Was There A Hittite Trojan War? | A short look at the textual evidence

The Trojan War is one of the mainstays of classical mythology, and formed a major part of the educational curricula for Ancient Greece and Rome. Whether or not it actually happened has been debated by archaeologists and historians for over two centuries, along with whether or not the Iliad, and Odyssey, should be considered historically accurate at all.
There are textual sources beyond the Greek epics, however. Hittite documents make frequent mention of the city of Wilusa, identified with the Greek Ilios, or Troy, and which is almost certainly the archaeological site of Hisarlik.
This has led some to wonder if perhaps there was a Hittite version of the Trojan War, or if the Hittites played a part in the Trojan War.
SOURCES:
The Trojan War: A Very Short Introduction, Cline
The Trojans and their Neighbors, Bryce

[@exoplanet11]

Very informative. Thanks. I'm surprised you didn't continue the speculation to postulate that perhaps the 're-claiming Helen' narrative in Homer contains some remnant of the princess-marriage treaty account found in the archeological Hittite sources, which seem to suggest that at one point a treaty thought to be in effect was considered void, and that islands were to be reclaimed. I could imagine that if a king's daughter was given in marriage to an enemy king to settle a treaty, and then that treaty was broken, the king in question might wish to reclaim his daughter. It isn't hard to imagine how such events *could* evolve into a story like the Illiad.

[@qboxer]

Bravo, Mike. There are not many videos that dive into Hittite cuneiform records to determine the historicity of the Trojan War, and likely little available outside of very dense and expensive scholarly material. Thank you very much for making this accessible to us.

[@duanewirdel-xe3hv]

Michael wood talked about them in in search of the trojan war. The tawagalawash tablets.

[@scottmccrea1873]

@@duanewirdel-xe3hv He's so goofily pretentious but endearing.

[@panagiotis7946]

Of the ancient languages, only Greek and Latin are written with a regular alphabet and have advanced grammar and syntax Therefore, to this day, they read clearly. All other cultures had no alphabet and had syllabic systems such as cuneiform or hieroglyphs whose pronunciation we do not know Their grammar and syntax are still unknown to us and we cannot read the inscriptions of the ancient Hittites today we read with linguistic models whatever we wish

[@kersebleptes1317]

I like the theory that, if the Hittites are in the Iliad, Homer's "Phrygians" are the most likely candidate. A wealthy, powerful people in the interior, who are depicted as furnishing aid to the Trojans but at the cost of draining Troy's treasuries. Since, by the time the epics were being put together, Phrygia was the wealthy & powerful kingdom in the interior, it would be natural to swap the names.

[@cal2127]

phrygia is also in the same language family as greek iirc so it would also account for the trojans and greeks being able to understand each other

[@GothPaoki]

Phrygians weren't native though. So they being there doesn't mean necessarily that they have a connection with the Hittites. We also have to remember that after the events of the Trojan war that part of asia minor is heavily colonised by greeks. By Herodotus account we know phrygians were neighbours to Macedonians and they were called briges. There's also genetic and linguistic evidence to prove that claim so if ancient writers like Herodotus knew for a fact phrygians were mostly associated with Greeks rather than Hittites i don't see how that association would work since that knowledge would have been lost by the time Herodotus writes about it.

[@pupyfan69]

​@@GothPaokihow is any of that relevant

[@GothPaoki]

@@pupyfan69 how? Phrygians couldn't have been the Hittites that's how it's relevant

[@scottmccrea1873]

@@cal2127 Wasn't there a lingua franca in those days? Like English today or French in the 19th century.

[@kristiangustafson4130]

This is the very model of popular history. Good historical craft, clear limitations and debates outlined and caveated, but made in an accessible way. Great stuff.

[@cmt6997]

“Alaksandu” seems strongly indicative of a significant Greek influence in the region.

[@petros311]

Alexander was also the second name of Paris! but maybe here we having some ancestor of the Trojan royal family of the Illiad

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

Refer to "In Search of the Trojan War" hosted by Michael Wood. It covers the Hittite side of the story.

[@chrystals.4376]

There's relevant translations of Hittite texts published by the Society for Biblical Literature

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

@@chrystals.4376 Yes, and Wood covers them in his docuseries.

[@Sean12248]

I saw it last year. It's old and from the 1980s. I'm NOT saying it's poorly made, in fact it's brilliant but just not up to date. It's very good and as far as I know the only documentary that covers the Hittites and Troy.

[@Fatherofheroesandheroines]

I have always thought the reason there is backlash against the Mycenean Greeks being the Achawans is largely what I call classicalism. These doubters refuse to believe anyone but the Hellenistic Greeks we know to be capable of these kinds of moves.

[@kersebleptes1317]

I remember reading that there was a bit of a reaction to the fitting of Greek & later classical names to those in the Hittites tablets- and that this also applied to similar attempts not related to the Mycenaeans (Bronze age Anatolian geography , for example). But many of these equivalences seem to have stood the test of time...or at least many of them are back in favour recently!

[@darnokthemage170]

​@@kersebleptes1317 Interesting, Anywhere one could read more about this? Always find the histiography about these sort of things really interesting.

[@makutas-v261]

They are, clearly, the greeks. Why else would Homer record it and why else would this be corner stone of ancient greece, one way or another, there is an identification. They came from Greece, it's in there, this is like.. saying the earth is flat cus you can't look it at from outside.

[@TenOrbital]

If the Ahhiyawans are the Greeks it’s interesting the Hittites regarded them as having a king, presumably the king of Mycenae acting as high king of the Greeks. Since the Iliad portrays Agamemnon as a war leader of allies and equals and not a king in the Hittite sense.

[@GothPaoki]

Here's the catch though. Iliad was written after the Mycenaeans fell. So the city states being equal could be an anachronism on Homer's part because that's how things were at his time. That doesn't mean though this union didn't work like a hegemony ruled by Mycenaeans. So the hittites might actually be right.

[@robertbollard5475]

@@GothPaoki It's significant that the translation of Linear B tablets revealed that the word for King in Mycenaean Greek was "Wanax" - a word that had dissapeared from the Greek vocabulary by the Classical period replaced by the term "basileos", which in the Mycenaean documents appears to refer to a minor official. Significantly, though "wanax" disappeared from usage, Homer preserves the term "anax" to descroibe Agamemnon and Priam.

[@kalliaspapaioannou7045]

@@robertbollard5475 Anax "Άναξ" (King) "Άνασσα" (Queen), actually remained as the word for King (together with the word "Βασιλεύς") till the end of the Byzantine era and still exists in modern Greek in words like anactoro "ανάκτορο" means palace.

[@panagiotis7946]

the word Wilusa and all the other texts we read from the Hittites are irrelevant because it is precisely a dead language that we know absolutely nothing about. Only assumptions of some archaeologists for their own purposes

[@MCArt25]

@@panagiotis7946 "a dead language that we know absolutely nothing about" except we actually know more about this language than any languages the "Greeks" (mycaeneans, minoans, akhaians...) spoke during that time...

[@Sditchvampire]

Great video. For every question I have that strays towards the more niche, you seem to have a video which adresses it. Thanks as always.

[@tonyharpur8383]

Wonderful summary of the known Hittite souces!

[@katmannsson]

Im here for this Trojan-Hittite arc you've been on lately, love it.

[@BiggestCorvid]

Great video great channel. I always recommend to people.

[@christopherkuzek9816]

great dive brother

[@danalaniz7314]

Excellent! Thank You for sharing your expertise.

[@therat1117]

Given that Mycenaean states tended to be relatively small city-states* compared to the Hittite empire, and we know that Miletos was a city under jurisdiction of 'Ahhiyawa', it is probable that the 'Ahhiyawa' mentioned in Hittite documents corresponds to whichever Mycenaean state that governed Miletos. Geographically, Knossos, Athenai, or whomever controlled Rhodos might make sense there, and both Pylos and Knossos report import of slaves from Miletos. There is also much evidence of Mycenaean habitation on Kos. Given the relative power of the palace at Knossos to other Mycenaean states, it's possible that Knossos was suzerain to Miletos, as well as Rhodos and Kos. Athenai is also a possibility, given the traditional strong alliance between Athenai and Miletos dating back to at least the Greek Dark Age according to later Greek records. However, no records from Knossos mention sites from outside of Crete and any Athenian records from the Bronze Age are lost to us. It's also possible the Hittites simply misunderstood how Mycenaean politics worked and viewed 'Ahhiyawa', or all of Greece, as working similar to the Hittite Empire with one high king ruling over many lesser kings, as opposed to the multitude of city-states that seem to have composed the Mycenaean world. Thus they may have misunderstood a local Wanax as being the LU.GAL.GAL of the 'Ahhiyawa', as opposed to simply a LU.GAL in Hittite terms. *Linear B tablets from Pylos identify the Kingdom of Pylos as being roughly a quarter of the size of later Spartan hegemony in the Pelopennese, and the very large Knossos seems to have encompassed all of Crete west of Spathi

[@a.d.t.mapping8792]

ive always figured that Ahhiyawa was a proto-league of some sort, but that would've far surpassed even the biggest classical leagues, since it would've encompassed all of greece, but its the only way i can really justify how ahhiyawa exists (it cant be a single citystate, Hittite records show that Ahhiyawa had 10 times the naval capacity of Pylos, the largest Mycenaean naval power)

[@GothPaoki]

Ahhiyawa quite likely refers to the achean Greeks as a whole which Miletus and Athens weren't since they were Ionian Greeks and this is also a mistake homer makes often when using the term achean to refer to all the Greeks. From the Hittite perspective they were very aware of the Mycenaeans since they were often at odds or even trading with them . Since the Mycenaeans were the predominant achean power and had a large empire they might have considered them a single collective not understanding that acheans as a group were actually larger than just the Mycenaeans. Which also explains why they'd refer to Athens and Miletus as acheans since they'd view everything in the collective as a single power.

[@therat1117]

@@a.d.t.mapping8792 We don't know how large the army or navy of *any* Mycenaean city state was. Linear B tablets only give us the palace administration records for a single year of the palace administration records before they were destroyed in fires that inadvertently preserved the yearly record tablets. Pylos has fairly good records, and what we have at Pylos is lists of oarsmen. Are these oarsmen for trade vessels? Warships? Both? Who knows, but they're usually in teams of 5-20, which is a little smaller than what is reported for later Greece where in the archaic period, oar banks came in numbers of 20-50. Are these teams a whole ship or only one row of oars? We don't know. We also have lists of essentially 'coast guard' who were at particular (usually not-settled) locations watching the sea, with officers and sometimes retainers of the king listed as overseers. Again, their numbers are fairly small, in the dozens, and might be in response to sightings of approaching warships (since the palace was burned down shortly thereafter). We also surmise that each settlement in the kingdom was obligated to provide a certain number of men for war, but we have no idea how many that would be because there aren't any direct records of army organisation other than the coast guard, merely lists of weapons and chariots, some of which are certainly ceremonial and not for war. Spears, which show up on Mycenaean pottery all the time in the hands of their bronze-armoured warriors, and in archaeological finds, simply aren't present in the records at Pylos, which shows that we're missing a lot of context. Chariots evidently had a complex production line set up around them where chariot-makers, wheelwrights, and bronzesmiths are all recorded being involved in chariot production, and of chariot import from areas like Crete, which apparently had good chariots. Numbers are very incomplete though, and this is not helped by a 'complete' chariot not including its wheels, which were evidently interchangeable and handled separately (since wheel damage was probably frequent and having spare wheels around was a necessity). So could a large palace like Knossos, Gla, or Mycenae command forces equal to a Hittite vassal-state, of around 100 chariots and 1,000 infantry? Probably, but the Linear B records are not enough to tell us what the total military capacity of any Mycenaean state was. And there are *not* any Hittite records of the size of the Ahhiyawan navy. The best numbers we get from the Hittites are that a military force that assaulted one of their vassals led by an Ahhiya man (who might not represent a Mycenaean city-state at all, and his men might be local to west Anatolia) had 100... something. Chariots? Men total? The tablet is damaged, unfortunately, and doesn't tell us.

[@therat1117]

@@GothPaoki You are wrong. 'Achaians' as used by Homer alongside 'Danaans' refers to all Greeks for the time Homer is writing for, which was later displaced by 'Hellenes', which seems to have originally referred to people from Epiros. There also was not any 'Ionian' 'Dorian' 'Aeolian' distinction in the Mycenaean period, although the dialect of Mycenaean Greek, ancestral to Arcado-Cypriot Greek, is closely related to Ionian Greek. The division seems to have been more north (West Greek, ancestral Doric/Aeolic) versus south (East Greek, Mycenaean and ancestral Ionian). There was also very little direct trade between Mycenaean Greece and the Hittites, who only had peripheral control over western Anatolia enforced by periodic military campaigns. Mycenaean goods do not seem to have gone further inland than the Anatolian coast. Hittite documents only seem to be aware of the Mycenaeans as people their vassal-states interact with, as they do not seem to ever interact with them directly, unlike with the Mitanni, Egyptians, or Ugarit as examples.

[@GothPaoki]

Are you seriously spewing to me Albanian propaganda man? Your recollection doesn't mean anything. Every historian today accepts this distinction when it comes to Greeks. You didn't even understand my comment since you don't answer to it you just interested in spreading your far right propaganda

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Wonderful information, Mike! It's exciting to know that the myths and legends might have some basis in fact.

[@mpetersen6]

I think a lot of the mythological stories that deal with humans primarily are likely based on events that happened. The fanciful bits with gods etc just fill out the stories. There were likely one or several individuals that were the inspiration for Hercules and his labors. The myths primarily dealing with the gods IMO are an attempt to explain the world and universe around us. The Iliad and the Odyssey were likely inspired by actual events. The Iliad by a war or series of wars against a city or cities in western Anatolia. The Odyssey could have been inspired by the long voyage home of a king or warrior chief from Western Greece. But not ten years of voyaging. IMO the real main characters in the whole cycle are Odysseus and Hector.

[@maxsonthonax1020]

I hear that Michael Wood's series from 1985 is pretty good, covers the same territory, using the same primary sources.

[@TeutonicEmperor1198]

it's nice to see you here mr. Ranieri

[@Avinkwep]

It’s a real shame we still say “The Iliad” and not the clearly superior “Troy Story”

[@samsonsoturian6013]

"AGAMEMON'S COMING!" [Plays dead]

[@duanewirdel-xe3hv]

Iliad means story of ilium, or story of troy.

[@TingTong2568]

A dumb comment spotted

[@Avinkwep]

@@duanewirdel-xe3hv exactly

[@johnathanblackwell759]

No

[@seankessel3867]

Another straight banger. Well done, sir.

[@notrocketscience1950]

excellent channel

[@wilsontheconqueror8101]

Fascinating topic! 👍

[@8bitorgy]

"Is this historically accurate?" literally describes everything in the BC era.

[@radored7750]

Awesome video

[@prnicho]

Most excellent. Many thanks

[@alexanderguesthistorical7842]

Seems to me that the Ahiawa were not only the Achaeans, but were also the Eqwesh ('Sea Peoples'). The names are essentially the same.

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

I would rather think of the Ekwesh as some kind of "Horse people", according to the name in indoeuropean languages.

[@simonmoorcroft1417]

@@fiktivhistoriker345Remember that 'Eqwesh' is an Egyptian word. An exonym given to a branch of the Sea People by the Egyptians. I understand your link to the Proto-Indo-European root of 'equine' but in this case its an Afro-Asiatic/Semitic rendering (or 'butchering') of an likely Indo-European term. It could also be a nickname or a borrowing of a term from the Hittites or Luwians. In a similar manner to the Lakota people of North America being commonly referred to as 'Sioux' (a French term) even by native English speakers. Layer upon layer of language with Endonym's and Exonyms. So Eqwesh could be a version of 'Achean' or 'Ahhiywa'. It could also mean a number of other things literally 'lost in translation'.

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

@@simonmoorcroft1417 I don't think we can call it an egyptian word. If so we should be able to tell what it means in egyptian. It's rather a name used by the egyptians of which we don't know the origin. As you say, it could be borrowing of a term. Possibly from an indoeuropean language.

[@stephenlitten1789]

@@fiktivhistoriker345 Considering the Greek term for horse is hippo-, unlikely. It's possibly a rendering of Achaean, or more accurately Akhaean, with the chi being a very phlegmy h

[@panagiotis7946]

@@simonmoorcroft1417 Of the ancient languages, only Greek and Latin are written with a regular alphabet and have advanced grammar and syntax Therefore, to this day, they read clearly. All other cultures had no alphabet and had syllabic systems such as cuneiform or hieroglyphs whose pronunciation we do not know Their grammar and syntax are still unknown to us and we cannot read the inscriptions of the ancient Hittites today we read with linguistic models whatever we wish

[@ellen4956]

Michael Wood did a really good video about this very thing. The video was made in the 90s (I think) so might seem outdated but it's the same information and very well done. It's called In Search of the Trojan War. He uses translations from the clay tablets found at Hatusha and takes a trip following the route the king took when looking for his nephew, all the way to the sea. He raises the same questions about who the Acheawa were, and the king's nephew was Priamaridus (if I am remembering this correctly). It's unfortunate that the site at Wilusa (Illios, Troy) was not excavated, but instead blown up by Schliemann. He was more a treasure and fame hunter than an archaeologist.

[@maxsonthonax1020]

1985

[@grahamperkins6835]

Just read about this in Erich Cline’s 1177 BC

[@Ben1159a]

You mentioned that there may be evidence in the backfill. I have often wondered if anyone has searched that or not, and if not, would it be worthwhile to do so?

[@abeschreier]

Outstanding

[@LSOP-]

Amazing

[@waterloo32594]

Last time I was this early, Paris had just eloped with Helen

[@finnmacdiarmid3250]

Thou joke hath abducted thine breath

[@AKSnowbat907]

What's sad about this, as a veteran, you know the troops who fought in this war, made peace with dying. They accepted that even if they did, at least the battle would go down in history. At least it'll have some effect. We make peace with that ideal, only to discover that it's forgotten and lost.

[@germansurdey6525]

Yroy was also xalled ILION in the ILIAD . In ancient greek ir was WILION. The first letter W was called DIGAMA. It came in disuse later but was still in use at the time of the Trojan war. The Hittites called it WILUSA i.e. WILION The name ILIAD is the story of ( W) ILION. some say ILION was the name of the ACROPOLUS OF TROY

[@jamesfortune243]

Who cut the closed circuit video feed we had on the horse? 😊

[@billthomas7644]

Homer is often right I have noticed.

[@makutas-v261]

Of course he is, it's just this modern death skepticism that has driven us all mad.

[@budwyzer77]

Have there been any attempts to dig through the backfill at Hissarlik? Or is it theorized that the archive would be blown into tiny unreadable chunks?

[@el_equidistante]

The identification of Ahhiyawa and Wilusa with Greeks and Troy does not only makes sense for historical and geographical reasons, it makes sense because of the clear phonetical proximity. Wilusa in Mycenaean greek would be Wilion which then became Ilion, the same goes for cities like Miletus which in Hittite would be Milawata and of course Ahhiyawa and Achaeans which of course in greek would have the H sound.

[@RemusKingOfRome]

Even earlier than I thought - middle bronze age ?

[@longcastle4863]

Do we have any knowledge of Anatolia sites like GobekliTepe having connections to or merging into the Nations, like the Hittites, that eventually came to rule in that area?

[@twonumber22]

I would imagine all the pre-pottery neolithic sites were long buried. Just a guess.

[@duanewirdel-xe3hv]

Some scholars feel that the Hittites were not native to Anatolia and that they basically borrowed their culture from the native hurrian people.

[@TiberiusX]

​@duanewirdel-xe3hv and Hatti people. The Hittites were at least related to the Indo-Europeans, but adopted many Hatti cultural and linguistic aspects.

[@simonmoorcroft1417]

There is a very long time span between the Anatolian Pre-Pottery Neolithic and the Late Bronze Age, and lots of migrations. The Hittite civilization (according to their own archives) developed from the area of Kanesh or 'Nesha' (modern Kultepe, Turkey). They then initially expanded down the 'Red River' valley to the north into the territory of the Hatti civilization. The Hittites were probably vassal of the Hattian's prior to the collapse of the Hattian empire. The then took over from their former bosses becoming an Indo-European-speaking elite ruling the same territory. Prior to the Hittite take over much of eastern and northern Anatolia was dominated by non-indo-european speaking peoples such as the Hattian's and Hurrians, while the evidence suggests that southern and western Anatolia were dominated by peoples speaking dialects of early or 'archaic' Indo-European dialects such as the Luwians.

[@mpetersen6]

During the neolithic period when Golbeki Tepe and other symptoms sites were in use the Aegean or large areas were dry land. See Robert Ballard and his finding of circular stone structures when doing a survey of WWl wrecks off of Gallipoli. There has to be a lot more to be found in terms of underwater archeology beyond ship wrecks.

[@hugh081]

What is the kylix shown in the video, please

[@antoniotorcoli5740]

You are an outstanding scholar. I am impressed.

[@williambeckett6336]

Uh, I distinctly remember a documentary of archaeologists and historians reading letters of a Hittite troop movement to a specific battle ground that definitely seemed to fit Troy. I know they had several tablets regarding the army march. Very much a case of "Indiana Jones and the last crusade" where we have a verbal map, describing landscapes, rivers, routes and landmarks but no names to go with it. Look for it, I remember it distinctly. The premise being "Troy" was a coastal Hittite vassal state heavily involved, due to its location, in regulating the tin trade coming out of Afghanistan. A critical resource to control in bronze production, important to everyone and a genuine motivator for the Greeks to try and take it.

[@elliottprats1910]

How would Troy possibly regulate the tin trade from Afghanistan? There’s plenty of stronger states closer to Afghanistan than Troy plus how can you control trade from such a far away place?

[@ghostlightdc]

​@@elliottprats1910 I think what he means is that it was a major port into the Mediterranean for the importation of tin. And in the Aegean, it would be THE major port. So much of the imports would have been coming via Troy or the Levant. Troy might have been a middle man that Achaeans wanted gone.

[@duanewirdel-xe3hv]

Michael woods in search of the trojan war.

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

They controlled the dardanelles between the Black Sea and the Aegean. Possibly they provided pilots, because travelling through the dardanelles can be difficult if you only go by sail.

[@hugh081]

Who is the figure being stabbed by Ajax in the thumbnail. Looks like it's a Western Greek alphabet and appears to be something like "Gluqos" (qoth appearing before back vowels in place of kappa). Who is Glukos? Is it a shortened spelling of Glaukos? Any help appreciated!

[@selfiekroos1777]

Troy was a greco-hittite city state Not tough to figure out The war with agamemnon and friends prolly happened, but it most likely didn't last as long as homer said

[@tomjackson4374]

There is Hittite correspondence with a King in the region and it also talks about the Greeks and conflicts within the area. Also Alexander believed this was Troy because one of the first things he did after crossing over was visit Troy. So there is some evidence pointing to this city.

[@baswar]

Could it be that the Iliad is a result of a series of wars or campaigns merging into one in the cultural memory of the greeks? After it lasts 10 years in the story. While my understanding is that the Iliad emerged in the bronze age collapse right? So in a post apocalyptic greek world maybe all they remember is some war leaders fighting an epic war with troy?

[@madderhat5852]

00:20 Can anyone please identify the goddess who wears the shawl of snakes? Is she one of the spirits of the battlefield?

[@bevdavis4148]

I wrote about this several days ago.

[@deiansalazar140]

So I think that it is more likely that since the Trojan described more as a warlord I think it is more likely that it is actually Paris because it is not a stretch to say that his actual taking of Helen would have been a lot more messy and it would also make sense of what he's seen not as a king but as a warlord who is going renegade. The line between warlord and Prince is thinner than you expect. Therefore I actually believe that the father of the son's name was confused and that led to them both having similar names in Greek. It is certainly possible that it was also a personal name or throne name and that the Greeks recorded a different name most likely his father's.

[@pistoneteo]

👏👏

[@FrancisFjordCupola]

I would be surprised if the Hittites didn't have some myths and some epics. Storytelling is human. Stories go around. And in my opinion the most "fun" option would be there was a city like Troy who first got into trouble with the Hittites and subsequently, later on, got in conflict with the Greeks as well. There's no reason a single city state (especially if it's been forced to rebuilt multiple times) only got into a big conflict just once.

[@irena4545]

Ahijawa = Achaii? If this is the real history behind the Illiad, then Holywood might take the consolation of not being the first to butcher the real events beyond recognition :D

[@Galenus1234]

I really wonder why he didn't point out that one of the many words that the Greeks used for themselves was "Achaii", which is as close as you can get to Achijawa.

[@irena4545]

@@Galenus1234 Yeah, that surprised me, too. BTW, is it just me, or did the name of the Trojan king - don't remember it, sorry - really sounded like something distantly related to Priamos?

[@varalderfreyr8438]

​@@irena4545Priam was the father of Paris/Alexandros

[@irena4545]

@@varalderfreyr8438 Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. I don't remember the name of the real Trojan king that was mentioned in the video but while listening, it seemed to me somewhat similar to the name of Priam, so I wondered if Homer's Priam might actually be an echo of the real name.

[@varalderfreyr8438]

@@irena4545 piyamaradu is one of them

[@ezrafriesner8370]

It wouldn’t surprise me if it was a whole triangle of conflict over the centuries, with two forming an alliance against one but doing so with different people at different times

[@alphalunamare]

It is interesting that these texts evoke memories of simple confict between powers. There is no mention of any cataclysm? So those who assert that Thera(Santorini) errupted at that time are blind to the news of the day. One could conclude that Sturt Manning is correct in his dating of such.

[@SMunro]

Wasnt a large Plain/beach was supposed to be at the base of the city of Troy? There was a large plain/beach below cliffs below cliffs at the south east corner of Turkish coast where it turns south to become Syria. And in terms of city names its also the first occupation site.

[@darrinwebber4077]

I just wonder if Troy may have been a Hittite city..I also wonder if Greeks may have attacked ... Seeing a weakness in the wake of the Hittite civil war and subsequent collapse.

[@innerwavesilat]

So you are saying that the Achaeans did not fight with the Trojans... they fought *with* the Trojans against the Hittites?

[@Mumbamumba]

I first read "A Hippie Trojan War?".

[@Mumbamumba]

I guess the Hippies would have lost that one.

[@mueezadam8438]

@@Mumbamumbanah the gods would have totally sided with the side with the most drunken revellers

[@georgiogerakio1358]

Reading all the comments I am amazed how much this story of events taking place 3250 years ago have captured the imagination of all generations thereafter! It's amazing how knowledgeable comments you can read underneath this video! To me the most amazing thing about the Iliad or Troy is how contemporary is. We, humans have advanced technologically so far from the time of Ajax but culturally we remain 100% the same. Not evolved whatsoever, no a single bit. Just like Paris and Helen and Achilles we are ruled by love, hate, ego, passion, pride, power, wealth, politics...we are still going to war for all the above! In addition, to understand Homer we simply have to watch the film Troy, how Hollywood has depicted the events as an epic love story, well Homer did exactly the same, he was the Hollywood 2800 years ago!

[@mueezadam8438]

And consider that Homer was following the literary tradition of the Mycenaeans some further 1000 years before him, who in turn can trace elements of their culture a further 2000 years to the tales of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia. And this pattern is seen across the globe; we all are fascinated by heroic tales and the life that simple human desires create for ourselves

[@markgarin6355]

Well as long as we know ..... Something was going on....in the area

[@elshebactm6769]

🗿👍

[@user-po7xn8ri7r]

The troyans where also greeks and the petites where also greeks minoans eteokrites hatousa you say is aetousa

[@wilsontheconqueror8101]

Thats amazing. By the time of Greco-Roman they had no knowledge of the Hittite empire! Is this lack of knowledge related to the bronze age collapse?

[@ObjectiveAnalysis]

This makes a lot of sense. The hittites were the first imperialists and apparently the royals families of today can trace their bloodlines back to these ruling families

[@botsharing1702]

Two words: Yes.

[@midasderrek]

"Might be better off listened to than watched." HA boy, have I got a surprise for you

[@twonumber22]

definitely, but maybe not

[@SkyFly19853]

You mean Hitties were the bad guys and Troyians were the good guys ?... 🤔😏

[@elliottprats1910]

It depends on who you want to cheer for, I prefer to root for the Hitties

[@SkyFly19853]

@@elliottprats1910 Yes, indeed.

[@costrio]

I'd like to see an essay about how Greek democracy differs from American democracy. What do they mean by "our democracy?"

[@humayunkaisar3579]

Does it have any relation with Troy !!!

[@maxsonthonax1020]

Literally totally different. Calling any modern respresentative forms of government "democracy" is an absolute joke. Inherently propagandistic from inception.

[@TenOrbital]

Would be useful because classical concepts of democracy and republic heavily influenced the founders, negatively in my view.

[@grantschiff7544]

​@@TenOrbitalAthens got democracy and proceeded to wage war after war. It was a sad start.

[@stupidminotaur9735]

Suggested topic that weird roman swimming techiach that was found in a Ruins in Soviet union. And it worked it involves tieing hands . And only using your feet.

[@duanewirdel-xe3hv]

?

[@stupidminotaur9735]

@@duanewirdel-xe3hv roman ruins in Soviet union, times

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

I think we should keep in mind that there were several trojan wars. The "homeric" one around 1200 BCE, as the greeks gave the date, and a later one involving the sea people. David Rohl, in his book "A Test of Time", suggests that the egyptian chronology should be shortened by roughly 300 years, and so the events with Ramses III and the sea people might have occurred around 900 BCE.

[@veronicalogotheti1162]

They found 14 troys

[@dp6003]

Definitely Greece ???

[@skydivingcomrade1648]

Algorithm sacrifice

[@kingofbithynia]

There was probably a civil war or a war of succession and Greeks supported one side and Hittites supported Alexandu

[@floriankociu7251]

🦅🇦🇱🦅 Troy

[@floriankociu7251]

BRVTVS of Troy and his son Albani,Brutothrum->Butrint 🦅🇦🇱🦅 is the Troy

[@jperez7893]

i have found this interesting channel suggesting Historical Troy was in Eupatoria near the Amazon city of Themyscira on the Black Sea southern coast kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6utapRtpJ6lbpI. he has also put forward quite detailed arguments of hittite chronology and mediterranean civilization chronology being off 332 years based on astronomical arguments. would you be willing to check his claims? he has other rather claims that are quite remote but his ancient chronology and ancient site claims seem well grounded

[@scottmccrea1873]

Historically accurate? The Illiad is the version created by 8th century poets about 12th century events. As with most such works, they tell us far more about the authors' time than the events purportedly described. Much as the _Morte D'Arthur_ describes Malory's anarchic age and not 6th century Britain. Not only the 8th century version of 12th century events as refracted through an Athenian lense and then translated into English, a language that didn't exist back then.

[@tbq011]

Hittites ethno- topo- and theonyms are greek !

[@stollinroned5090]

Achilles was definitely on coke

[@samsonsoturian6013]

They only had wine back then

[@kersebleptes1317]

Like Captain America! "Geez, Cap, I think they just gave you coke!"

[@marjae2767]

So are you using van Oosten's theory that the Odyssey contains sailing directions from Britain, to the Caribbean, to Florida/Hades, and back?

[@tsemayekekema2918]

​@@marjae2767Florida??

[@marjae2767]

@@tsemayekekema2918 There are a lot of fringe ideas about trans-Atlantic contacts. Some people claim that, because of nicotine and coc found on Egyptian mummies, then someone in the area must have had contact with the Americas at the time. It's probably just contamination in the 19th and/or 20th centures. So if someone really thought Achilles was on coc, then they might well think someone in the area "must" have had contact with the Americas at the time. And van Oosten's idea ties in with Homer. I'm not aware of others which involve Homer. And van Oosten's does put the Underworld in Florida.

[@ChalcolithicPrizim]

Woohoo, 1st!

[@dubuyajay9964]

So Hittites fled to England and Wales, integrated with the native Celts and became the ancestors of King Arthur? 🤯😱

[@user-gs2wb2lp1v]

Dear Mike, your work is incredible. It looks to me you have gone too deep for history’s funs to understand. I will try to make it simple for people. In my knowledge these histories or epics have been started to be written in Sumerian time and followed by Hittites time and followed by Paleo-Illyrian one or Bronze era. Homer made only translation from earliest histories and changed the names. Same with religious books which were written before they were created after AD. Also the Iliad and Odyssey are based on vague real historical events and actual historical characters and also they are transpired hundreds of years before Homer even lived, so it is a history that has morphed into mythology. It is fanny that today Greeks don’t understand Homer language. This language likes more with Illyrian, Pellasgian and Messapian or Albanian today.

[@panagiotis7946]

the Greeks understand very well the language of Homer from the non-existent historical Albanians

[@Charlie-hp2oh]

i dont get it. Why are they wearing helmets while their testicles are flapping around?

[@bloeddorstigbeest]

They cared more for heads...

[@nikosatsaves3141]

No. End of story. An atlantean - hittite war more probable. Derks.

[@deiansalazar140]

Lol 😂 you're seriously disregarding scholarly research and debate you are completely ignorant and frankly your attitude reveals your ignorance.

[@NoahBodze]

If there was, then the Hittites had it coming. They know why.