Learning to Record Acoustic Instruments - RODE TF-5 and Harp with Riley Johnson

[@BasicFilmmaker]

One of my fav instruments to listen to. Nicely done. Be interested in future episodes as I know nada about mic-ing instruments. 👍

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Kevin. Lots to learn on this road. :)

[@sharpasl307]

Curtis - you never make a bad video. Great stuff.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Thanks!

[@75ajw]

Great video - recording acoustic instruments lends itself to a whole array of mic techniques, with endless scope for creativity and experimentation. Another shout out for the AKG414, particularly in a Mid-Side setup, where the magic of stereo room ambiance comes to life (waiting for Rode to bring out a small Figure-8 condenser, too!).

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

I'll need to pull that C414 out! I've got the XLS.

[@curtisjudd]

@Zack Darce Thanks Zack!

[@Zakster90]

Finally a video where someone demos the TF5!

[@curtisjudd]

👍

[@curtisjudd]

@Geoff Longford 👍

[@sterling25-H]

just what I needed for recording harp! Thank you.

[@curtisjudd]

Glad it helped. Happy recording!

[@patrickchase5614]

For an XY pair you generally want to stack the mics on top of each other so that the capsules are coincident w.r.t. the horizontal plane that the sources (presumably) occupy. This avoids phasing issues, particularly if you ever need to mix down to a mono/center channel. The configuration you have here seems to place the capsules about an inch apart in the horizontal, so you'd theoretically be susceptible to cancellation at ~6 kHz and ~18 kHz (0.5 and 1.5 wavelengths between mics, respectively). This would mostly impact off-axis room echos, since the distances from each capsule to the harp itself are very similar. For that matter with a "narrow spread" source like this harp you could have gotten good results with spaced configurations like ORTF. The stereo bar included with the TF5 allows the capsules to be stacked, by moving the cylindrical spacer under one of the mics from above the bar to below thereby "dropping" that mic below the other such that you can align the capsules vertically. +1 to adding a true center mic closer to the artist so that you can choose how much room ambience to include from your stereo array. I've heard that some engineers have had good experiences using a Soundfield mic as their "center", and then optimizing the pattern and direction to select what they want in post. The new Rode ambisonic reportedly uses the same capsule design as the TF-5, so those might combine very nicely. Nice recordings! Fans are indeed evil.

[@curtisjudd]

Thank you for the input Patrick - very much appreciated!

[@KurtRWarner]

One thing I forgot to mentioned...I am very surprised that Rode did not have shockmounts on their mics.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

I suspect they assumed that they would be statically boomed in most cases but not sure.

[@KurtRWarner]

Curtis, I could not hear any stereo imaging with your mic set-up. I would have placed the mics closer as the audio (to me) sounded hollow. Certainly having a concrete floor didn't help with the acoustics of the room.

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Kurt, agreed on all points.

[@TerenceKearns]

Very cool. Keep it coming

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

👍

[@vyoufinder]

I made the same mistake with an Atomos Ninja V. That thing's got a prop from a B52 as a cooling fan. In some lights, I've replaced fans with quieter ones, but I haven't dared to take apart the recorder.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Agreed. I'd pay $100 more for a metal headsink body design without a fan.

[@vyoufinder]

@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions I had not thought of this. I guess I just assumed they were all noisy, but yep, that's probably what I ought to do about it. Thanks. It makes the recorder pretty much unusable for most situations I find myself in.

[@vyoufinder]

@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions Oh, ok. I went looking for one for $100-ish more, thinking you were referencing one already in existence, but now I am thinking you meant if they were to design on like the Ninja V, but without the fan and using a heatsink instead. I would too. I already wrote to them and told them what I thought about the fan. Maybe they resolve it in a future model.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

@@vyoufinder Yes, sorry about that - I was hoping for a better product from ATOMOS in the future. 😉

[@skakdosmer]

They just sent you those microphones? Lucky bastard! Hehe. Recording techniques for acoustic instruments are super interesting to me, so I'm really glad you’re getting into this, as it gives me a chance to learn through your experiences. I must say that I'm not a great fan of the XY configuration, as it doesn’t really give much of a stereo image. I much prefer a more natural sounding wider stereo image like what you'd get with mic placements such as ORTF, DIN, NOS or AB. If I understand it correctly, XY is only relevant if the stereo recording needs to be suitable for mono playback as well as stereo playback, because it is good for avoiding phase issues which might otherwise occur in mono playback. Now, I am not an expert (very far from, indeed!). But it is my understanding that if avoiding phase problems is a concern, adding more microphones could easily increase the phase problems, necessitating careful experimenting with precise mic placements. And I imagine (although I'm not sure) that listening back in mono would be required. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to your next videos on the subject! Beautiful music, by the way! Too bad I can only give you one thumbs up.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Thanks Lau. Many miles to go on the path to learning how to record instruments.

[@75ajw]

M-S is often better than X-Y for mono compatibility as if an M-S stereo signal is summed to mono, the stereo ‘Side’ detail will neatly disappear completely, leaving just the ‘Mid’ mono channel.

[@johnhmaw]

Very interesting video and valuable insights. Many thanks.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Thanks John.

[@miaramer]

That was very helpful, thanks a lot! I wasn't too happy with the sound of my last harp video and couldn't figure out why. I'll try moving the mic further away for the next one

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Mia. Ideally, a close mic and room mics a bit farther back seem to work best for recording.

[@miaramer]

@@curtisjudd I actually just did that and it did make a huge difference, thanks again!

[@gopaladas]

Hello Curtis, Interesting video. Can you explain what is the purpose of having two mics instead of one? and why they are angled in this particular way? I see that done in these kind of recordings but I never understood why. Also, I assume each mic goes into its own channel, but wouldn't that create phasing problems?

[@curtisjudd]

Hi Guy, this is for stereo recordings. The XY stereo configuration has the benefit of not experiencing phase issues because the microphone capsules are nearly in the same location. The downside using the XY configuration for stereo recording is that you don't get much of a stereophonic effect, especially at the range I had the mics from the harp. Several more experienced people suggested that I should have used and ORTF configuration of the mics and also added some closer mics to the harp to pick up more of the attack of each note, then mix to taste in post.

[@joecaruso9990]

Thanks Curtis! Glad to see you're starting to enter my world. 😃 I use my 3 AKG C414 XLii's. With a Grace design stereo bar in a bonsai Decca tree setup. The sound is amazing. And yes, I agree that the room and instrument can be used as one. I did a recording where the piece was made for 4 players and they decided to use only two. I had to do an overdub and my zoom F8 dies not have that feature, so I had to use my H6. Ugh.....and closeup shotson the overdub to hide the headphones....Thanks Curtis! Look forward to more music stuff!!

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Joe, wish you were here to help accelerate the journey! 😀

[@bicraven]

Curtis, you have commented about the TF5 on the boom mic video that it could be another option for indoor dialouge recording. Have you experimented using them(it) for indoor dialouge work. I am considering the Senn. Mkh 8050 but I like the idea of the live music recording option of the Rode TF5. Primary for me is indoor dialouge. There isn't a money issue. I just want a good pro mic for film. Thanks so much! Stu Schnurman

[@curtisjudd]

Hi Stu, here's an episode where the dialogue was recorded with the TF5 for reference. I was traveling and didn't have a boom pole with me so I hand held it, but at least it is a data point: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKWWc6GQrLdsn68 Note that the 8050 could be used for recording music and instruments as well, though its super-cardioid polar pattern probably make it better for close miking an instrument.

[@bicraven]

Curtis....Thanks for your response! I listened to the you tube piece above through my Presonus boards with good headphones. Your voice sounds very natural..round...The room has some reflection that shows up on the recording..but they very short reflections. At this point...there are no options to be able listen to a comparison of this mic, to the 8050...and maybe a Sanken or a Shoeps. So purchasing any of these is a big guessing game with real money. If you happen to do another test( and I know you have already done other comparisons - I watched them) using the TF5 against the 8050 and the Schoeps...showing off axis etc...as you always do...It would be very helpful. This TF5 could be the real deal...or it might have limited use, when it comes to being an everyday, go to indoor dialogue mic and it isn't what I am looking for. Rode offers nothing when it comes to videos showing what it can do...just a 2 minute marketing piece. There isn't anybody showing this on you tube...and that goes for the 8050 also. On Sennheiser"s website, it is just descriptive information...Same with Rode. It seems they have never gotten the lesson in 101 in Film making...Don't tell me ...Show me! You seem to be one of the few that understands that. Thanks Again! Stu

[@curtisjudd]

@@bicraven Hi Stu, they're both great microphones. I think the biggest question is whether a cardioid or a super-cardioid polar pattern would suit your needs best. The TF5 is cardioid so its polar pattern is a bit wider and will generally pick up more of the room sound from the direction it is pointed. The 8050 has a super-cardioid pattern and will pick up a bit less from the sides and a tiny bit more from the back. The TF5 will be more "forgiving" if not pointed exactly at the sound source. Also, with the TF5, it only comes in matched stereo pairs so a good bit of the spend is focused on ensuring the two mics match in terms of their frequency response. And it comes with a stereo-bar mount so that's helpful if you are planning to do stereo recordings of music or ambience.

[@bicraven]

Ok...good info...I appreciate it!

[@skakdosmer]

Curtis, next time if you do XY or ORTF recordings, you may want to look closer at the Quickstart Guide for the stereo bar. The bar allows you to set the two mics at different heights. For XY it means the capsules can be placed one directly above the other. For ORTF it makes it easier to avoid the cables getting in the way of each other.

[@skakdosmer]

edge.rode.com/pdf/page/378/modules/1360/sb20_quickstart.pdf

[@ChadWork1]

Cool! I was not aware of the TF-5 mic. The lack of treatment works with the harp I think. That track can sit on it's own, or be mixed into a larger piece IMO. I wish my Rode connection/contact Scott Emerton was still working there. He would have sent those right out to me to make a video about. Now I must do some research on those. Good job Curtis!

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Drop on by - you're welcome to show me how to use the kit! ;-)

[@ChadWork1]

@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions That would be fun!

[@RallenMan]

Good learnings! I am surprised you used the 633 since it is optimized for dialog recording, I would have used the MixPre as it seems more oriented for music and sfx. In either case I doubt any musical differences could be heard between the two. I am not a big fan of XY mic placement as you get very little stereo imaging but I do agree you can’t close mic a harp. I have recorded many musical performances using ORTF including harp. In fact I recorded an ensemble of 50 harps in concert and I post a sample below. I used AB spaced pair in front and had two other spaced pairs around the stage for fill. soundcloud.com/allenc3/passacaglia-2

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Nice job on the recording Allen! Thanks for the input on XY vs. ORTF!

[@finspire8632]

@RallenMan I absolutely agree ! Was just about to post that in this video's recording distance, A-B would perhaps work better and in then if recording in a a better acoustic place / space, the ORTF more distant mic position. Usually A-B and ORTF combinations can work really well 🙂

[@federicolopezmusic]

Would you recommend the TF5 for VoiceOver work? I am currently using a NTG3 but it's quite susceptible to room acoustics. Thanks.

[@curtisjudd]

Hmm, that hadn't occurred to me. But I did use a TF5 on my voice here for reference: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKWWc6GQrLdsn68

[@judyjackson7321]

Hi, this may be a slightly odd question, but I suspect you may be the person to answer it! Most 'similar' mics, including those made by Rode, claim to have 1/2 inch capsules. The TF-5 specs only refer to 'small diaphragm'. Obviously the only thing that matters is what it sounds like, but presumably the actual dimension is different, and not something seen to be worth mentioning from a marketing point of view. Any thoughts?

[@curtisjudd]

Usually small diaphragm condenser microphones are in the 1/2 inch size range. I don't know the exact dimensions on this, but the general idea is that small diaphragms can handle transients more...accurately?...than traditional 1 inch large diaphragm microphones.

[@przybylskipawel]

Hi! How would you compare their tonality to that of NT5?

[@curtisjudd]

Hi Paweł, I only have a single NT5 so I don't have a way of comparing stereo recordings, but I think the main thing I noticed is that the high frequencies are a bit different between the NT5 and TF5. Not sure how to describe it, but I think I like the TF5 more for instruments and the NT5 more for spoken word.

[@przybylskipawel]

@@curtisjudd I wonder how it would be for choir singing. It is like in between these two...

[@curtisjudd]

@@przybylskipawel I would expect either to work pretty well with choirs. Placement will make the biggest difference, I would think.

[@EzzenzDK]

Great video, Curtis, as always!! - which mic's would you recommend for general band (drums, guitar, piano etc.) / vocal recording maybe another paired ones? Thanks :-)

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Are you looking for a less expensive stereo pair? Budget range?

[@EzzenzDK]

Curtis Judd Audio thanks - yes matched pair and budget around 1K USD max

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Hmmm, no specifics come to mind. Anyone else out there with more music recording experience have recommendations?

[@skakdosmer]

5:00 "Next time we'll use fans without lights". Well, I suppose we all know what you meant... By the way, thursday I received a pair of TF-5! They just arrived at my doorstep! (...after I ordered and paid, that is!)

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

Congratulations on the new microphones. Happy recording!

[@skakdosmer]

@@LearnLightAndSoundSessions thanks

[@delcanvideoproductions4895]

Nicely presented as usual - one thing that would help assess the room characteristics / echo is if you did a hand clap and there was some speech from next to the harp before the recording. To me it sounds like there is too much echo on the music from the room rather than a nice room ambience. Maybe compare a take with more acoustic damping.

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Declan Video Productions. Thanks for the input!

[@przybylskipawel]

Hi! My first thought was that the sound is a bit too distant, too roomy. And speaking of your comment at 6:44, do you intent to use 4 mics (one very close aside of the XY pair)? Because I am not sure if I understood it correctly. BTW would you add some delay on the close mics?

[@curtisjudd]

Hi Pawel, I would have to experiment, but I'd probably put the stereo pair closer to the harp and have one or two separate room mics. This is all very new to me so still a lot to learn.

[@przybylskipawel]

@@curtisjudd Sounds interesting. And as for the Rode TF-5... Don't you think that this is the exact same capsule that is used in NT-SF1? It looks identical and have suspiciously similar parameters.

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

@@przybylskipawel Could be!

[@MarkHarmer]

Definitely need some closer stuff on the harp. In my opinion you need either more mics to cover the way the harp produces sound, and / or really experiment with your mic placement t. An internal pickup can add a lot of lovely presence and weight to the harp sound.

[@curtisjudd]

Agreed, thanks for the input, Mark.

[@peiqipianoharpprogress2415]

Hi Curtis, I am recording in the living room with two fans in it. I find it has some background noise from the fan. Do I need to turn off the fans while recording, or do you have any suggestions? Thank you.

[@curtisjudd]

Yes, ideally one needs to turn off all sources of noise while recording. We turned of a video monitor with a fan in it in our case.

[@przybylskipawel]

Did you have an opportunity to compare it to unmodded NT5 (I know you have one)? Did they deal with the lack of warmth and brittle harshness of NT5?

[@curtisjudd]

I haven't, only because of schedule constraints.

[@przybylskipawel]

Rode stereo bar enables to configure XY with truly coincident aligment of the mics (one above the other). BTW... TF-5's for free? Damn! You are a lucky man!

[@curtisjudd]

👍

[@branichoward]

A far cheaper pair of mics could do far better with more listening and experimentation with mic placement. A great example of how moderately expensive mics do not equal a nice sound.

[@mlentsch]

Funny, I've been getting more into the music recording side of things, myself. I wish someone would drop a $1500 pair of SDCs on MY porch!!

[@LearnLightAndSoundSessions]

😀

[@ksbav8r]

Next time you record something like this, get closer, like 3-4 feet away (closer the better in a smaller space) and use an AB parallel setup around 12" instead of XY. Guarantee you will prefer the results.

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks Kevin - sounds like solid advice!

[@DWHarper62]

You should not point the diaphragm microphones toward each other... Diaphragms should be at 90 or 110 degrees as in a V...

[@curtisjudd]

Thanks David.

[@danield2000]

Mics are a bit far away. You are missing bass and the sound is too ambient. Harp is probably the hardest instrument to mic up.

[@curtisjudd]

Yes, indeed.