Legion Terminator Discussion - Getting Started in Horus Heresy

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[@filipmanicmushroomsandrzej4073]

Ok, I just have to ask at this point, I have heard it so many times on youtube about rad granades and instand death, but my book says: "Note: This does not affect Instant Death Tresholds", at the end of the description for rad granades rules. Is this a common mistake or is my book different? PS. I really like your content about 30k.

[@TeAXIIIT13]

My books say “does affect”

[@deadmhan6004]

I had to double check this again, as this sounded odd. You might wana re-read the page, as mine says "Note: This Does affect Instant Death thresholds." Ya probs misread due to the linebreak after 'Does'

[@filipmanicmushroomsandrzej4073]

Thanks guys :D then mine is different, that does clear things. Glad I asked. Maybe It might be due to a fact that mine is a aparently dodgy pdf found somewhere on the internet :|

[@TheOuterCircle]

You have fallen for GW's Trap Card! Regions have different books and there are errors from region to region, with different areas having different rules. Solarite Gauntlets are Master Crafted, S10 and AP1 in one place, Double Strength AP1 in another and Strength 10 AP2 in yet another! I have seen this first hand, and it's likely due to slightly different versions of the Rules going to the printer at different times!

[@filipmanicmushroomsandrzej4073]

That is really interesting thing, thanks a lot.

[@Metalgearfox2000]

Love the gorgon terminators, use them a lot in My iron Warriors forces. Remember, iron hands are a few Hazard stripes away fron being traitors.

[@kaiohhyoh8406]

Frickin legend. Iron hands are pretty cool looking, but also boring.

[@thewayfarer8849]

Read Eye of Medusa if you want to see Iron Hands out bastard the IW, good inspiration for tech affinity marines. Remember lore wise IW took a lot from Dark Mechaniucm and Istvaan, they have the aptitude but you could even run it as them being terminators who claimed the X's suits as trophies.

[@Metalgearfox2000]

@@thewayfarer8849 now thats a great piece of fluff right there. Gotta love how inhuman both legions are.

[@deadmhan6004]

In my experience, Contekar are a type of terminator I call "MEQ bullies". These are good at killing massed power armour (think tactical statline) while being tanky enough to wade through a massed bunch of attacks. This is not only because of the chainblades mulch power armour, but because they're kind of an infantry shooting unit dressed like a melee unit, due to the sheer amount of shooting a squad of these can drop. Again, this is in my experience, from fighting them so far.

[@sanninjiraiya]

I think a lot of people miss this about them. Picking an unfair fight in their favor is fluffy for the Nightlords.

[@xammit7579]

The problem is Night Lords already have massive amount of MEQ Bully Power. Night Raptors with Claws, Anything with Rotor Cannon, even Tactical Marines with bolter and Bayonets.

[@MaxZRider]

Useless capability

[@kennethbarrett2389]

I use them as my deep strike bully and dreadnought killer, you can only make so many 2+ saves before delfagrate murders you and use them to hammer the back line. Night lords never fight fair and use excessive force when really they only needed a few shots. They're not effecient they're fluffy.

[@andrewbakescakes9684]

@@kennethbarrett2389 - How do they bully a dreadnought? 15 dropping in is 60 volkite at S6. You hit with 2/3rds, so 40 hits. With your bonus of +1 to wound vs. outnumbered, you are still only wounding with half because of T7. So wounding with 20. Dreadnought has a 2+, so about ~3 wounds get through. And then one more from Deflagrate. Then you get wrecked by Return Fire. At this point, your Contenkar are 625 points and are about to lose to a ~200 point unit. And, let's not forget how your squad would get smoked by Interception, because ain't no way they walking/driving there.

[@Warpwaffel]

Lerneans may not be the best Terminators, but luckily the Alpha Legion can just take Huscarls or something. :D

[@jbumgarn]

I'm just not excited about having to spend an HQ slot to do that though.

[@MrCitizen0]

They domt get legion specific bonuses

[@MrCitizen0]

Well people hate me more becusse I play all dreadnought army only and smash people

[@KapitanPoop]

HYDRA DOMINATUS !

[@MLaak86]

I'm actually kinda glad that Grave Wardens are a heavy slot choice - since the Elite Slot is already crowded as heck as is never mind when you chuck the DG specific options in as well.

[@batteredwarrior]

The conversion beamer is all about the blind rule with Lerneans.

[@4atx3]

Unsure why GW want Red Butchers to be terrible. WS matters defensively now, Red Butchers: 'Hold my hat'.

[@zetho7872]

I have 15 of them and cant play them anymore without crying

[@darko-man8549]

Why not give them fight twice or fight on death to compensate? Why?!?

[@hydradominatus3661]

Other legions: *stares menacingly* Red butchers: my skull for the skull throne it is

[@operkoi8954]

Do they not get the -1 str to enemy attacks that means str 8 won’t instakill them? It’s not great but unless they’re fighting a thunder hammer unit they should largely hit first with the claws then when the weakened units power fists or chainfist swing they aren’t killing a model per wound.

[@DirtyMardi]

@@operkoi8954 they do get -1 str on attacks against them, but the rule specifically says that it doesn’t affect instant death threshold lol.

[@hydradominatus3661]

The word bearers having no terminators is pretty funny like couldn’t they get maybe a possessed terminator unit or a proto-chaos terminator Edit: To be fair to the lerneans, why would the alpha legion need good terminators when they can just steal someone else’s 😂

[@darko-man8549]

I want terminators wrapped up in scriptures rather than armour 🎉

[@hydradominatus3661]

@@darko-man8549 welp you know what they say, my faith is my shield and all that

[@LordMacragge31]

the word bearers already have the most unique stuff

[@darko-man8549]

@@LordMacragge31 I believe that's the Imperial Fists

[@LordMacragge31]

@@darko-man8549 nah, word bearers have 4 units and 4 characters.

[@Connordaboss45]

It's also funny that with the rules as written that the power glaives are 1 handed and you can take a combiqeapon with it on ebon keshig... but the kit treats them like they're two-handed. Oh 2.0 rules writing

[@bingus282]

Red butchers are actually even worse -- now they are hit as with WS3, not on 3+, meaning many units hit them on 2+. They used to be very good last edition, and FW must have sold enough of them.

[@Ally.Cat.252]

My style of play is theme’d based not trying to win, so I love my Red Butchers.

[@DemonAce18]

I honestly believe that GW divided up the 20-odd special terminators into 2 categories. 1 group is very good at killing dreadnoughts, elite infantry, and vehicles while the other group is very good at killing power armor and everything that group 1 shouldn't fight. Firedrakes are very good at killing elite units with their discount permanent Hatred while Lernaeans will mow down almost any none terminator unit for the price of a basic one. Lernaeans ability to get +1 to hit against any Legion makes them to me a better cataphractii terminator unit. Thank you for the video and have a nice weekend.

[@DeusExMachina10001]

The problem is that the Legions that get stuck with the Terminators that kill Power Armor almost always have something else that can do that job just as well but more cheaply, and don't get an anti-Terminator unit to compensate. Plus the ability to kill Power Armor isn't really anything to be excited about anyway.

[@batteredwarrior]

​@@DeusExMachina10001 I mean, you can say that about any unit designed to counter anything. 🤷‍♂️

[@killakhan7863]

I would say the big saving grace for Crimson Paladins is the Day of Sorrows because they become an objective taking unit with access to WS5 Powerfists and Chainfists but if you aren't using Day of Sorrows than a Command Squad is probably better.

[@Azkaellon9001]

I personally disagree on Cenobium, the greatswords are great terminator murderers. Instant death is fucking awesome as you say, but you focus on the low AP rather than the fact they have rending, plenty of attacks, very high WS (WS6 right? or is it WS5 with +1 to hit) and that high S means a low to-wound value. This basically means through overwhelming amounts of attacks that immediately kill a model combined with lots of attacks that get the rending off, on average they're absolutely one of the top 3 units out there. Also the sergeant is basically better than a praetor in some ways, probably enough to be on par. It's massively undercosted for what they are!

[@yawnandshrug3224]

Actually no, Cenobium have an average number of attacks with limited means of increasing them. Plus with their instant death procs on a 5+ to wound, statistically you need about 9 attacks to proc 1 instant death. That's not a great conversion rate. This means that generally, they will not wipe a unit of fist or hammer wielders at initiative and then suffer on retaliation. Hence, Cenobium will do damage but likely die in the attempt. Consequently, Cenobium do not trade down into 40 - 50 point terminators well, however they do trade cost effectively into anything more expensive than themselves, that is the point of the unit.

[@DirtyMardi]

A unit of Cenobites with TGSs will lose to a regular cataphractii unit with thunder hammers.

[@johnroberts8793]

"Red Butchers don't cut it"- top tier pun, Macca

[@LeopoldZ]

I'm honestly a bit confused on why you think the charge is so important for the phoenix Terminators. The extra attack is nice, but they still strike at I5 thanks to reach on the spears. Also, since they can increase their WS to 6 for defense, they can become very durable if you really need them to be.

[@DemonAce18]

I think the reason why the charge is needed is that they have a very low amount of attacks, and if you make them WS 6 you are reduced to 1 attack.

[@LeopoldZ]

@@DemonAce18 I think the issue point of view, I see them as a defensive unit. They're not really for offense, at least not against other terminators.

[@DemonAce18]

@@LeopoldZ The only counter I have to that is defensively they would be good, but a Custodian guard squad or dreadnought will end them in melee. Being an anvil or shield only works if you can last for 2 battle rounds in melee.

[@LeopoldZ]

@@DemonAce18 A charging dread with two melee weapons kills just about 1,4 phoenix Terminators, that's somewhere in the ballpark of 4 rounds, about as well as anything will fair against a dreadnought. Custodes will probably mince them to be fair.

[@Jackalos1]

@@DemonAce18 If you run the with your warlord that has Paragon of Excellence, you can use Hold the line to trigger +1WS when they are charged too. If you want, you can then use Perfect Fury to cancel out the fact that you didn't get the charge (or play defensively with enemy hitting on 6s)

[@CaptainPlunk]

You forgot to mention that phoenix guards are also characters meaning they can spread wounds around before dying Which gives them a lot more resilience compared to other terminators On the cata/tarta debate, I would also counter the fact that running is a lot more reliable in v2 compared to v1 You can play tarta on foot with the 12move a turn unlike the cata that needs a transport plus tarta are cheaper There is also the fact that in legion giving you a bonus move you can get a sweet +1 to the charge unlike cata

[@ShadowGhost0117]

Dark Angels Inner Circle Cenobium can do the same thing

[@CaptainPlunk]

@@ShadowGhost0117 they are already too good 😜

[@thomasclarke8553]

@@eragon12496 erm I don't think they are bro. 10 man HW squad with las are 275, 10 man Sunkiller unit is 385.

[@DirtyMardi]

@@ShadowGhost0117 how? I can’t find any rule that would allow them to run or get extra movement range. Edit. nvm, you meant the character sub type for wound spreading.

[@dagdamor1]

What absolutely kills me is that the Lernaeans were Weapon Skill 5 plus Stubborn at 40 pts (5 less) per model in 1.0 Not exactly apples to apples because of multi-wounds and the IWND, but 1.0 Lernaeans translated to 2.0 would probably be up there.

[@thelegionisnotamused8929]

Great content. Terminators are best content.

[@ashton7742]

Hey Maca! Hope you enjoyed your break from the channel

[@sweden4thewin]

Thanks for making this video man

[@Capa330]

Imperial Fists Solarite gauntlet (huscarl's weapon) is not mastercrafted anymore.

[@hobbsfamily4232]

I agree they aren't great, but the Red Butchers do pack a punch. With a standard loadout on the charge, they put out 20 ap2 strength 5 attacks (rerolls to hit) along with 6 ap2 strength 8 Armor bane (also rerolling to hit). 26 attacks out of a 5 man squad is nothing to sneeze at!

[@MkZuO12345]

But they will not do much to other elites in their points range. And will get bodied even by basic legion terminators with power fists which will cost like half the points of Red Butchers.

[@Sean-nb6sj]

Deliverers are awesome, i max out the unit to 15 and deap strike behind my opponents lines with ravens claws on them all ,then let them go to work on the meat of my enemie,forcing them to move units back to try deal with them or loose all there weaker stuff ,

[@MLaak86]

ooooo, been waiting for a detailed run down on Termies.

[@gideondaboi3894]

Counterpoint; taking Sevatar and showing up to a game with 20 Contekar Terminators is fucking hilarious. But yes they suck.

[@MrConna6]

It may already be on your list but can we get a similar video for vorax, thallax and castellax and their pros and cons vs each other AND vs marines

[@disgruntled_veteran]

I'm so excited! I've been waiting for your insight into these units. I would love to see your take on each of the Legion specific Terminators compared to their first edition version

[@benjaminbrenner745]

Thank you!

[@ruleofkoolwargaming4926]

I would Second a video on how to fix Thousand Sons! Big time! I really would like to play them, but they just seem unuseable mostly. Or should I say unfun to play and play against. The list I’ve seen do we’ll require magnus and putting flame markers don’t remember the psychic power and using zoning tactics, which works but seems unfun for the opponent and for me. If I had fixed rules, I’d ask my local gaming group and events if I may use them. Of course I’d hand out my rules to my opponent so they can see what the new rules can do and they aren’t blindsided.

[@TheDECKFISH]

I loved the video Macca!

[@MrCitizen0]

So for alpha legion what units u suggest using? Terminator wise

[@MrCitizen0]

I domt expect a reply never get one 😆

[@gosupaints5186]

Hey! I've been enjoying the videos but I was curious about the Iron Warriors Dominators. I do not see them in the HH 2.0 Rulebook or on the Legacies PDF. Is this something from the first version of HH? Thanks!

[@TheOuterCircle]

They are in the Exemplary Battles PDF's. I know, it's a pain.

[@john88benson]

The VII used to have the ability to mount Strom Shields on Tartaros and Cataphractii. Is that still in play or was it entirely replaced by the Housecarls?

[@KnightsofTitan]

Still can

[@john88benson]

@@KnightsofTitan Thanks, I was a bit concerned my gaggle of Tarts was rendered no longer legal.

[@ero9841]

I disagree on Cataphracty and tartorus debate. Not by much. I think your down playing ability run and sweep and utility that gives tarterus. Or how inflexible cat can be.

[@CojoSC]

One thing I'll give HH is the leigion specific terminators look amazing.

[@pyeac]

Other than the space wolves. Don't forget to mention that.

[@lukesimon6779]

You mention for blood angels the dawn breaker cohurt is a better option even though being a power armor unit, they are actually artificer armor

[@jellydamgood]

I will still field red buttchers because they look fabulous

[@MrCitizen0]

What did u say were the top 2 terminators? Couldn't understand the pronunciations

[@Telthar]

I'm curious, you've mentioned the Dominator Cohort a number of times in various videos. I can't seem to find rules for them for Horus Heresy 2.0. I don't see them in the Legacy pdf. Am I missing something? Or have you abandoned any hope for 2.0 so this is for 1.0?

[@pyeac]

They are in the exemplary battles PDF. Surprise, there are more PDFs.

[@Telthar]

@@pyeac oh good grief. Why can't they just have one pdf with all the units that were in the previous version but not in the published 2.0 books? *sigh* Thanks for the name. I've grabbed that pdf too.

[@rteishe]

Aw man, I'm currently building a RavenGaurd army & learning my way through the 30k rules, and was stoked to find this video because the advice out there on what terminators to use and how in RavenGuard is very sparse & contradictory...and you spent like 2 seconds on them lol. Does this mean the Cataphractii I got in my box will work and they'll just have a similar ruleset to the justerians...or did this mean I should pick up the actual justerians terminator kit? Others are saying RG should be using exclusively Tartaros terminators. Why are the rules & advice on specifically how to play Raven Gaurd terminators so shrouded (pun intended) in mystery lol

[@TheOuterCircle]

RG are in a really weird place with their terminators, you have a hard time getting them there, with no way to deep strike them outside of a transport. The rerolling 1's to wound is great on Fists/hammers, but getting the charge is so hard with them. Deliverers are great at the job, and are a 0-1 elite choice you can take instead.

[@rteishe]

@@TheOuterCircle I've been wondering about making my cataphractii into Deliverers, but I'm a bit confused about what Deliverers actually are. There's not much info about them online or anywhere in my books that I can find, and what I have found looks to me like just a copy of the regular Cataphractii terminator profile. Is there anything other than the paint job and ability to take Raven's Talons that makes a unit of Deliverers different from a unit of generic Cataphractii?

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@rteishe There's an exemplary battles ePDF on Warhammer Community, but essentially the Deliverers are the Terminator cohort whom Corax has a general disdain for as their brutal tactics learned from the Sons of Horus didn't gel well with his vision for the legion.

[@rteishe]

@TheOuterCircle thanks man, I will definitely try and find that file. I knew their lore....terran-born members of the 19th that spent more time under Horus before Corax was found, and then he resented them for it (awesome!). Just couldn't find anything about them as a unit in-game rules wise

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@rteishe Read the fluff in Book III: Extermination for the Raven Guard and you'll get some great insight into the legion!

[@Sarkhamy]

Ayone know why Deliverers are red?

[@terrysaunders7107]

There are rules for Morlock Terminator squads now. Yay, a weapon skill 5 unit would work provided your Primarch doesn't run head long in front of his army into a melee based legion.

[@andrewbakescakes9684]

So many Legions need reworks. And IF and UM need a punch in the face.

[@giancarlocoia3228]

What physic discipline would you run with sekhmet?

[@Electricalphil]

Gorgons can take a heavy weapon per three. So you can get three in a nine man squad. Nine is the perfect number.

[@MitWalker123]

sucks that red butchers are in this spot, im new to heresy got my 1.5k world eater list, and was hoping for red butchers in proteus for my 2k points... well i have proteus already so gonna go with normal cataphractii i guess :)

[@olicox6380]

Take red butchers, heresy is about narrative and fun not power gaming

[@batteredwarrior]

HH is about fluff, not efficiency. Play the Red Butchers.

[@batteredwarrior]

@@olicox6380 exactly!

[@jaegerbomb269]

Raven Guard gets screwed out of models like they get screwed in the lore.

[@DeusExMachina10001]

Order of the Broken Claw Inner Circle Knights Cenobium are just absolute bullshit. The Advex-Mors swords end up doubling the wounds on 2+ 4++ units when compared to the normal Knights. Why does GW love the Dark Angels so much....

[@UnboundUnreal]

I think red butchers would be better if ravening madmen was different. Like if the strength reduction worked on instant death also if it reduced strength of ranged attacks. Because why would an insane super soldier care about gun fire.

[@margaretwood152]

Great Video as per usual Mac ("Clear The Area.....No Traces.....Get The *_(Salt)_* Ready To Move.)"_

[@JoshLester1]

Dark angels are so broke! The love they have gotten compared to every other legion is annoying!

[@DeusExMachina10001]

The Broken Circle Knights Cenobium are purest bullshit.

[@davidpenney2392]

Gorgon terminators can now take three graviton guns in a ten man unit, change them to shredders you become nasty

[@zetho7872]

Solarite power gauntlets dont have master crafted anymore

[@TheOuterCircle]

You have fallen for GW's Trap Card! Regions have different books and there are errors from region to region, with different areas having different rules. Solarite Gauntlets are Master Crafted, S10 and AP1 in one place, Double Strength AP1 in another and Strength 10 AP2 in yet another! I have seen this first hand, and it's likely due to slightly different versions of the Rules going to the printer at different times!

[@MrCitizen0]

Fulmentarus

[@MrCitizen0]

There are no imperial fist huscarl models so just use a typical terminator and call it a huscarl? That's gay