The Problems with Linux No One Talks About (Featuring

[@Onyx-it8gk]

Typical Windows/Mac user complaints. Cliché

[@knghtbrd]

Except … if you're trying to be "The universal operating system" (Debian) or "Linux for everyone" (Mint-IDK if they actually call it that, but I certainly have), then … the complaints are at least valid complaints from their perspective, even if they have solutions or if they just don't apply to your type of user (because you use Arch BTW?) More than 25 years ago, the problem with Linux was that non-Linux users needed to BAFB in order to figure out how to install it. We fixed that and it got easier to install than Windows 2000/XP. Yes, even Debian, which still uses the same damned installer we came up with way back then. yeek. Okay but it works. Then a local loudmouth who loves the sound of his voice (and trying to embed his weird brand of politics into Linux in more recent years) made videos every year saying that Linux sucks because audio was a freakin' mess. He was right about Linux audio with ALSA and Pulse, YMMV on his politics. A decade later finally everyone's using Pipewire now and it fixes that sh…tuff, mostly. Cool. Hopefully it won't take a decade to fix the next complaint because Windows has become f&&king predatory to its users.

[@benverdel3073]

It's more like a typical Mac user. He would've run into the same problems switching to Windows.

[@cjuk81]

He uses products that you cant get on Linux like lightroom that dont have a good linux alternative, i wouldnt have even bothered trying linux in this case

[@jamessauve2419]

For you, perhaps. But there may be others newer to the subject matter for whom this discussion may be beneficial.

[@Onyx-it8gk]

@@jamessauve2419 Certainly. I'm not saying the discussion isn't beneficial. In fact, I think it is. But I don't agree that no one talks about these issues. These are the same exact issues every Windows/Mac user faces when trying to switch to Linux. They're so commonplace there's literally hundreds, probably thousands, of forum posts and YT videos about them. It's not a problem with Linux, but rather a failure to do research and properly prepare to switch to Linux.

[@RaidOwl]

Thanks Jay! This was a great conversation not only to have but for everyone else to see. The fact that a novice like myself can sit down with an expert and have a mutual understanding of issues that need to be addressed is a great start. I've met a ton of people from the Linux community who break the stereotype of "RTFM edgelords" so it's unfortunate that the loud minority of those kill the reputation and scare off new users. I'm hoping in the not-so-distant future I'll be able to ACTUALLY make the switch from Windows, but until then I'll just keep trying.

[@gruntaxeman3740]

In my opinion, people should be more aware of vendor lock-in, planned obsolescence practices and what are the hardware and software standards. Industry standards are not stuff that happens to work in macOS or Windows. They are those network standard protocols, open specifications, specifications made by working groups where all industry members are crafting what is the standard. But switching to Linux is however... different. It is obvious for developers, data analytics, scientists etc. but many others the value is decrappification, taking advantage of cumulative learning from open source software and avoiding to get scammed. In reality it doesn't matter what OS someone is using. Everyone has own preferences.

[@ewenchan1239]

​@@gruntaxeman3740 "In reality it doesn't matter what OS someone is using. Everyone has own preferences." This is spot on. I pick the tool that best serve the needs, whatever that might be. For my HPC applications, Linux works better for this stuff. For gaming (e.g. Cities Skylines 2/Halo Infinite), Windows is better for that. For video (non-DTS:X audio), Mac works better for me. For DTS:X audio passthrough to HDMI eARC, Windows works better for that. And before ZFS on Linux was a thing, ZFS on Solaris was the way to go. Each tool, in the toolbox, serve its purpose.

[@shafeeqethayancheri8269]

9vvvvvvvvvv😊

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

The problems with Linux could be summarized in two things: - People use operating systems as a application platform. - People want a product, not a project.

[@clivewiddus3953]

Don't install MS Windows 11, its definitely a project and ever time MS fix something they break something else. I use my phone to talk to other people I don't use it as a application Platform.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

@@clivewiddus3953 Windows 11 is not the only other alternative out there. And you use your phone to talk to people. And by saying that, you've proven my point that you use a device running either iOS or Android to perform a function regardless of what's happening underneath. Your application use of your phone is talking to people.

[@toby9999]

​@clivewiddus3953 I installed Windows 11 (upgraded from 10). I like it. It's not a project. Its been working perfectly. That's not something I can say about Linux. I used Linux at work for a year and I didn't like it. I've attempted Linux installations, and they've always failed. I did get a version of Ubuntu installed on an old PC by our IT dept. Used it for a few months. Didn't like it. Put Windows back on. I can only fault two versions of Windows out of 27 years as a user... W98 was unstable and W8 was a joke but MS fixed it.

[@gruntaxeman3740]

Using operating system as application platform requires stable OS to install 3rd party app. Then the OS do matter and need to stay away from rolling releases and those where platform is changing twice a year. No need to use project. Things that are made for production use are products.

[@dantechgamegeek]

Well, that said: What is more "projectlike" than Windows? Nearly every month there are Updatetroubles, datasecurityproblems, broken functions etc. Not seen this at Linuxservers till today.... Windows - an operating system? Or a big fat data vacuumcleaner that sucks you in and never spits you out again while telling you what you have to do next... pushing you in the Mscloud and onlineaccounts and all that other .....This is NOT an operating system. In the best case, you do not notice the OS and it is "backgrounding". Windows is doing the exact thing, just the other way around...

[@Diehard754]

I love that an RTFM response on your forum is bannable. Well done!

[@ArturdeSousaRocha]

That should be the rule in every technical help forum.

[@a.b-Clay]

​@@ArturdeSousaRocha I agree with your sentiment. But If you're brave enough to explore a whole different OS and kernel, you should be equally brave enough to RTFM. People should never be toxic and discourage questions! But people should also not be intellectually lazy. Look, I've read the extensive literature on several distros: Debian, Fedora, Arch, Qubes, Tails, Kicksecure, etc-word for word in many cases. And guess what. None of it was in language that wasn't perfectly clear. And I was able to solve the vast majority of my issues by simply RTFM. Only after I've exhausted that and searching through at least two or three forums for answers will I then ask. And I'll preface my question with the research I've done. And when I take those steps, experts of the forum literally jump to answer my questions

[@TechWaltMD]

@@a.b-Clay I've received and seen rude responses even WITH prefacing questions with places and sites I've researched. And some of the documentation is not well fleshed out, leading to questions from people who are less familiar with the project.

[@jim7smith]

@@a.b-Clay your sentence in the second paragraph: "And I'll preface my question with the research I've done.", is the key. I have seen great response and answers to some difficult issues by following that path. "Experts" who would normally not answer what they perceive as simple question actually swoop in and give you an elegant answer while telling you where you could find it. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you give good advice.

[@adamk.7177]

@@a.b-Clay but it's OK to be 'intellectually lazy'. There is no one way to learn, and sometimes asking an expert is better than reading an entire book to get a sliver of information. The fact that you are upset is more a *you* problem than a *them* problem. If you are responding to a question on a forum like that, it is your job on those forums to help. If you don't want to help, just don't respond. Nobody is forcing you to answer, and answering rudely discourages new users instead of helping. So you are actively working against everything those forums are trying to do when you tell someone to RTFM, regardless of your problem with the way they're learning.

[@a.b-Clay]

Great conversation. Thanks for filming this. I'm definitely not a Linux noob, but you still put words to issues I couldn't define nearly as well

[@digiryde]

For people responding to informational requests, a template I like is: - Restate Question in your own words. This ensures that the answer you are giving if for the issue/knowledge requested. - Provide a tl;dr answer. There are many people who are not going to understand a detailed answer. Giving a quick if this, do that answer is actually easier to understand for most people. - Provide a more detailed, but still brief answer. Once a person has done the tl;dr part, for many people, it becomes easier to understand some technical detail as to why the answer is what it is. - Provide the location of the pertinent documentation . As people learn more about the answer, eventually some will want to RTFM. I am one of those. I love reading the docs. I hate being told RTFM as The Answer though. Hope someone finds this useful.

[@JordosTechShack]

During the windows 8 and 8.1 days I converted a lot of people (especially the elderly generation) to Ubuntu. They hated the 8 interface. Most of what they did web browser based, except for office and in just about every case Libre office was good enough. Since windows 10 it's been harder to flip people. Windows has gotten better, and Chromebooks filled the space with the clients I was already converting.

[@MrvelvetviruS]

Copilot and the recap thing brings some fresh air for more people to try Linux.

[@JordosTechShack]

@@MrvelvetviruS My kids have windows because they game, but because of school they are way more comfortable in ChromeOS. Before their gaming PCs they had Pi400s with a ChromiumOS build. So the up coming generation I could see the normal being carrying a higher end chromebook for a daily laptop and some sort of steam deck/ Steam OS gaming PC. I know college professors for IT /Computer science already having issues with new students only knowing their phones OS and ChromeOS, and not familiar with windows or Mac at all.

[@RoastBeefSandwich]

Most people would be perfectly happy with a Chromebook. Is that wrong?

[@ewenchan1239]

@@MrvelvetviruS I turn all of that stuff off, the first chance I get. But that is no different than, post fresh install of Linux, that I will then start going into all of the various places, within said Linux system, and start customising it to my liking as well. It has been my experience tha some Linux users will spend an inordinate amount of time, customsing Linux to EXACTLY how they want it, and then bitch about how shitty Windows is, because they aren't willing to do the same, in Windows. They just like to bitch about it.

[@toby9999]

I just stayed with Windows 7 until 10 was released. Tried Linux on an old PC some time around when Windows 8 was released but it sucked in my opinion.

[@lifefromscratch2818]

Ya know what I like about Linux as a desktop/laptop? That I can load it, fire it up and I don't have to "hack into" it like I'm trying to access my freaking bank website. Windows forcing people to have accounts with them just to get into their own local PC was the last straw for me. When I first loaded a Linux desktop and was able to use it without having to put in any personal information, it was like a breath of fresh air. It was also very nostalgic. Like when I was a kid on Windows XP. Or an old Xbox. Turn it on and do what you want. No proving who you are, authenticating, entering product keys, making accounts, figuring out how to get past the ads, the news, the garbage. Just it, and the thing I wanted it to do for me.

[@psk177]

Agreed. Anonymity needs to comeback. Too much telemetry on Windows and data collection.

[@ytbone9430]

@@psk177 I think it is easier to trim Windows down a bit, than to pimp up Linux. There are several Windows debloating scripts out there, use one of them, create a local account and add PiHole or something for your privacy to your network, it's done within an hour or day, compared to investing multiple weeks trying to get Linux up to the Windows level of functionality. I've been through this, as a hardcore Windows user, you will still end up with a bunch missing applications and general ease of use / functionality (like no UNC path support anywhere in Linux, drag'n drop not working correctly, missing transfer compression when doing remote desktop work etc.). It surely depends on what you are doing with your computer, the more professional or die hard you make use of Windows, the harder the switch to Linux will be, if you require Adobe Camera Raw for photo development, you are screwed on Linux, the same goes for file management, there just is no Directory Opus like file manager on Linux. If you don't need this kind of software, then you might get along.

[@lambtron-69]

less is more, that's the way of linux, and the reason why I love it. I use debian because I love boring but stable and secured distros, I'm also new to linux and I like it, it reminds me of using XP and Windows 7 the desktop experience that I miss

[@DimkaTsv]

Don't quite understand pretense with Windows. Disable internet connection. Create local account. Do whatever you want without giving this information to Microsoft. Well, except using Microsoft Store which also has separate login. Winget should still work though. And even if you logged into Microsoft account, you can just unlogin from it and switch to local account afterwards. It's not like you use day to day PC without ever logging into something anyways. Like you logged onto KZbin to leave that comment. You logged into account on your phone to gain access to application store. No matter if it is iOS or Android.

[@ewenchan1239]

But you DON'T have to sign up for a Microsoft account, to use Windows. Win10 isn't like that. With Win11, you can press Shift+F10, and then type in "oobe\bypassnro", press Enter, let it reboot, and then you can set up your system with an offline account. IS it an extra step? Yes. But are you REQUIRED to have a Microsoft account? No. What you wrote here is woefully inaccurate. You could LITERALLY google it in a matter of minutes.

[@RusselsPairOfDucks]

I had the exact experience you're talking about at 38:50 : trying Ubuntu and not being able to upgrade OpenOffice because it wasn't in the repo. When I asked why in the Ubuntu forum, instead of an answer I got questioned "what do you need the latest version for, what exact features are so important to you?". In general, I found the forum a genuinely unhelpful, scornful and toxic vipers den. Sure, you can solve most Linux issues if you dedicate a weekend to it every so often, but I'd rather have a life. I've kept away from desktop Linux since first trying it and its' forums.

[@knghtbrd]

This, honestly, is why I am so excited for Flatpak. It's a solution that doesn't solve every problem, and I don't even know if LibreOffice (since OpenOffice is basically dead nowadays) is available as a flatpak … checked, it is! … but decoupling OS version from app version means that you can run the most current apps or, y'know, not, as you please. Again it's not yet a perfect solution. There's a few apps I've found aren't "perfect" under flatpak and some (OpenRGB) I never got to work at all no matter what I tried. But still, it's solving a lot of that kind of problem. I realize I'm making it sound like we just need to fix this one little thing to make Linux a good desktop OS for everybody, and I know it's not that simple. But … actually it kinda is. Fix one little problem, fix another little problem, keep fixing each little problem in turn and eventually we're there, technologically speaking. Of course the biggest problem … is attitude. The first or second comment under this video was something to the effect of "typical windows user complaints, cliche, nothing to see here." Kinda actually NO. Sometimes yeah they're common Windows/Mac user complaints, sure, but when a longtime Linux user says that people constantly trashing devs of key projects (not even the projects, but the devs behind them) because they don't like the projects … that's not a "windows user complaint", that's a recognition of toxic BS that only a longtime Linux insider is gonna recognize. You might have a beef with a Linux developer or even a group of them (sometimes they're toxic too), but if you don't like something about a project-say that OpenRGB saves its profiles in a binary format-going off on CalcProgrammer isn't going to help that, is it? IDK, I guess I'm all over the place in this comment, sorry. 🙂

[@jr.jackrabbit10]

Hearing an expert and a novice be so mutually intelligible when discussing the issues that linux faces gives me so much hope for the future. Hopefully people can learn to cooperate more and "crab in a bucket" less.

[@seriouscat2231]

The problem is that linux and design simply do not mix, and when they do, the end result is bad, as in Gnome. So everyone is gathering the same low-hanging fruit again and again. Everything that is obvious has been done a long time ago, but everything that would require thought and commitment gets avoided. This lack of attention to design is what mostly plagues systemd, KDE and Wayland. The whole OS is a pile of mechanisms (things you can use) uninformed by policy (what you specifically need to do and want to do).

[@CedroCron]

The problem is that it's a Windows world out there so while I run Linux, I can't get away from Windows 100% because of certain things that are made and only work for Windows... So it's most of the time in a VM for me but sometimes it has to be dual boot on a bare-metal install. It's also really difficult finding support sometimes for what you need without getting a ton of opinionated jerks jumping all over you for doing something a certain way etc.

[@knghtbrd]

What you're doing with a VM is annoying, but it's a necessary step to getting rid of Windows IMO. Making that easy to do is probably one of the major next steps. When Apple went to Intel, there was a product called Parallels, it was all about virtualizing Windows in a way that was as transparent as possible for the Mac user. A VMware product followed. Unfortunately the VMware product was kind of neutered on the UI in that you couldn't tweak all the settings you normally would because "dur-hur-hur it's for Mac users". But seriously we kinda need a Parallels/VMware Fusion for Linux. Sure, more configurable because you can do a lot with those … but the sane defaults, and ideally operating in a "rootless" mode, but let's start with a sane defaults it-works-first and tweak later if you want. Perfect solution? No. But improving the experience for Linux users is an iterative process.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

In my opinion, the “jumping on” situation is improving. But the “use this distro.” as a solution is still annoying.

[@chris_schenkel]

The neckbeards are out of control.

[@TruthDoesNotExist]

I have the more richard stallman, if it's closed source I won't use it type attitude

[@7thAttempt]

If you want the younger generation : AAA Gaming. If you want Enterprise Desktops: A standard that is worth investing to build apps and management tooling against. Nailing those will mean general public adoption.

[@harveybc]

You hit most of the problems I've noticed with Linux. It is great to be able to customize but like you said, most people just want it to work. In truth you shouldn't even notice the operating system, it should just let you do what you need to do. One thing that amazes me is the bit that Linux will work with everything. The first time I played with Linux was when Gnome was a brand new thing. Back then it was more amazement when Linux worked with your hardware. Usually worked with desktops but laptops almost always had issues. Linux has come a long way. As to helping other people out there are too many who push using terminal. While it is often the best way terminal scares most people who have only used Windows or Mac. Heck, years ago some of my duties was doing LAN management on a Novell network back in the days before any GUI existed for Novell and sometimes the cryptic commands in Linux terminal intimidate me.

[@tunin6844]

I share the confusion over aversion to gui tools. When I first tried linux, I got my hands on a Mandrake install cd (in 2004, if I remember correctly) which was known for its "wizards". I ran into all sorts of hardware issues, but it actually ran extremely stable which was quite the contrast with Windows ME (which I was trying to replace). Over the years, I kept going back to Suse (Novell, Opensuse, whatever) partly due to Yast. It may be a silly acronym, but it does have tools for most things you want to do. If you are comfortable with the terminal, it may be easier and faster, but the gui is there for people that are either new or simply don't care to use the terminal at all. It isn't as though the terminal will go away or quit working if good gui tools exist.

[@xenomyr]

Yes. I try Linux every few years and the same problems persists. Why aren't all OS/Desktop Environment settings centralized in one window for instance? I guess that would be easy to implement. In Windows 11 I can add or remove a program, change the refresh rate of my monitor, update the system, and change the system fonts all from a single and straightforward GUI window. Using commands for daily tasks is not very hard, what's is more difficult is to remember all of them. Also more abstractions (commands) = more mistakes. Most people, including me, don't care to have to "earn the right" to us their OS, they will choose the path of least resistance which is Mac and Windows. Privacy and freedom should be accessible to anyone, not only to a handful of autistic techies.

[@seriouscat2231]

It is because GUI tools, to be usable, need to be designed. You need to have in mind how to present the data to the user and what the user might possibly want to do with it. This lack of understanding or lack of interest in how the human mind works and how people learn what their computer is doing is why they don't do it. Or even if someone wanted to do it, the effort required is not negligible. Also, a GUI tool is done badly when it is either too confusing, gives too much data without context, or severely limits what the user can do. The point of a GUI is that it explains things as you go, which means that the programmer of the GUI must be good at explaining things to his target audience.

[@ArbiterofMoths]

@@seriouscat2231 Which is..practically no programmers considering how well most of them handle people 😂

[@rdsii64]

I want a t-shirt that has the Debian logo, but I want it to say "I don't use Arch by the way"

[@janvangorp6918]

I use Debian by the way😂

[@Jorn-sy6ho]

I’ve the Debian with ‘think correctly’ text. Love it!

[@pabllosee]

It's fine. No one's perfect.

[@Earl.Norris]

Of cause I use Debian.

[@Earl.Norris]

Are you not using Debian yet?

[@yanasitta]

There are too many nerds that treat Linux like it's a MMORPG and think you need to earn the knowledge the way they did. They act like elitist gatekeepers that want to maintain their superiority. Kudos to those that don't have that attitude and offer a hand to pull the rest of us up.

[@ArbiterofMoths]

@@yanasitta "The world must suffer..as I have suffered"

[@SubTroppo]

The main problem as I see is that there are too many distros which I suspect leads to manufacturers dragging their feet on hardware drivers. I have resorted to Meta AI (on my phone) to get specific advice because internet searches have brought up too many variations of effectively bad (incomplete) forum advice in posts. When your phone can connect to a screen without wires easily, tablets, laptops will be in decline and desktops might only be for gamers. nb I am not a power user [Linux Mint & Puppy Linux] and I also keep my toe in the Mac OS pool. Thumbs up for the discussion!

[@themomaw]

The biggest problem with Linux is that it isn't an operating system. It's a kernel. And then dozens (hundreds?) of teams that don't agree with eachother on anything take that kernel and make dozens (hundreds) of different versions of something that isn't compatible with eachother. You said it yourself: When you want a new program, it's not "Windows, Mac, and Linux" versions, it's "Windows, Mac, and Maybe". What Linux needs to actually succeed is unification and standardization so that it becomes an operating system and not a vaguely aligned galaxy of Stuff that happens to start from the same kernel.

[@SergLapin]

This is correct. On top of this, as it was highlighted by Linus, distros are going nuts with reuse of the libraries and etc. And very proud when ther complex application is 500kb, but relies on 1gb of dynamic libraries. While windows apps are huge, but mostly self-sufficient. Everybody hates those annoying c++ runtime packages.

[@jornott8399]

I don't agree with the "repositories are bad" sentiment. The main issue with repositories is that there are dozens of package managers and formats around that ignore each other. If all the distributions could agree on a common standard for packaging and repository management, that would lessen the burden on software developers to support different distros with their own repo. In the next step, they need to get all those "my programming language has their own package manger" projects on board as well. Python, Ruby, PHP, and many other languages invented their own package managers and each of those are completely ignorant of the distribution provided system.

[@lumeronswift]

There definitely seems to already be a vaguely aligned galaxy of stuff... but I would argue that it wouldn't be "open source" if there was a forced framework. What you could argue for is a few distros aligning with certain standards and aims... and I would suggest that Debian, Arch, Fedora, and Gentoo already do this.

[@ZeroG]

@@SergLapinGuess you never heard of .NET lol

[@cgjoh]

What we need as a set interval of Linux summits, where anyobe of any distro is welcome to come and share where they are what theyve done and where theyre going.

[@kenworks6068]

Thank You! I've been using Linux for 30 years and I'm still looking for better GUI interfaces. This is because my life is too loaded down with trades to memoize or look up every linux command and how to script them. Software is really just a small part of my life though I still have a home lab with a server and 10 Gb fiber back bone. The command line works for me, and I've used it with big iron as a backbone telecom hub tech. So I'm a newbie still though I started with tubes. analog computers and core memory. Linux would be so much better if more focus was put on tools like Webmin. Standardized dialogs present new uses with options to control the deep functionality to the OS offers. I use Linux every day. The team, group and individual contributors have and are making the world better for everyone - Thank You All

[@dwightsmith5174]

WOW!! 15 minutes in and they voice every issue and concern I've had trying to switch. Bravo!!

[@Breto151]

Finally someone else said it... I've been saying for years that it is great that there are so many distros of linux but that is also it's biggest weak point. There are just TOO many distros and UI's now and because of that none of them work correctly. (I guess it just takes another Bret to say it! :D )

[@SwiatLinuksa]

With all due respect, who's telling you to use 600 distributions? what's the problem? You don't want to choose, use Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch or Debian. Don't limit the choices of others because you limit their freedom

[@Breto151]

@@SwiatLinuksa Wow... you so missed the point

[@SwiatLinuksa]

@@Breto151 probably yes

[@rdnowlin1206]

New user. From my understanding, there are three main forks of Linux - Debian, Redhat/Fedoria and Arch. Then comes the Desktop environment. Which are too many to list. I picked Debian w/ a KDE environment.

[@SwiatLinuksa]

@@rdnowlin1206 that's right ;) and few maybe 7 independent made from scratch - 4mlinux, Pclinuxos, OpenMandriva, Void, Puppy, LFS,Gentoo.. i know - SystemD free are here too but they're not for daily easy/new user..

[@goedelite]

I spent the first 5 minutes out of the 47 minute video without hearing anything about the problems with Linux. I had no more time to waste. I left. Presenters should get to what they claim to present. Five minutes of banter is a an extravagance when it is someone else's time.

[@erickleefeld4883]

The Steam Deck is an interesting product, because it takes an Apple-like approach to creating a Linux consumer product. Valve selected all the hardware components, and they designed and are maintaining an operating system to work on that specific hardware product. The desktop mode is this extra little thing built in for a gaming device, but I really do think that Linux vendors should think in these terms.

[@digitalnomad9985]

It would be good if developers could try to incorporate these advantages without a view to lock-in.

[@nomadic_shadow]

This is a really great conversation. You guys really tackled some important stuff about linux adoption.

[@PremiereStoss-qm9un]

I switched from windows to Linux about 1 year ago. I had problems with hardware with many different distros (Ubuntu, Debian, SuSE, etc). I finally installed Manjaro and it worked with ALL my hardware. So, I have been running Manjaro KDE and now I barely touch my windows.

[@peterwstacey]

It's not just the distro, it can also be the Desktop Environment. The only major hardware issue I had was it randomly not registering the Nvidia drivers upon booting, which turned out to be a XFCE issue (fortunately the folk at Linux Mint forums were very helpful)

[@cybermonkeyusa]

The number one reason that people will not adopt, Linux is simply because it does not run the software that they use. It was pointed out earlier in the video that light room was on negotiable for the user. It’s not just commercial software, but it’s also not everyone wants a system that they can tinker with. While people will argue that windows 11 has issues, it’s still runs all the software that most users want to run. I do think people could move to Linux if some of the geek was stripped out and it ran commercial software. We’re seeing a generation that has grown up on Google Chrome books and they are doing just fine. I disagree with the host when he stated that people don’t want to change.Mac is a good reason that people do change from platforms like windows simply because they find that it fits a need. In short, I do think that there is a place for Linux, but the community has to determine what problem is at solving and why do I need to switch.

[@iankester-haney3315]

At some point, you have to acknowledge that the documentation might not be clear. I've seen plenty of barebones documentation that doesn't get into specific details.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

What documentation?

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Which software does have clear and accurate documentation? LaTeX might get close but I cannot think of anything else. And even LaTeX documentation is really verbose so it's not easy reading.

[@JV-pu8kx]

Good documentation does seem to be going the way of the dinosaurs. There was a time when good documentation, online (Help menu) and print, was considered _half_ the value of the software! What's left is either incomplete or simply not written clear enough. The writers, and the RTFM people, forget that there's many levels of geek. What documentation does exist is often written for level ten geeks, but there are level zero geeks, or non-geeks, wanting to learn.

[@MrMayaFx]

I am 52 years old I tried Linux Foodora since the beginning of 2000. In those days we didn't know Wi-Fi and I found a problem in using my printer and accessing the Internet via Ethernet because there is no drivers for them in Linux. After about 7 years I installed Ubuntu in my laptop and again I can not connect to the WIFI because of the driver problem. I think Linux developers fixed a lot of these problems and I will try Linux in on anther SSD in my desktop.

[@sillymadeupusername]

I am also trying Linux again for the nth time _ Fedora 40 - installed it last week on an exworks laptop I just retired last week so I have all the time in the world now. I installed 3 days ago and so far everything has been a breeze. It picked up the Wifi OK. I can see and access my Windows shares on my desktop (took some time and a flash of inspiration). VLC didn't work - someone in internet suggest installing from FlatPac - Hurrah! Plugged in my android phone - worked. Installed LibreOffice Calc - worked. Bluetooth - have an issue - this laptop has no Bluetooth - need to buy a Bluetooth dongle. My main point is with video/sound file - codecs/licencing seem to have been always an issue - I have hundred of Terabytes of videos of all types and I want to watch them all - I hope I can this time around.

[@buriedbits6027]

This was a very healthy and honest conversation. Thank you gentlemen. I am new to Linux so I appreciate the topics covered and the sincerity.

[@buriedbits6027]

10:13: Up to this point, I found the points made to be quite valid. For new users, Linux can sometimes feel a bit overwhelming. I’m currently trying Debian because I’m genuinely interested in learning, and I plan to stick with it. I also agree with the importance of forum members showing empathy toward newcomers. While some questions might seem basic to experienced users, we all start somewhere. A little patience and understanding can make a big difference in helping others succeed on their Linux journey! 😊

[@miket.220]

I switched to Linux Mint Cinnamon a year ago and love it. But i spent a month with Mint in VM on my Win10 machine testing it out before I made the switch, making sure I had all my software I needed. Can’t recommend this highly enough. My computer is a 2012 Mac Mini, and I initially switched to Win10 because Apple abandoned my machine years ago. Mint breathed new life into it, even over Win10. My biggest complaint with Apple is abandoning a perfectly good computer like my upgraded Mini so soon. It works beautifully for the average user.

[@louise-w54md]

I saw a post on reddit about a guy ranting about how 'new' users coming over from windows are lazy and won't rtfm and how tired he is of answering noob questions. I told him, people like him are the reason why linux doesn't get big. He sees new users as a problem, I see new users as an absolute win. If more people keep coming over, things will only get better for the linux community. device manufacturers will start building drivers, software companies will start shipping their software with linux support. Please people, help new users. Have some patience. We all know how much of a terminal genius you are and how you were banging out shell script inside your mom's womb. No need to flex that. No need to scare away new users. by doing that, you are harming the community and blocking the entry. Do not freaking gatekeep.

[@gio5340]

Absolutely loved the insight, awesome collab from 2 fav channels Please provide more visibility for collaborations from the community to test, develop, innovate. I’d love to get involved

[@ytfeelslikenorthkorea]

The problem with Linux is, it's full of Linux people.

[@k1ry4n]

The problem with the world is that is full of people making stupid generalizations.

[@PaulaXism]

@@k1ry4n Every day I wake up and find that I have to deal with people... arrrrrgh!!!

[@janvangorp6918]

We call it techsupport. NOT THE INDIAN ONE!!!!

[@ytfeelslikenorthkorea]

@@k1ry4n haha... sore spot? Are you using Arch btw? :) ROTFL

[@break_the_floor_mother]

true

[@jakobw135]

The complaints lodged by your guest are VALID, but, you shouldn't let other people's INSULTING ATTITUDES discourage you from your goals or your preferences! Look around and you'll find civilized individuals who will give you the best answer they know!

[@jktolford8272]

RTFM? *Write* TFM, *publish* TFM (in print or complete downloadable format like pdf), *link* to TFM. Even then, there are people who don't do well w/ manuals, but there is a paucity of assembled, accessible, indexed documentation.

[@Yamahog]

Yep, and also the Forum admin could post , " In terminal type ' man < program name > ', then press enter and RTM if it isn't available as a pdf from the repository... presuming the user downloaded the man-pages along with said app.

[@jktolford8272]

@@Yamahog I became aware of the man command after posting. Yes, make newbies aware of *how* to read the manual, assuming it exists. Your suggested post could be boiler plate or pinned in forums.

[@OraOraOra]

Great Video! I'd love more of these podcast type videos!

[@dennysawyer3980]

I love Linux, and it has saved me having to buy a new computer because it works well even on my 12-year-old laptop, but most people don't even want to install their own operating systems. They want to buy a computer that fits their needs, that will run the software they use, and that fits their budget. They want something that's easy to use and that runs their favorite games. Until a manufacturer starts pre-installing Linux, software companies port their applications to Linux, and doing things like mounting network shares is done through a GUI, Linux will never compete with Windows or MacOS. I've been running Linux on my desktop and both my laptops for almost five years now, and every year I still have to boot into Windows because there is still no tax software for Linux that fits my needs, and none of the commercial tax programs run in Wine.

[@alphascorpii185]

You're right, if you must go through the installation of an OS, with all the problems, small problems often, but when you're just a user knowing nothing to computer systems, you just let go and buy a ready to use product. What Linux distro makers have to understand, is that people want to use their computer, they don't want to know how it works. Imagine having your car engine delivered apart of the bodywork and all you know is how to drive a car.

[@tlh8391]

Linux people - wow that's a cool nice distro. Others - it looks ulgy and outdated. That's the issue.😂

[@buriedbits6027]

One of the things I truly appreciate about Linux is its ability to breathe new life into older computers that might otherwise be considered obsolete. Many machines that no longer receive security updates or support for their native operating systems can run a modern version of Linux, depending on the distribution. This is incredible to me. When you think about what a typical student needs for school-whether it’s in high school, university, or even grade school-the essentials are pretty straightforward: a web browser, maybe an email client, and a text editor. Gaming is fun, sure, but for studying and productivity, these basic tools are crucial. With Linux, people who can’t afford to buy new computers can pick up an older, used one and install a current version of Linux, turning it into a fully functional and modern machine. This untapped market could really benefit from wider awareness. Shops selling affordable, used computers with up-to-date Linux installations could provide a powerful solution, especially since the software is free. While this concept is well-known within the Linux community, I don’t think it’s as widely understood by the general public. There’s so much potential here for giving old technology a second life, especially for students who need reliable, budget-friendly computers for their education.

[@lotusson]

Two things. Regarding their discussion about how hard it is to convince people to switch because you're not selling them a product, you're selling them an idea. I found that to be a very enlightening way to look at it.

[@castigo1986]

Such an interesting conversation: I can definitely relate with some of the problems with switching, especially moving away from known procedures and software. But with the growing compatibility of games on linux and AMD attitude towards open source, I think switching now it's relatively easier for gamers and general users. Plus, most work now is really browser based, until you need a specific closed source software that won't run on linux.

[@davidwestra8181]

I really appreciate the call out against RTFM replies. As someone with ADHD, Linux and homelabbing has been a great long term hobby as I would quickly lose interest with most other things. When I first started and I got my first RTFM reply - it was very discouraging. Often times I find the manual not as straightforward and NEW user friendly. I need to play, try, and fail before the manual even starts making sense. This is why I watch so many KZbin videos from both of you, craft computing, NetworkChuck, Jeff Geerling, etc. I feel like the manual is better as a reference or reminder rather than an instructional tool.

[@cgjoh]

No i agree with jay, down with repository soup.

[@markjones2349]

Yes! The linux community online are major assholes most of the time. I NEVER ask for help on IRC or Reddit or anywhere anymore. I've been on Linux for 16 years and starting out on Ubuntu was great and actually that community was the friendliest almost always. Then I moved on to Debian and that community was a grumpy group to say it extremely kindly. I don't remember ever asking a question and getting a kind response and it usually ended up in me swearing at people knowing full well I would get kicked out of the IRC or whatever from the straight up rude people asking why I would come asking for help for whatever. Now when I need help I use Google Gemini or my self hosted Ollama AI.

[@jothain]

@@markjones2349 I've been on Linux desktops since Ubuntu 8.04 and some of the communities are indeed horrible. Especially IRC. Always RTFM, Google etc. even if one is implying that has tried to search for stuff. Luckily there's one good forum that is in my native language and people are generally very helpful long time users and gather into this Ubuntu forum, even if there's like about 20% of long time users that don't use Ubuntu. Myself included.

[@paddymurphy-oconnor8255]

They just think you should know like they do. I suppose many of them are on the spectrum.

[@elminster8149]

@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 Don't make excuses for bad behaviour.

[@jothain]

@@paddymurphy-oconnor8255 No. They have simply forgot their learning experiences.

[@paddymurphy-oconnor8255]

@@elminster8149 I’m not. I’m explaining one of the causes.

[@ASilverNMeep886]

"installing an OS on a refrigerator" is a great paradigm shift I hadn't really considered before. I "knew" that most people don't consider their OS, but it's hard to really duplicate that feeling or sympathize. I felt if you use any two devices with different OS: Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS, ChromeOS, heck even Blackberry/flip-phone era or game consoles, you'd consider how you like to interact with devices. Not everybody has access to multiple devices or upgrades, but considering how people felt about Windows 7 to 8 to 10, it seemed like the effect should have been wider when including other interfaces as comparison.

[@tehtapemonkey]

Cool show, thanks for having Jeff on your show!

[@Mega_Casual]

The Windows versus Linux discussion about wanting a gui to setup network shares reminds me of the old days when the die hard web designers bragged about using a text editor rather than a software package like Dreamweaver for example. Using a text editor to design web pages did not make them cool or better, just made them feel more elite . Nothing wrong with wanting more gui stuff in LInux with a caveat. That the admin should be able to perform the same tasks in terminal if need be if the gui is mis-behaving..

[@justanothercomment416]

The difference was, software like Dreamweaver created garbage HTML. It was the difference between people who could and people who took pride. The fact it required more skill to create a higher quality product was the point of pride. Given the bandwidth limitations of the period, it mattered.

[@l30n.marin3r0]

"Let's bloat the one thing that works just fine by itself with a graphic interface but give people the option to use the one thing that works just fine in case the other we added, that we don't need, fails" Great logic. Now, if we we're talking about making better documentation with actual use cases and updating the man pages, then I'd be right behind you. The thing is, just with your comment, I don't think you use any linux distro

[@fanis4093]

not only if the gui is mis-behaving but also for other reasons like you want to do it with a simple ssh.

[@araaraavery]

@@l30n.marin3r0 as someone that uses arch btw and prefers to interact with my machine at the terminal, the whole point of this discussion is how to broaden the userbase and adoption of linux and other open source software. The simple fact of the matter is that people (in general) DO NOT WANT TO USE THE TERMINAL as the main way of interfacing with their computer. Technically yes, a gui is 'bloat' in the same way if i go to a burger place and they tell me they only do ketchup and mustard as toppings bc all other toppings are 'bloat' and they don't want to deal with slicing and keeping other fresh toppings. Yes, adding 'bloat' introduces more potential vectors for things to break or make them needlessly more complicated but, trying to say guis are bad because they're 'bloat', is great logic akin to calling someone stupid because they want to put bacon on their burger when ketchup and mustard are simpler and just less hassle. the option to do something in a gui rather than at the terminal (just like wanting more than ketchup and mustard on your burger) is just that: an option. Without this option present, dont be surprised when nobody wants to come eat your burgers.

[@l30n.marin3r0]

@@fanis4093 if you're sharing files over the network you would only need to set the server once, which is not really that difficult even with ftp but you could just scp over the network and you'd be fine, no need to ssh and then again, even that is easy. Samba is even easier and it even works with iPhone without the need to download any extra apps on the phone. Haven't tried scp with an iPhone and I installed some packages on Arch that make it way easy to connect to the phone just by plugging it into the laptop. Do you have to read? Yes Could it be done better an easier? Also yes

[@BoDiddly]

This was a great interview, and the title holds up to the content!

[@stephenanthony5923]

Started in 2022. The learning curve for Linux was rough but also kinda fun for a knowledge worker like me. And it made me realize how Windows mis-trains users about how computers actually work.

[@alphascorpii185]

That's the point, selling a product, not an idea. Many people use their computer for simple things, not talking of gamers here, and what they want is just a product that works, send mail, surf the net. Obviously you don't need a computer to do this, your phone does it, a tablet does it, and those products are very popular for a good reason : they work right out of the box. I'm a Linux user for more than 15 years now, I love it, and I will never go back to Windows, but I'm not an "average" user, I have a (small) knowledge about OS.

[@az_tinkerer_gamer]

Yep, people dont like change. I think a lot of people dont do the research they need to make the change. IE. How to run the terminal, how to optimize their distro, etc. When i made the change from windows, i tried to make it a point to utilize the terminal over gui. Granted there were times i tapped and used the gui. Another thing i've found. People dont like variety for some reason. They get overwhelmed from the choices. Whether its choosing a distro or personalization of kde. Myself, i love variety. I dove right in doing kde and loved the personalization. I think ill try my second distro with arch. Anyway have fun and i always enjoy the content.

[@jothain]

@@az_tinkerer_gamer tbh many people make "noobs" believe Linux is very easy to approach, which isn't true at all imo. Let's be real that virtually everyone comes from Windows and stuff is done vastly different in Linux. Drives are handled very differently. Heck I still don't remember all the system related file structures on Linux and I've been using it for decades. I certainly don't mean Windows is simple, far from it, but I also stumble completely false statements in Linux forums about Windows. But if coming from Windows with issues to achieve some bliss from Linux, well it's going to be a rough ride in the start. I'm using virtually all OS's out of curiosity. Windows, Linux, Android and now more recently MacOS and iOS. They all have their pros and cons, but like I haven't crashed Windows in... Decades and yet some people claim it's unusable in some way. Just like I was under impression MacOS is some kind of an holy grail of OS's just to find in very beginning of my introduction to it that it has the worst ever window management out-of-box since like Windows 95. There's good stuff in it too, like I mentioned all have those pros and cons. But anyway I digress. If one has bit lacking base and does the switch to any OS, it's going to be quite difficult. Change needs that open-minded vision. Unfortunately most are displeased in thing X and try to go into another platform likely expecting it to be almost same, but that it just works. Many people have been quite confused in ie. Ubuntu forum where I'm really active when I've occasionally stated based on users needs that imo you might want to actually stick to Windows and I can try to help with your issue. There's been way too many comments about people ramming their Windows installation with Ubuntu and now user is wondering how they can use their diabetes tracking software made for Windows and at same post ask like btw how do I run my Autodesk installation with copyright USB dongle and it kinda breaks my heart to tell some of these that unfortunately you've been told quite rose tinted things about changing OS. Like gaming. Yes it's gotten a s ton easier on Linux, but I'd still urge one to use Windows. However if one uses like Firefox and like old outlook etc. on their dated hardware with Windows that has began to feel slow, using software that's available for virtually any OS. By all means put that Linux Mint out there and see if it works for you. People just shouldn't give false expectations to anyone. Especially to users that aren't tech savvy

[@az_tinkerer_gamer]

@@jothain as clint eastwood said, "a mans gotta know his limitation." Be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. Try different distros, as some are preconfigured out of the box. I know elitists would scoff at that. But a lot of new people want that sort of thing. I started rather recently down the linux hole on nobara. Im more hardware savvy than software. Figured itd be quick to get me up and running. Granted i did a ton of research and ive been rather happy. I will probably install arch the next couple days, as i do like to tinker. I have a ventoy usb made up and multiple drives to play with lol.

[@DavidStarkers]

As an avid user since 98 I wasn't expecting to learn much but you guys definitely made me challenge some of my thinking, thanks.. Great points about packaging near the end also, find myself agreeing although I flat out ignore slow distros for that reason. One reason I always liked CoreOS was its dogmatic "our distro ends here, now run software design" There is an open-source ChromeOS which may have legs but ye, kinda yuck I feel.. Anyway

[@cgjoh]

I think the best thing to do is that we all agree to make a linux distro that is as vanilla linux as possible, and whatever that is, we support it in every other distro, so that there is a clear starting point, and from there they can enjoy the possibilities.

[@TheJosephAller]

When it comes to gaming too much goes into setting up everything. I would argue gaming based distros have more of a place

[@TheJosephAller]

Also, vanilla distros exist. Arch, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc... These are usually want most DIstros are based off. So if you want a basic start in Linux, start with these. Be warned though, Arch has a huge difficulty curf. So you might want to skip it

[@cgjoh]

@@TheJosephAller I use Arch, but it's still different enough from Debian which is the parent of Ubuntu. What Im saying is we need to agree on a standard, and make that distro synonymous with Linux.

[@gruntaxeman3740]

@@TheJosephAller Fedora and openSuse are made for developers who develop for Red Hat or Suse environments. Ubuntu LTS is also very enterprise stuff and it is bloated, but it is used because it is available for free. So I do value Debian a lot when it is not some enterprise environment or user is not a developer but also want all workstation/server features. Debian has many desktops that can confuse but I believe when X11 is soon dropped, some of the desktop environments are gone too because they just don't have enough resources to refactor them to Wayland. I use a lot Xfce on virtualized form but that is likely one that has no future. I bet for Gnome, LXQt and KDE. Gnome has best usability but LXQt is actually nice when computer is intended to run single application made with Qt.

[@binkycs]

I think Fedora fits that mold probably the best right now. Rolling release, repositories are up to date for every package that I've needed at least, and GNOME is perfectly fine for most users imo. A little combination of Mac and Windows aesthetic. The only issue is, some software is only distributed as .deb and not .rpm. The way I see it is, Ubuntu or another Debian based distro needs to take the model of Fedora's release and up-to-date mantra. Or Red Hat needs interoperability with .deb packages. Also, .appimage needs to be more integrated into the DEs so that I don't need to create a .desktop file just to open the damn thing from the applications menu. That is super annoying because I just don't want to go through that hassle, because I just don't really care about learning the structure of the .desktop file, remembering where they're stored, and figuring out a place to put the .appimage I just downloaded.

[@mserica6487]

One of the complaints I have with some of the Linux support forums I've been on is that people want you to jump through a lot of hoops for troubleshooting but then they just don't seem to know what to do afterwards. It feels like people are just trying to show-off.

[@bjre.wa.8681]

the "Toxicity segment was spot on. The Ubuntu group needs to restructure their environment. I think most the monitors there are asleep and let a group of Sixteen year old brats run the board.

[@hundikutsikas1]

I have a laptop of a well-known company produced 5 years ago. All kernel versions released in the last 2 years have failed. I'm waiting, not complaining. It is necessary to develop a handheld device (smartphone) running on Linux. This device can be connected to large screens and keyboards etc. wirelessly or with a single cable.

[@tomrest6402]

It is so interesting how many of the Problems I consider Features... e.g. Packard Managers

[@yourhandleshouldbe]

I do ux design. It is my job every day to make sure that the software and digital interactions that are output by my team never require reading any manual. If you want widespread Linux adoption you already failed when RTFM is ever an answer to anything. Matter of fact you already failed before anyone even expends the energy to seek out an answer on a forum. The interaction design should always be self explanatory to the people any system is designed for.

[@freelookmode9837]

Dear RTFM crowd: I did and i DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. If your next respnse is to say that linix isnt fir me then, stop going all over the Internet telling windows users to "just ise Linux"

[@ewenchan1239]

I think that the biggest problem with Linux is the fact that there aren't very many people who ACTUALLY, COGNITIVELY recognise, that the very thing that they love the most, is imperfect. Whenever you ask a question about a problem or an error that you encountered, they get so defensive as though you just called their baby ugly. That's NOT the issue. The issue is what's captured either via a copy-and-paste of the error message or, if you're not in a position to capture that, to take a picture of the monitor. When you recount your experiences (with using Linux, where you've ran into problems), Linux fanbois would tell you that you're wrong, until you produce the receipts (pictures/screenshots) and then they are, interestingly enough, they get VERY quiet after that. THAT is, what I think, is the biggest problem with the Linux community -- where they will ridicule, belittle, berate, etc. you, calling you all KIND of names, but the moment that you show them the picture of your monitor of the Linux kernel panic, then all of a sudden, they get very, very, very quiet from people who used to be very loud, when they were ridiculing, belittling, and berating you. That is, what I've found, to be the biggest problem. There are some that will actually try (or at least attempt to try) to help you figure out what went wrong. But there are quite a number who don't/won't.

[@ArturdeSousaRocha]

I may be stereotyping here but there seems to be a lot of of immature personalities in that bunch, judging from symptoms like the percentage of anime girl wallpapers. I may be reading this very wrong, though.

[@ewenchan1239]

@@ArturdeSousaRocha I dunno. I've interacted with some "seasoned, Linux 'professionals'" and their attitude towards people who don't know what they know, don't really change all that much. I think that this video hit the nail on the head with the question "if you're not here to help, then why are you on a forum?" There are quite a number of people who are like that. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that kind of a response from Linux users, in the comment section of other Linux KZbin videos.

[@fr8trainUS]

I think one thing Microsoft did early on was too make Windows pretty easy to use for beginners. Sure there is stuff you can dig into the weeds on, but most folks don't need to. Linux took the path of powerful and robust, but not easy to get into, however extremely customizable

[@Roxor128]

If you see someone else on a forum giving an unhelpful "RTFM" to someone asking a question, here's a similarly short response to give them: ATFQ - "Answer The Fucking Question!"

[@Eyuphuro]

Jay says that we should celebrate differences, and that criticizing other choices is a negative thing that hinders the advancement of Linux as a community, while at the same time saying that all distributions should stop packaging certain packages and that this is up to other formats? The question is, if someone sees value in a certain format, for any application, and has enough resources, why should they stop packaging it? Isn't this difference of opinion what makes the community even stronger? In my opinion, we are not communists or socialists, or anything like that, so if it is free software, it is free software, we will collaborate as far as our differences allow us, without needing to preach that a certain option should die, for certain cases, in favor of the other, this type of understanding will weaken our creative capacity as a community and introduce possibilities for the creation of format monopolies. Yes, different options have high costs, introduce fragmentation, etc., but that is exactly the price paid for the power of freedom of choice.

[@mademepickaname]

It's amazing how far Linux has come. I remember first using it in the late 90s, Red Hat 5.2 at the time. Hardware support was nearly nonexistent unless you had old vanilla hardware. If you bought the latest sound card for instance, thinking it would work was a pipe dream. It could've been literally a couple years before it was supported.

[@timhoenninger]

I started out running Ubuntu, tried different flavors and settled on Mate. Used it for years and continuously had issues with update degrading and irregular crashes. I moved to Linux Mint Mate, no problems with update degrading or crashes. Linux Mint Mate works so well it’s boring. I have bash, Python and C/C++ available to write scripts and programs. LMM is my everyday computer but I have a dedicated windows computer running the software for amateur radio equipment and another dedicated windows computer running Mach 3 for my cnc machines. If the support for those dedicated windows machines becomes available in Linux I’ll switch them immediately. I supported windoze for years and it’s just a resource hog bloatware.

[@johnmcpherson7603]

Jay good video as always. i am using Ubuntu latest version, but as you said i am also looking for another system just in case?

[@JohnsLinuxWorld]

Great interview and thank you for your videos. I have just surpassed a 30 day challenge i have started with Debian and am continuing to use it. Guess i should make a video 😂

[@musicproducerberlin2024]

You point out the right topics. I have same experience with linux, windows and os-x as well. I think Linux is still a system for experts. We have now countless distros in the world. Every distro can be seen as a different OS, from the position of a user that expects a tested product that meets all of hies requirements. In the backend world linux is much more common, as we have administrators that work every day with the odds of OSses ... They have developed best practices for themselfs and the requirements they have - they earn money with it. An end user has no clear requirement, except that "it should work" - and he pays money for it. So many people use server hosted apps in their iPhones, iPads, Android devices an so forth. They browse in internet, write emails, chat with whatsapp and the like . That works fine for them. A linux system that does just this for them, is good. But do not let them install something on that system. You would not want to do this , i.e. , for your car ....

[@gabor_kov]

Maybe it's just me, but using linux as a daily driver is so much easier than learning linux for enterprise or development. Maybe because i am comfortable wiping out my system if something breaks, happens, while others need their system usable at all times. I am learning linux administration, i love this channel and his teaching style.

[@sg6610]

I started on Fedora in 2008 and wireless would go down and I needed to bring it back up. However, I am of the mindset of I enjoy it when things break - that's when you learn. I miss cmd line days and now I'm back to it the last 4+ years. I had my wireless stop working on Ubuntu and tried a USB, but Linux is not always pnp and I started learning about device drivers and how to block them...eventually the wireless worked with updates. I still enjoy the troubleshooting aspect and digging deep; I want to know how the OS works inside and out. I also enjoy new things and taking them apart to understand them. Again, that is me; I have patience to dig in and understand things.

[@DontFollowZim]

It's mostly problems everyone talks about, but there are some decent insights into problems that aren't mentioned much

[@ParinyaTeerakasemsuk]

Repo is good when you're on a rolling release. It's good if you use it in a [rolling release] container. It's the WORST if you have to use a point release distro. Totally agree.

[@yellingintothewind]

I use InstaLink's 360 on Linux. There isn't a graphical frontend for controlling them, but their gesture control works out of the box for the advanced stuff, and v4l2-ctl lets you set ptz and all the other standard camara parameters. It's been great, but I've been using Linux for advanced camera stuff for 10+ years so reaching for v4l2 to see what it can do is my first step.

[@knghtbrd]

It's weird that Brett encountered "oh, you need a GUI for that??" if he was hanging out in Linux Mint spaces … they kinda frown upon that sort of behavior. Unfortunately AFAIK there is NOT a GUI for that even on Mint, yet, but y'know … that could exist. It should exist. But definitely that "RTFM" attitude has been a problem since 1997. I like the direction of smallish immutable distributions with containerized apps is the direction for the end-user desktop. It's probably not the ultimate solution for everyone, but it's a good default-sane defaults is what Linux really needs to strive for. I think an update to this video in a year or two would benefit from collection actionable points from this one, such as: Hardware support. Is there either a better chance Stuff Will Work or at least you're able to determine in advance what will and what won't? (Recent changes with Nvidia might give a couple free points on that one already!) Network config and sharing configuration: Can this be done from a GUI or at least without learning how to write config files yet? I'd look at basic setup for wired and wireless, personal firewall because you need one, and file sharing. (Printer sharing? IDK.) Software availability: Can you get the stuff you want? Like do you know where to get it from and can you get a reasonably recent version? How do you know where to get it from and what's involved. Pick several test apps. Stuff like that. And put those points out there somewhere soon so that people can look at this list of pain points and maybe address them. And maybe pick a few distributions to test out? Let's give them real report cards. Observable, measurable, actionable. I think this sounds like an interesting project, honestly! Wouldn't mind contributing to it. I wouldn't mind testing stuff to see how it fares either. I'll throw in one of my own right now: Input devices. Keyboards, mice, … and game controllers. Wired probably works, but what about wireless? Do any special features work? What if the wireless is BLUETOOTH, how stable is it? And I'm including game controllers because yes, Linux gaming is becoming more of a serious thing. Oh, and for wireless devices … can you do things like read battery levels? If there are settings for the device, what works? (Perhaps that gets into a hardware database a little?)

[@mariojpalomares2514]

I suggest people start reading The General Public License or GPL for short. This will better explain why gnu/linux will never be controlled by x entity or have a certain way of doing things. GPL exists for this particular reason. Also, people are misunderstanding of the meaning of "free". Its not what it think it means. In fact, the GPL is pretty much built on that principle.

[@ArbiterofMoths]

@@mariojpalomares2514 Uhh..yeah, I'm sure any random person will take the time out of their just to read through legal documentation and become enthusiastically invested in FOSS ideology, right..

[@mariojpalomares2514]

@ArbiterofMoths Its not going to change just because a few does not like how things are so🤷‍♂️

[@sbmb9613]

For those that have tried linux and are unsure which distro to go with, NixOS is probably the most future proof solution, given its frequency of updates compared to other linux distros.

[@_BLANK_BLANK]

I think a better response than rtfm, is linking the wiki talking about what they are asking about. There is a big value in learning to go, and read the documentation is an important thing, if you are going to really learn about linux, or just software in general. And i think pushing people towards the direction of searching for the answers themself, when they are already out there, and easy to find is a good thing. However. I think people should do it like i mentioned above, and also not just be an ass about it, because that can push people away.

[@driessyen4679]

The kinda annoying thing to me was all this talk about how there are too many different distributions of Linux, only to then disagree with design choices of the Linux they have used. If there was only 1 Linux, they'd be be stuck with those designs. At least now they can find a different distro that has people agreeing with their ideas. But I guess what they mean is "There should just be 1 good Linux, and good means all of my opinions on how to do things." Nice discussion anyway though, just cool to see what different people think.

[@jothain]

One odd thing I've noticed is interesting. There's tons of desktop UI's, but they all are absolutely horrible for touch screen devices. Hell even Wayland breaks Gnome so that you can't onscreen keyboard passwords. That's ridiculous state in this decade.

[@milohoffman274]

KDE works very well on touch devices, there is even a phone edition.

[@xritics19]

Loool and the steam deck??? Kde + touchscreen => no problem at all. Wtf stop to fire bullets on Linux when you don't know!

[@iodreamify]

yep, you're right. But as Jay said in the video, we're in a state of transition and the Wayland people working on different protocols are absolutely aware of this(just look at the accessibility discussions on the software trackers, they're very active)

[@jothain]

@@xritics19 it's purpose build device. Completely different thing that if you buy a touchscreen laptop and install like Fedora on it. Looks like you haven't even tried this scenario thoroughly.

[@gabbeeto]

Have you tried pop os? I don't have touchscreen so I can't have an opinion. Just being curious

[@Lion_McLionhead]

Remember when chatgpt was going to automate all linux support, driver writing, file formats.

[@andytidnits]

I think the problem with Linux comes down to what Bret said (to paraphrase): I couldn't get LightRoom to work. That was a show-stopper." I would guess this is true for many other software titles and users. I've installed and played with Mint, Ubuntu, and Debian. I was just toying around with them and seeing what they did and, rather superficially, how they worked. It was fun but I was never a serious user. I figure there are two approaches to making an operating system relatively ubiquitous: Do like Apple and keep iron-fisted control of the hardware and software that runs on your OS or, two, like Microsoft. I find Microsoft the more impressive of the two. Windows has to run on millions of combinations of hardware configurations and does so pretty well. It works, though not without its issues, for millions upon millions of users. I would like an OS like Linux that was not as intrusive as windows is in the privacy sphere, but that's kind of the trade off we have to make for widely accessible computing capability. At this point, most people carry a GPS enabled tracking device and smart phone on them at all times. Oh well.

[@billsmith1246]

When I started using Linux (it was Ubuntu 16.04) I had been a Windows user. Instead of breaking with Windows immediately, I felt I had to use Windows for various things. I would use a music processor (Mozart) to write or transcribe music for my use at the pipe organ. I also used a template builder to build templates for my Joomla websites without having to learn the process and software necessary to build them from scratch. After a few years, though, I learned to use Sibelius for the music, and learned to use and modify templates that I could download from the Internet. My Windows computer is used, now, for playing games while I'm listening to podcasts on Rhythm Box in my linux computer. That way I can have the games muted so my podcast listening wouldn't be interrupted by the infernal advertisements on the Windows games.

[@jooch_exe]

People forget they learned to use one system for years and get frustrated when another system works differently. If all the kids would have learned Linux instead it would be the other way around. New things are never easy, especially when you get older. Try learning to ride a bike when you're past forty. Now add to that the teacher is a bully, that's going to be demotivating.

[@funkijote]

9:55 Yup, among the greatest barriers to Linux adoption is the insularity and surliness of Linux communities, and our contempt for conventional GUI experiences with their deference to sensible defaults over customization. ChromeOS (or preferably de-googled ChromiumOS/FydeOS) is rightfully the most-used desktop Linux distro and the only one ready for adoption at Windows-scale 😅

[@theatermusic87]

The issues your both talking about with software versions and finding them, updating them etc applies to docker as well. Windows installers for all their issues come as one packages easy to get and install file... Linux and docker often don't, especially if there's something that needs to be configured

[@smalltimer4370]

I personally love Linux for the fact that it exists and that it is a viable alternative to Windows That said, and as much as I would love to move off Windows entirely, I just can't seem to find a viable path on Linux, so that I can effectively move-off Windows... :( - of this, I have tried so many times over the years, over and over again, and with much vigor, only to come crawling back to Windows - not by choice! hell no, but rather, that I was unable to sustain a suitable level of productivity on the Linux platform to make it viable That being said, and based on my own experience, I believe the missing element needed to propel Linux into Windows user territory, is that of a good VM strategy, so that Windows users can continue to work with whatever software is tying them down at the time, and without having to compromise on productivity as a result of the change.

[@PaulaXism]

Have you not heard of Proxmox then?

[@JoeSweeneybigjoe]

Regarding the RTFM comments, I would prefer people provide the snippet of help and reference the part of the manual if it exists. Some manuals don't cover all hardware and use cases (even in windows or Mac).

[@clivewi9103]

I observe two items, from a lot of videos, if you use adobe products, you can't run on Linux so linux is no good, but they don't message adobe and ask when they are going to produce a Linux version! Support is and is not a problem, depending which distribution you are using, and if you run the wrong distribution there is no support. I have to say that having been with Redhat since 1997, and now Fedora the support forum is very helpful. Everything in Linux is a file, the GUI text editors in Linux are very good and so are the BASH ones. The thing that windows users can get around is the MS have removed all of the controls, and when you have an operating system where you not only have all the controls at your disposal knowing what to do and where to do it is in itself very challenging, but no more so than going from Dos 6.22 to windows 3.0. The one problem you faced is that there are the right way to do things and the wrong way, saying that you want to do things in the GUI is in a lot of cases the wrong way and you have to accept this is not MS windows.

[@PaulaXism]

The big problem with all these "linux challenge" youtubers is this.. They use adobe to make their videos.. so for them not having that griftware is a show stopper.. and they are too lazy (or desperate for the money) to take a few days to learn how to use Kdenlive.. When youtube was first getting off the ground the "go to" video editing monster was another proprietary thing.. remember Sony Vegas? .. We just used Avidemux (basic cut and join) and had a nice experience with a simple easy low resource tool. This is why these people all come to the same "it doesn't work" conclusion.. It doesn't work FOR THEM in their professional very specific use case.. For the rest of us who just want an internet browser.. video player.. email handling rig.. like 95% of the world of home users.. it's 100% fine.. It just works.. Mint with XFCE for the last couple of decades here.. very happy with it for my online computer needs.. on 12 year old hardware.

[@giorgos-4515]

The problem is that Adobe will not create software for such a small market of people that would buy it. An ideal solution would be to somehow assign some open source developers to port Adobe to linux behind an NDA so they can viably agree to it.

[@clivewiddus3953]

@@giorgos-4515 I would agree, but to assume that windows which has only 34% of the market with windows 11 is not going to change, may be short sighted. If the adobe users stated what they wanted someone my provide it, but all of the videos I have seen have its not adobe and the door slams shut.

[@giorgos-4515]

@@clivewiddus3953 This is complex software, and if the solution is not a 1:1 copy people will probably not use it. Such software should probably be funded to be developed and mb also priced properly.

[@ironfist7789]

I think it is important to just identify what you need to do and then see if you are able to switch. If the problems are deal-breakers then maybe it is not time to switch. It is good to try the virtual machines or maybe a different machine for a while with linux. Within linux, for a long time I didn't use wayland because certain games just weren't working with my NVidia card... then I waited until the 550 drivers came out it started working. Now I use wayland on my desktop, so far so good. On my surface go I still need X because skype won't screenshare on wayland yet. Don't stress over stuff not working, just use what OS you need to and maybe in the future the holes will be fixed with people addressing the shortcomings. As far as community, I would say that the internet can be toxic in general a lot of times, but I don't know a solution for that other than to look in different places.

[@3120s]

Out of the 3 main computer makers (Lenovo, HP, Dell) Dell is the least compatible. System76 and Tuxedo Computers makes computers for Linux with Linux preinstalled so they're the best choice if one wants to use Linux as a daily driver.

[@trleith]

Very good. WRT 1.0 -- I'm always amused at 0.9 0.92 0.94 ... 0.9 ... 0.95 Then 0.951 0.952 ... Zeno's Software Development Paradox.

[@fritzbang4805]

I use many flavors of linux and have for decades. Also used windows occasionally but gave up when they started forcing people to upgrade hardware to use it.

[@adventureswithpaulandsally5516]

The reason why nobody talks about these problems is because the average Linux user isn't a complainer, they're a doer. They're not using Linux because they think they need to save the world from the dominance of Microsoft or have something to prove, they're using it because either they have a specific need they know Linux will fulfill, or they're hobbyists who enjoy playing with Linux. Linux doesn't need mainstream desktop acceptance to the "Everybody gets a participation trophy" overstimulated masses. What it should do is cause people to question whether they actually need a computer in their life.

[@Sonic6293]

How I feel. I just switched back to Arch a few weeks ago and with my own self inflected wounds of getting SSDs recognized and mounted, switching GPUs from AMD to NVidia and back, and other minutiae, and there was a part of me that was a little proud to be able to solve my own problems, but also kind of sad to not have any questions to ask.

[@highimwolf]

Not really, privacy oriented people might not be "doers" but just want to escape MS and probably Apple spyware. And want something that just works. Although id say Android can make a really solid deaktop in a lot of use cases

[@adventureswithpaulandsally5516]

@highimwolf the smartest privacy oriented people I know have no interest in a modern desktop phone or computer because they understand that, once you're connected to the Internet with hardware manufactured by companies governed by a political agenda, running software and operating systems written by many different people following their own political ideologies, you are fighting a losing game when it comes to your personal privacy.

[@zooziz5724]

I don't have time to listen atm, but biggest problem with Linux is that there isn't a distro that has everything to build a Userbase from folks leaving windows Mac. Seperatly all of those things exists but no single distro does it. What I mean by that is looks themes of both win and Mac out of the box. First boot screen it should give you a choice of picking the looks. Then paint, just paint working paint clone. Photoshop clone, some easy light music production app, video editing app all light not industry giants, but they must work out of the box and be intuitive so that you could retain hobbyists or tinkerers of arts too. And that's all that's needed for Linux to be main desktop. Once you hook folks in they'll stay and then more devs will follow or some of them users will become devs too.

[@digiryde]

"The operation is secondary...." This is the key to linux becoming a popular OS. It needs to be invisible to the end user. The vast majority of users have neither time nor desire to have to bugger with the engine of the system to make things work. They want to put the key in, start the car, and then drive with a minimal amount of fuss. They are not being paid to fuss with the system.

[@SuperBoppy]

The developers who want to make it harder to use Linux just so they can brag how smart they are just hurt the cause of getting more people to use it. (9:54 mark in video). I loaded Mint on an old laptop, just to play with Linux, and I loved it. Linux needs to move in that direction, with GUI development, also software and hardware compatibility. I'm okay with a learning curve with Linux, and so many instructive videos could help. Those who want to help people could, perhaps, point people to links of good videos or other helps that could really propel people's knowledge to where they gain confidence in the OS. Windows 11 (which I don't have - 10 on my PC's) seems to be a nightmare. It would be nice to have confidence when "taking the plunge" and make a serious switch over to Linux.

[@richard1311]

There's only one good way of switching to linux. Find old computer, try to use it as a daily on that. When you need to go back to your original computer, make a note and see if there is an alternative. Each time you find an alternative, use that instead. If you can't find an alternative, consider if it's crucial for your workflow. Learning to swim isn't doing a swan dive into rough seas. It's a paddling pool. Same for linux.

[@spectrumecho]

Jay I know you said you're not a presenter guy but honestly I'd pay real cash moneys to attend a seminar with you up front 😊

[@TradersTradingEdge]

I like LInux, but I love FreeBSD/OpenBSD.

[@tendosingh5682]

Why?