Learning Point 430 | The School Lights Are Flashing

Use your eyes and make an assessment.
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[@Bobtek]

Check, slow to 20, grab phone and google half term dates. Got it ;)

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

😂 You missed the "search through glove compartment for reading glasses" step.

[@barrytipton1179]

Zigzag at schools are to save parking spots for parents who are late for safety of their children

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

@@barrytipton1179 And here was me thinking they're there to guide drunks to a safe crossing point. Doh.

[@sassyboofle6983]

Be careful just because half term sometimes clubs etc run half term , holidays

[@clickrick]

Plus any kids who are used to the 20 limit when the lights are flashing might assume that drivers will be doing 20 simply because the lights are flashing, and think it's safe to cross from between parked cars.

[@clivewilliams3661]

Never assume that the school is not being attended and the school flashing lights are a mistake. Schools around the country can have different holiday periods as well as being in use during the holiday period. Never take for granted your local knowledge.

[@ashley_neal]

That's why my pupil slowed to assess first 👍

[@paddymurphy-oconnor8255]

@@ashley_neal Is it not the case that the lights flashing means the speed limit is 20? Regardless of school opening hours or holidays on the day. Eg At a level crossing with no barriers, you’d still be obliged to stop on red lights even if it was an error and no train was coming.

[@chris12321246801]

@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 My understanding is that it's advisory, though you could be charged with reckless driving if something were to happen when the lights were flashing and you ignored it.

[@ianmason.]

@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 The flashing lights on their own just have the status of a warning, like a red triangular sign with the "children crossing" ideograph. If they have a separate sign with something like "20 mph when lights flashing" then it is advisory only. The only thing that sets a mandatory maximum is a circular red bordered speed limit sign. If they had a variable speed limit sign (red circle type) then that would be mandatory.

[@chrisl1797]

Amber lights again (see cycling video of Ashley possibly running a crossing)...... flashing amber means slow down and be prepared to stop..... no matter what it is attached to.

[@jjcastelow]

Chatting to my Mrs who has been a traffic control officer ( Lollipop Lady to you and me) for many years now. The lights at her school are controlled by Bradford council by sending the box a single. The holiday are mixed with Leeds. There are often school clubs/nursery running through out the year. If it a big event she has volunteered to work. They can be left on when the school holidays change and no one tells the controller so sometimes they are off when the school is open. Personally I would never do her job although it's very rewarding. You are welcome to stand and watch. Might be worth doing one of your KZbin videos at one of these very busy crossings. She has had a lot of abuse from bikers / drivers over the years. So if it says 20 and flashing you must do 20. You can get a ticket.

[@shm5547]

I don't think the 20mph limit is actually mandatory. AFAIK you can't be done for speeding based on the 20mph when lights show sign, it's just advisory (as long as you keep to the usual limit for that road).

[@aztimms]

Only advisory 20, to be enforceable must be circular red ringed sign. In many cases the lights are controlled by a switch under the light unit that anyone can operate and some schools just leave them on continuously as the don't have a patrol (council cut backs) and teaching staff can't be arsed to go out and operate the lights on a daily basis.

[@jjcastelow]

​@shm5547 Hi. I noticed some of the 20mph red circles are been removed just to a plain 20. My thoughts were to stop the speed recognition on car dashboards picking up the 20 when not in use. There is never a 30 after the zone to switch the car back to 30 🤔 If you are not familiar with the area you end up driving at 20 for ages! 😁 Thank you for your channel I'm a big fan.

[@Finreii]

Passed my test today! Your channel was one of the main ones I watched while learning. I might have passed, but I am looking forward to watching more of your videos and making my driving even better! In my mind, I may have passed and become a safe driver, but there is a lot more for me to learn! Thank you :)

[@ashley_neal]

Great job! Congratulations!!

[@user-ig1xo3om2x]

Second conga rat shoe laces. I've been driving for 40 years and am still learning stuff (and how to teach stuff) from Ashley.

[@smilerbob]

Congratulations 🎉🎉 Keep watching the videos and keep learning. 20+ years with a licence and still learning from the community 👍

[@PedroConejo1939]

Well done! Stick with the channel, there is always something to learn, and of course, rules change and far too little publicity (especially _accurate_ publicity) is given to them.

[@TestGearJunkie.]

@@user-ig1xo3om2x Same here, keep it up, Ashley.

[@supergeekjay]

I live near Little Lever secondary in Bolton. Driving home at 5am after a nightshift the school lights are still flashing 😂😂

[@jaycee330]

Unlike in the UK, in the USA, the school signs are regulatory, and thus enforceable if during listed hours or lights are flashing.

[@grahamnutt8958]

Kent and Oxfordshire often have different Holidays from my Childhood experiences. It never pays to assume until the situation is assessed.

[@brenigschoolofmotoring9067]

It's interesting that you advised the learner to continue through the amber light, and I would have probably done the same. I find this interesting because recently I was reported to Operation Snap for doing the same when we were being tailgated, and the tailgater was the one who reported us. I'm currently fighting to have the warning letter cancelled because the Highway Code supports all of my reasons why I deemed that it was the correct decision to continue.

[@ashley_neal]

You'll be able to tell from the footage whether the following car was closer than two seconds (obviously four if it was raining). Let me know how you get on!

[@brenigschoolofmotoring9067]

@@ashley_neal From the still image I was sent, the hazard lines in a 40mph zone prove that we were 18m from the stop line and the car behind us was at a distance of 16m; the speed shown on the dashcam image was 35mph. Total proof that we did nothing wrong, yet West Mercia Police refuse to accept the incontrovertible evidence. I'll send you the emails if you are interested.

[@smilerbob]

Regardless of the lights flashing or not (or holiday period or not), I will always slow to 20 and assess. The reasons are - there could be holiday / after school clubs going on where there is no crossing patrol or timed lights - conversely there could be a crossing patrol outside of “normal” hours for the reason above and why this video says to slow and assess - the crossing patrol could be off and the lights haven’t been activated - some schools also have nurseries which can be half day pick up where there is no crossing patrol My advice, always slow around schools regardless of lights or signage, it is for a few seconds to assess and then carry on 👍

[@robg521]

You see this quite often and you are correct, they are turned on and off by the Lollypop patrollers. And yes they often forget to turn them off and leave them running all day and sometimes all night.

[@ibs5080]

Canada and the USA use school zone speed limits extensively and their times of operation are very specifically stated. In Vancouver Canada for example, it's 30 kph and there will be a sign saying "School Days 7 am to 10 pm". No that's not a misprint re the hours of operation. It used to be 8 am to 5pm on school days but was changed during COVID to 7 am to 10 pm believe it or not...and the change was made permanent. I can tell you it's a real pain to crawl along at 30 kph (20 mph) on a straight wide Canadian road at 930pm with not another soul in sight, except perhaps the pickup truck tailgating you. In the USA the 20 mph school zone speed limit is sometimes qualified by a sign that says "When children present". Sometimes also a sign that says "Radar enforced". Another variation in Vancouver are Playground Zones as opposed to school zones. Vancouver Playground zones also have a 30 kph limit but the difference is they are enforced from dusk to dawn, 7 days a week. Another interesting feature in Vancouver with school zones and playground zones is that there is no sign in your direction to say when it ends. The way you know is when you pass the sign in the opposite direction and facing the other way to tell oncoming traffic that they are entering the zone.

[@PedroConejo1939]

I've always loved the 'Enforced by Aircraft' signs in the States. They should read 'Enforced by A-10 Warthog - Brrrrrt'.

[@ibs5080]

@@PedroConejo1939 Oh yes I remember those signs too. I wonder how many cars with sunroofs have either the passenger looking upwards for aircraft. Or even worse, the driver!

[@MusicHunter111000]

Around aberdeen, half those lights come on at weird times of the day, even like 8pm implying they're 12hrs out. But not all working at same time, everyone just slows down during school start/end times and ignores them the rest of the time.

[@ibs5080]

I've often wondered about this situation in the UK. Here in Canterbury there's a static speed limit sign for entering a "20 mph school zone" but no mention of any times of operation. That would imply the 20 mph "school zone" limit is in effect at all times, even when school is not in session. Am I correct?

[@davidellis8141]

Yes, we have same where I live with speed humps across road. There is no mention of times so 20mph is permanent even when school is on holiday.

[@ashley_neal]

Some are all the time Ibrahim/David

[@rrp6405]

They are advisory speed limit signs?

[@ashley_neal]

Have a look at the sign near the flashing lights. If it's just black-and-white, it's advisory but if it has a red ring around the 20 mph, it's an order.

[@ibs5080]

@@rrp6405 In the example I'm thinking of, they are the standard circular mandatory signs with a red border and a qualifier plate underneath to say it's a school safety zone.

[@nickrobinson1954]

A great video, putting over a very valuable learning point. I always slow to 20 when the lights are flashing, however, I was very surprised to learn last week that it is not illegal to drive faster than 20 through one of these zones (sub 30, which is the legal limit).

[@johnhodkinson2063]

Even at half term there could be a school event going on, that the lights have been activated for

[@fireburn95rs]

when i was in school, we had summer sessions and easter sessions, for example once a few kids were chosen to go on an outing and we had to prep in the building, so I'd say dont always assume because its half term its not been intentionally turned on

[@reecelowton]

The local school lights were I live are always flashing even in half term.

[@tomatzu]

A literal case of "the lights are on but no-one's home..."

[@PedroConejo1939]

Yep. I've seen the flashing yellows well into the night or weekend. I've seen two different types of sign, one with just the text "School 20 when lights show" and the other, the same words but the 20 in a red circle, ie. speed limit sign. I've always interpreted the first as advisory, and the second as enforceable, on the basis that I don't want to done for speeding. Obviously, I do slow to 20 mph with the advisory one when the lights are flashing, except where they've obviously just been left flashing after they are needed. I'm not sure just how to view the ones with a red circle sign though. Are they legally enforceable?

[@hippopotamus86]

They're advisory unless in a circle. The ones in the video are advisory and you're allowed to 30 legally. I find it odd that it's not an order however.

[@smilerbob]

I thought both types were advisory as, despite still being a red circled number, it is not the official size to be a mandatory speed enforcement. I could of course be completely wrong with that However, I will still slow regardless until I am happy there are no children around and everyone is safe

[@PedroConejo1939]

@@smilerbob When I looked it up, the technical specs for speed limit signs are quite broad in their sizes. I think it's only at the beginning of a permanent speed limit that it has to meet the larger size criterion.

[@smilerbob]

@@PedroConejo1939 Ah yes, the repeater ones are smaller. Wonderful things these regulations with variations and also variations being applicable to other regulations 😉

[@nigelcox1451]

These lights used to be manually switched, by the lollipop person, but few seem to be like that now. As said below, the local council can control them remotely, and some are just automatic, working through holidays, reducing their efficacy. Not a mandatory sped limit, but can lead to a careless driving offence if something goes wrong.

[@user10184]

Learning Point 430a. Plan to stop at the crossing even if the lights weren't red because view of the nearside is blocked by the van.

[@LeDoucheBouche]

I'm going to need the legislation that says school flashing signs are advisory. The sign is rectangular but the number is in a circle. As far as I'm concerned that is the same as a gantry sign.

[@PedroConejo1939]

I've always assumed that the red circle signs are a legal order. As for advisory, this is from the gov website under setting local speed limits: "107. An advisory part-time 20mph limit sign (TSRGD, diagram 545.1) with flashing school warning lights can be a more cost-effective solution, where appropriate, and reduces the requirement for signing." Every official document I've looked at describes school speed signs with wig-wags as advisory (unless it's in a red circle, where finding specifics about that type of sign is not so easy).

[@ashley_neal]

Even gantry signs come with or without the red circle.

[@phil6031]

The number for the speed limit isn't in a circle here. It's red school warning triangle, with a "Patrol" plate underneath it in place of "School", followed by a rectangular "20 when lights show" speed advisory panel, then the lights (of course). It's the same kind of speed advisory plate you get with a sharp bend warning triangle, but with the slight nuance that it's only when the lights are flashing.

[@chrisl1797]

​@@ashley_nealmy understanding of gantry signs is the limit is advisory if there is no illuminated circle around the number. Same goes for those in the central reservation. (I may be wrong of course.....)

[@nigelcox1451]

The circles are usually black or green. Not mandatory, but made to make people think they are.

[@radishpea6615]

1:16, the way the oncoming silver car was turning I may have reacted, they seemed to carry on oblivious. 1:22, why not asses on the approach to the sign?

[@paulqueripel3493]

As a londoner, nearly everywhere's 20 anyway. And the lights are left flashing even at midnight.

[@edwinperry4936]

Hey Ashley, that was me waving at you in the delta taxi by old roan earlier. Keep up the quality content mate. Learnt a lot from your videos

[@ashley_neal]

You don't have to look like someone else who I know on the taxis!

[@edwinperry4936]

@@ashley_neal quite a few people have said I've got a doppelganger working for delta 🤣

[@mda5003]

The problem with leaving the lights flashing during school holidays may mean drivers start to ignore the lights even when the kids are back at school. Besides, do drivers without kids of their own even know when schools are off?

[@PedroConejo1939]

A variation of when everything is a priority, nothing is a priority.

[@dalmo001]

I was told on my HGV lessons by my instructor that the flashing amber beacons and showing 20mph when flashing is only an ADVISORY, and that you can stick to the roads normal speed limit as long as there are no pedestrians/children.

[@SoupMagoosh]

That’s true, but if you hit a child going 30 while that light is flashing, you’ll be held fully accountable

[@dalmo001]

Exactly, but why does it seem mandatory when taking your car/bike driving lessons/test, but in an 18 or 44 tonne death machine it's only an advisory *shrugs*

[@andreivais]

From my point of view, this makes the case for having 20mph zones outside all schools at all times. It's a lot easier for everyone to follow and enforce.

[@WhiteEagleTube]

Even at 2 am? I think more common sense applies if it's a busy time of day with more people around slow to 20 mph.

[@andreivais]

@@WhiteEagleTube, could I use your argument about any speed limit? So, there will be no speed limit at 2am on any road - right?

[@ashley_neal]

Why even have speed limits

[@user-ig1xo3om2x]

Even at say 3AM on Christmas day?

[@WhiteEagleTube]

@@andreivais In an ideal world you would have that. Allow drivers to drive to the appropriate conditions for the time. Less looking at a speedometer and more looking what's around you.

[@andyp315]

Ones in my area (Scotland) are the red circle 20mph limit sign with "when lights flash" is this different / or wrong sign? End of the day the section near me, 2 schools is only 0.5 mile @20- 1:30 @30 -1:00, is it even worth it really 30 seconds lost that 75% of the time be spent at the lights anyway?

[@matthewsmith1162]

Hmm, my thoughts are mixed watching this clip. I feel that I'd have anticipated that if that light had been green for some time then it would be correct to ease off as it would most likely change. I feel as if your student drove through for too long on amber and narrowly missed it being red. I also feel as if the silver car turning into your path (like that driver is making a U turn because his exit seems shut due to roadworks) might have prompted me to ease off as they do seem to be a little bit oblivious, possibly fixated on the roadworks or something rather than you.

[@IamRyanLPs]

1:07 is actually Ashleys old goal celebration

[@ashley_neal]

Lol. Never scored that many for any practice!

[@FattyOn2Wheels]

to clarify do you need to do 20 when its flashing even if its half term?

[@ToddNZMTB]

It's 40k past schools here in NZ, we have fancy speed limit signs that automatically change based on time.

[@user-ig1xo3om2x]

40_000 (forty thousand) what? If you meant 40kph, then say so; it's only 2 extra characters.

[@clickrick]

@@user-ig1xo3om2x Although here in the UK we might write 40 km/h, 40k is how they write it and say it in NZ. And Australia too, I believe.

[@barrytipton1179]

Can you answer a question I’m a retired police Constable I’m telling a friend that you shouldn’t keep changing gears on the way down to slow down can you confirm I’m correct

[@grahambonner508]

I would say there that there are arguments for and against and that it depends to a large extent on the situation. If you are slowing down for traffic/obstruction and can see a space that you will be able to use when you arrive, then it can be better to be in the correct gear to be ready to apply the power. There are also other factors to perhaps consider: - Brake pads are cheaper to replace than clutches. - Slowing only using engine braking does not tell people approaching from behind that you are slowing, brake lights do.

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

The clutch one is interesting. I've driven a long time, rarely change cars, and use engine braking. In all that time I've only had one clutch issue, which was a snapped cable.

[@vulcanvoyager]

Simple, "BRAKES TO SLOW", "GEARS TO GO"

[@Chenty91]

Engine braking was important when cars had drum brakes that would overheat during prolonged use. Modern brakes do not suffer from this problem and therefore you are only putting additional strain on the clutch by doing it. That said, I still sometimes engine brake when going downhill as it helps keep a more uniform speed and I've not worn out a clutch yet.

[@colinprice712]

@@grahambonner508 IIRC from my instructor (and it was a while ago), if you know that your coming to a complete stop (e.g. traffic lights, Stop markings) simply use the brake and clutch to disengage the drive. If your slowing for an obstruction, road junction, corner etc, brake and change down - you need to be in the correct gear to control your speed - for example slowing from 50mph to 25 mph for a sharp bend, I'd drop from 5th to 4th before the bend and (depending on the car) probably into 3rd before the bend, then accelerate smoothly and carefully out of the bend. Change up as appropriate. The drivers who brake at a corner, then coast and then sort out their gears aren't fully in control. If your clutch plate needs replacing regularly, consider your driving style - I've had over 120 000 miles no one clutch...

[@Umski]

I honestly don't think public service personnel are adept enough to turn the lights on and off manually unless they are a "lollipop person" - most of the time they are either on at all times or off at all times from the ones I've seen - nearest to us they're always off as there is no assisted crossing and no-one is savvy enough to turn them on, thus most people use that as an excuse to do 40mph as the road is fairly wide and has pointless humps but long stretches in between. Chopping and changing is a recipe for accidents frankly - don't assume because it's holidays that no-one is around...

[@nightw4tchman]

I really don't like these signs, they don't tell you where the limit ends. How do you know what is or isn't part of the school?

[@hippopotamus86]

It's not a limit. Just advisory. Speed up when it is safe to.

[@Batters56]

Officially, when can you speed up to 30mph again?

[@PedroConejo1939]

I've based my decision on seeing the sign for the opposite direction.

[@craiglang3492]

Friend of mine didn’t slow to 20, no one around. He was on his test. Instant fail.

[@hippopotamus86]

I went 30 in a 40 and failed due to obscured sign. Just comes down to how the instructor feels at the time.

[@rrp6405]

doubt it examiners know they are advisory

[@angelofmalice0]

I’ve never once slowed down to 20 for those signs, I slow down and make some extra observations but I will only slow down by a couple of MPH. I do this for two reasons, 1. They’re not legally enforceable, you will actually find most 20mph speeds limits are not enforceable. 2. Because 20mph is too slow, and I am not of the mindset that I have to make sure I can stop if some pillock runs out in front of me. Traveling at 30mph, I can stop my car in a fraction of a second, so if I physically cannot stop the car before hitting you travelling at 30mph then you’re in the wrong, and I hope it was a lesson you can learn from. It is the only thing I disagree on.

[@rosssaxe]

20 limits marked with a circular red sign are just as enforceable as any other limit. Such speed limits are pretty common in my area.