TSM coach Peter Zhang fired for conflict of interest - The Four Horsemen S2E3 (feat. Barry Lee)

The Four Horsemen is the premier esports industry show that reacts to important news and critical conversations across all major titles. Esports veterans Duncan "Thorin" Shields, Richard Lewis, and Christopher "MonteCristo" Mykles use their decades of experience to shed light and debate on key esports topics as they emerge. Each episode they are joined by an expert guest to help further provide insider information on the topic at hand.
In this episode, special guest Barry Lee, former agent and current advisor to Evolved Talent, joins the show to discuss the allegations against TSM coach Peter Zhang, the role of player agents in the broader League of Legends and esports ecosystems, conflicts of interest in esports, and more.
This episode was filmed on March 22nd, 2022.
Come join the Insight on Esports Discord for in-depth discussion across esports: / discord
Audio versions of the show can be found on podcast platforms here: the-four-horsemen.captivate.f...
0:00:00 - Context
0:25:48 - Weaknesses in TSM's structure
0:34:13 - What laws are in play?
0:41:20 - Peter Zhang's defense
1:01:19 - What is the role of an agent in esports?
1:19:43 - LCSPA investigation
1:28:30 - LCS Commissioner's post on match fixing
1:50:07 - Reddit's reaction to Rich's report
2:07:43 - Closing thoughts on the topic
2:18:34 - Who is the best interviewer in esports?
2:23:31 - Favorite Ancient Greek play
2:26:29 - Crypto, NFT's, VTubers, and Gen Z
2:38:36 - Who benefits the most when streamers sign with teams?
#EsportsPodcast
#TheFourHorsemenPodcast
#LoLPodcast

[@danielhayes248]

Not even an hour in but I just have to comment that I love Barry as a guest. Mainly because he actually is able to voice his own opinion without RL, thorin or monte saying “what do you think X?” I’m glad he is able to interject and also maintain the free flowing continuous feel of the podcast. Truly feels like a 4 man show not 3 friends + one extra, if that makes any sense.

[@jimmytheanimator8644]

Agreed, absolute banger episode if not the best one yet. Would be a treat to have him on again as the regular 4th.

[@AnadroJ_TV]

Could be because they've been friends for a long ass time so he feels comfortable interjecting without hesitation

[@CatnamedMittens]

Definitely

[@makaidiy5716]

Richard Lewis commentary around 1:33 :36 is spot on. I work as an Attorney-at-Law. The commissioner would be crucified for that stunt she pulled.

[@capn_sarge]

I knew it wouldn't be regi but could you imagine the pure gold this episode would have been if he was the 4th?

[@kissblade8587]

AWS would have an outage from the twitch/youtube hits.

[@LRIIDynasty]

it would have been a 5 minute video, with them never getting to the main topic because Thorin can't help but call Regi on his shit and then Regi just rage quits lol

[@Creamouz]

@@LRIIDynasty The real fun would be betting on how long Regi can stay in a call with Thorin without muting him or leaving

[@juanaugustolopez8747]

1:31:56 Love how Richard is just going off and Thorin is like: "Oh yes, go on, please go on"

[@mathushanthravichandren7904]

he literally said Go Off King lmfao

[@ferminandresparra3266]

mental sex

[@ShinDSER]

Richard going absolutely nuclear and Thorin saying "go off king, get 'em" just made my day. Fire episode.

[@Wombola]

I snapped my fingas

[@nightmare_1337]

"Innocent until proven guilty has to be a standard we adhere to." Is Richard some sort of time traveler? This is for sure not how journalism is done these days.

[@asdf0747]

that is how it's supposed to work, because by assuming someone guilty, you can just walk up to a random person and report them for terrorism and have them arrested without due process

[@asdf0747]

Obama did this worse than bush when he signed NDAA Section 1021 back in 2012. Essentially, you can just be labeled terrorist without proof and you will be sent to guantanamo without due process

[@nightmare_1337]

@@asdf0747 KKona

[@6666Imperator]

also not how society looks at it. Not only journalism. If the people would hold the journalists accountable for what they write and do then they wouldn't dare to do half of what they do :D

[@deuxexmachimax]

Been waiting for your takes on this. The only group of people who actually know what they're talking about. I'm tired of the constant unprofessional behavior in the e-sports sphere.

[@imthebestmayne122]

I love this show, too. But I would not as far as saying they 100% know what they are talking about. None of them except kind of Barry have actually been trained in any formal law. There is certainly a large amount of experience here, but no formal education in the subject matter.

[@rufusrupo]

Meanwhile they're arguing zheng acted as a played agent with 0 evidence just because r Lewis is the editor at the site that broke the story

[@AiyukIsHim]

@@rufusrupo lol what nonsense did you just post

[@rufusrupo]

@@AiyukIsHim ? There's 0 evidence zheng acted as a player agent

[@matthewbarnwell5084]

i would have richard narrate the story of my life, i could listen to him ramble about anything, even ian armin

[@charleston7717]

Dont think he does short stories mate

[@revesbystation8630]

@@charleston7717 You are hilarious.

[@mat5669]

I remember him saying something like ”as an old drunkard I have stories for a life time”. Some of my fav were ”the story of Ming” and a time he panicked after drinking a whole afternoon and evening with a random lady.

[@CatnamedMittens]

Even Idi Amin

[@shockr9880]

I'm surprised the LCS commissioner didn't get banned from the subreddit for making "unsourced claims" KEKW.

[@youtuberson]

What a time to be alive - watching TSM crash and burn every week

[@antonseoane9092]

Best timeline tbh this is peak content

[@alisajwani4538]

Sadly the same timeline where NFT bros exits

[@nguyentri3608]

@@alisajwani4538 fortunately the NFT bros and cryptards are also TSM :>

[@darkyperv34]

@@nguyentri3608 I see the Agent Orange really fucked up your genetics

[@je371]

@@darkyperv34 didnt take that much for that guy to get under your weak ass skin

[@eiatos]

I never thought I'd see Barry again, loved this dude in the OGN days. He was part of what made the talent there special.

[@BON3SMcCOY]

Whatd he do there?

[@taranrogers9162]

I just wish they would actually let him speak.

[@AONTrappy]

@@BON3SMcCOY Translator and I think he was part of the english production team.

[@appleinator8065]

He even cast a few rare games and we have one gem of a solocast if I remember correctly

[@hish3098]

Nice to see the return of Barry

[@taranrogers9162]

Would be nice if he was actually allowed to talk tho

[@hish3098]

​@@taranrogers9162 not allowed is an exageration, but I agree that barry adds a lot of value. I agree with him on that reddit comment

[@RatWithaTool]

Man, some topics just flame up Richard and it's such a spectacle to see. Never change mate, you're a treasure!

[@Romanus7867]

"The JFK assassination should teach you that lesson." - Richard Lewis

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

What lesson

[@Bidenlost]

@@OMAR-vk9pi are you legitimately asking this question or are you being purposefully obtuse?

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

@@Bidenlost I’m asking

[@Bidenlost]

@@OMAR-vk9pi there's so much depth to the JFK assassination you really need to look into yourself. JFK was a threat to the status quo of Washington and there's many people that believe the government had Kennedy killed and blamed Lee Harvey Oswald. Peter Zhang would be Lee Harvey Oswald in this scenario.

[@makaidiy5716]

As you guys discussed around 37:45 i was thinking whether any Federal Laws were borken. particularly with regard to tax evasion

[@johngo3715]

I don't know how the League community in China is, but they should also consider that Shen Yi might be taking Peter Zhang's side to watch out for himself. Whether or not Peter took a cut from Shen Yi, Shen Yi is likely to play again in China in the future. If Peter has enough connections, he could either cost or help Shen Yi with getting a roster spot.

[@makaidiy5716]

I think for richness of the discussion, the matter precipitating the breakup of Moscow 5 which also involved irregular money transaction from a person in a LoL org, should have been talked about. I mention that because even thought it was a Russian team it also touched on Federal Laws in the USA.

[@petter9078]

Great thing they brought Barry Lee on. You know.

[@BARON123446]

Does the VOD from C9 channel still exist? I vaguely remember that "pilot" episode so to speak. I would love to see the whole thing once again!

[@nguyentri3608]

On c9 channel, you'd find the section of the VOD with loco and Barry but you have to dig through twitch VODs for the Ricardo Luis section

[@Zeroyue622]

Finally here! Been waiting since the TSM announced it

[@scoopjackson]

Killed Barry in pubg once. Hes an OG homie.

[@spikey585ify]

Richard was on fire this episode. Love it.

[@HeckMayster.]

Always a fan of barry coming onto shows. It's important to constantly keep all perspectives open rather than just agree with the 3 other horsemen (hell even especially when you agree with them)

[@Creamouz]

Didn't expect Richard Lewis to make me hate life a little more intensely for a bit at the end there

[@Bagel34BC]

Watching Barry’s reactions to Richard and Thorin is absolutely hilarious throughout the episode.

[@LimeWire05]

Thorin, please never change

[@Imasliceyou]

My work about 2 years ago requires proof of passing in order to receive bereavement time.

[@makaidiy5716]

feels like i was waiting forever for you guys to deal with this...gimme a sec going to get my snacks, drink and get comfortable. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@bipolarminddroppings]

I wonder how many more of these we will have before the community finally gets it through their heads: Just the potential for abuse is enough of a risk that we can not allow even potential conflicts of interest to exist.

[@donovandec574]

36:35 this is literally a plot point of the dark knight (2008)

[@jaredwhite6041]

Barrys a good guest, even if hes somewhat wrong he isnt afraid to try and get his takes in. Its nice.

[@khrizmoney]

10/10 episode 👏👏👏

[@crawlmanjrable]

This whole TSM drama has been very cathartic.

[@coryjohnson9728]

TSM and Reginald are like that kid who goes bowling with the guard rails up. No matter how bad the roll, they just keep knocking down pins.

[@void56208]

To prove a dead relative, my work makes you bring in a funeral pamphlet

[@Aanenk]

loved thorin this epi lol, Swed! and cheers to richard, I agree, fk the boomers lol. his whole insights on point. he tweets that shit and i bet twitter would eat it up haha. i enjoyed the streamer question. I would wanna ask what Barry thinks about growth rate. He mentions around 1k concurrent youll probably either blow up or die down but what would be the best option for someone thats gained a couple concurrents a day over years compared to someone thats randomly gained a thousand concurrent viewers? really interested to see how this TSM stuff unfolds tho

[@florisbackx1744]

1:32: 15 Oh Yeah, Richard tell e'm! Tell e'm good! Hahaha!!

[@gaszerwael2067]

The Four Hoursemen show needs a proper intro music every time a new Esports fuckery happens.

[@ilcavalieredellupo4339]

1:08:36

[@demondude15]

i mean the way Cloud 9 ran it down against TSM recently.... not saying anything but....

[@officialmcdeath]

2:38:17 KLF not EMF 🤣 \m/

[@ilcavalieredellupo4339]

1:16:31

[@Wombola]

I'll sub for more Lewis

[@ilcavalieredellupo4339]

24:10

[@nosignalblowsass]

"smokin my nugs" lmao Richard the GOAT.

[@Kbognoy]

50% CONTROVERSIAL figures :> 50% ONGAMENET talent. I wouldn't put my e-sports in any other hands.

[@sonnychan123]

Did Thorin just heavily lean into his accent as a meme or something

[@whiter0se_]

Wait so peter zhang is a patsy?

[@pandamoon1214]

A lot of medicine bills for sugery in China does not really have receipts. They send it as a gift card to the lead doctor , so they could guarantee a lead doctor does a good job and is operating.

[@Rayon811]

1:17:50 LMAO

[@dwgreen108]

2:26:29 Some very insightful comments here on cryptocurrency from Thorin and Richard

[@Bidenlost]

REDDIT IS COMPLETELY FUCKED. LONG GONE ARE THE DAYS WHEN RON PAUL WAS THE MOST POPULAR DISCUSSION TOPIC.

[@KhaoticKaos]

legendary

[@farcydebop7982]

When you want to salvage your relationship with Riot, and realize you made a big mistake by featuring in this podcast.

[@Wombola]

Reddit is unreal.

[@JonBiven]

Did I just hear "moderation theory'"? 😭

[@geSeswe]

Richard says he dont like to speculate but he keeps bringing up diffrent speculating subjects witch have no proof just what can have been or lead to this. THATS CALL SPECULATING but wait you said you dont like to do that? Then he should stop doing it becouse he makes people lissen and speculate at things hes saying so he leads it to that alot.

[@ginkamikaze2]

Funny how ARAM misspelled "council" when he truly meant COUNSEL... fml and he used such verbose rhetoric that you'd think he was actually smart... he would make a great diplomat though, a lot of word salad and very little being actually said...

[@emceemikey]

Honestly now that tsm has no fans we don't have to collectively dump on them so much anymore. It's all about balance you know

[@JorgeM270]

Hey it's sweaty metagross meme guy

[@jessetatum5275]

china has free healthcare

[@pootie3181]

yesss

[@ichill2860]

yess

[@MrWizardjr9]

its not hard to get money into china its hard to get money out. but currency exchange fees might be a legit reason

[@alisajwani4538]

I feel cheated, I just watched the whole vod on twitch just now cause they didn’t schedule the upload.

[@ffsFonix]

Whats the problem? They are the same video

[@alisajwani4538]

@@ffsFonix watching a vod on twitch is more difficult.

[@ffsFonix]

@@alisajwani4538 how so? Works better on mobile for me.

[@alisajwani4538]

@@ffsFonix I suppose Dodd people different preferences

[@nguyentri3608]

@@ffsFonix twitch vod has a lot of ads and you can't skip them. Nevertheless, I watched the vod and will rewatch it now through KZbin :D

[@adammaglio]

I love how they talk about how incompetent the management of TSM are and then immediately talk about how the TSM management sat down and designed this elaborate plan to frame P. Zhang for their poor performance.

[@12ARedSon]

I'm curious about the possible betting angle: may require looking as far back as Worlds 2020. Imagine if the legendary 0-6 run was actually because Peter Zhang was trying to earn some dough 🙄

[@cepheus9856]

Nah. TSM was just trash, individually they were bottom of the tournament and as a team. Deserved 0-6. "Match fixing" not needed. They were also bad in 2015-2017 before Peter Zhang.

[@rufusrupo]

Super unethical to argue he still might have been acting as a player agent with 0 evidence and an obvious paper trail of the few Chinese players at the org

[@darkyperv34]

Lmao, Everytime they talk about how reggie should be responsible and known about Peter, Monte's face looks odd, I bet it's because he knows that would make him for the renegade incident and even look worse then reggie, because he should of known the person he hired was a scumbag.. that would make him responsible for remilia's issues LMAO

[@MrWizardjr9]

maybe you should think about not strangling dota 2 pros when you are at an event. it seems like lewis is just picking at schematics. also which is it? you guys slammed C9 for not talking about any details about LS and now you are dragging the commissioner for giving some basic details to quell speculation also interesting how he didnt mention that he threatened to dox the reddit moderators. i agree with him on the issue but if someone says gif is pronounced jif but then said i will punch anyone who disagrees i agree with their point but they are still a shitty person. also regardless of whether the person killed themselves mocking someone for having depression is still a shitty thing to do

[@f41th]

Are you serious? I don't see how the first part has anything to do with the topic - whataboutism at its best. Slamming C9 for not providing information doesn't compare with slamming an official for speaking out on a matter that is currently being investigated. The first one is arguably a bad move/unfair to not justify it and you can debate it, sure but the second is just wrong. I guess the rest of it explains your takes - you just don't like the guy. But you shouldn't let liking someone influence the argument.

[@TheRealKillroy]

Firstly, consider reading up on what actually happened at Dreamhack rather than regurgitating the first Google search title. Secondly, I don't know how to answer your criticism about their comments regarding the commissioner apart from, watch the fucking episode and listen.