Leftist Analysis of Zack Snyder's Watchmen (2009)

Through his 2009 film adaptation of WATCHMEN, Zack Snyder showcases a better understanding of Alan Moore's work and philosophy than most of his vocal critics do.
In this video, I counter common critiques of Snyder, his politics, and his film, while also providing criticism of my own. Perhaps there is indeed an ideological and aesthetic incongruity between Snyder and Moore's respective texts.
Written, edited, and narrated by Jane Brown
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Featuring the voices of:
▶ @reisalte as Zack Snyder
▶ @omeshsingh8091 as Alan Moore
▶ @TheWormsHole as Damon Lindelof
Music by erik reeds
▶ / erik-reeds
Music by EksieKitchin
▶ / eksiekitchin
Chapters:
0:00:00 - Nerd "culture"
0:03:59 - Zack Snyder isn't "Hack Snyder"
0:08:46 - Zack Snyder isn't Randian
0:15:23 - Zack Snyder doesn't glorify violence
0:21:53 - Zack Snyder doesn't glorify Rorschach
0:38:07 - Is WATCHMEN unfilmable?
0:47:50 - Is literature unfilmable?
0:54:14 - Zack Snyder builds upon Alan Moore
0:58:26 - How WATCHMEN treats sexual power
1:05:18 - How WATCHMEN treats sexual assault
1:08:31 - (No) hope for the hero
1:16:34 - Moving forward
1:23:19 - Post-script
Sources: bit.ly/3upawEQ]
Patrons:
▶ Werner Szász, Clare, Яков Ржаной, George, Greg, Atom Jung, Wolfgang, Pikadon

[@styleissubstance]

It's worth noting that I have no ill will toward any of the KZbinrs I sample and respond to in this video. Even the content creators who are ordinarily great at what they do have a passive tendency to fall back on the reactionary impulse to problematize an artist and/or their work when their nostalgic ideal image for a given intellectual property is betrayed through artistic liberties in adaptation. The critical readings that follow aim to either unearth or construct from the ground up problematic political messaging, all while ignoring relatively progressive messages simultaneously present. Furthermore, if the intellectual property were handled with relative respect towards nostalgia in a largely conservative text (think Christopher Nolan's films), the deeply harmful political messaging will go largely overlooked. In the end, Snyder's Batman is used to critique how American patriotism demonized immigrants and foreigners in response to 9/11 through the media; meanwhile, Nolan's Batman is used to uphold the very system as a force for good in the face of an increasingly chaotic world. This video is not about "owning" the opposition. Some of the people featured like Sophie from Mars (who uses feminine pronouns now, fyi) have made pretty good videos on topics before. I am interested in critical dialog, not internet blood sports. I'm also not interested in validating nerd interests and perspectives. This video is also just as much a criticism of Snyder's Watchmen as much as it is a defense. As outlined in the video, I do believe the narrative of Snyder's Watchmen respects Alan Moore's source material as much as it possibly can, while also building upon the book's themes. The very principle of adaptation is inherently at odds with Moore's views on not only his comic but all comics, all stories designed for a specific medium. Watchmen is unfilmable because all books are unfilmable to him. It's also worth noting that Moore has more or less condemned all his superhero projects due to growing tired of nerd culture and its passive susceptibility to self-imposed infantilism and surrender to capitalist consumerism for the sake of escapism. Alan Moore definitely didn't watch the film. However, he did read the screenplay and had this to say: "David Hayter’s screenplay was as close as I could imagine anyone getting to Watchmen. That said, I shan’t be going to see it. My book is a comic book. Not a movie, not a novel. A comic book. It’s been made in a certain way, and designed to be read a certain way: in an armchair, nice and cozy next to a fire, with a steaming cup of coffee" (Jensen, 2005, EW). Moore approved of the script for as much as his dignity could possibly allow him. Hayter's script was later revised and brought to the screen by Snyder, who felt it strayed too far from the source material. His changes were made to more accurately reflect the source material. The most contentious change made in the script was the ending-- a decision made nearly two decades before Snyder's film hit theaters -- due to Moore unconsciously pulling from Outer Limits and the studios fearing legal conflict. This was confirmed by screenwriter Sam Hamm, who wrote a screenplay for Watchmen in 1989. I don't have any plans to follow this video up in the near future but figured I would at least post an update. Quite frankly, I share many of Alan Moore's views on superheroes overthrowing popular culture. I am tired of it. All of it. Even when films are good, they are still part of the problem. Zack Snyder is hit or miss on his own terms, but his films contribute to the problem. Even the process of constantly oscillating process of constructing, deconstructing, and reconstructing superheroes is contributing to the problem. Hope is essentially faith, and faith benefits religions and the systems that mimic religion. Snyder is ideologically flawed, but it is disingenuous to paint him as embodying an ideology he himself has been on record criticizing. His films reflect his ideology, but they reveal a mixture of sources-- Christian, individualist, anarchist, postmodern, etc. -- because he is a liberal and liberalism is ideologically incoherent and fundamentally broken. It's good he is no longer working under the same corporation that abused him during a time of family tragedy, especially with the horrors currently unfolding under Zaslav. There was never a SnyderVerse and there never will be. This is a good thing. Make new and original projects. Stop rehashing the old. Nostalgia should die and so should the supermen we worship.

[@The80sWolf_]

Too many super hero fans are so stuck in escapism and idealism, without even knowing it themselves. It's sad.

[@ginichilders9619]

And even more hypocritically, many of them claim that these heroes inspiring them to be better people, but they don't even live up to the bare minimum of that example.

[@Spiderstan2000]

@@ginichilders9619 Steve Shives for example.

[@kartikadewi3270]

@@ginichilders9619 TDK fanatics for example.

[@absolutespider3532]

Really enjoyed this. Discourse about Snyder's films tends to be very shallow on both sides so seeing you really dive into the text and Snyder's words in order to make your arguments felt like a great breath of fresh air. While I definitely enjoy your regular videos, I certainly wouldn't mind hearing you talk a bit more about mainstream blockbusters if you feel like you have something worth saying.

[@TheTurbanator123]

anyone ever spent time in circles that hate snyder. It is so bizarre how people pretend like someone else wont come along and change and adapt things differently again. This stuff always happens idk why snyder was treated so harshly.

[@royoconnor8646]

Tracing the origin superhero movies to Birth of Nation. That is… fucking brutal.

[@The80sWolf_]

Moore is correct about "graphic novel". It's fkn comics, all of them. And what he says at 1:13:30 makes me think of Disneys Marvel/Star Wars, to 100%. I remember back when the first Avengers came, I saw them as some government militaristic world police, but it's weird that a time before that, and also MCU, they had criticism about government having a militaristic world police in their Iron Man movies for example.

[@mariothewizard3710]

The funny part is in the Ultimate Comics that's basically what they are.

[@jyotektosgaimur]

Honestly even Iron Man (2008) seems to be heavily supportive of the US military especially with the scene where Stark waltzes into a middle eastern village and fucks everything up America style, while it was simultaneously seen as being a good thing and him learning to be "a selfless hero".

[@henriquequadros5874]

Fantastic video, seriously. Love the earnest attempt at highlighting the sincerity in Snyder's films, it seems like most of the discussion had in this website on the man is either fanatic or childishly neglectful, your video was neither. I never realized that Snyder's superhero films are a post-Watchmen re-evaluation of the traditional comic book ethos, with a post-post-modern sincerity driving them forwards, but I did realize the themes of hope and humanism in ZSJL that seemed to be very counter-intuitive to what was expected in "grown up superhero films". Can't wait for part 2, this was a fun watch

[@The80sWolf_]

Zack Snyder is a "Stanley Kubrick type" of director. He got integrity, a vision, a passion for making art that will talked about for decades and decades, rather than some Mcdonalds kind of burger meant to be eaten and then forgotten about. There is alot of people that seem to misunderstand by choice, as they have no interest to really dig into the meaning and symbolism of Zack Snyder. He LOVES Watchmen, it's obvious that comic books like that have influenced his movie making way beyond than like "copy paste a comic book panel". Same with Joseph Cambells writings, you can see patterns in even his new Army of the Dead. Also he is VERY SELF AWARE, not really the "Hack Snyder" lol. I have never seen a director more hated and more nitpicked, and more slandered like him, NEVER IN MY WHOLE LIFE. These kind of people that claim he is some "fascist randian" or whatever, must know they are making shit up, if they really THINK ABOUT IT, which I believe(or am I overrating people now?) they do, but they rather push a certain view, be it for clicks or that they have a certain agenda. It's almost like in a era when we deconstruct fkn everything, it seems people do not understand deconstruction anymore, unless it's like extremely over and the top and very obvious.

[@DerezzedMan]

Yeah he’s definitely hated for no reason. Hating a movie is one thing but hating the director and going to his movies already with the mindset that you’ll hate them is also dumb.

[@captainjakemerica4579]

Yeah no nothing about Snyder is like Kubrick and his movies aren't discussed like his and if they are its because of how awful they are

[@captainjakemerica4579]

​@@DerezzedManSnyder isn't innocent Play How He chats like some Posh pretentious jackass doesn't help his case

[@The80sWolf_]

@@captainjakemerica4579 You are wrong and cringe

[@captainjakemerica4579]

@The80sWolf_ nope that's you bucko

[@cuckmulligan7602]

Wow, I completely forgot that gorgeous shot from Spider-man 3

[@reisalte]

wow. makes me so proud to be a small part of such an amazing video ! this is fantastic work, justin. a super important analysis and documentation of information. it was astounding to see just how unfairly snyder has been treated in the realm of popular internet media criticism. you opened my eyes to a lot of things to appreciate too in snyder's work. i liked watchmen but i just know now i would also be interested in the rest of his filmography, along with an even more enjoyable rewatch of watchmen. its incredible how you compiled and edited all of this to really potently make your comprehensive points. can't wait for part 2 ! i love all your niche film writing but no one really does popular media better than you !

[@thecabbageman1]

Honestly the whole "Hack Snyder" thing didn't come out of a fan feeling that he caters to the studio's needs without caring for the story or anything. They just called him that because it rhymes with his name and the people that hate him are too stupid to even think of original insults

[@captainjakemerica4579]

No it's quite a fitting insult not just because it's from simple mind in this he tried to portray himself like he's some Grand Visionary director like Alfred Hitchcock or many others like that from the past when he isn't at all

[@thecabbageman1]

@@captainjakemerica4579 Then I guess you know better than James Cameron and all the other big directors that praised him.

[@captainjakemerica4579]

James Cameron is a hack and has lost his way he doesn't have the credibility he once had he hasn't made a truly amazing movie since Titanic

[@captainjakemerica4579]

Quite sure the other directors who praised them we're just being diplomatic also

[@thecabbageman1]

@@captainjakemerica4579 Ok bro, keep telling yourself that.

[@TheWormsHole]

Jesus that dude's arm opening and closing at 43:36 is hypnotic. Loving this so far!

[@cuckmulligan7602]

it's almost like a mouth flapping along to the voice-over

[@stevebourget]

I appreciated the honesty and courage of your interpretation. You are going against the grain of the dominant interpretation. For my part, I never understood the harsh criticism of Snyder's film and the popularity of Marvel films. His film is far from perfect, but it is interesting or more interesting than most of the blockbusters of the past 10 years.

[@styleissubstance]

Thank you but I didn't realize this video was courageous lol. I just am studying the texts like I would any other.

[@stevebourget]

@@styleissubstance I know the word courageous can make one smile. But reading the text as such has become a courageous act. Most interpretations are based on rigid ideologies. Interpreting = apply one vision of the world to the medium. To have a nuanced interpretation is dangerous in our time, which is strangely dualistic: us and them; pure and impure, etc. Maybe I am wrong, but I have the impression that we are living in mythical regression era : fiction is reified into a rigid reality, no play space is possible between our experience and the fictions. By the way, I just discovered your channel this week and just subscribed.

[@kartikadewi3270]

@@stevebourget in my opinion, Snyder made 6 perfect films in my Honesty BUT I still respect your opinion " far from perfect ".

[@dc_cristianz]

Its perfect

[@Whaddayamean13]

I always thought BvS was very meta, in that it showed us our obsessive fandom towards comic book superheroes like Superman, who we all think we have the last word on. We all think we have ownership over what Superman can or should do. We are so obsessed with power in today’s world particularly with superheroes. I think BvS was attacking the very concept of worshipping these superheroes. And by the end we see that we all have it within ourselves to make the world better and projecting ourselves onto our Gods is a dangerous thing. Superman’s death is like this return to clarity of real heroism

[@VanessaJup]

59:14 What do you mean "nevermind his blue skin and glow"!? The "ideal male body" isn't blue and glowing!? 😯 lol sorry In seriousness... I let out a small "yees!" scream when "to be continued..." popped in the end of the video, so I'm definitely for a part two. I haven't seen many Snyder films (and didn't care much for or disliked the ones I did see) but I do generally enjoy watching people discuss them. :) The Maggie Mae Fish videos on his filmography are quite entertaining to me, but the moment she talks about how she knows it isn't satire because it was modeled after a real thing made me go "huh!?" too. Oh! And whenever people talk about Manhattan's penis being distracting I'm confused, because I barely even register that it's onscreen until someone points it out (including when you just said it in this video)... I don't know if I would experience the whole Manhattan phallic presence differently if I saw it in the context of the movie as a whole, but when I've seen the isolated clips I was literally always looking everywhere but the penis, so yeah...

[@The80sWolf_]

You can even see the phallic symbolism in Man of Steel. If you look at the design of Krypton, and baby Superman flying to earth in like a "sperm" going to impregnate earth.

[@VasuJaganath]

I really do think Snyder is an auteur. Some of the choice he made specifically in ZSJL (even BvS) I didn’t understand or even appreciate but I still applaud his monumental magnum opus!

[@harshat4680]

He has a recognisable style and thematic in his movies

[@user-mb9nm7bq5e]

@@harshat4680 that’s a massive feat in my opinion. I could even tell dawn of the dead was made by him. His movies are fun and pretty, and easily digestible without being crazy dumb. IMO he’s the type of director you watch as a teen and get inspired to make action films

[@kartikadewi3270]

@@user-mb9nm7bq5e and in my opinion, His films is what cinema is, And not the gangster indie art cinema or scorsese type of cinema or tarantino style, BUT a visualization of a story through imagery and body acting

[@NotAPostingCartoonist]

In all reality, he has vision, but with how long The Snyder Cut is, I feel like he needs to get better at writing. Not to say he’s a bad writer, but there’s just too much content in the movie itself….

[@captainjakemerica4579]

Auteur yeah no hell no for Snyder

[@samlerf]

I would honestly recommend the youtube essay "HBO's Watchmen | A Thermodynamic Disaster" by Macabre Storytelling, which goes into great detail regarding the original graphic novel and its adaptations, including the Snyder Film, of course.

[@styleissubstance]

That video misses in places but articulates many of the issues I have with the miniseries. I would even go further with it though.

[@Sidharthavicious]

I'm late to the game, but I too recommend that video and anything else by Macabre Storytelling.

[@dignerds]

I disagree with Moore.. There is creativity in adaption ...It takes creativity to look at a comic and make it real.

[@Jude-db1bo]

Some Guys are Like that . I world Men

[@user-fp4ih6yl3w]

I agree with this, it's like saying that The Lord of the Rings as a trilogy is successful because it follows the books, but in reality, any director first of all thinks what he will take from the book or comics and what he will leave, what topics he will emphasize and what he will prioritize in adaptations. I think Zack really loves the Watchmen and who knows what an adaptation with a different director would be like 😏

[@jense5668]

straight up not true

[@voiceofreason467]

I don't get this whole claim about Snyder being a Randian Libertarian... this is entirely based on one singular statement Snyder had about Ayn Rand's book which was about how before reading Rand, he was never into the idea of a persecuted superman archetype because beforehand he found it a little childish. I can only assume that their reaction was, "wait, he doesn't despise Ayn Rand after reading the Fountainhead? Must be an objectivist."

[@styleissubstance]

I haven't read The Fountainhead, but I think King Vidor's film is great. That doesn't make me an objectivist lol.

[@voiceofreason467]

@@styleissubstance What you take away from a film does indeed say more about you than it does about the creator more often than not. However, its important to understand that liking films doesn't make you anything specifically. I mean, a lot of the right wing love Avatar: The Last Airbender even though its messaging and purpose is incredibly progressive. Hell, they even throw shade at the far right's obsession with cultural preservation by having the city of Ba-Sing-Se fall under the control of Azula and the Fire Nation because the cultural guardians straight up revolted against its leader because "muh stronk" fascist nonsense. Yet for some reason, a lot of Fascists like the show or at the very least, see fit to use its iconography and messaging for their purposes. The point is, that even though a message is clearly one thing, on the internet... sometimes things which don't exist in a film do exist, because the internet said so. This is why the discourse surrounding film critique is so stale and has been for the last ten years.

[@SIFAssassin]

From what I understand, Snyder likes the book for the same reason Steven Spielberg, Brad Pitt, and even Gene Roddenberry do/did. It's subject matter apparently contains themes of making something and artistic integrity. Not surprising filmmakers and actors would like it.

[@voiceofreason467]

@@SIFAssassin Unfortunately the message within the text itself comes off as being petulant, whiny and self-absorbed with no sense of wanting to work with others and their input. While it's true you can like it for that reason, the architecture that is given "integrity" stances are thing's like railroads and skyscraper building. These are hardly artistic endeavors and most are built in combination of functionality and aesthetics. Besides, an architect has to be considerate of the engineers building his stuff or he doesn't have a building at all or a railroad. But hey, there is something about characters trying to maintain their integrity, even if their integrity is wildly petulant and unrealistic. It seems to be a bit of character writing that ultimately does appeal to a lot of people. Probably because there are so few figures to look up to nowadays with any amount of fucking integrity.

[@ginichilders9619]

The hilarious thing is that when Maggie Fisheyes got called out by Zack's Muslim, POC, female, and LGBT fans for her blatantly manipulative editing of key context, she basically threw a tantrum over lhow she wasn't being allowed to be Little Miss White Savior. Like, how fucking arrogant do you have to be to claim you speak on the behalf of a marginalized group, get corrected by members of said group, and get pissy that they're not being Good Little Victims for not being on board with you blaming their problems on some Big Bad Boogeyman? Typical White Ally Nonsense right there. It's also HILARIOUS that she conveniently left Legends of the Guardians out of her Zack Snyder "analysis" because the whole movie is literally about a small resistance group fighting against a corrupt government obsessed with blood purity who kidnap and indoctrinate children AND the main protagonist is a gentle and empathetic guy who wins over others through such. Because LotG pretty much destroys her thesis.

[@styleissubstance]

Could you link me to this?

[@ginichilders9619]

@@styleissubstance I can't find a direct link, but Gwen Jae Stone, a trans woman who's been critical of MMF's takes (and made a really great video on Zack herself), has kept the receipts on how Maggie blocked POC critics with positive opinions on Zack's movies.

[@onemoreminute0543]

Whenever I hear the word 'Randianism', I have to remind myself that 'No, it's not a political philosophy on being horny'

[@StevenMystery]

i mean it basically is, have you read her work?

[@onemoreminute0543]

@@StevenMystery I haven't properly - how do you see it is embodying 'horniness'? As in, giving in to ones deepest, most selfish and primal desires?

[@StevenMystery]

@@onemoreminute0543 no i mean Ayn Rand was horny and it's reflected in her work

[@Austin-gj7zj]

@@onemoreminute0543 her writing side, Rand was a known horndog

[@Madbandit77]

Great essay. Snyder's an interesting duck (thanks Jena Malone) because he understands and respects the comic book medium and while noting the human condition.

[@KryptonCaged]

This was a great video. Thank you for taking the time to make this. It is very important and needs to exist. So thank you!

[@AppleNerd11]

Definitely interested in the part two, loved this vid!

[@Arceus5555]

I really agree with Scorsese and was initially surprised by the huge backlash he received! Even if his is sort of a "reductive" definition of cinema, he absolutely recognizes the plethora of artists that have to get together to create such a work, it's just not what anyone would have equated with the presentation and goals of cinema. There's nothing bad about them, but there's undoubtedly a difference in their forms of escapism, remarkably present even between superhero films and the oft compared western of unshakable market dominance between the 1920s and 50s. Even the western easily lent itself to small, low budget productions that could reuse assets. They could be made with or without care, and directors could have great opportunity for say in them. In superhero movies, a great demand of time, money, and effort is absolutely required to achieve the specific goals of reaching a mass marketable, profitable movie that's able to balance adherence to public interest while also holding its long-time fans near and dear, so that they can make even more money. This may be based around the specific, intricate, and ultimately capital obsessed interests of the production companies and investors, but it takes hundreds of creative minds to make such a project, even if it's not one that you're personally interested in.

[@captainjakemerica4579]

Scorsese is that a strong and it's just an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn

[@cryojudgement2376]

9:30 was such a funny transition. And yeah I hate how people politicize films and filmmakers to the extent that it’s literal delusion how they speak and perceive said films and filmmakers. Rather than consuming the media for what it is they see molehills and turn them into mountains, whether to be exxagerated or to get their agenda across.

[@The80sWolf_]

I bet Alan Moore even dislike his own fans, and would say they are wrong in many ways haha

[@__M7MD]

he already did he dislikes rorschach fans

[@Jude-db1bo]

He is a Mad Man

[@dignerds]

You are amazing ..thank you for this much needed video

[@gabe7222]

I can't believe that stuff like this has to be made into a video for everyone to learn when it's all too too obvious in the first place

[@cooltune]

Moore refuses to watch how Zack re-did his work. Zack refuses to watch how Joss butchered HIS work...... poetic.

[@R1ck_Ryder]

Moore is an overrated hack who hates comic book fans anyways who gives a shit what he thinks?

[@jense5668]

@@R1ck_Ryder Alan Moore's watchmen is genuinely infinitely better than zack snyder's surface level dumbed down shit coloured adaptation

[@fortheloveofcinema]

@@jense5668 Why are you so angry dawg?

[@algocursi2564]

At least Zack doesn't go around saying that is bad without seeing it. I respect Moore af but I think in that regard he's wrong.

[@beavisdoge237]

​@@jense5668*color

[@GuruPrashanth7970]

This video is so well made! You're awesome.

[@kiriavatar123]

This is wonderful, incredibly well researched. are you doing a series on Zacks work?

[@styleissubstance]

I plan to do a follow up at least.

[@user-fp4ih6yl3w]

I want to say thank you very much for this video, I think that most of the criticism towards Zack is unfair and ignorant, no other superhero film stuck with me like his Batman v Superman, I really love this film like other works of Snyder, I am amazed by his passion to cinematography and an approach to comicbook films 🤗

[@mariothewizard3710]

This was a great video! I liked that this was not only an analysis between three interpretations of Watchmen but you also fairly critiqued all 3 men. I can't speak about Maggie but Curio's analysis of works I've seen trouble me greatly. I know you're not a video game person but his analysis of Catherine: Full Body had some concerning criticisms that I can't say we're good faith and some others just being ignorant of the product he is critiquing. I haven't played Witcher or read the books but in that video, his response to another critic covering the games basically comes down to "You are covering the plot, not themes so you missed the point" (If either of their reading is even accurate, I wouldn't know) and an assertion that the video is concerning because people who never played the games but want to have a conversation about it, will come away with the wrong idea. I don't disagree about criticizes creators or popular interpretations however the idea we need to do this for people who never experienced the work itself is the wrong motive. If you do ever cover another superhero film Hulk 2003 would be an interesting topic to cover. I know you said a little bit in this video but I'd b interested in your full thoughts.

[@TheWormsHole]

I love the satire of Nite Owl. In some ways he's almost as funny as Rorschach, this impotent, simping, beta-male who lives off a large inheritance, can't get it up unless he's dressed as Batman, and, this part's important, becomes every bit as violent and bloodthirsty as Rorschach like five seconds after random violence touches somebody close to him. Even the name is so fucking stupid. Is there a 'Day Owl'?

[@styleissubstance]

What's interesting about Dan freaking out on that gang member is he's profiling him based on (potentially misplaced) association rather than any substantiated rationale. This was also the same reason Hollis took the fall for Dan's actions. Violence is cyclical. Rorschach is the one in that moment that is rational because of how obdurate his moral code is.

[@valuelight]

@TheWormsHole I hope you’re not mocking him for being impotent, for that kind of language is rooted in the same patriarchal thinking you’re against. Are you merely describing him as “impotent” or making fun of him for that reason? I just hate it when people use “simp” and “impotent” and “small dick” and “beta male” as terms to attack men or patriarchy when those terms actually help the status quo.

[@The80sWolf_]

The scene with the dogs, is one example of the movie doing it better than the comic.

[@Condor2481]

Thinking on the film, really I feel that Watchmen came too early, before the MCU bloomed and the Superhero genre became commonplace

[@onemoreminute0543]

Yeah , it came at a time when people were beginning to discover just how fun superhero films could be what with the inception of the MCU. It would have worked better now what with the likes of more cynical works such as the Boys existing. I think it was Nolan who said that Watchmen (the film) was ahead of its time, and was released ten years before it should have been

[@user-fp4ih6yl3w]

We have exactly the same situation in Russia as in the rest of the world in relation to Zack, supposedly he is only good with a picture and filming and has weak plots and a script, although it is a little easier to defend him in our territory, there are different videos in support of his DC films and his vision, since in many ways Marvel films are boring with treadmill and safety in the narrative, in other words, many see these films as amusement parks as Scorsese said

[@mrcaptain4324]

This video is so well made. Love it

[@joshuawhitaker2913]

BvS is such a great movie, and it even had potential for more greatness.

[@captainjakemerica4579]

Yeah about as great as passing a kidney stone

[@armanimartinez8105]

What a amazing video And use of quotes Clips And big imagery to convey your points and speak on something. So good I watched it back to back

[@midas_lost1677]

Those other video essayists, especially Maggie who's surprisingly really popular on this site are just so.... idk how they aren't doing that on purpose

[@styleissubstance]

for what it's worth I usually just assume even the good content creators to have irrational opinions on nerd media

[@1theprince1]

Really loved this. Snyder deserves some credit for the originality he brought to cbms. Can't wait for part 2.

[@kryptatrix_]

This video is incredible ! You deserve so many more views and subs!

[@patrickallen13]

Oh heck yes. I've been looking forward to this.

[@The80sWolf_]

In a alternate universe. Alan Moore and Zack Snyder teamed up and made Watchmen 2, or a original work. Good video, saved and shared!

[@livpeake8108]

I would love to see more analysis of the comic book and its themes especially I am studying this at uni right now and I would love to write some essays on it :)

[@TheProtagonizer]

Yesss new video

[@Spiderstan2000]

Oh god moviebob.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

It's just a mention, it will pass

[@Spiderstan2000]

@@kostajovanovic3711 moviebob lost a right to an opinion after the crap with Lindsay Ellis and cuties.

[@ginichilders9619]

@@Spiderstan2000 I'd say he lost it due to his tweet where he wished eugenics wasn't sullied by the nazis and his whole "there are no bad tactics, only bad targets" mentality.

[@nope5657]

You and The Worms Hole going after Maggie Mae Fish gives life. I have rarely seen "analysis" on YT that vapid and in such obvious bad faith. It's so off the mark and overtly malicious I would in all honesty call it flat out slander. Curio's takes are also insanely off the mark to the point where I don't even know what films they watched. But I don't think they're being malicious. I just think they're incredibly drunk on the Snyder hatred and had their mind made up.

[@styleissubstance]

I actually think Fish has worse videos lol

[@nope5657]

@@styleissubstance OOooo do tell.

[@mariothewizard3710]

Don't usually comment before finishing a video but Wheadon sounds so defeated @ 4:34

[@brick7317]

I really like his version of Watchmen but this really cleared up criticisms I had of the film! Great video

[@The80sWolf_]

I would also bet that the coming Batman movie, will attempt to do what Batman V Superman already did. We have to wait and see though, but remember my comment.

[@__M7MD]

elaborate

[@The80sWolf_]

@@__M7MD I never do. I let the readers think xD

[@__M7MD]

@@The80sWolf_ " what batman v super man already did " is so fucking vague and could mean anything which means your comment means nothing at all if you don't elaborate

[@The80sWolf_]

@@__M7MD Wait after the movie is released instead.

[@__M7MD]

@@The80sWolf_ I’m not so hyped for it because I’ve seeing so much batman that I’ll doubt they will bring anything new to the table other than that abomination terrible batsuit or the terrible batman voice just like Christian bale all over again plus I’m still salty we didn’t get the batfleck movie or even Jeffery Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne batman that would be BADASS

[@maulkiller10]

Make one on bvs or more star wars prequels

[@maskofshy]

I disagree with ur opinion in other aspects. But your points on Snyder i'd say made me value his work even more.

[@truthteller5426]

Great video. You have a new subscriber.

[@voiceofreason467]

I've finally gotten back to this video and the part about Alan Moore just makes me want to simply bash my head into a brick wall. The guy is, for all intents and purposes a hypocrite on so many level's. He is against the very idea of using a medium to adapt works that were never meant to be adapted into other mediums, yet that's what he did with Lost Girls and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. He is constantly and consistently trying to downplay the superhero genre as not having grown up and yet treats every singular enjoyment of stories involving superheroes as adults in a state of emotional arrest, when the reality is, only a fucking child would be concerned about liking thing's meant for children (and yet that assumes the entirety of the genre is meant for children, which isn't really true in the least and wasn't the case for when Alan Moore wrote Watchmen to begin with). Alan Moore, in all of his avant garde ways, has become the same kind of geriatric as Bill Maher was when he did his whole speel about comics being for children. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he not only watched Bill Maher's little segment, but also read it and said, "Hot damn, this guy gets it just like me!" Moore may have had some points in the past about comics when he was writing, especially that of the superhero genre... but his whole attitude is just him being pissed off at DC for stealing his work and thereby he is taking it out on the entire genre for no reason other than a feeling of self-righteous indignation and impotent rage.

[@styleissubstance]

While I'm more charitable towards Moore than you are, I fully admit adopting his wildly inconsistent and hypocritical views on the cultural landscape as a means for analyzing the adaptive dissonance between comic and film was a daunting task, because he is all over the place. I wanted to neutrally represent him, but I also think the limitations of his words are exposed on their own.

[@ungulatemanalpha]

moore's argument is a pretty classic is-ought problem - he's opposed to adaptations on the grounds that their production is creatively bankrupt, when the goal of an adaptation ought to be to reinterpret a work in a new creative form. all art is a process of adapting a concept or experience out of the mind or minds that created it, and the audience is always interpreting it into their own minds.

[@urbaneblobfish9624]

I think his views mostly come from the bitter history he has from being fucked over by corporations who wanted to take his art to milk it for as much money as possible without any regard for Moore’s intentions or wishes. I wonder if Moore’s views on adaptations would differ a bit if he had not been treated so horribly by DC and other companies.

[@HamzaAnsari1425]

6:18 - where is that clip from?

[@styleissubstance]

Sucker Punch Extended Cut (not directors cut)

[@HamzaAnsari1425]

@@styleissubstance Thank you so much. I just wanted to say: fantastic video!!

[@CarlosGonzalez-zp4sw]

Really great vid

[@tatesears8958]

This is a really brilliant video

[@deadman-zc5ro]

All I'm going to say is Thank you for making this video

[@CodingDruid]

awesome stuff

[@beavisdoge237]

what happened to the other watchmen video about the hbo show?

[@styleissubstance]

I unlist my weaker videos from time to time

[@beavisdoge237]

Gotcha, understandable. Thanks and cheers.

[@alfredborden5675]

Incredible video

[@felixgoobins]

This is a great commentary on the guy's work 😉😉😉😉

[@jaquaistaylor3794]

That 9/11 Apple Juice Clip just resurfaced a few weeks ago it’s crazy to see it here in a video made 2 years ago

[@styleissubstance]

Aww so now that people know about it, they won't be as shocked lol

[@NoHank-fm7vt]

Amazing analysis!

[@this_is_AK]

This was really one of the best ZS videos. I love Zack with all my heart. I love his movies. Thank you so much for making this. I NEED A PART 2.

[@jburquist83]

Fascinating stuff.

[@Jimbot256]

Can't believe I didn't see this video for two years - until someone linked it to me on a discord server. I love the algorithm! A lot of the examples really took me back - you could really just say anything about his films and amass a following looking for validation. The levels of confirmation bias on display was really staggering. I remember those Sophie and Maggie videos and wondered if they saw the same film I did. I wasn't a fan of his until his Superman films so I really didn't pay attention to him before then but I do remember reading he was some sort of "dudebro jock" who "didn't understand what he was adapting" and that was around the time of Watchmen so there was always some sort of stigma attached to him - he just graduated to randian objectivist. I mean, a lot of people say it so maybe there's something to it, right? Then I saw Man of Steel because at least I get to see Superman on the big screen and was blown away by it. How can an, essentially, "idiot" make this kind of film? There was so much going on. He has his issues and some criticisms of his I do agree with but a lot of them seem to attack him and, now, his fanbase. The later can be toxic, like any fanbase, but using that as a cudgel of his films is just some weird mechanism to be negative for no reason. I remember some Justice League reviews went out of their way to mention the fanbase, like they had to qualify this positive review with some sort of negative. It makes finding any kind of good critical review of his that actually engages with the film really tough. As a recent example, no small number of reviews on Rotten Tomatoes (the only way to tell if a film is objectively good, it seems) were just two minute hate on the director and/or fanbase without anything of substance to say. I think there's a subsection of fans who really want videos to tell them the thing they like is, indeed, good. I mean, it's nice to hear the person on the screen say nice things about the thing you like! But I find videos like this that talk about the themes, how they're reinforced by the filmmaking and all that jazz are infinitely more insightful and fun to watch. Even if he doesn't quite nail the execution I find his films to have something of interest, and very often very positive and humanizing, to latch on to. You'll never convince me that this guy believes in objectivism or any of those things people said about him in those examples you used, they're antithetical of the text and subtext of his films. Anywho, this is too long a comment already. So TL;DR is that the video's great. Loved it much!

[@jameshughes7946]

This is dope. Have a sub.

[@DeathAlchemist]

I still need to see this movie. No idea of I will agree or disagree your take, but I know at least.

[@scottaparris]

Thank you.

[@claduke]

I think this might be my favorite video of yours. Of course, as an objectivist myself, I had my disagreements with your assessments (lol), I like adding your perspective to my repertoire. Looking forward to part 2, if it happens, as well as continuing Prequel videos.

[@styleissubstance]

Glad you liked the video! Yeah, my goal with this channel isn't even necessarily to get people to agree with me but rather to think more critically and consider other perspectives. For the record, I do think his films promote individualism and he probably channels Rand (alongside Moore, Miller, and McCarthy) throughout his filmography in different ways regardless of where his core political views lie. This just makes his work more and more interesting to me. Does it warrant some criticism? Maybe, but people are doing a bad job at it so far.

[@The80sWolf_]

Being an objectivist is just a idealistic cope.

[@claduke]

@@styleissubstance Yeah, I definitely think he’s influenced by Rand and you can definitely see his films through an Objectivist perspective, but I don’t think that’s the primary with them and he’s certainly not preaching or anything like that.

[@Donker_Dank]

It always goes back to moviebob

[@KrolKaz]

Crazy how you can't even make films these days without being a Democrat, and even then you have to defend yourself. Hollywood is such a diverse and open place, very accepting of those whom they disagree with 🤣😅

[@PrincessNine]

I'm making this comment to help your video. Majority of fans of MCR work can tell you a lot of their songs have a sly sense of humor through satire and commentary through a lense of playful irony. You can often hear the seething thoughts and feelings hiding beneath a lot of the songs. For the better. Which adds to the fun of enjoying their work. It's why you'd hear the occasional fan declare them as not emo. Sitting down with.....all their songs really shows that. I mention this because, there is an established precedent for their music to be going for "irony" or something like that. I'd give some examples but honestly I'd rather anyone to just pick up their music and form their interpretations. ("Trust me")

[@cruherrx]

This is rad as shit.

[@onemoreminute0543]

The internet: "Snyder's films are bad! They're just pretentious garbage which are just edgy for the sake of being edgy! Also nihilism, cuz of the desaturated colour". *The Batman releases, which literally had the most edgelord monologue in the beginning with rain, moody lighting, has the hero wear eyeshadow, and ends rather cynically* The internet: "Masterpiece" (No real hate to the Batman, though I do think it's very overrated. I just find the 'edgy' statements hilarious)

[@user-fp4ih6yl3w]

It would be great to discuss the movie if I finish it, because I fell asleep in the first third because nothing interesting happens for a movie called Batman, just a ridiculous follow-up to the story of Catwoman. Meanwhile, BvS keeps me going until the very end

[@DARILARYON]

Y'ALL LOVE MEATRIDING☠️☠️☠️

[@onemoreminute0543]

@@DARILARYON ?

[@PrimoPete]

Lol, Alan "all my best ideas come from deconstructing others' stories and characters" Moore saying Hollywood hasn't had an idea for decades.

[@throwaway7403]

To be fair in the original watchmen comics, around the prison break issue I believe, rorschachs anonymous violence is compared to the Klan. Not defending the TV series I agree it's fairly tonedeaf just that I don't believe it to be exclusively derived from lindelof misreading that quote of moores

[@midas_lost1677]

Snyder's politics are pretty weird on their own. And the specifics of it he keeps to himself. There's a drawing of a Excalibur on his gym floor and inscribed on it is "HG 1886". A reference to Henry George, an American economist who ran for mayor in that year. The inscription also says "The Land and the King are one", and I guess thats a reference to George's theoretical stance that ownership of land be abolished. Otherwise, the only other hint towards Snyder's politics I've found is him liking posts endorsing Senator Sanders in the American Democratic primaries.

[@styleissubstance]

his wife also seems to be pro Palestine

[@Spiderstan2000]

Meh people have opinions I guess.

[@terredelsogno856]

The Land and the King are one cames from Excalibur film by Boorman, is a line said by Lancelot to Arthur

[@user-xr5yu7nw7b]

Brilliant

[@styleissubstance]

working on part 2

[@Salsmachev]

This was really interesting! I don't particularly like Snyder's films, and I think hyper-ironic framing is virtually doomed to failure (even without the modern culture of bad faith "irony"), but I can at least appreciate the thought and care that goes into his work. I'd definitely be down for part 2. It feels a bit greedy to say since this video is an hour and a half and took lord knows how long to make, but I'd have liked a little more meat in that last section about Snyder understanding superhero comic history better than his critics. I think I'd enjoy a deeper look at those films. I do think mainstream corporate monstrosity films warrant more serious analysis than they get (I remember a video from Every Frame a Painting in which he uncritically dismissed a scene from Avengers without realising that it was actually shot in a very intentional way that fit the pacing and narrative and that making it more like a Kurosawa film as he suggested would actually have been worse). That said, I think it's more something to dip your toes into if it interests you, rather than something I'd want to see as a mainstay of the channel. Focusing on more independent creators who happen to make films with broad appeal seems to be giving you a good balance so far. I don't know if it makes sense from your end, what with the algorithm and demonetisation and such, but I do enjoy longer videos like this that get to go deeper into a single topic.

[@styleissubstance]

I didn't elaborate more on that point at the end because it will be focused on whenever I cover his DC trilogy in a part 2. (No plans when that will be written). Right now I would like people to think about the cultural context of Watchmen and how it informs his subsequent films. Initially I wasn't planning on ever really covering pop culture, but I came to realize I think I'm very good at it lol. Right now I am more focused on finishing a video I'm making on a German film by Rainer Werner Fassbinder.

[@Salsmachev]

@@styleissubstance I was hoping that was why! I look forward to part 2 whenever you get to it. If you enjoy making videos about pop culture you should absolutely go for it! Cool! I'm subbed so I'll see it when it comes out. Also thanks for taking the time to reply to comments!

[@duganrust8917]

I hope folks don’t really think libertarianism and fascism are the same thing

[@onemoreminute0543]

These folks literally think: Fascism + Randianism + Nihilism = Zack Snyder Thats like saying Communism + Anarchism + Nihilism = Adolf Hitler

[@Ityka023]

Snyder is a genius!

[@AceLM92]

An interesting video, I'm glad I watched it to the end, because you basically addressed any point or counterpoint I would have made in a comment, so I won't waste time there. Only thing I'm curious of isn't really related to the point of this video. You mentioned Maggie Mae fish and I recall one of her videos about Tim Burton films, so it made me curious whether or not you plan to discuss his films if it's not already in the works.

[@onemoreminute0543]

If you do ever get round to making part 2 to this vid then I'll just warn you... you may have to address the idea that 'Snyder is a nihilist' I'm not joking 😳

[@styleissubstance]

If anything, my critique of Snyder is he's not nihlistic enough.

[@onemoreminute0543]

@@styleissubstance Yeah exactly! It'd make more sense to critique him for being much more optimistic than Moore concerning the morality/use of power by these superheroes. People seem to mistake his films cynicism for nihilism. The crazy thing is, some of these people I've come across seem to think that his DC trilogy is both nihilistic AND objectivist/randian at the same time. So you're telling me that his films ascribe to both a philosophical belief and..... a belief in no philosophy at all? And that's one hell of a nihilist filmaker when the ending to one of his films concludes that, despite humanity's shortcomings, 'men are still good' :O

[@NinjashoeGames]

@@onemoreminute0543 it’s funny when people say his dc movies are dark and depressing, BvS sure but MoS and ZSJL? Not a chance.

[@onemoreminute0543]

@@NinjashoeGames These people seem to be under the impression that 'nihilism is when stuff is dark'. Take the Wilk Report for example. I've engaged in something of a debate down there but some of the arguments seem to be along the lines of 'hurr he made Superman wear a black suit! Nihilism! ' If anything, the most nihilistic aspect to the DC trilogy I've seen is General Zod after the World Engines destruction and when he becomes Doomsday. They're very clearly coded as the antagonists, and by extension anti-nihilist. They also claim that the Whedon cut is better and that the silent majority hated the Snyder cut so... yeah. I mean, how can you listen to MOS soundtrack alone and conclude 'dats nihilism!' from something as moving as the 'flight' theme? :?

[@NinjashoeGames]

@@onemoreminute0543 Yea I don't know you could walk away from Man of Steel and ZSJL thinking it's dark, especially with Man of Steels ending of him going to the daily planet.

[@thezieg]

I don't think you mentioned Dave Gibbons once. It was Gibbons who framed Comedian's pre-rape approach to Silk Spectre and Gibbons who created a full frontal nude of Dr Manhattan (issues you address quite well, BTW). Moore wrote it, but Gibbons SHOWED it. Moore is a talented writer, but a crappy speaker. I don't think his problem is that he disagrees about the feasibility of adaptation; I think he honestly does not understand it. His inability to express his objections to adaptation come across as curmudgeonly because he is diminished in the forum of the spoken word, but after some time the real issue becomes clear: Moore cannot make his point because he doesn't get it. (I often bristle at the phrase, "He doesn't know what he's talking about" because it's a dismissive way, without making a counter argument, of disagreeing with someone. In Moore's case, however, I not only disagree with him, as you do, but I honestly think on the subject of adaptation Moore does not know what he is talking about. I suspect you came close to saying the same thing.) Now what about Gibbons? He liked it very much. Read just one of his interviews here. editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/dave-gibbons-talks-watchmen/

[@gerchop9304]

Have you seen vox lux esa?

[@styleissubstance]

Not yet, but I've been meaning to. It looks up my alley.

[@gerchop9304]

@@styleissubstance I believe your friend your cult boyfriend muted me because I hounded him to watch vox lux please recommend him to do so cuh

[@styleissubstance]

Lol well it's his fault for not watching it!

[@Kuudere-Kun]

Watchmen is Moore's only Deconstruction, his actual batman and Superman comics do Lionize those heroes, contrary to the assumption some people want to force into them because of Watchmen. The Killing Joke is all about how The Joker is wrong.

[@styleissubstance]

You wouldn't call Lost Girls a deconstruction?

[@henriquequadros5874]

What about Miracleman/Marvelman?

[@styleissubstance]

I use "deconstruction" loosely. I've read a compelling argument that Watchmen isn't even a proper deconstruction based on the general tenets of deconstructionism. I also wouldn't use the word "lionize" in this case. It's often a sign of strong writing to not have characters fully embody good/bad as an absolute.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

@@styleissubstance In modern discourse Watchmen is the definition of what a Deconstruction is, every argument I get into about if a given Anime is a deconstruction comes down to comparing it to Watchmen. My point is in Moore's Batman and Superman stories they just as Heroic as every other contemporary writer wrote them (except Miller).

[@BatDevilSpawn]

@@Kuudere-Kun The argument against Watchmen being a deconstructive text is that most of the ways in which it is claimed it deconstructs superhero tropes were standard within superhero comics by the time it was written. Things like more realistic violence, morally grey and psychologically troubled anti-heroes and villains, normal everyday problems outside of the costumes, superheroes used as political symbols/commentary, the superhuman who becomes detached from the rest of humanity, a noble, heroic person who ends up committing acts of evil, etc. Watchmen did not invent any of these, and were well-explored territory before it appeared, yet critics and fans claim these elements make it a deconstruction. Yes, Watchmen is a more mature handling of these things than a lot of what came before it, and it has the advantage (at the time) of being a singular, contained story, and did not need to follow the seralized, soap operatic nature of ongoing superhero comics as a result. However, that's still a thin case for the deconstruction claims that most make for it. This shouldn't be a marker of quality, just like how when something that is labeled as 'experimental' does not really fit the criteria upon closer inspection, but the label itself should not be a marker of quality in of itself.

[@thats4thebirds]

I’m sorry, but it didn’t exist. They had to pay the entirety of a movie in money to make the cut exist in the world.

[@LyinkKralonMP_UAsoviet]

I am communist myself? Do leftists in USA really find 300 fascist cause depicting at the time Ancient Greece where slavery was common? Really?

[@styleissubstance]

Apparently.

[@LyinkKralonMP_UAsoviet]

@@styleissubstance No wonder people in the west don't take the left seriously.

[@silverloveguns]

m night shaloman

[@jackreeder215]

Something I never got about Moores work is how he portrayed Rorschach as a Fascist, yet Oxymandias is the stereotypical "Aryan". That Moore is a socialist and has a greater good narrative with Ozymandias, and imo Ozymandias was intended to be a Socialist hero, yet hes the 0.00001%. Personally I think Rorschach was right in the end and that Ozymandias should be punished, granted I think the book in general is overrated and Moore is a hack. Especially with V for Vendetta and how it tries to frame V as evil as the Fascist Totalitarian State.

[@roachofdoom1234]

Finally a GOOD video on Snyder. His detractors are so insanely evil and deranged

[@HR4_]

Ikr! Agreed.

[@__M7MD]

My opinion on watchmen Movie>comic>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show The show is so traaaaasssshhhhhh and people have the audacity to say the show gets the ideas of the comic more than the movie ? Like wtf And I don’t even love the movie but it was good and the show was just so disappointing the first episode was hard to watch but I watched the ultimate edition of the movie and liked it the movie gets a 7/10 for me

[@The80sWolf_]

I am sure many of those saying that, just say it to defend the show, not because they really believe it themselves.

[@__M7MD]

@@The80sWolf_ If those who hate the comic love the show I would get it but loving the comic and hating the movie that’s copying the comic while loving the show just makes no sense to me it’s insulting to my brain

[@Jude-db1bo]

Series was not Bad . I Liked it Very much .

[@__M7MD]

@@Jude-db1bo For me it was very hard to watch non of the characters were likable

[@Jude-db1bo]

@@__M7MD You didnt Liked Hooded Justice ????

[@chloegoodwin2482]

I think the fact that he removed any ambiguity about if the killer was guilty or not doesn't prompt the viewer to question whether or not Rorschach is right or wrong for being judge, jury and executioner in that situation. It is far more designed to fill the viewer with disgust at the actions of the criminal and thus entirely fuel the revenge fantasy of the viewer. Thats why I think a lot of people see it as making excuses for him. Also I think it was slightly dishonest to frame "You're not meant to think Rorschach is cool" as "You're not meant to think he's an interesting character". I think the implication there is very clearly that you aren't meant to agree with his methods or think he's in the right, and many, many people do think that. Same thing happened to the Punisher. Nobody thinks Vader is cool because we wish somebody had the balls to...help the evil Emperor take over the galaxy. We just like his funny hat and cape. Maybe it isn't Snyder's fault but at the end of the day I personally don't think Snyder did enough in that scene to make it anything more than a very, very awful person getting the punishment that most people would think he deserves. It's kind of a power fantasy for a lot of people and it always will be.

[@styleissubstance]

Interesting points here. In the film, the killer is undeniably evil given his confession. The original script and Snyder's commentary also states he's a pedophile. Rorachach kills him after the confession and subjects him to a butchering instead of citizens arrest. I can definitely see room for the argument that this framing aligns the revenge as not so much morally grey as it is black and white. I stand by the points I made but I do see room for disagreement, sure. I can see how the Vader / Rorschach comparison may not be the best reference point. I think it's easier to make the case with films like Birds of Prey and Joker (neither of which I like) as they frame the violent actions of antiheroes ultimately similarly morally but the difference in tone ultimately is what leads to outrage or praise. I think Rorschach is a cool character just like I think Travis Bickle is. I don't think they're good people and sensationalizing then misses the point.

[@bennash7392]

I reject your hypothesis

[@styleissubstance]

I reject your mom

[@The80sWolf_]

The Snyder hating club have arrived

[@styleissubstance]

@@The80sWolf_ na Ben is cool lol

[@kostajovanovic3711]

@@The80sWolf_ you're here to start drama?

[@The80sWolf_]

@@kostajovanovic3711 cope harder