LCS Players' Association Strengthens / Future union? - The Four Horsemen S2E2 (feat. Phil Aram)

The Four Horsemen is the premier esports industry show that reacts to important news and critical conversations across all major titles. Esports veterans Duncan "Thorin" Shields, Richard Lewis, and Christopher "MonteCristo" Mykles use their decades of experience to shed light and debate on key esports topics as they emerge. Each episode they are joined by an expert guest to help further provide insider information on the topic at hand.
In this episode, special guest Phillip Aram, executive director of the LCS Players' Association, joins the show to discuss the announcement of the LCS PA's new naming, image, and likeness deal with the players, their partnership with OneTeam, the state of the LCS PA, their future plans, and more.
Come join the Insight on Esports Discord for in-depth discussion across esports: / discord
Audio versions of the show can be found on podcast platforms here: the-four-horsemen.captivate.f...
0:00:00 - What are the LCSPA's goals?
0:28:45 - Likeness rights and monetization
1:00:25 - What is OneTeam?
1:14:44 - Collective bargaining
1:46:24 - Players favoring Academy over "bottom" teams
2:00:22 - Thoughts on the CSPPA
2:13:58 - Closing thoughts
2:26:07 - Dopamine fasting
2:43:24 - Biggest check-stealing player
2:46:08 - Does karrigan need to win a major to be the GOAT IGL?
2:51:40 - Thoughts on the Phantoml0rd lawsuit outcome
2:54:57 - What is something that made you happy today?
#EsportsPodcast
#TheFourHorsemenPodcast
#LoLPodcast

[@Wvzzz]

I could listen to Monte, Thorin and Richard talk about any topic for 3+ hours honestly

[@MitsuoRLCoach]

especially when they're angry, it's more entertaining

[@rtdfvbtr]

sad

[@WatchThatKilcam15]

factual information

[@samueltunnicliffe7012]

@@rtdfvbtr except you're here tho

[@MitsuoRLCoach]

@@rtdfvbtr except youre here tho

[@hish3098]

he seems competent... which is more than I can say for 99% of esports

[@KeenJT]

The joke at the start from Duncan about "putting the phone to Mark Merril down" actually made me laugh out loud. Fantastic.

[@c-pw8fc]

Slayed me for about 2 minutes. Almost as good as Thorin's "Rise up" comment in response to Russian teams being banned from CSGO tournaments. That got me for about 15 minutes.

[@lennoxblade7696]

Kudos for Phil for standing up to these guys. Also, kudos to Thorin, Monte and Richard for actually listening when he is answering. Rather than just arguing. This was a great discussion.

[@Chris951021]

Holy shit, it's Phil Aram, the creator of ARAM game mode.

[@Wvzzz]

Next episode they should get John Urf on

[@rubik9219]

@@Wvzzz I was hoping Mike Dominion would come on to talk about how Riot cut him out

[@triangle4295]

finally someone made that joke i was waiting for it since i saw this guy for a first time

[@Verlisify]

It really says something when there was deafening silence on "what made you happy today"

[@rodm7505]

Philip Aram genuinely seems like the first guest Richard, Thorin and Monte actually respected.

[@inigorodriguez8299]

Top notch content right here, always pleasant to see and hear from someone well versed in their field and seemingly genuine in their good-faith. Its still early, but the future looks bright for the LCS PA.

[@vivekwarrier8371]

Man this seems like such an interesting topic and guest. Can’t wait to listen in

[@makaidiy5716]

27:41 is a very valid point. I find conflict of interest issues is something which struck me as very important. It is difficult to uphold principles of justice and fairness when their is a conflict of interest. I am not against players owning stock in an org... but you should be a retired player not on the current roster

[@MitsuoRLCoach]

A bit redundant, considering that's the only way to have zero conflicts of interests

[@MitsuoRLCoach]

A bit redundant, considering that's the only way to have zero conflicts of interests

[@fortressblas7700]

@@MitsuoRLCoach the irony is real :^)

[@defaultreviews]

Holy, I first heard about Phil when he was still the CEO(?) of EG, great to see him again.

[@makaidiy5716]

39:52 I was wondering about the IP issue. glad to hear this is being addressed

[@frederikpedersen4396]

1:38:20 As an European follower of the NFL for the past 7 years, one of the main draws for me was the salary cap. Coming from football in EU, the salary cap in combination with the draft is almosst as big of a draw for me, as the actual game is. The leveling of the playing field is truly refreshing in comparrison with ALL the top EU football leagues.

[@klone57]

The talk on dopamine fasting was 10/10

[@timasprer4078]

hopefully a LOL general manager game can be made in the future now

[@kv222]

Nice, another 4 horseman. Love to see it

[@philo0]

As someone who has worked in a profession with a strong union and needed their help, I can say they are essential. I had a false accusation made against me that was serious. The union funded a specialist solicitor and barrister which was invaluable. A good union is worth every penny.

[@GepicZ]

Feel like I learn more from listening to Monte Richard and Thorin for 3 hours than studying at uni. Great conversations always

[@Kinwika]

couple of mins and already some banger Thorin jokes

[@madmad4769]

Love these industry videos

[@grandarchon6969]

The only fix to these solutions is an open game license, which Riot will never give out. Everything is a band-aid that can't fix the gaping axe wound in this scene's head.

[@persephone9360]

Great conversation

[@christianc750]

This guy is ACTUALLY smart... Love it

[@tomdowson9257]

Are these episodes still going to be uploaded to Podcast platforms? Thanks in advance

[@KjtheGreatPro]

Why isnt this more popular? These guys must not give a shit about branding or marketing.

[@makaidiy5716]

In light of the number of imports into NA, the question i have is whether all the "local" USA laws/legal protections apply equally to them.

[@vivekwarrier8371]

If the contract is carried out on US soil then I believe the answer is yes.

[@pootie3181]

always a good start when the guest doesnt laugh at thorins opener jokes

[@FollowMarcos]

Anyone know what's the name of Phillip's accent?

[@XindeGaming]

Thorin's Purgatory is such a great concept lol.

[@farcydebop7982]

That Aram guy didn’t look like he was enjoying Thorin’s jokes on his name.

[@allbies]

Guy needs to lighten up

[@reuzut2357]

How will this work if every new top player that comes into the league is mainly an import. So the new player will have to join the the union. Like if Caps comes over wouldn’t that weaken the union if he doesn’t join? Wouldn’t that put new imports with big fan bases at a extremely big power position over the union players. (Im an hour and 20 minutes in)

[@shaunstrachan]

If the PA were to make 3 separate deals for tradeable cards, funkopops & posters, the teams will be cut in to each deal for a % as well as the players for use of their name/logo/etc. Given how much 1 team can make from 1 sponsorship, it's likely even though the cut will be small this will be a significant sum of money at this stage. In this scenario, the team picking up an import would be massively incentivised to encourage them to be included in this union. You might even find one of the clauses in the PA agreement is that only players in the PA can be signed to play in the league - It might not even be a choice once all parties are on board (players, teams, rito).

[@HlebHD]

Ggs 100t made Thorins joke in the beginning funnier

[@alienobserver7220]

And where the hell is LEC Players' Association?

[@joshuam.3125]

Let's goooooo!!!!(

[@void56208]

Sell gpu plates with players name and photo on it

[@rylanacker]

I had to turn the podcast off and go get the book I've been putting off after 2:42:43

[@Dravor]

huge

[@gustavocantagallo4957]

Apavooooro

[@alisajwani4538]

Too complicated for my brain. But good job I guess

[@inigorodriguez8299]

Also, I see Monte has been drinking from the Rob Parker koolaid.

[@Rayon811]

He sounds like Semphis wtf

[@lewilewis9812]

I was thinking the exact same thing. So similar

[@acknowledge101]

On a regular basis

[@Verlisify]

The thing about TB saying how he sought out people talking about him was something I had to completely remove as something that matters from my mind early on. Thats how the worthless in society pull you down

[@AverageSneedEnjoyer]

You are not comparable to TB, there are very legitimate things you have done worthy of criticism. An entire community ostracizing you for being awful is not comparable to TB having a few passionate haters

[@EpicVideoMaster11]

Bengals made finals didn't win it though I asssume it was an misspeak

[@beyerravn123]

I feel old when my first thought of this guy is that he feels a bit too young for his job...

[@LemoNNNade1]

first

[@MidsummerNightScream]

tall people love to casually drop their height in conversations, inconsequentially.

[@MusicHound18]

I love thorin but I’d wish he would interrupt less when the guests are talking. I know he’s talked about it before and why he does it but when they ask a question and the guest is trying to answer it I wish he’d let them talk. Because like 2/3 of the the time they don’t say the exact point they were trying to make bc they forget exactly what they were saying. I still enjoy the content and overall its very good but that’s my one wish for this to improve. When the guest is talking just shhhh. Interrupt Monty fine…sidetrack yourself fine…but don’t sidetrack the guests answer lol

[@benjaminp2776]

If Phillip here thinks the unions have helped anybody but the top 10% of players and the owners in sports like baseball and basketball he's horribly mistaken. Minor league players STILL live on Ramen noodles and get their service time manipulated with spot call ups for 1-10 days and never enter arbitration to get above league minimums for 2-5 years. In the NBA if you're a top player you have more power than the person who pays your bills and you still get paid. Nonsense.

[@Mecrobb]

Not going to dispute you but just know that academy and under players were and will still continue to subsist on ramen regardless of the pa and the new rule. You gotta start somewhere though and there are significantly fewer pro players in league compared to MLB.

[@nuraby_9228]

Try watching the video and listening to what Phillip has to say.

[@benjaminp2776]

@@nuraby_9228 I listened to every second of this video, mate. It sounds like he read that one book and might like a baseball team, thus thinks he knows about the greatness of the baseball system when judging purely from his presentation on this episode he's a normie to baseball at best.

[@nosuitsgiven]

Only someone with a background in PROGRESSIVE POLITICS could think inside the box so much into thinking trading cards hold value....WNBA????? lmfao

[@vivekwarrier8371]

It's not just trading cards. Fantasy sports, video games like FIFA, FM ,OOTP all use image rights. The WNBA is a joke for other reasons but even they have managed to sell their likeness rights to 2K at this point, which is why getting OneTeam into the space is good.

[@shiki3748]

I neither knew who he was or where he came from could tell he was progressive from the start and became more apparent the more he spoke.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

Why NA viewership has gone down in the NA LCS... Let's see. Under 50% of the NA League is native born NA talent. The league can't claim to be a North America League IF OVER HALF THE LEAGUE IS IMPORTS. So we NA watchers have seen more and more anti-Native NA sentiment build up over the years. Obsession for Imports is a big reason. Second reason... Franchising has killed the excitement of the league. It has allowed Teams to not give a shit and play bottom feeders without any negative consequences. Without relegations, it has lead to a very stagnant league. Then there is the sheer lack of professionalism in the LCS, both from team owners and players, and Riot Games in general.

[@mysticsham7430]

@Indigo Dragon Do you watch LCS? Or are you just saying things you heard others say? I've never met anyone that watches LCS or any other top sports elite league that really cared the % of players that are from a specific countries compared to those born in US. Can you imagine if what you said became reality? LCS made up of mostly NA born players would have no Bwipo, Summit, PowerOfEvil, Beserker, CoreJJ or Bjerg and the list goes on. How many people really want to watch that product? The players you'd classify as NA that exist in the current season are for the most part players that earned the spots on one of the top leagues. As to my guess as to why viewership has dropped and this is by no means is this based on any information other than my small sample pool of friends and family that watch LCS, is that the NA audience is aging and LCS does a terrible job at accommodating those that want to continue to watch. 1. People that could watch entire weekend of LCS every week 10 years ago, now have grown, have jobs and families/kids or other priorities. 2. LCS airs in EST at 3pm for 6 hours+ on the weekend only, so people have to choose between watching LCS on days off work or doing other weekend activities. Why Riot still hasn't split games across the entire week and put games at a primetime time slot will always make me scratch my head. 3. If you want to watch at reasonable pace or throughout the week, you go and look at VODs or highlights on KZbin, which hurts "viewership" since I doubt those numbers are included.

[@nuraby_9228]

If NA was NA only players, they'd be worse than wild card regions. Money and wildcard regions being gatekept from getting any relevant international experience due to Riot's terrible international circuit system are the only things that keep NA a major region.

[@agronnak]

@@mysticsham7430 you forgot to mention point 4... You don't watch LCS for good gameplay or entertaining broadcast.

[@MitsuoRLCoach]

I think having many imported players in the NA LCS is no where near a negative in terms of viewership. Absolutely makes zero sense. Sounds like an elitist train of thought where you're building random fences around things you think are "pure". Also, you don't speak for all "NA watchers" , clearly. Thirdly, without franchising you wouldn't have an LCS or at least a remotely popular league. These bottom feeders, as you call them, will not last long. People will be fired internally within organizations for "not giving a shit". I strongly encourage you to research topics before you speak for everyone.

[@shiki3748]

Although I don't agree with NA only and franchising has its positives and negatives, the point you made last is the real reason why NA sucks. Korean imports realize it when they come over -NA teams and players don't take the competitive aspects of game seriously. I'm not saying grinding 16 hour days is healthy, but Koreans in general have a much more disciplined mentality and it shows in their higher level of play.