Leak ALERT. Are You Misplaying All Your MULTIWAY Flops?

[@Its__Good]

Chris never asks how James is doing 😢

[@splitsuit]

I'll have a stern talking to him about that.

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) haha I didn't even realize!

[@nestam6844]

Every home game poker table I play with more than 6 people at least 5 go to the flop. So this is a very helpful video

[@DavidSmith-rv2hw]

too much limping, not enough pre flop raises?

[@nestam6844]

@@DavidSmith-rv2hw my friends hate me for always raising so I don’t think so. But I honestly don’t know, people just want to see the flop and be involved.

[@DavidSmith-rv2hw]

make them pay, higher pre flop raises. if 5 people are seeing the flop regularly, it suggests the cost to see the flop is too low. 2 random cards being dealt, not everyone has a good hand.

[@splitsuit]

Cheers Nesta!

[@ThePokerBank]

@@nestam6844 David Smith nailed it, you can try increasing the size of your raises till you get fewer callers.

[@StreetSoulLover]

We have to call flop, we can't get fancy on this flop because the SPR is so low, by raising we are getting in to a postion where we have to shove turn. Something I always remember with live low stakes games is that anyone who raises post flop is seldom folding at any point int he hand - 95% of the time it's going to showdown. I tend to treat boards like this, 1x Flush draw + 1x OESD a little bit like monotone boards where nobody folds if they have the nut draw. We want to try and pile money in on later streets as the run out gets safer and safer. Getting it in on the flop is a mistake as sooooo many draws and made hands are coming along with us. I would probably have bet $50 into this board for that reason - Pot Geometry is going to be important on later streets as if the turn bricks we then want to go 2/3rd pot to squeeze out a lot of the draws - if we get called on a blank turn to that sizing I would give up on river

[@gehmanator]

It’s interesting the heuristic you used to analyze this hand: a very macro-level approach of what we do with our entire range in this position. I learned from this approach the benefits of small sizing, of which I’ve been skeptical. That being said, I feel the theoretically sound approach got a bit in the way of analyzing this exact hand. As another poster already stated, you did not go enough into villain’s range. For example, I think a TAG has all KQ here AND bets them this way on the flop. And because he’s a TAG, we can define his range fairly well: KTs, KQ, TT, 22, QJs, A-Xdd. Also, no discussion of the texture of our AK, ie, we don’t block A-Xdd? I can see hero deciding to check-evaluate, then realizing after the flop action he’s ahead of CO’s range and value raising. Sizing is an issue on flop raise, but otherwise I like hero’s play as an exploitative adjustment to live play.

[@cdjensen0108]

Great video as this is a tricky spot that comes up often. I wish, however, there was more discussion on what happens after you make that smaller C-bet. If everyone called the pre-flop raise you can imagine several players calling $25-$30 on the flop (the QQ hand for example, the draws, the weaker King). If everyone calls, then what on the turn (now you have an even more bloated pot and everyone has a great price to keep drawing against you (if they're not ahead already)). Or, if cutoff does his $100 raise over your C-bet, then what? Whenever I've played around with these smaller C-bets OOP I find it just increases the number of tricky situations post. Granted, I admit I need a better understanding of how to navigate this type of tree. FWIW, I probably would have check raised shoved the flop here.

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) it does increase the number of tricky spots, but more so for our opponents than us! With the smaller bet size we are required to win the pot at a reduced frequency, we can play our hands straight forwardly, check QQ, bet small against with top pairs / draws and check mixed. Check fold to large bets a lot, etc.

[@cdjensen0108]

@@ThePokerBank Thanks Chris - appreciate the reply.

[@Nietzsches-Disciple]

@@ThePokerBank dont we rule out 2 pair+ when were not raised since the small bet could be a draw? Cant we turn barrel large with top top+ after cbetting 1/4 pot? Theyll have more implied odds too since we bet small on flop and it looks a little bluffy to some to bet small flop big on turn. Id also bet my draws large on turn, 100-125% pot, after someone bets small on flop and checks turn. I know thats unusual but were inducing bluffs from aggressive opponents. What sizing is good on turn vs 2 callers? 1/3 pot? 1/2 pot? Cuz Id like to go pot after not getting raised on flop. Then river check call vs blanks and check raise wgen the ace comes.

[@pot_kivach160]

There is nothing tricky here. You must play your hand the way it supposed to be played (large C-bet!). H tricked himself by the poor flop decision. Checked flop, then Inflating the pot, reducing psr to less than 1, made turn bluff impossible, giving V good pot odds on turn…

[@paulg2642]

Interesting suggestions for the proper line to take. I see how the actual line taken does not get A7dd to make a mistake, but I think the same is probably true for cbetting small. The suggested cbet of $25-$35 bet gives A7dd the odds to call the flop and may even induce a healthy raise that would be difficult for AK to call. I think a cbet on the flop in the range of $70 gets the players behind to play their hands in a more straightforward way, with calls tending to be in the weaker pairs/flush draw parts of their range and raises being in the two-pair/sets parts of their range.

[@fluffysheap]

I am rarely making a little bet multi way in a game like this. 2-5 live players aren't complete chumps but they aren't galaxy brains either. Players at this level are just not thinking this deeply. Nobody is thinking about betting consistently with ranges, at best what you are doing is representing the hand that your opponent actually has. In practice, if you make a small bet, everyone is going to call and you are just making a bloated pot with a ton of draws. With this flop, with so many players in the pot, your main opponent is on a draw. With the preflop action, nobody has AA or KK so the only made hands that beat you are TT and 22. Probably, nobody has TT either, but it could happen. But there are a lot of draws. That's what makes this a bad check raise. Once you check raise, you're not only pot committed, you don't have enough ammunition left to deny the drawing odds on the turn. I mean, mathematically, you do, but the thing is that from his perspective you could also be drawing with QJ or mayyyybe Qxdd so his ace has some showdown value even if he misses his draw. Plus at $5 live people are more likely to play with money in the pot even if the odds are slightly against them. So, realistically, once he calls the check raise, he's not going away. So, you can open the betting with a big bet, and make all the draws pay for bad odds. Or you can check, everyone will check or someone with a draw will bet small, you won't be in a great position but at least it's cheap and you will know where you are because it's a simple matter of made hand vs all the draws. Or you can check raise all in (that's what's going to happen anyway) and have your opponent fold or make a really obvious odds mistake by calling. This is one of the most common situations that you will face at $5 live. I wish I could play it all the time having TPTK! That's when it's the easiest to play. As opposed to having second pair, second draw, the draw with bad reverse implied odds, or all the other situations that make it hard.

[@fattymcbastard6536]

I look at this under a different light. With two suited cards on the flop vs my top pair, I'm gonna be damn sure that any flush chasers aren't going to see that turn card for cheap. A cheap bet on this flop is a terrible move- people are gonna call when it's good value. Someone holding two diamonds will call, and someone with JQ will call. Hell, pair of 10s will call for 1/4 pot bet. When all you got is top pair on the flop, and there's still 5 or 6 players involved, you simply cannot allow all of them to see the next card. It's just silly- it's only increasing your odds of losing with that many hands against you. Not only that, there's not much to read when all 5 players downstream of you call your weak-ass bet. You gotta bet this flop strong. A pot bet will likely eliminate all but one opponent, maybe two. The straight or flush chaser isn't getting the pot odds, and would be wise to fold, so your callers are the ones who have a piece of the flop. If you're not raised- you can rule out your opponent having trips (why slow-play a pocket pair that hits the flop?), and you can be pretty sure he hasn't got 2-pair as well. An opponent with tens & deuces for instance would be wise to pin you for top pair, and move to protect his easily beaten 2-pair by raising. So if you had two callers to see the turn, you can pin them with high pairs.

[@amyhamilton1536]

This type of analysis video is awesome! Thank you! I have watched so many different people and you are by far m favorite - smart and easy to follow!

[@compteofficiel4112]

i think you should c-bet for a few reasons here... to thin the field of weird, hard-to-spot stuff like random deuces and small pairs, gut shots, backdoors, and also to get people to define their hands and just to show strength

[@tylermokarry9731]

I couldn't disagree more with the small c-bet with your entire range idea on this board; Not only do we allow our opponents to realize their equity easier facing a cbet of 25 but we also will induce a fair amount of bluffs from the players behind, we will be pushed off the best hand a decent amount, Even with AK here we are not loving life if we cbet 25 and someone pops it up, You may level yourself into making mistakes with such a bluff inducing size, I don't think it's terrible to size down on the flop with a hand like JJ or QQ and size up with a hand like AK; i think being overly concerned with balance can be detrimental to ones strategy , balance has it's importance but i think it was taken too far in this instance, in conclusion , i like a cbet of 1/2 - 2/3 psb otf given the texture and number of players; this is just my opinon

[@michaelchung1526]

I think that they are pointing out that is in a 6-way pot, the odds of AKo being strong enough to bet 1/2 to 2/3s seems low while also protecting your other holdings. The fact that it is 6 way cuts down odds of a pure bluff taking place. Just as AK is uncomfortable betting large, the odds for a bluff to get through unchallenged is low as well so the chances of you getting pushed off with a total airball is unlikely. Given that Hero holds TPTK the only made hands that will raise and beat him are two pair hands and sets. The other hands that are raising are likely to be diamond draws. As mentioned by Chris, weak holdings just have to fold unless closing the action so a small bet lets you clear out hands that have no businesses being in the pot for cheap and if someone calls and has you beat, you didn't bloat the pot and have more room to maneuver. If they call and have a diamond draw, you are unlikely to lose your entire stack should the 3rd diamond peel off and you face a lot of heat. Does having more room to maneuver mean room for one to make mistakes like potentially folding the best hand? Yes, but it also gives you the chance to make more profitable decisions or to minimize your losses as well.

[@tylermokarry9731]

@@michaelchung1526 I don't disagree with this way of thinking on a different board, on a wet and semi connected board we can bet large and get called by weaker KX, SD's, and FD's while giving them a poor price to chase, Cbetting large into this many players is always going to be a strong range , but that doesn't mean that we don't want some protection on this type of board texture just because we won't have that many bluffs

[@pot_kivach160]

Agreed. Small flop bet can only make all 5 of them call!! They’ll swarm just alike flies on a shyte! 🤣And then it is a complete wasting of the money, as without huge improvement (which is unlikely after this flop!) H will get whacked by the river, for sure. . I don:t think anyone would dare to,bluff into 5 opponents. No way! . Solution: pot size or overbet on flop would made all of them - except Diamond nuts draw - to fold. Then a turn shove would finish him off, too. End of story. Everything else is grinding the teeth.

[@kevindavis6093]

Just play defense. His hand was strong enough to keep the lead. If you get raised you play accordingly. You still just have 1 pair in a multi way pot

[@marko514]

Hey James, what about shove after turn card 8 of spades? So you are first to act after the turn card. There is 820$ in the flop. With that board, you have top pair with top kicker. If we put CO on 2 diamond cards, with bez size of 405$ into 820$, we are giving him right around the pot odds he needs to make a call, so wouldn't a shove or a slightly bigger raise (70-75% of the pot) be a bigger option in here? If so, CO wouldn't get the right pot odds and maybe would've folded on the turn card. Thanks!

[@chazsmith20]

I think they're being a bit hard on him. He did get villain to put his entire stack on just a flush draw on the turn and villain just got lucky. I DO agree that it was better to make a small bet rather than check and yes check shove was WAY better than his small raise. But, honestly, I don't think the hand would have played out any differently. That flush draw wasn't going anywhere. In fact, he was getting better odds with 2 streets then 1 street.

[@Lina-zq7re]

A7 diamonds made a big mistake here. He was 36% after the flop and 20% at the river. If he played this hand 100 times the same way he would be way under $$$. If AK played this hand and ran this out 100 times he would be making $$$. No one will constantly chase the flush with diamonds on this big of a bet without losing a lot of money over time.

[@jacobsmith6955]

I think in a $2/$5 game I often like to c-bet something like $150 here. Most $2/$5 live players just aren't thinking deeply enough about ranges for me to worry about protecting the weaker parts of my range later when I overbet with my biggest pairs. They're also calling the overbet with basically all of their draws. It's hard for anybody to have anything that's ahead on the flop other than a set of deuces or the 6 combos of K10, so whether I'm calling a shove back after my overbet will depend on the read, but only a very tight player gets a fold if it's likely to go heads-up.

[@downieduck2414]

CHECK CALL THE FLOP - LEAD OUT ON SAFE CARD OR CHECK RAISE TURN ON SAFE CARD

[@thaThRONe]

The check raise play makes sense heads up or maybe two other players. With more than 3 I think you have to cbet almost all the time. Just to get a understanding of where you are in the hand.

[@CertifiedSlamboy]

Betting to "get an understanding where you are in the hand" sounds like a really bad idea.

[@thaThRONe]

@@CertifiedSlamboy I disagree. On multi way action with 3 or more callers you really have no idea what other players can be holding. That's at least 3 ranges you have to guesstimate. By checking you run the risk of giving equity to all kinds of ranges that you could have gotten a fold from.

[@syp123]

me: this is a great spot to be in james: this is terrible and awkward me: this is terrible and awkward

[@lovetitleist69]

Best video yet from ya. Great logistics.

[@compteofficiel4112]

I watched a few of your videos in the past and didn't really like them....however, I think this format is fabulous and I'm resubbing for sure...keep it up, James thanks, really good stuff

[@outragedamerican1149]

If you lead out with a small bet on this flop, what is the play if you get raised? Also, what is the play on the turn if you get two callers?

[@SilvrSeven]

love the content.the check shove on the flop after theres 360$ in, is underrated here. if i planned on check calling, and the CO bets this big AND theres the sb flatting with a wide range of suited hands. i would feel this has become ''unfortunately'' a check jam. it feels like many good things can happen despite the vulnerable top pair. CO might fold k-q ok but we are OOP and the sb is most certainly drawing strongly to call 100$, denying equity has value as well. the possibility of getting ''frustrated called'' by the SB strong draw is live as well so there are some mistakes left to be made. perceived as LAG by the TAG makes the shove even better if he holds k-q he cannot fold anymore almost..even K-J without the J of diamonds..u gonna fold that vs LAG after the pot gets this big on the flop?mistakes can be made for sure here byjamming

[@limuwaa4623]

If CO has only 9 outs with the flush draw at the turn, and he gets pott odds of 3:1, doesnt he have 20% equity but he needs 25% to make the call on the turn profitable?

[@kevingarchen1]

Here's my stab at the math, would love to be corrected if I am wrong to learn as well! I'm assuming you got the 20% equity with 9 outs and 45 possible draws? But it happens twice so the odds are actually 20% and then slightly more than 20%. To calculate it, it would be 1 - odds of neither hitting (the opposite of at least one hitting). So functionally (disregarding the slight change in odds on the second draw), the odds of neither hitting are 80%*80%, or 64%. Thus, the odds of at least one hitting, is 36% equity.

[@jonathansantiagorei]

That is correct, long term this is a losing call from a numbers stand point but in live poker, once villain calls that x/r on the flop they are never folding turn.

[@splitsuit]

If CO can put any QJ type combos in hero's range, CO's equity can hit the requirement quickly =)

[@mikeh7917]

I think the framing of the question ignores the chances, in the CO'S mind, that hero has ANY bluffs/semi semibluffs in his x/r range. Which bluffs may hero have? QJ of diamonds for sure...and other straight or flush draw combos? Maybe not enough to make the call for sure profitable...but enough to make it close, or at least not a much of a mistake.

[@ortheother]

Was dealt AKo 4 times in zoom table during the first 8mins of this video. 5/5, will watch again!

[@paalsandmo9728]

Why is the pot 4way in the first place? Because we are almost certainly playing against loose and bad live players. I’m throwing GTO out of the window here, and I’m going for $65 with KQ+, draws and maybe some 2nd and 3rd pairs with backdoor flush draw which can potentially work well as a triple barrel bluff. I might go for a check/raise with the nut flush and combo draws. Even if they know I’m capped at KJ after checking, they still have to worry about bluffing into 4 other players.

[@fhd3715]

Usually with players that make these kind of mistakes, their reads on their opponents are not very accurate either

[@waiifii22]

Love the format!! Keep em coming please!

[@weazle5553]

Wouldn't be betting 2/3 of the pod be the right call? I just started playing serious poker a few weeks ago but my reasoning is this: On a dry board like K82 rainbow i would have bet a small amount because it is unlikly that i am getting called by many hands, but since there could be flush/straight opportunities betting big would ensure that people do not get the last 2 cards for free -> either they fold a potential straight/flush or they have to pay a lot to keep going against their odds which is good for us.

[@splitsuit]

I think it's fair to assume decent draws aren't folding on this flop, even against a 2/3 PSB. So the next consideration is what is your plan when possible draws complete on the turn?

[@weazle5553]

@@splitsuit so my standard strategy i came up with in general against flush draws is bet 2/3 on flop then 2/3 on river if the flush doesn't hit and give him a chance to bluff on the river. If the flush actually hits i would check/ fold aginst big bets, calling against small bets. Even if he would bet big every time in this scenario resulting in me folding, the Ev is positve. The problem with this strategy is that i do not know if the EV is still positive considering KT,22 and straight hands (i may try to calculate that when i am on my pc). The other problem is that i have no idea what i would do if someome reraises at some point. If i call i am super vulnerable to two pairs and complete straights (if the raise is on the turn/river in that case) but folding seems to be a bad call too because if they actually have a straight/flush chance they might want to bluff. I guess i would decide by how agressive the villan is and if there could be an already complete straight at that point. Does this make any sence?

[@splitsuit]

@@weazle5553 I would heavily consider exploring if the EV is *actually* positive when you check/fold against every large bet when the draws improve. There are some examples of similar spots explored in my Postflop Workbook fwiw: www.splitsuit.com/postflop-poker-workbook The overall strategy you laid out is commonly used, so it makes sense in that regard. That said, the solvers are liking a static 2/3 PSB flop cbet less and less fwiw.

[@chrisbaines5152]

Yeah, you're cooked so often when you check raise all in on that flop, but if you're going to check raise, it should be a jam.

[@splitsuit]

Especially against a TAG with no other info given, yup.

[@edb7742]

Doesn't that typically end up with folds (no profit) or calls, in which case you're beat?

[@tiagomota4734]

@@edb7742 exactly ...you give him the opportunity to play pefect poker....

[@MrJabbafett]

Is there any merit to check shoving here, or is that an overplay? You're ahead of everything but AA KK TT and 22 which I guess could be here in a single raise pot. You have blockers to two of those hands. And you fold out all of the straight draws and a lot of the flush draws. Calling the 3 bet puts you in a really awkward mw bloated pot OOP, and there are tons of cards you don't want to see.

[@norsekongsvinger7846]

Hey guys, great content as always. This is a brand new concept to me for sure. Is this applicable to only cash game strategy? Please always stress this point... Also, if the board was not two suited would you have the same approach here?

[@ruzreuben9755]

Hi.Would like to know why jam in the turn just because you are "commited". Isn't it possible that after he calls check raise we are behind and no longer bet for vaue

[@mike2982]

Thanks for the flop advice!

[@ThePokerBank]

You're very welcome Mike!

[@johnmcashill9919]

Thank you for the video, it was interesting for me, just one question, on the turn, after hero shoved, the cut off payed the shove with a nut flush draw, so his equity was around 21% assuming hero doesn't have an ace 50% of the time (seen as lag as he said at the beginning of the video) but he will always have top pair or 2nd pair plus draw (straight or flush) as he checked raised on a 5 way pot. So was it a bad call (EV-) as he should need around 25% equity to pay that shove?

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) tough to say exactly, obviously he can shove some draws here and occasional bluffs so it's not correct to just compare it to top pair. We also need to worry about our entire range, it's probably very close.

[@johnmcashill9919]

@@ThePokerBank OK thank you Chris!

[@compteofficiel4112]

the pot odds for the flush were not correct, but with the ace being good sometimes, and also occasionally hero semi-bluffing a big draw, it was probably about break-even... honestly i could find a fold there since you don't know for sure if all your flush outs are clean...hero definitely could have a set already.

[@johnmcashill9919]

@@compteofficiel4112 OK thanks for your insight!

[@stevenstrauss759]

Love your videos. Could a case be made for c-bet pot bet on the flop? Perhaps an over bet? $150?

[@royalflush8173]

Good question but you would be thing into too many people

[@whimsical_ninja]

I'm not sure we can restrict CO range to "nuttier" just because he bets big on the flop. He shouldn't have any KK or 22, maybe some TT but those are getting 3bet a lot preflop if he is indeed a TAG player, he might well be folding KTo even multiway - this feels like a lot of diamond draws here. More worried by the button who has a lot more KTo. I prefer a lead on the flop, plenty of worse Kx hands to call, deny equity to gutshots and flush draws.

[@parapilot09]

James & Chris. Assuming against U/K opponents, you go with your respective bets of 1/4 or 1/5 pot on the flop and the CO raises 3.5-4 X and its folded around to you, what is your plan with your range? Are you bet folding OOP with AK and your OE straight draws and jamming KK, 1010, K10s AXd & QJd only? What about if you have AdKx or AdAx or AhAc? There was lots that you didn't cover in this hand analysis, when you talk about playing your whole range.

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) with our smaller bet we're never folding AK to normal sized raises (and all the stronger hands). Way more stack depth so we will be calling the majority of our range and only 3-betting the flop with a very small range of TT and strong Axdd + straight draws (and only a few).

[@parapilot09]

@@ThePokerBank Thanks for replying Chis 👍🏼. I think by calling a raise on the flop, we are put in a very difficult spot OTT, when our hand doesn't improve and we see a card that favours our opponents range. I would love to see you and James do a part 2 of this hand analysis to cover turn play (and beyond) , if that's possible?

[@grindix]

why would a very small c-bet (25$) be the right play on such a draw heavy board? don't u wanna charge draws and in terms of overall range wont u have bluffs yourself like Axdd that you want to start applying pressure with? + nobody can really have the nuts (KK TT) other than you on that flop with no 3 bets pre.

[@3betmonkey]

“I can’t imagine I’m good here when I raise and get called” Has he ever played live low stakes?

[@paulg6274]

As played check rip all in the flop

[@pokergeniusordonkey6517]

Great analysis. I like the small c-bet discussion. I might even consider the super nitty option. I hate this situation. Even the supposed blanks might end up as coolers. The non-diamond 8, 7, 6 etc... might make a set. There are so few comfortable turn cards.

[@splitsuit]

Thanks PGoD!

[@thaThRONe]

You can't put someone on pocket 8's or below on this board and action. If you are calling 100 dollar bet and a 300 dollar raise with 8's or lower you will lose so much money.

[@pokergeniusordonkey6517]

@@thaThRONe You're right. Pocket 8's is unlikely. However if we check, like hero did, a villain with pocket 8's in late position might take a stab at it.

[@B0bi_007]

Isn't just cbetting this flop as the PFR the best option here? And if our bet gets raised we evaluate a fold or call?

[@compteofficiel4112]

i think so too. might as well see where we are at and occasionally take it down. how much would you c-bet? 2/3 pot?

[@B0bi_007]

@@compteofficiel4112 yes, i would do exactly that, 2/3 pot

[@JackFate61]

Now do a video on the cutoffs play on this hand.

[@heindattel3919]

Good one.💫👍 thanks for the conversation. One thing missed out alittle is your thoughts !? of facing a raise after betting as small as suggested instead of checking on the flop.

[@splitsuit]

Cheers Hein! It really depends who raises you, so that type of spidering would make this video a few hours long =)

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) I would be calling any raise after betting small by default, unless it was very large from a very tight player.

[@jeffstock79]

If you are the cutoff facing a $35 cbet, are you calling or raising? Assuming the raise to $150 which I think is the better play, are you calling with AK or folding? (probably calling, and then tough decisions on turn. I like the check raise on the flop and shove turn if a 9, or diamonds doesn't come. Alternatively, I like a large lead on the flop (closer to $100). Would be curious what the computer suggests.

[@splitsuit]

Calling the $35 and letting multiple players continue more liberally is a pretty attractive option instead of raising and letting everyone play pretty correctly

[@ThePokerBank]

(Chris here) both are fine for CO although raising wouldn't be more than 50% of the time in my estimation. The tricky part about c/raise shove safe is what do you do on the unsafe turns? You're getting crazy odds and probably can't fold... If you're just getting it in on every turn, why not shove flop is my thought process.

[@cpasa798]

You said you would make a little raise, what would you do when the CO re-raise to 170 and the bottom call?

[@karlseastrand7678]

I am presuming that if FDs like A7 are in villains range then QJs is also played this way (possibly even QJo, by bad players) and if that is right then CR the flop AI is prolly best.

[@Nietzsches-Disciple]

Were flipping vs QJs.

[@slobodanreka1088]

6:13 Finally it's not a bet size issue....

[@markcook7807]

I'm wondering if you could run the the what if scenario on the flop with the small c-bet on the flop if just CO calls. Pot is 120 if hero bets 35 and just CO calls pot is 190. How much would you bet on the turn when the 8 spades comes? You're not necessarily going to get CO off his draw but just wondering proper turn sizing with optimal flop bet you suggest heads up? Also, if button also calls flop bet what would the turn bet size be since it would be multi-way now?

[@kineahora8736]

I like this analysis.

[@dihillen]

I would shove AK and hate life and pray for the best. Both villains plays makes sense...what does hero do with just 1pair 3ways! Villains can have any 10 with a diamond draw with straight blockers,or just loads of gutters and straight draws. Just shove AK and hope you'll be hu against a draw and print your money.

[@Nietzsches-Disciple]

What about with sets? And if were on the btn with AKo does it change which sizing is best?

[@gratemusic3008]

Poker is the best when you win and the WORST when they catch the river etc

[@tomohawk52]

Is there any merit to limp/re-raising this preflop? If you know the players are going to play very wide ranges pre, then you could limp, e.g. CO makes it 25, two callers, and you re-raise to approximately 150. Makes the SPR much shallower and play post-flop OOP much easier vs probably one opponent, assuming anyone sticks around.

[@raoulduke2820]

Limp/re-raise is going to represent AA KK or AK 99% of the time. So you're telling your observant opponents what you have by doing that and they can play it accordingly. There's just not any other good hands to do that with. Sometimes I'll see people show up with a slightly wider range but it's so infrequent that it's safe to assume AA KK AK until they show you otherwise

[@ThePokerBank]

Purely exploitative play, not something you can do by default and I think it's generally hard to meet the ideal conditions without also being fairly obvious about what you're doing. When I'm playing a lot live, I find maybe 1-2 instances per month.

[@eliteexotics2209]

I think the check raise was the correct move. The cut-off bets 100 and the Button calls and it folds around to the Hero. The mistake was in the bet size. I think with the call of the button the bet size should have been $425. There is $120 pre-flop, $100 bet, $100 call and a $300 raise. That's $620 in the pot a $200 call wins $820. Plus implied odds. You only need 25% equity for the call to be correct. You have 30% equity on the flush draw alone. Plus the rare occasion it comes 77 or QJ. The Hero gave the Villian a price where they couldn't fold. The Villian probably should have shoved the flop after being and taken the pot down then. I was convinced he had TT.

[@Chris-kl3zy]

from my experience...dude fireing in a situation like this i call. turn comes and we have top 2 pair. villian fires again with more pressure and i check raise with half my stack. and they go all in with a pair of 6s and then lands the 6 on the river. swear to god this happens to me over half of the time.

[@ggum673]

I would bet 45

[@vietnamvet4533]

Long time ago, like 20 years Texas Holdem was a high card game. So with 9 players with a 20 raise maybe and it would be a long shot you would get one caller. Now everyone plays, and why, suited connectors, small pairs, suited cards, any Ace, or one face card. Add in the bluffers and you ended up with a family pot. So you can talk about it all day, and nothing is going to help you unless another K or A on the turn. Has sadly, Texas Holdem, become a lottery game, everyone gets in thinking well I may get lucky and win. But still love to play.

[@CowenJE]

6 way hero should have not checked

[@vietnamvet4533]

Yep knew it two suited cards knew some guy would be playing that, before I even got to the end of the video, so again, game of luck more then skill anymore, sadly.

[@compteofficiel4112]

anymore? huh? if you think poker is a game of luck, i want to know where you play~~

[@vietnamvet4533]

@@compteofficiel4112 All over been playing for 55 years. Not all luck of course but when everyone but me ate playing suit card etc and hitting them what would you call that?

[@compteofficiel4112]

@@vietnamvet4533 i find gambling in general to be very streaky. i often try to do a lot of pot control and other tactics to reduce variance myself, so when i do have a cold spell it isn't quite so drastic. one thing about villains "always hitting" makes me think you might be letting people draw too cheaply? who knows, but a hot streak is probably just around the corner!!

[@roryvonbrutt7302]

what is the buy in on this game.... i'm sorry I may have missed the beginning it looks like everybody's playing short stacked isn't one of the basics to be full stacked Isn't it as I saw in later on in the video he's basically playing his hand face up (by check raising) that he's got ace king correct ???

[@CertifiedSlamboy]

Buy in would be $500 to have 100BBs. So they are over 100BBs for most of the hand.

[@michaelangst6078]

I think the way he played the hand is fine and disagree with everything you two say.. king queen king jack, jack queenAce jack ace 10, ace queen...diamond draws all are hands that soft players can call here... button most of the time is not calling with a set or king 10 and would very likely raise... Glad to see the so called pros give shitty advice... Means the game is still beatable

[@royalflush8173]

I think the ace king just got a bad beat maybe he should of shoved on the flop

[@andreipaiu2827]

2 much mathematics…

[@edwardmauer7442]

I disagree with y'all, I like the raise. KK ace kicker should be ahead most of the time post flop. The larger raise size will make your opponents put you on kings, and makes it mathematically suboptimal to call that size with just draws. Further I can see weaker kings and maybe even strong tens from a splashier player continue. If anything he should've raised higher imo.

[@CertifiedSlamboy]

If someone has JQ or 2 diamonds (even with any other backdoor draw as well) - they get a great price to draw. That's not their only range though. There's also combo draws, Tx diamonds, 2 pairs etc. Raising bigger is also dangerous as you could be drawing almost dead when called. This raise makes very little sense.

[@tiagomota4734]

These things are MUCH more intresting than , how to operate fucking flopzila pro!!!!!

[@tootplox]

This video was kinda poor quality. You use ranges very abstractly and are overall very general with your analysis while making some reallly questionable reads. What is this nutted range you are talking about this board they have, the only thing you are behind is k10 k2 22 while their range is fat with straight and flush draws. I mean, throw in 10 2 in their range too and still they are draw heavy. Without using a solver and jumping back and forth and repeating the same things several times made the video very sloppy. No offense just criticism. You flipped back to the TAG note too many times without adding much more when brought in and used this ‘read’ as a crutch for good range analysis, solver, or range balancing analyses. What is the range of TAG player in the blinds and btn in theory preflop? On the flop? The comments on bet sizing were off hand and generally the way you are speaking about all of this sounds like someone who’s lacking experience (not that you are, just the way it’s presented is like bsing a 7th grade presentation about your uncles dog that died when you were 7. Sure, you know a bit about it but it’s mostly rambley. Organize the videos better by framing the context (you did this pretty well but lack of organization meant repeating too often and felt kind of lazy trying to avoid full analysis) and then walking through ranges. It took like 2/3 of the video before you talked about specific hands in any range but you didn’t even define the range fully at any point. Neither did you analyze bet sizing properly e.g. check shoving on the flop some percentage of the time, cbetting 2/3 40%, cbetting 1/3 x%, etc. This Chris guy seems like he’s trying to think and is generally doing OK I guess, good analysis some of the time and probably he’s a winning player but this video felt very low quality and was a pretty big waste of time, could have done the same with 1/3 if you cleaned things up. Chris says have to analyze the exact table and moment you’re playing sure I agree but the video was lacking in overall strategy (there was very little). While I was typing this I was shocked that I looked up at the end of the video and barely made it past the flop after 15 minutes. Really man, do you think this is quality. You just rambled. Not tryna hate though. If I was a beginner I would have gotten almost 0 value from this. It’s just too confusing and sloppy. If you spent 5-10 minutes with some set organization and structure the quality would go up much better either post OP editing or front loading the basics up front and being more organized / concluding better. What value / bluffs you got? (Aa, kk, tt, 22, kt suited, kq, kj) and then a bajillion bluffs here to balance

[@TheImperfectionist91]

Wow man. Pretty harsh criticism of content that these guys are making for FREE on KZbin. I'm more than sure they can both go into much great detail and complexity, but you have got to know your audience. This isn't a high ticket piece of content behind a pay wall, it's a YT vid. Everyone is a critic these days.

[@looper6394]

Did not read it all, but yes, they could have come up with equilab and some range visualization. Imo we are often running into TT, 22, KT und some high equity FDs like QdJd Adxd in this spot. I don't think it is an easy x/shove.

[@splitsuit]

I appreciate feedback and thank you for taking the time to share your criticism. Your point about the "read" is a limitation of the information sent in by hero, so we did our best to extrapolate the meat (re: average bet sizing and range construction) without adding too much extra.

[@bills5054]

@@splitsuit So CO did not act like a TAG. And Hero did get it in good, right? Frankly, given the fact that Hero thought CO was TAG, I was surprised that all he had was a flush draw.

[@efeldman7b]

@@bills5054 I was going to post a separate comment on the TAG read by hero, but since it came up here, I'll say it here: Hero's read seems off, since I'm not persuaded that "tight" describes someone overcalling a PF raise in the cutoff with A7s. It's a disconnected hand that won't necessarily be in position on the flop (indeed, button calls here) and that is easily dominated both by the UTG raiser and by other callers who have lots of stronger aces in their ranges, too. OFC, Hero may not have realized before this hand how far from TAG the CO player is; he's just got to take the evidence of the hand revise the read.