Lead Poisoning as a factor in Rome's fall | Examining what we know of the theory and evidence

[@JasperFromMS]

I am a former licensed waterworks operator in my state. Your analysis of lead pipes is exactly correct and the same exact thing happens with modern systems. Calcium lines any lead or copper in the system if the water is kept at the proper pH, usually in the 8 to 8.5 range, with 8.2 being optimal.

[@Descriptor413]

I've also read that the problem in Flint, MI wasn't just that they used lead pipes, but that they switched to a more acidic water source, which ate away at the protective calcium layer and thus allowed the lead to leach into the water supply.

[@JasperFromMS]

@Descriptor413 exactly. They switched water and had not done their own treatment before. The treatment plant was set up to run pH at 7ish from what I understand. That's way too low. It took a while, but the scale inside the pipes eroded away and then the pipes started to corrode.

[@harrywilliamson7043]

@@JasperFromMS Its not just the pH, feeding orthophosphate to intentionall coat the pipes is the main treatment for corrosive water. That coats the lines but doesn't build up over time as much. And it actually requires a lower pH to work (don't remember off hand but we kept it around 7.8 where I worked that fed Ortho. Head operator in Flint actually brought up feeding Ortho because he knew the water would be corrosive but the State officials dismissed that and he didn't push it.

[@raylivengood8040]

@@Descriptor413 you can thank the disgraced former governor for that action and the people he appointed. He should have been thrown in jail because he knew of the danger beforehand and during, but did nothing.

[@kungfutzu3779]

what's your view on aluminium cookware?

[@MseeBMe]

I lost my first granddaughter from lead paint when she was 19 months old. They lived in public housing and the interior paint that had been used to paint all of the apartments was lead based. The autopsy showed that she had flakes of it in her stomach, apparently she had been eating the dried paint as it flaked off the wall. She was a beautiful little girl.

[@samiamrg7]

Leaded gasoline was also disastrous for everywhere that had it. Not just for the people who died, but those who survived with brain damage, which was a huge proportion of people.

[@hello-rq8kf]

@@samiamrg7 also a great explanation for the behavior of baby boomers

[@samiamrg7]

@@hello-rq8kf Gen X, too, since leaded gas was at it’s height when they were kids and wasn’t fully phased out until the 1990’s.

[@darkjudge8786]

That just isn't true. Why would you make up a story like that for youtube comments?

[@Jaxck77]

@@samiamrg7This is a lie. The amount of lead released by leaded gasoline that actually got into the wider population is tiny, it’s a biologically irrelevant amount.

[@esbendit]

The roman mining was so extensive that is detectable in greenland ice cores. High lead emmisions ended with the antonine plague, so if anything the empire was the most stable while mining the most silver and lead.

[@theliato3809]

Sound like the idea I was getting where the massive size and infrastructure of the empire allowed lead to be used at a greater scale then was possible before in the ancient world.

[@Tom-f4d6l]

Maybe it was the higher lead content that lead to the rise of the Roman Empire, since Romans had a higher lead than previous societies. And if people in the British empire also had high lead levels it could point to lead being the catalyst for empire building. More importantly the USA introduced UNleaded gasoline in 1970 and 5 years later they had withdrawn from Vietnam; which arguably was the start of Americans cultural decline. In this way, lead isn't the problem, it's the answer. /s

[@Ted_Land]

Insightful

[@Tom-f4d6l]

@computer1-hc1qnI think there must be a gap in the historiography since modern scholars don't have the lead levels of those writing the texts they study and therefor can't understand them the way the people who wrote them did (this is why you see ridiculous things like a Marxist reading of the crusades). Furthermore having lead levels elevated beyond the authors may allow the historians to read past the text to understand things even the author didn't know /s

[@ShadoFXPerino]

Lead poisoning makes strong men, strong men make anti-lead laws, anti lead laws make weak men, weak men cause lead poisoning.

[@terrenusvitae]

My old house, which I lived in for many years, had lead pipes. I never worried about it and I still don't, for the reasons you state. I would draw the line at leaded wine though.

[@raylivengood8040]

If I were you, I’d still get that water tested lol.

[@Dogman262]

Ignorance is bliss

[@terrenusvitae]

@@raylivengood8040 I no longer live there, and the pipes were literally centuries old. Trust me, there was a thick layer of calcium protecting the water.

[@timothyernst8812]

Pipes are still made of lead, though not 100%. It helps keep the pipes from bursting when it gets cold.

[@Erewhon2024]

Plus it is the most common solder, though it is possible & preferable (though pricey) to braise with a silver based "solder" where the higher heat isn't problem (pipes OK, stained glass, not).​@@timothyernst8812

[@Ronnie-kun]

What about salt? Salt was exclusivly roasted in lead pans so it would become white. Salt is also a universal good that every person consumes.

[@hello-rq8kf]

cute hachikuji pfp!!!

[@censusgary]

Interesting point.

[@xaderp]

Funnily enough, check what is in cheap salts today... (Fluoride, ferro-cyanide etc)

[@stevenpartin9208]

I love this channel. Eclectic, compelling, and always informative. Thanks for making these videos.

[@m_nd_n_c_l]

Thank you for all you do. You've really started grinding out videos, while still maintaining your particular style and quality standards. These mini-deep dives are thoroughly interesting and enlightening.

[@johnquach8821]

I always felt like the "Lead poisoning theory" wasn't as prevalent in the Fall of the Western Roman empire as the urban legend thinks it is.

[@Archangelm127]

The story I always heard growing up was that the Romans drank warmed wine out of lead goblets, enjoying the sweetness. Even at the time, there was a strong counter-narrative right alongside it.

[@simon2493]

The main argument with regards to lead poisoning I've heard is that it caused the same effect as lead usage in fuels a few decades ago, so mainly issues with mental development and in turn lower IQ, but it would be very hard to verify.

[@brendansheehan7714]

On the flip side there is a correlation between crime rates and leaded petrol. Might this unruly energy have been directed outwards towards the roman frontier?

[@bmetalfish3928]

@@brendansheehan7714 they preferred their army be recruited from rural populations led by aristocrats who spent alot of their youth in rural estates.

[@simon2493]

@@brendansheehan7714 warfare isn't about savages but about discipline and elites would have lower IQ as well.

[@kungfutzu3779]

@@simon2493 but the romans did go about it with a good deal of savagery

[@allanchon1361]

Not just dumber, but generally antisocial behavior. The effects are lifelong, even if you were only exposed as a kid. The exposure has been correlated with elevated crime rates in both us and uk studies, and in individual case studies too

[@ontaka5997]

The Ancient Romans also lined their copper cookware with lead instead of tin. This is a bit puzzling because Romans had the technology of tinning metalware.

[@lordMartiya]

Which one was cheaper?

[@IreneSalmakis]

Lead tastes slightly sweet and was often used as a sweetener in the form of lead acetate. Maybe they cooked on it because it made the food taste better.

[@VineFynn]

Tin is and was expensive

[@ontaka5997]

Rich Romans could still afford "tinned" utensils. Maybe having a sweet tooth for Sapa was irresistible.

[@kungfutzu3779]

i thought copper was considered a great cooking medium, why line it?

[@nachoolo]

Man. Cosmos (both all and new) and its utter illiteracy when it comes to History will never stop to disappoint me.

[@Silvashoots]

I like how the new Cosmos is woke.

[@VineFynn]

I mean, what are you to expect of people who think NDG is watchable?

[@theliato3809]

The fact the tap wasn’t off and how the sappa was made is something I wasn’t aware of in this discourse.

[@callmedavid9696]

Can you do a video on over heating from too much bathing

[@sbeaber]

This would be a good series. Tackling all of those proposed causes

[@kenwarren9450]

Would you consider doing a dive into the archaeology and historicity of the Third Servile War? From what I have been learning recently, there is surprisingly little archaeological data and basically zero contemporary writings that support the official story as told by Appian and Plutarch who were wrote their histories over a century later. But maybe the books I just read are out of date and there are new findings? I'd love to see your take on it!

[@jwb_666]

Romans with lead poisoning: Aqueducts, bridges that last a 1000 years. Modern people with modern medicine: HoW CoUlD tHeY bUiLd PyRaMiDs BrO?! Bridges that collapse after 10 years

[@Big_Caesar1]

The Romans didn't have 80,000 pound trucks steamrolling by at 70 mph, Or 250,000 ton freighters than can knock down bridges like a stack of cards

[@JamaicaWhiteMan]

Very good, thanks. I can see a problem with the archaeo analysis being that the lead input from wine might have been class dependent. We'd have to preferentially study bones from the ruling classes to really know, and that subset might not be available.

[@gabrielrodriguez821]

There was a study posted January 6th which takes into account lead levels from silver mining during the 200 years of pax Romania and the following crisis periods in Rome. Levels were so high it reduced Europeans IQ by 2 points. The mining that powered the Roman economy is directly connected to mass lead exposure, and IQ recovered during the periods pre mining and after the Roman empire fell.

[@censusgary]

I’ve seen some of those Roman acqueducts, but I didn’t realize they used to be lined with lead (they aren’t now). It makes sense, though.

[@coyote4237]

When this was brought up in my history classes in the 80s (as a possibility), it was suggested that the glaze on the plates had lead in them. Seems like the idea has been recycled over the centuries in different ways.

[@lunaxquinn]

Do you have a link to the full list of causes you briefly showed in the video?

[@TheFallofRome]

@@lunaxquinn sure, here you go courses.washington.edu/rome250/gallery/ROME%20250/210%20Reasons.htm

[@lunaxquinn]

@@TheFallofRome Thank you so much! 😊

[@Lulu_Catnaps]

I don't know if this is something you can turn off, but FYI youtube is doing the thing where it automatically plays an AI dub based on user location instead of the original audio

[@TheFallofRome]

@@Lulu_Catnaps hm, I wasn’t aware of that. I’ll look in the settings and see if I change something

[@erzsebetkovacs2527]

What?

[@Lulu_Catnaps]

@erzsebetkovacs2527 I'm brazilian, so it automatically plays an awful AI Portuguese dub instead of the original audio,I have to manually turn it to original audio. This happens in some channels but not others so I'm guessing it's possible for creators to turn off.

[@michaelniederer2831]

If you keep debunking the easy answers, we'll be left with a messy and complicated web of cause and effect that is hardly suited to the modern attention span. Thanks again.

[@kersebleptes1317]

In more recent eras, lead has actually been used as a sweetener (!), so I wouldn't be at all surprised if lead cauldrons were used to make this wine additive.

[@erzsebetkovacs2527]

I don't know whether you are referring to the practices of some shady medieval wine merchants, who were known to doctor their sour wines by dropping a piece of lead into the cask, but that was recognized as falsification and poisoning even by their contemporaries and punished.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

I was introduced to the idea by my mother but it was just given as a factor in the fall of Rome

[@Ishkur23]

For a time we probably ingested far more lead through automobile fumes than the Romans ever did through their cookware, sanitation systems, and wine sweeteners, and we are still here. For the most part.

[@ChrisGlenski]

More chemistry and Metallurgy !!❤

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

People are bad at chemistry ! Rome used metallic lead pipes. Metallic lead is harder for the body absorb, as opposed to lead salts (lead compounds). Lead compounds have valence electron orbitals, that more readily absorb into the human body. Lead compounds such as tetraethyl lead, use to used in gasoline, and lead chromate, and lead oxide, used in paint. You know, the lead exposure that we got in the 1st 2/3rds of the 20th century.

[@edgarsnake2857]

I have heard about lead poisoning and the fall of Rome since I was a boy in the 1950s. The reason I was given was that the ruling classes commonly used pewter dishes, bowls, and drinking vessels.

[@hello-rq8kf]

which doesn't hold up when you realize people used lead pipes and cookware for the next two thousand years

[@censusgary]

I’ve read that Romans (or at least some of them) drank wine from lead cups or bowls. It supposedly made the wine redder and sweeter. Comments?

[@dagfinissocool]

This and many other theories about ancient people is basically just saying they were dumb, they didn't know better etc but they were normal people just like us with thoughts and worries and poisining themselves slowly over time without checking the cause is not something I think they would do

[@craigbenz4835]

So, if we discover that post-roman populations had lower lead levels, then should we conclude that the lower lead levels caused the decline? Probably not.

[@kytoaltoky]

I like the wine theory for lead poisoning as lead acetate could result from the boiling of grape must. It might have caused some insanity among the aristocracy which was followed by some bad decision making, but I doubt it was a major cause of Rome's downfall

[@GrandPrixDecals]

No one is saying it’s the single reason for Romes collapse. Did holding, drinking and eating from only lead vessels make some Romans mad, very probably. And it was expensive so it’s all the Emperors and aristocracy would have used. So testing bones of peasants and soldiers isn’t very relevant.

[@r0ky_M]

Id strongly argue republican Rome had an empire before establishment of Augustan Principate.

[@stupidminotaur9735]

There's another theory of another mineral that if you dont enough it you get/are short (homo fhobbit ) they also didnt get enough on this mineral on this island.) this might have also caused some problems to romans 2. small things on lead , 1 is lead plates/cups might have gave/caused some lead poising over time the acid in romans foods might have bleached the lead out even in small qualitiesover time. 1.5 like how tomates caused poisonings in the 1400's-1600's 2. sorry forgot the second 1

[@olafuragustgudmundsson4464]

Lead acetate in wine containers

[@Monothefox]

Sugar of lead... See John Emsley "The elements of murder" (2006)

[@kendallmangus5456]

I'm sure importing many foreigners to occupy the military or the lost economics at the times had much to do with it. We can literally observe this in modern times. Likely was a major influence (though not the only one). Similar causes led to similar (poorly decided) effects.

[@ac1455]

I thought I heard somewhere that for pipes, lead isn’t/wasn’t an issue depending on the water source if it has high mineral concentration since the minerals would just coat over the lead.

[@joseSanchez-ej2oh]

👋

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

Too many civil wars.

[@mistymoonshine897]

Byzantines called themselves Romans, so... 1453?

[@peterlynchchannel]

13:09 Donald Trump picking grapes!

[@Natef89]

Lol..i don't see it.

[@michaireneuszjakubowski5289]

"21. Bolshevization" yeah sure because time-travelling Lenin is the most concise explanation for the fall of the Roman Empire. Sorry, that one just floored me.

[@TheDanEdwards]

You do realize that modern terminology is often used to describe something in the past, when those people in the past had not the same language to describe that thing?

[@varana]

@@TheDanEdwards But this is not about if people back then had a term for the thing, it's chosing a very specific modern term with all sorts of modern prerequisites and implications (like the existence of an industrial working class, or a party, or modern media, or ...) and then ramming the historical square peg into your round terminology hole. It's still a phenomenally stupid idea.

[@redryan20000]

@@TheDanEdwards I'd argue it wasn't really that thing, then. Bolshevism is a very specific ideology that came out of the Russian context. It doesn't really exist outside that context. Lead poisoning is a good example of what you're talking about - it's a chemical interaction that is the same across any historical situation (with varying degrees of effects based on usage). Lead poisoning doesn't change whether you're in the 20th or 2nd century. For political ideology, this might change, in the same way that Fascism and fascism are different things (the former being the Italian 20th century movement, the latter being a general pattern of totalitarian, hyper-nationalistic expansionism). I still think it would be a mistake to give in to the kind of scope creep in point 21, because fascism came from Fascism, while Bolshevism didn't come from Rome, and the phenomenon in point 21 did not give rise to or have any meaningful connection to Bolshevism in Russia.

[@westrim]

@@redryan20000 Thousands of specific terms become more general over time, just because Bolshevization (the hijacking of a cause/nation/group of people from within) didn't end up in long term use doesn't mean it's invalid as a neologism in the time it was used. See also: Hijack, a term that originally meant the theft of a vehicle with cargo in transit. See also: blood poisoning at Point 21, which was actually Blutvergiftung - not a physiological health concern, but refers to *mixing races,* 'poisoning' the blood by 'diluting' it in proponents eyes, one of which was the AH man himself. Expecting a list from a century ago that was only trying to alphabetically list what each theory proponent called their own theory to jibe with word usage today is misguided.

[@westrim]

Thousands of specific terms become more general over time, just because Bolshevization (the hijacking of a cause/nation/group of people from within) didn't end up in long term use doesn't mean it's invalid as a neologism in the time it was used. See also: Hijack, a term that originally meant the theft of a vehicle with cargo in transit. See also: blood poisoning at Point 20, which does not refer to a physiological health concern, but a bad, bad race theory associated with a certain German group from the 30s. It's misguided to expect a list from 40 years ago that further was only trying to briefly catalogue what each proponent called their own theory to jibe with word usage today.

[@elshebactm6769]

🚬🗿👍

[@InquisitorXarius]

Not a primary factor but probably a relatively impactful contributor

[@Jan12700]

But aren't you go insane and are more aggressive when in long exposure to low concentrations of lead? There are studies that do show this for people nowadays because of leaded gasoline. There was also more lead in the Air at this time. What happened to us now with the idiocracy Speedrun, could also have been the case with the Roman Empire. Also if the soil was contaminated with lead, the plants like the grapes for the wine could have picked up the lead that they then ingested.

[@censusgary]

The Roman Empire in the East lasted until 1453.

[@Georgieastra]

The Ottoman Sultans insisted that they were a continuation of the Caesars.

[@jhoughjr1]

Lead solder is king. Lead free solder creates e waste

[@kaiokendo]

The Chinchorro are an example of living with chronic alkaline poisoning and theyre older than egypt ,theyre had child mummies and theyre cared like the living Contemporary inhabitants of the Chinchorro land had also poisoned meaning that trucks with pure water were given instead of natural sources Rome will resolve this with his networks of water too

[@drgonzo1971]

do a video on "Bolshevism" and "Communism" leading to the collapse please

[@redtube8667]

Definitely feel the need to point out that you don't need to consume lead to be poisoned by it. Being near it is enough.

[@Jan12700]

Wireless Lead poisoning?

[@SkyFly19853]

I think you should add sugar poisoning into the list since they use added sugar in almost every food product in my place which causes health and mind problems...

[@kersebleptes1317]

Sugar (from sugar cane) was very rare & expensive in the Roman Empire, as back then it was all imported from the East. But they had to keep other sweeteners, like honey, in some sort of container. I suppose.

[@SkyFly19853]

@kersebleptes1317 At least, the Roman Population was not poisoned by added sugar...

[@jsafterdark6133]

c⭕️⭕️l vide⭕️

[@nurmihusa7780]

Thank goodness we’ve learned our lesson and avoid artificial sweeteners that cause bad health outcomes. Oh wait…

[@Kharzette]

I remember hearing there was an introduction of tomatoes to the diet, which didn't mix well with leaded plates and bowls. Seems like other acidic foods might have been around, but I don't know much about what was available at the time.

[@hello-rq8kf]

oh my god you cannot actually be serious. like please tell me you actually know where tomatoes come from

[@Kharzette]

@@hello-rq8kf I really don't! If I knew I forgot.

[@Georgieastra]

Tomatoes are a New world species. They were domesticated in what is now Mexico and Central America. The Romans never saw a tomato which were not introduced into Europe until after Christopher Columbus's voyages.

[@AlexanderBlumenau]

If one looks at the timespans. Rome actually did never "collapse". Besides that, I grew up with calcified lead pipes in the house. ;-)

[@SOOKIE42069]

I had to giggle so hard at the list suggesting communism, an ideology that would not be synthesized until 12-13 centuries later, took out the romans.

[@hello-rq8kf]

i mean... russia did call itself the third rome

[@jasoncuculo7035]

The Roman empire never became Communist like the list suggested

[@erikheddergott5514]

The Roman Empire endet 1453 with the Fall of Constantinopel.

[@frankmitchell3594]

Did the Eastern Roman Empire use much lead piping and did the Ottomans use the same water pipes?

[@erikheddergott5514]

@ Still the Roman Empire did end in 1453. When Constantiopel was built after 300 AD, they still might have used Lead as Lead is still in many Water Pipelines today. But it is surely a very interesting Question.

[@john2432]

I’m not sure you can really call it an empire at that point

[@erikheddergott5514]

@ The Point is that in 476 AD the Institution of Roman Emporer of the West ended, but not that of the East. It was a German „Historian“ who coined the Term Byzantine Empire clearly after the Fall of Constantinople. The Romoi never called themselves Byzantine. It is totally ahistorical to speak about a Byzantine Empire, when they called themselves Roman Empire till 1453. That the Roman Empire was in decline is out of Question, but it was with Up and Downs. I doubt that the Western Roman Emperor fell because Ravenna, the Capital had leaden Pipes in 476 AD. It was the Lack of Food Supply from Africa that weakened the Western Part of the Empire. After 536 AD it was Plagues and then Islam which reduced the Eastern Roman Empire over the Centuries.