary vtt, and have not played a game of vanilla 5e. Can I interest you in the Secret World TTRPG? It's a modified version of 5e to be about conspiracies and modern, urban fantasy Selling points: it a lot of fun Downsides: its bad

[@numimio]

Pathbuilder is weird because you literally have to buy it to gain access to the companion section which is literally the entirety of summoner.

[@CommissarMitch]

While yes that is wierd to me it did not really matter because getting it for the entire play group for me was like a year worth of DnDBeyond.

[@nopeguy9841]

Uh, You only need to buy to use it and the rest leave in Nethys.

[@Gorpfield]

yeah i ended up eating the cost and sharing my account with the whole table

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Affects some players yes: I'll add to my pinned comment.

[@CommissarMitch]

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Want to add as well that it Premium is required for Optional rules, such as Gradual Progression and Free Archetypes. So if you wanna play with those as a GM at least one person need to fork over the cost.

[@duncbot9000]

OMG it's called Pasion de las Pasiones! I've been wondering what that book is for months

[@quark12000]

Wish you had given a breakdown of Pathfinder Nexus vs. D&D Beyond.

[@yarnevk]

Same person behind both using the same biz model of selling web readable digital books - the only difference is Nexus is expanded to other RPG systems instead of D&D. You should be aware that Nexus just got taken over by Roll20 parent company, and said founder left to join Fantasy Grounds VTT in protest of Nexus future direction. PF2e Nexus might sell to expats used to D&D Beyond, but Paizo has a far less restrictive license that gives free access to all the rules in every book - not just a subset. That means you need to look at Nexus for the paid feature set, rather than looking at it as the only way to get rules access. Between aonprd which is the official rules archive and pathbuilder which is free for character building (donations get extra feature) you have to ask are the same features done better in Nexus and worth paying for. Nexus does discount the Paizo PDF version of the book so you can own both the portable and proprietary digital versions.

[@Stephen-Fox]

This is a wider question than Pathfinder, or D&D vs Pathfinder, but do you have opinions on the recently announced discord integration of Roll 20? Your comments about the cost of running games via VTTs caused me to think of it. While you covered cost compared to Pathfinder, D&D being on the crunchier end also means it costs more than most TTRPGs, particularly for GMs. (Pathfinder, also, but only if you want the books). Most non-D&D TTRPGs manage to fit all their core rules - player, GM, and often a bestiary as well - into a single book. Sometimes providing an adventure within that book. These books are usually thinner than any of D&D's core books. Outside of games that got their design cues from D&D, the most core books I recall seeing, at least over the past 20 years or so, is 2 - GM and Player. Even if the core books are a little bit more expensive than D&D's (which is rare, and usually they're available as PDFs for cheaper), you - or at least the GM - needs to buy less, and having the GM rules in the core book IMO makes the idea of running the system less intimidating - You already have everything you need to run the game if you've previously just been playing it. But - On learning - Another important thing to remember is that if D&D was your first TTRPG? You were also learning more general skills around TTRPGs in whatever medium you were playing it in (and possibly roleplay generally if you hadn't previously been doing freeform roleplay in that same medium), many of which are applicable to any game. Even learning another TTRPG just as crunchy as D&D is going to be easier than learning D&D, because you already have the non-system based stuff under your belt (Although some things that if you've only played one game might appear non-system based is going to be specific). And... Many of these games have lessons that are applicable to your D&D games that you're going to learn faster by playing wider. They'll expose you to tools and techniques that can be used to enhance your D&D games if you want to keep playing D&D.

[@lyracian]

For both games running CORE Only is a great way to help cut down on cost. While PF2 Rules are free online, personally I do not find AoN very easy to read. Useful for a quick reference but the PDF and/or physical book is much better. The cheaper paperback versions are also nice to have for playing at the table. As a player I will likely get a physical copy of D&D 5.24 PHB. I do not plan to get anything else and since I play D&D in person, not virtually, none of those extra costs matter. DND Beyond is nice for character tracking but I shall not be paying for duplicate access I will just go back to using a PDF character sheet or even (shock) writing on note paper! As a GM I have already moved over to running PF2, but have also backed DC20 as that may work better with my Saturday night group.

[@cloudsora]

Foundry also has occasional sales, rare as they may be like anniversary or maybe black friday and stuff but it's $40 dollars then as well for people who don't know. Also... Paizo throws Humble Bundles out pretty regularly.

[@victorappleton1906]

To throw in my own price anecdote, my group dropped 5e during the OGL debacle - we tried out some other systems (mainly Savage Worlds) but landed on PF2e, to my delight. We also made the switch from Roll20 to Foundry during that time. Previously, we had subscriptions to both DnDBeyond and Roll20 for character-building and running, respectively (they were joined by the Beyond20 plugin). We would also be sure to by a la carte pretty much all the new player options, which was less expensive than buying whole books but not free (and also no longer possible). Now, the only thing we bought was Foundry, as a one-time purchase. Everything else has been strictly to support Paizo because I love the system. I self-host Foundry, so no fees there, and we’ll just pop it open whenever someone wants to use it, so no Pathbuilder fee either.

[@Wukong330]

I buy the books to support paizo. I love the system want paizo to thrive.

[@rainmceachern7156]

hi, I was curious about the term "splatbooks." I think I understand what the term means (an expansion book that adds character options) but I don't really understand why they're called that

[@LiannaBabeli]

It comes from an old school methodology of adding 'flavour', e.g. splat, e.g. splash of flavour, to a system. They are also known as sidebooks, expansions, or option books.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

It's an interesting story ("splat" was a programmer term for asterisk, and expansion books were briefly called "*books" before splatbook caught on): rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/48658/origin-of-the-term-splat-book

[@farisca0]

I guess the issue is still the same, no matter what system you like (or want to try): finding decent people to play with. This especially true for "smaller" systems.

[@crankysmurf]

Remember you don't need WotC to play D&D. There are plenty of third party publishers and older edition books to satisfy your D&D needs.

[@Mordaedil]

Saving throw note, I wonder if it helps pointing out that reflex, fortitude and will saves were standard before 5e.

[@felixheitzer2262]

On the good behaviour : WotC did by the way issue a copyright strike to a creator who got a preview of the players handbook.

[@Seer_Xaeo]

The Beginner Box is also updated to the remaster version, which is great because it was hard to find it in stores! Also, Dawnsbury Days is a great game!

[@sammay5944]

PF2e actually gives regular new content for both players and GMs. The classes can be built in multiple ways, unlike DnD 5e in which two fighters, for example, more or less, play the same way. The game works out of the box for GMs and well I'm not happy with the shit HASBRO/WotC is pulling.

[@firebornliger]

An edition change is probably the easiest time to get people to try new systems. Which is probably why WotC/Hasbro are trying so hard to say it isn't an edition change. My group has had everyone in the GM seat at one point, and so, we're a little more open to new systems. We just did a one shot in a system called Outgunned that was fairly light, and aimed to be a table-top version of 80s Action Movies. They're a nice change of pace, and it was a fun session.

[@quantus5875]

Nice video! Yes, one of the biggest advantages in my opinion from a cost perspective are 1) The ability to purchase PDFs for Pathfinder, and 2) The ability to use those PDFs with that free PF module for Foundry. Wish Paizo had decided to only do 3 core books (instead of 4 core books), i.e. Player Core 1, Player Core 2, and GM Core 1. Not really sure why they did a GM Core 2 book -- fine to do it but call it something else, i.e. don't call it a "Core" book.

[@summonercat]

When first getting into D&D, it felt like it cost so much and additional fees if you happened to buy the product "wrong" (i.e. not from D&D Beyond or specific VTTs). I'm really glad other TTRPGs are not like this.

[@pr3tend3r-01]

Foundry is free after initial cost but you have to have your computer on for others to connect and edit their characters but you can pay for a server so they have access but it's not necessary

[@UbiquitousX1]

In the words of the immortal Charlie XCX. "I just wanna go back, back to edition 3.5”

[@Laufbursche4u]

Why are you adding the foundry costs only to PF2e? I start using Foundry as a VTT only for DnD. I had to pay the 50$. (Or bedder: As I bought Fountry, I bought it for DnD. But with their massive range of TTRPGs I changed my mind.) All pf2e rulebooks are integrated in Foundry. Like in the archives. So my minimum costs, for Pathfinder, if I don't count Foundry in, bc I use it for both systems, and with all rulebooks/subclasses/feats/monsters: 0$.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Because the cheaper way to get ALL rules content for PF2 in the long run is to pay $50 one time for Foundry, and for D&D the cheapest way is to buy the books piecemeal for a VTT that doesn't have an upfront cost. Of course, the quality of the experience is worse on a free Roll20 account than in Foundry... I just wanted to excise the cost of the VTT out, and focus only on accessing each system's BOOKS, where the difference is strongest

[@Laufbursche4u]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I disagree, sorry. The cheapest way to get all the rules is to go to Roll20 and, bc you are already online, use the Archives of Nethys. Foundry has more quality, but not all the rules.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@Laufbursche4u I think most people value being able to "plop" options into their character sheets in a VTT

[@Laufbursche4u]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG You got a point. Ok, thx for answering. I really appreciate that.

[@Chadius]

Wow, I still remember when D&D 3rd edition costs $90 to get the PHB, DMG and MM. And they used to let DriveThru RPG sell the PDF copies!

[@bificommander7472]

The Monetization Designer job listing is a good warning. "We're willing to pay 100-150k a year for someone to dream up more ways for our players to pay up."

[@keithpark2044]

You mention the Beginner’s Box as a great starting point and I agree but having just run my players through it I have to say it is in dire need of some updating. It is using stuff from before the first errata of the CRB. If some new GM is using the Beginner’s Box as the sole source for introducing themselves and their players to Pathfinder 2e they will be in for a big surprise as the Remastered rules have many differences to the Beginner’s Box. I think when you recommend the Beginner’s Box you should be mentioning this caveat. Someone with some influence should be starting a campaign to update the Beginner’s Box as it is a great resource to bring new players into Pf2e.

[@daniellemurnett2534]

Isn't there a Remastered version? That's the one currently advertised on the store page, and the digital version comes with PDFs for both the new and old versions. Or is it still not especially updated, all things considered?

[@eamk887]

There already exists a remastered version of the Beginner's Box, you should have received a PDF version of it for free if you already owned the old PDF version. It's pretty cool, for example *SPOILERS* the green dragon at the end has been changed to a horned dragon, a new dragon from the new Monster Core.

[@zyronos8292]

I bought Shadowdark at Gencon which I am very happy with. Also enjoy Dragonbane and Break!!. And if I want to run a scifi setting I have Traveller for that haha

[@swiftigoth]

I jumped ship from WotC when they went from 3.5 to 4e - and 5e was so dumbed-down ("streamlined") there was no way any of us in my gaming group was gonna get back to D&D.... I am still stuck on Pathfinder 1e, but might get into PF2e soon. I can say that both Pathfinder 1e and 2e have AWESOME support in Foundry VTT.

[@Brian-uq6jm]

I'm also a huge fan of PF1E. I'm playing 2E atm, but I'd switch over to PF1E in a heartbeat.

[@_AutoCoder]

For 5E peeps: Stand up a PC or server at home, setup DNS and free SSL, buy Foundry for a one time $50, install DDB importer and import everything, kill DDB. Zero recurring monthly and infinite storage. It's awesome. My only concern is the 5E system in Foundry just made a deal w WOTC - so that could get weird. But you don't have to upgrade. Also, 3.5E (a better system) is avail for Foundry - that's my preferred fallback if\when they do something.

[@chavesa5]

I don't want to hate on D&D or WotC but they make it really hard not to

[@DukeAstoreth]

ShadowDark looks interesting

[@Nastara]

I haven’t played it but the greater RPG community loves the game and it does look fun and easy to play.

[@LightningRaven42]

It blends some modern ideas with old concepts. I found it blends quite well for those who want something lighter on the rules and more narrative in combat.

[@nekrosmagos519]

after playing more than 100 sessions with more than one DM, I find that the game is good only for conventions and maybe one shots. For long term campaigns its one of the most boring game I have ever play. The hype of this game I really believe it will calm down soon. Just let people play it for more than 20 sessions.

[@Blade12113]

So I need to say something... that EA executive quote is NOT what he was saying. It's 1 part removed from the context. What he was saying was "If video game streaming services are to become the main thing that needs to happen is gamers need to be comfortable with not owning games." Comparing it to what happened with dvds to streaming. An in order for Y to hapoen X must happen first.

[@sotech10]

So far, after started playing and gming pf2e, $50 lifetime license for foundry, $50 (anually) for forge, and... that's it

[@waragh]

I like pathfinder, because it is easy to find and order pdf. i live in sweden.

[@jonburan6090]

So, If I stuck to the basic set my mother bought us for Christmas in 1980, my total cost commitment would be more favorable than switching to Pathfinder 44 years later? Oh Damn! Sounds like the RPG lawyer has a spurious argument. Getting in on the ground floor has its benefits.

[@DawidSikora]

It's baffling to me that people would play 5e out of their free will

[@chrislee8970]

The unknown is a scary thing, some people need more adventure in their lives.

[@justicar5]

It's baffling to me that people enjoy the super restrictive maths and badwrongfun attitude of pf2e.

[@zarthemad8386]

@@justicar5 this is why 3.5/pf1e are kings

[@justicar5]

@@zarthemad8386 fair

[@mineflameblade8788]

I really want to get Into Pathfinder 2e. But one thing you're probably not factored in is needing a pc to play it since 99% of games happen on foundry.

[@swiftigoth]

You might be able to play via a laptop - one of my players has a "potato" lap top, and foundry lets you alter the frame rate settings, and i upload maps without any effects, and it's doable. If I.R.L., maybe check out local hobby/gaming shops that allow people to play (most for free, especially gamer cafe types that make money because people buy food and drink) and they often have a "house" copy of basic rules and others bring books to play. You probably have already done this, but if not - that's a great way to get into it.

[@Drasai]

Never come across the term “splatbook” before. Does this just refer to all the extra rulebooks, like Rage of Elements or Call of the Wild?

[@bobroberts2581]

PFSRD for the win my dude. 90% of all the info you’d oils need outside of specific campaign setting particulars. Races/classes/etc from the settings? Fair game.

[@nathanielcarlson6683]

Watching this video right after WotC's DnD Beyond announcement that they're removing content usable in character creation. Turns out they were NOT on their best behavior.

[@EmilyGamerGirl]

Companies that think we should get used to not owning games, should get used to being bankrupt. Absolutely insane practice, and in many instances, SHOULD be straight-up illegal (there are several instances which, to anyone with any common sense, is BLATANT THEFT. If the law actually were just at all, the CEO/top people of these companies would be in fucking JAIL.)

[@Subject_Keter]

Just steal them, paper and pen cost little. Actually getting a backbone big coster. 😂

[@ISpyDeli]

I stand by my statement that the **only** reason DnD5e is as popular as it is is because it has brand recognition. It's the one most people know, and so it's how most people start. I can guarantee that most 5e players would be much happier playing other games instead of trying to cram other game concepts into 5e.

[@LeahLuciB]

I have the Kingmaker 2e book, and I paid for Foundry versin of Kingmaker. Did I do something wrong?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

No, you only get the PDF for free with a physical book if something is part of a Paizo subscription (I don't think Kingmaker ever was)

[@parttimehero8640]

I was a 5e DM for years. I was never happy with the system and publisher. After the flop of Spelljammer and the OGL I left. I'm happy with Pathfinder 2e it fits my group way better then 5e. In addition I looked into tales of the loop, call of Cthulhu and Warhammer. I also checked Daggerheart und MCDM. I feel like someone how was only played Skyrim and now has been shown Baldurs Gate 3, Elden Ring and Dragon Age origins.

[@theprofessional5656]

22:15 where is this "D&D college" you speak of? :)

[@CakeDayZ]

Are you interested or considering doing more in depth analysis of those other rpgs like MCDM (name recently revealed as Draw Steel), Daggerheart, or DC20? If so would it be during their development or after full release? I personally have started running a homebrew Daggerheart campaign and backed the kickstarter for DC20.

[@simpu83]

The only pf2e-related purchase I've made is for foundry, and tbh, I don't think I need anything else dual class? foundry has a module for that animal companion? foundry has a module for that too arts? I don't stream my games, so i can just get it off the internet servers? just self host, it's pretty lightweight/easy on the bandwidth if you're careful

[@garrickstangle5996]

Basic Fantasy has always been free in PDF, and cheap if you want hardcopy. If you can't have fun with 4 races and 4 classes, having 20 of each is not going to help you.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

... I use both systems without paying a penny. May be my inner russian pirate speaking but i never considered buying dnd books or using dnd beyond. I created account for a playtest and i got it. That's all.

[@timothycardoza9187]

Interesting choice to require the Master Tier subscription for dnd. I spent $0 for my first two years of playing dnd on dnd beyond...

[@nabmcfeegle]

As someone who loves Pf2e and prefers to it to other fantasy systems, I would challenge the initial statement that you will have to pay to continue playing. You can play anything you own for free, though I do understand that was more a point about remaining current. RPGs don't die unless their books are lost. You never have to stay 'current', but more people should try other systems (including Pf2e)

[@PichulRixth]

Missed opportunity for a rules light Shadowdark

[@TheGreatDanish]

Pathdinder is basically free with Archive of Nethys.

[@leandersearle5094]

For the time cost, I think D&D is the only modern RPG that hasn't learned from D&D's failures on learnability and legibility. The system that shall not be mentioned was a *direct* response to D&D being an absolute mess, and most RPGs after it also took that lesson to heart.

[@cmckee42]

9:55 Fantasy Flight Games makes table top roleplaying games and is owned by Asmodee, which is owned by Embracer Group, which is not just a public company, but is bigger than Hasbro, so WOTC is not the only one owned by a reasonably big company. That being said, FFG does not have enough rpg market share to act like the 800 pound gorilla in the industry that WotC is.

[@LiannaBabeli]

Embracer Group also doesn't really get hands on internally with that company. FFG practically runs itself and EMG has little business decisions with them.

[@cmckee42]

@@LiannaBabeli oh definitely. My point was merely that WotC is not the only RPG publisher whose parent company is a multi-billion dollar corporation. But, yes, FFG definitely has much more hands off owners.

[@HorizonOfHope]

Shadowdark RPG is absolutely awesome. Just putting it out there. The whole thing in a single bound volume.

[@jean-phi1229]

I think microtransactions have to be added. With the Hasbro VTT, I suppose you will have to buy a lot of things to be able to play as you want...

[@bulletflight]

WotC summoned the Pinkertons. Paizo did not.

[@DarkadeTV]

After two years trying I just got into pathfinder, and the way I did it was buying the book. For me the zero money approach of going with AoN/pathbuilder didn't worked at all, the game was unapproachable with just those resources. it seemed too big, too complex, and I think it's because the pure mechanics are decontextualized from their intention in those sites. Maybe they are enough if you know someone to guide you, but it wasn't for me coming from the "indie scene" and not knowing anybody. It's amazing that these resources exist but pathfinder, more than any other game, highlights for me that games are not their mechanics. Now I'm looking forward to playing pf for the first time and even running it

[@Subject_Keter]

That my issue. It makes sense from rules lawyer pov but pop them out of it... How exactly are we appose to handle this? You cant just hand over a Minecraft tech mod with no notes or Linux or a cooking table worth of stuff abd say "on you go"

[@Brian-uq6jm]

I had been playing PF1E for over 10 years (and never used AoN, I always used book at the tables) before getting into PF2E, I also had the exact issue! AoN was so confusing to use for someone completely new to the system that I hated it at the start. But once I got into it, AoN felt so good to use. TBH, PF2E was way harder for me to get into than PF1E. PF1E was natural and I just eased into it without any problem with the core rulebook and APG. PF2E, however, I struggled quite a bit.

[@willw6504]

"Might be a good time to try a new system!" Me: Still using Pathfinder 1e because it's the best version of 3.5 which is the easiest modded version of D&D ever made (archetypes yo). Me: Also has half a dozen other new TTRPG systems (none of which are 5e or P2) that I've been meaning to learn and bought books for but haven't had time to try because I keep playing Pathfinder 1e.

[@elfknight8045]

Highly recommend Dragonbane by Free League Press. It's a way more streamlined experience.

[@elfknight8045]

*Free League Publishing

[@vincesnetterton2515]

I play/run 5e from micro-wotc and play in a Pathfinder 2e game. PF is actually much more difficult to nail down everything, and without something like Pathbuilder, creating a PC is a brute. That said, Pathfinder is vastly superior to any trash out out my micro-wotc.

[@LiannaBabeli]

Creating a PC is a brute? I am unsure what you mean by this? Did you or your players have difficulty with understanding character creation concepts? My apologies, but even my wife, who is literally a newb and barely understands TTRPGs, was able to make a character herself with little need to ask me questions.

[@vincesnetterton2515]

@@LiannaBabeli Yes. I have played 5e for years, AD&D 1e for years, Basic Fantasy, and Pathfinder. Pathfinder by a wide margin is the most complicated, due to the feat trees.

[@LiannaBabeli]

@@vincesnetterton2515 Does this feel complicated because the feat trees have 'too' many options or that the feats feel excessive? Just curious where your stumbling block might be. ^^