Leagues of Votann Competitive List Analysis EP7

[@jsebert44]

Hello! Thanks for the video breakdown of my list. I've been playing a version of it for a while and I think the new data slate leaned into its strengths. -Thundkin were mid-board bullies and started on the table each game. They were my MVPs each game (when I shot them at the right thing. High toughness monsters aren't the greatest target) -Both squads of Zerks were in one fort and that one parked near the middle and traded. My “party bus” - Rapid Ingress Ax Champ/Hearthguard every single game to pressure my opponent's weak side objective forcing them to commit resources away from middle to hold. - The Drukari list was a super nasty double Tantulus list that was an absolute nail-biter. We played cat and mouse for the first three turns. - Chaos Knight's loss came down to failing a four-inch re-rollable charge with my Zerks. Tough loss, but a fun game against a great opponent. Thunderkyn picked up four dogs. -The Nids list was Unending Swarm. As you highlight, my list has the volume to deal with it - I'm glad you highlighted the ‘reactivity’ of this. That is one of its strengths imo. - Plasmablades are better into C’tan imo, which I knew I'd run into.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hey Jonathan, thanks so much for taking time to comment and for sharing this incredible breakdown! Theorizing only gets me so far and so it is always super helpful to see how the list actually played in practice haha. -I truthfully have minimal experience with Thunderkin so I never even considered starting them on the board because I was concerned with the slow movement/low range. I never liked them because I felt coming in from reserves was too risky with regards to getting proper angles, but thinking about it now I can definitely see how they could be significantly more impactful with proper staging towards mid table. You just get way more access to different targets. Did you ever feel like they were too vulnerable moving on the board? This is admittedly the one unit I don't have a ton of experience playing with but I just ordered the iron master and another squad so I will definitely be trying this out! -I love the idea of the party bus carrying berserks. I'm so used to taking HG in them I forgot they can actually fit all 10 of the smaller guys at once! Really interesting design choice especially since the HLF is arguably going to be replacing some sagitaurs in most lists. You basically get a 2 for 1 transport and keep both flexible squads right where you need them to be. This offers a perfect solution to those looking to reduce the # of sagitaurs in their lists while still bringing those angry trading berserks. I'll make sure to call this combo out in my HLF analysis video! -The Drukhari match was definitely the one I was most excited to analyze. It looked like a super tight game and it sounds like the reactivity of your list allowed you to edge out favorable trades, or at the very least, respond to each threat accordingly. Congrats on the win! -Thanks for clarifying the knight matchup for me. This definitely makes more sense when we consider the thunderkin starting on the board. -100% agree on reactivity being a pro and I'm happy I ultimately changed my mind in the video lol -I have to ask, but how did you feel about the plasma blades vs gauntlets? Thanks again for taking the time to share all of this man, I learned a bunch of valuable information and can't wait to try some of this out! And of course, congratulations on the amazing placing

[@jsebert44]

I didn't notice a big drop-off from gauntlets to blades. I also don't view the Hearthguard as a single-phase damage dealer. With the EChamp’s mortal on charge, they turn into a three-phase damage burst that can take don't most things from light to medium. The Thunderkyn can take a beating IF you position them well. They are slow, only a 23 inch threat range, but they make a no-fly zone for infantry and vechiles which puts your opponent in a pickle. With the Ironmaster they get the cogs to soak up wounds and T6 3+ W/ three wounds the squad forces my opponent to commit something big. If I can keep them in cover w/ void armor they often survive mostly intact and end up being the cheese in my trap to draw out my opponent's heavy hitters, which frees the Hekatons up to counter and then have control of the board turns 4 and 5.

[@VotannVersus40K]

@@jsebert44 Thanks John this has left me with A LOT to consider. I really like how you used the thunderkin. They sound like they perfectly fit what I've felt my list lacked - being a "no fly zone or eat 6d6 overwatch shots on 5s". I am super excited to try them out in my next game

[@jsebert44]

Best of luck!

[@Urkhster]

Possible interview video on the horizon??? Maybe??? Maybe???

[@christopherwhaley5655]

Thunderkyn are incredibly strong at 75 pts, they needed a small points increase. I am shocked that HearthGuard got a so low point increase considering how many times I see 20-30. Now Hearthkyn should have gotten a 10 point drop to encourage more being brought.

[@NBeaver-bx4yl]

Hekatons are amazing gun platforms. I have been bringing 2 in each game. In most my games I still have both left and the bad majority got at least 1 left. Won around 20 games with that list and only lost 1 in an open field( forgot to place more than 3 terrain pieces, but said fk it) and they got killed by 2 hammerheads, but dealt some good damage before going down, killing 1 of the hammerheads and 5 crisis

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hey Beaver, I totally agree with you. So far, I have never brought less than two to a game and I am always happy with how they perform. I tried making a new list post dataslate with only 1, but I honestly can't see myself doing it. I love them as a platform and just a nice durable tank to park on the board. What list have you been having success with post data slate?

[@NBeaver-bx4yl]

@@VotannVersus40K Post dataslate I have only done 1 game today. Its been against Hypercrypt necrons. Hekatons werent of much use against all the immortals and Ctans. but thats perfectly ok. My hearthguards just cleared the floor with everything haha. I got: 2Hekatons 2 Sagitaurs 15 Hearthguards(10 with khal and 5 with champ in the hekaton) 20 Warriors 5 beserks 3 pioneers 6 thunderkyn Heroes: Ironmaster(grim demeanor, for some support fire vs ctans, but normally its on my khal), Khal( apraising glaire) and champion(wayfarers) Its the same list I have been running pre-dataslate, but I have cut my grimnyr out of it. Had 15 loose points, so with that I dropped at 2000 right on.

[@NBeaver-bx4yl]

@@VotannVersus40K I 100% agree about bringing 2 instead of 1. 1 just doesnt feel enough. its tanky, but the opponent always has 1 to 2 units that can kill it well. So it often just dies. But when I run 2, he doesnt know which one to shoot and even if he kills 1. It gives me enough time to snipe out his anti-tank. That leaves the second Hekaton basically free for the rest of the game. If I can take out his massive anti-tank before loosing 1. Its often a wrap. Mid strenght weapons just cannot deal with a Hekaton with void armor. So as soon as I take out his few AP-4 guns. Its free hekaton time haha. I am not a competitive player, I havent done any tournaments, as there are few in my area and I have only been playing for like 8-9 months. But my local club has a lot of tournament players there. I also live with someone who is also super into warhammer, we do a couple games a week between the two of us. Just has had massive success with the leagues for the moment, so sharing what i found works ! So what I say isnt gospell at all, but its my experience over around 30 games with the leagues in 10th.

[@VotannVersus40K]

​@@NBeaver-bx4yl That's great! Quite similar to mine honestly. Im looking to try this once my thunderkin arrive: Iron master appraising glare E champ Grim D E champ 2x10 warriors 3x Sag 6x thunderkin gravs 3x thunderkin gravs 5x HG hammers and volks 5x HG plasma blades and volks (maybe good into drukhari?) 2x HLF good stuff 2x3 pioneers

[@rumkugal8584]

nice Video, pls more😃

[@Kalemvir1]

3rd/34? Making the ancestors proud! Also, can you imagine a future transport with a firing deck? "So that was my Hylas, now for the 6 vulkanites..."

[@VotannVersus40K]

Ahh yes, a firing deck to surely please the ancestors!!

[@PoYi-fi1zt]

I got a suggestion to make. The pie chart font should increase by at least 300% so it is visible if I try to read.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Thanks Poyi ill definitely increase it for the next video. Appreciate the feedback!

[@PalmerDemetrius]

I'm surprised were not seeing 15-18 bike lists. I think bikes are great

[@Urkhster]

I really wish i could buy a second hekaton, but im limiting myself to 1/3 of the army at a time. I currently have 1/3 of the max allotment for each unit, and im not buying the second third until i have the first fully painted.

[@VotannVersus40K]

That’s a great approach. I tried making bite sized investments so I can manage the painting part of the hobby a little easier… but then I miraculously ended up with two Xmas boxes and I’ve been playing catch-up ever since

[@StarkMaximum]

Do we not have lists for the armies the Votann played? i think it's weird that we have the Votann list but not the others. I appreciate the insight on each matchup but it feels very theoretical, like "this list matches up well against this one specific list that I assume this faction played". What if there was a niche choice that resulted in an odd interaction that changed the game?

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hi Stark, thanks for your feedback on this. It's a fair callout. When I initially began this series I wanted the focus to be on the votann list itself and the matchups second (and tbf, a lot of people only watch for the list). I quickly realized there was a ton of value in examining the matchups as to why a list might work within the specific context of the event. In full transparency, it is simply not viable for me to have a run down of each opponents list in the video at this time. I do recognize the importance of context and so I try to go into greater detail with one of the matchups per video, typically on the army I am the most comfortable reviewing (ex: chaos knights and drukhari in this video) I keep things general enough to identify the typical meta playstyles you might encounter against these armies and why I think the list performs well (ex: tyranids). But generally speaking, everything is speculation. Even my list analysis when you consider that just because something is included in the list, I might not be correctly identifying why or how it was used (ex: I now know the thunderkin always started on the board and the 2 berserks always in one HLF, etc). As such, I try to keep the speculations as realistic and logical as possible, calling out different combinations and use cases as needed. I would strongly recommend checking out the events covered on BCP after the video if you want additional details on the opponent lists to draw greater context. Perhaps I can start including a link to the event in the description of these videos so people can more easily find the log. Thanks for watching!

[@PalmerDemetrius]

need more of this please

[@matthewrentenberg1466]

Couldn’t the pilot run the non-deep striking hearthguard in strategic reserves instead of in the hekaton? That way he can get all of his slow moving infantry off the field and into a transport.

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hey so that's a totally possible move to make during deployment, however, I am reluctant to say the HG would do well coming out of strategic reserves mainly because it is a very strong tool that not only benefits from disembarking from the HLF, but also wants to be in the middle of the table. An unfortunate reality with strategic reserves is that if your opponent screens you out, they may delay the HG entering or outright force them to commit to a less optimal entry

[@jb_boom]

Nice video, this is a list that I can run since it is literally all the unit that that own! lol - Hey, wondering if you would be able to make some battle reports! :) that would be awesome but I bet it is a lot of work...

[@VotannVersus40K]

That’s great! Feels like an incredibly strong list and gives you a ton of play. Regarding the battle reports, all I’ll say for now is 😉

[@2jkelly]

I had a 1.5k tournament Was only 16 and 3 games each but did win 3 games Had a khal lead 10 hearth guart Had a champ in hekaton with 5 hearthgurad 2 sag to spit 10 man warrior one unit of pioneers Beat necron canoptek pretty easily Daemons mostly Khorne and was close And dark eldar they are so fragile...

[@VotannVersus40K]

That's awesome, great job! I am considering reducing my list to only 2 sagituars, but I still need to do some testing. I love the hekaton too much to not take 2

[@2jkelly]

@@VotannVersus40K I think people see them as a bigger threat than they actually are overall. A bloodthirst did cut his way through two of them and still managed to take that game lol though they really nailed the doom stalkers of the Necrons

[@mr.andmrs.fluffy1215]

I have a question about leagues of votann in general, would it be possible for you to make a general how to play them video or recommend one

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hi Fluffy, that’s a great suggestion! I’m currently working on a unit analyses video series for our model range but can definitely make a general play guide for our index rules after that

[@Addycomedy2420]

I did alot of practice rolls with the hearthguard and volk and its not worth it. I average about 5 or 6 mortals but have often rolled 1-3. I kill too much with the 10 man grenades to separate them. Ill have to in-game play and the added distance to charge could be nice but they're much better at shooting than melee

[@VotannVersus40K]

Hey there, so I covered a full shooting profile comparison in my last video which you might find interesting, comparing averages: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZKXdqWKZp1meZY Generally, the plasma is stronger into anything without an invuln/low to medium T. The volkanites are interesting because while the dmg is lower, they simply have better all around play because the devs ignore toughness and saves. One thing I forgot to mention in the video is that the longer range on the plasma can come clutch if you are being screened of move blocked, so another consideration there

[@StarkMaximum]

Sorry, but "i roll 1-3 a lot" is not a reason to deem a weapon "not worth it". If you roll a lot of low numbers, then all guns are not worth it because you won't hit shit. That is how the game works.

[@Addycomedy2420]

@@StarkMaximum did I say not worth it? I said splitting them 2 5 mans with the re rolls coming out of the Hekaton isn't worth it. Not the weapon itself. But then again I didn't clarify thats what I ment so my bad