Why Jacob Collier Disagrees with George Russell (Lydian)

[@georgerussell2947]

How could anyone disagree with me

[@leonwaves]

How dare they

[@segmentsAndCurves]

I wonder why 🤔

[@imliterallysostupid7781]

There can be only one

[@pangbeats4978]

Not good enough I make better videos

[@pangbeats4978]

@@leonwaves I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@JPSAudioWorks]

I respect Jacob's disagreement with George Russell, but I still think he's one of the best F1 drivers at the moment.

[@johnbililake9725]

And he finally got that podium too

[@etsells44]

I was looking for this

[@keefstafro]

This is EXACTLY why I clicked on this video

[@justinbayse4417]

Ikr, I was just watching F1 and saw this and I’m like, what the hell? What’s my Williams boy got to do with any of this?lmao.

[@mss11235]

Shut up

[@delikateproject]

I need “Jacob Collier disagrees with George Russell but it’s giant steps”

[@SBJBeats]

Pitch it to Simon Fransman and I'm 100% sure he won't do it

[@PolychoronProductions]

you’re insane to add each note head and notational element into after effects, just transition between musescore screenshots like the rest of us smh

[@GeorgeCollier]

i relate to this on a high level

[@banan9782]

@@GeorgeCollier the best obscure music theory channels in one place, I must be dreaming

[@segmentsAndCurves]

@@banan9782 Nope

[@5h5hz]

@@GeorgeCollier you take clips from other people's videos

[@simonanderson4858]

@@segmentsAndCurves in your humble opinion, why not?

[@AndyChamberlainMusic]

John Colplane

[@IgorsMetallicaFan]

Mentions the name "George Russell" F1 Fans: RELEASE THE KRAKEN

[@emanuelelambertini9862]

Lmfao that what I thought

[@marcelosilva6914]

Yeah i was like "What happenned between Jacob Collier and a F1 driver?" LMAO

[@mss11235]

Shut up

[@alvaro.makes.music1]

@@emanuelelambertini9862 yep that's right _that what you thought_... *SuperUltraHyperMegaMetaLydian*

[@jakeharvey6692]

“Picture a major scale. Say…. Uh… I don’t know, C Major.” I felt that

[@jefff.1654]

Then let's stack all the notes from the C major scale in 3rds on a music staff (CEGBDFA), and illustrate that sound by playing a C Lydian arpeggio of sorts, replacing the A with a B, and we're off to having some hifalutin, esoteric fun in the comments section!

[@segmentsAndCurves]

The end cracks me up. Damn George Russell.

[@njrous]

As someone who studied with Ben Schwendener who worked closely with George, the justification to move the C# to the end had to do more with: 1. The concept wasn’t meant to be cyclical, and 2: The argument that the b9 is the most dissonant interval, according to George. The G# would be next in the ladder of the 5th after C#, so he just moved that to the end to get a more accurate representation of the consonant to dissonant spectrum of intervals. The tonal order is in place to rank intervals from most consonant to dissonant, so when composing you had a clear structure of what melody notes against certain chords would be evocative of certain emotions. At the end of the day, George worked on this concept so he could have musical concepts in a concrete way, and use certain concepts like a construction worker would use a toolbox when building something, in order to avoid repetition and have all his compositions sound unique. Thought I’d put that out there, and George is unfortunately not with us to answer to Jacob. Good video regardless, thanks for sharing!!

[@leonwaves]

Thanks for that!

[@henrygodfreymusic]

Hey a fellow Ben student! I remember Ben saying that George once said to him he moved the b2 to the end "because I have ears" haha.

[@njrous]

@@henrygodfreymusic Hahahah good to encounter another student of Ben! Yeah that sounds like a George response, Ben told me when asked why they were the "Official Lydian Chromatic Scales" George responded with "Because I said so!"

[@MaxIsBackInTown]

Im very happy you wrote this comment! It's bothersome that the legacy of George Russell is being tainted by ignorance.

[@egorerofeev7762]

But what if it's #15 and not b9 at all? While it's subjective, many would agree that C# will sound more consonant compared to G# against C lydian chord. It's pretty apparent if you superimpose F# minor pentatonic in higher register. And all other extensions sound much more harsh and outside in comparison. Actually shifting pentatonic on a circle of fifths is a really good way to test this stuff. In C major you start with A minor pentatonic as most inside sound. E gives you 7th. B gives you #11, first lydian sound. F# will yield #15. C# will add #12(#5) and so on. You can get all those extensions in order from most inside to most outside sounding.

[@benjackson6115]

Really hoped I' was going to get a super niche cross reference with Jacob Collier and F1

[@BlakeLeonardMusic]

SAME BRO

[@leonwaves]

Missed it 😅

[@mss11235]

Shut Up

[@DjMinusMusic]

Can we start a discord lol

[@pangbeats4978]

@@BlakeLeonardMusic I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@bayki3805]

F1 George Russell gonna see this and make a PowerPoint

[@FruitMeate]

It's nice to see that the millennia-old tradition of struggling to create a logically coherent theory that jibes with both natural acoustics and practical musical experience is alive and well

[@The_Musical_Cartograph]

I never understood why Russel bothered accommodating Western European Harmony based on the Maj scale Like... you literally have the opportunity to answer the question "what would happen if i didn't bothered with known chord structures, and imagined the world where the base scale is Lydian" but no :l Also John Colplane

[@Roxanneredpanda]

John Colplane is the alternate universe version of Coltrane where he plays a clarinet

[@Civilizashum]

I feel pretty sure you're entirely misconstrued the work, if you've even looked at it

[@caelgoodburne9653]

john coldplay

[@Thomas-yl8lb]

xD

[@martincaz7772]

John Couldplay

[@sean8190]

This is one of the most impressive videos ive seen in a long time, great job!

[@jujcianciolo]

outstanding

[@natigrinkrug]

It's Julian :o

[@qalaphyll]

hello omg

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@pangbeats4978]

@@natigrinkrug I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@csu111]

I’ve been using George Russell’s theory for decades. It made way more sense to me than modal theory. The augmented fourth is extremely important in jazz, classical, and quite a bit of western contemporary music. George Russell was no dummy and doesn’t have to be wrong for Jacob to be right.

[@mitchelturner7793]

yea i dont think either is wrong, both concepts are correct in the proper context

[@Foxxey]

do you mean the augmented fourth?

[@csu111]

@@Foxxey Not exactly. Instead of C major think of F lydian.

[@kodowdus]

As Miles once said, "middle F"...

[@ChromaticHarp]

You mean #4 or #11 not #5 right?

[@JAM-rp6fi]

George Russel the kind of guy to try to adjust the Lydian scale to accommodate centuries of Western European classical music and not continue the chain of stacked fifths to create the most harmonious scale

[@shadxwslash44]

Are we thinking about the same George Russell? xD

[@ruledtrendy5066]

Good one 😆

[@patula3499]

He's the kind of guy that's one of a kind.

[@julianbrelsford]

Just stack perfect (umm, equal temper) fifths forever, after a while you'll get a nice chromatic scale?

[@danloschen5899]

I took George Russell's class at NEC in the mid 90s. Point 1: George Russell's music is fascinating, challenging, and UNIQUE, he has a voice. That is to me the most important part of ANY music theory: does it yield interesting and fresh music? Point 2: Jacob Collier's music is also....(see point 1). I respect that Mr. Collier feels passionately about his music, we need more people like that. I have not watched enough of JC's videos to determine if he genuinely dislikes GR's music (...which is his right of course, though I disagree), or if he merely disagrees with GR's rather dogmatic theorizing. Point 3: As much as I love GR's music, and therefore I love the theory he created which yielded that music, the idea that it therefore the best way to analyze Bach (e.g. Prelude in C from WTC book 1) is completely bonkers. It was an interesting way to learn about how he was thinking, but using Occam's razor, it is not the best analysis BY FAR. Why he felt the need to turn a perfectly good Concept (with a capital C) into a Hegelian all-encompassing explanation of all of life is beyond me. He kept talking about thinking logically without your ego interfering, and he could not see that he was the most extreme example of exactly what he was railing against. Point 4: He claimed that no one before had ever come up with a music theory based on scales such as he was discussing, then a member of the class raised his hand and said he had done his doctoral dissertation on a composer who had done just that (was it Rimsky-Korsakov? Scriabin? Someone Russian, I can't remember). Russell just looked stunned and said he was wrong, even though GR had clearly never studied the music the student was referencing. As a music historian of European classical music, GR got an F. Point 5: Just a quick shout-out to Bud Powell, and his frequent use of what JC seems to be calling "hyper Lydian" - such as the CMaj13(#11)(b9) chord in "Un Poco Loco," essentially Dmaj7 layered on top of Cmaj7.

[@djthischord8367]

wow I've never though of how Bud Powell in this context that is amazing

[@HuffleScrumblo]

george seems like a bit of a prick much love to pricks though stay confident

[@alicehb1606]

I took that class too, at NEC, late 80s, with Russell. A very arrogant man. Disdain for half the class. His vibe was so negative. And that class was boring as hell, and I did not get half of it. I was pissed I had to pay so much money for his spiral-bound “textbook”. All that said, I did write a couple cool compositions for that class, even though I really had no idea *back then* what the hell he was talking about.

[@finlayrivers9839]

Really sick video man super cool animation and editing

[@CartmanBrah]

Amazing content, great idea for a video too. Your editing skills are really great too :D

[@simonbergvall7151]

I think it all has to do with octaves. George Russel is exploring concepts within an octave (7 note scales repeating every octave) while Jacob Collier is exploring the modality and sound of stacking fifths without being limited to just the range of an octave

[@Bhuyakasha]

enraging isn't it

[@karolakkolo123]

@@Bhuyakasha enranging

[@chrismasters465]

@@karolakkolo123 underrated comment

[@nicolaslg1421]

Rage Against the Octave

[@Shadow-hw3kn]

Nice *Range instead of rage

[@Anarchips]

Dude, awesome video, super nice editing skills, thoughtful sense of explanation and pedagogy, cool humor and video rhythm... thank you!

[@ryanmiralles1199]

Howw did he edit these? What software he uses?

[@lolzlarkin3059]

About Williams f1 team?

[@platypusmusic8843]

Been real quiet since outscored by Latifi

[@Achdings]

@@platypusmusic8843 "if you have to compromise my race for Nicky, do it"

[@Achdings]

@@platypusmusic8843 F1 fans are hidden everywhere, it's good to see

[@CameronSpencer]

@@platypusmusic8843 starting P2 tomorrow though!

[@platypusmusic8843]

@@CameronSpencer Unexpected but what a lap

[@Lyuze]

When I saw the title, I genuinely thought Jacob Collier was, for some reason, disagreeing with the Formula One driver George Russel. That was a little weird for a few moments.

[@mss11235]

Shut up

[@benjaminnguyen590]

I learn, I laugh, and then I like the video. -Julius Caesar I love your humor, man! Awesome Vid!

[@aloysiuskurnia7643]

Knowing the channel, the order should be I like, I learn and I laugh

[@benjiusofficial]

"Live. Laugh. Love." - Julius Caesar

[@pabloemiliorui2281]

Mister Waves I aspire to, as you, have such a deep understanding of such meticulous concepts that I can explain them so lightly and get my point across

[@williammurray7717]

Thank you so much! That really cleared things up for me. I followed the book pretty well up to the justification and derivation of the altered scales. Awesome vid!

[@whaleupNbeamammal]

Can we have a part 2 please. I am seeing this channel for the first time. It’s great

[@RMRizalMusic]

Never knew that George Russell was Leclerc's music teacher. The more you know.

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@gavinleepermusic]

Yoooo dude this is awesome! Cool to understand how Jacob and George fit together...or don't fit together!

[@prodginm]

so underrated wtf. i thought his vid would have 1 mil view by now hopefully the algorithm will see your quality and work!

[@foll789]

This video is incredible

[@IDremOI]

Next level editing, great script, infunnyformative, great video! Got my subscription!

[@jonasaras]

Lyle “Spud” Murphy’s Equal Interval System resolved these problems using the overtone series as the basis of organization, and NOT the fifth and its related cycle. He proved mathematically that the fifth does not have any prominence over the other intervals. The end result is a completely original theory that uses a single set of terms that can encompass previous theories, but it’s not bound by them.

[@aaronmetz8707]

I remember getting very excited about EIS until I realized that Spud basically turned his entire theory into something only accessible for those willing to fork out major sums of money to learn it. I even did an interview with a teacher. It seems really interesting though and I wish he would have just shared his findings in the form of easily accessible texts that you could buy for a fair price rather than being forced to take costly lessons in order to learn it. I understand that it's complex but I feel like keeping everything under lock and key is just a recipe for the knowledge gradually being lost over time.

[@tropicvibe]

@@aaronmetz8707 I imagine at some point someone will record their sessions and anonymously put it in writing for the masses. Although he has the right to do as he pleases, they're his theories but after he's gone then what? Or will he be passing on the torch to a student or family member?

[@KarlBonner1982]

Russell's order of sharps actually makes sense if you look at the scales brighter than Lydian. First you augment the 5th, then the 2nd, then the 6th and finally the 3rd. Given that Lydian is essentially Locrian with a flattened root (Locrian b1), going in this order gives you Phrygian b1, Aeolian b1, Dorian b1 and finally Mixolydian b1.

[@noone-ld7pt]

I don't even know why but the way you paused between George and Russell just sent me every single time. Thanks I really needed a good laugh! Also interesting music stuff! Way above my head, but very interesting!

[@kundinga]

you are the best channel out there period

[@dj9299]

Coming from George Russel's front row at Spa today, this video had me mega confused

[@oliverfoote6505]

Best ending to a youtube video I've seen in awhile

[@BruceRichardsonMusic]

So many people don't even know who George Russell is. That page at the end actually makes a lot of sense, and he spends time explaining what he means by all of it. Still got my Lydian Chromatic Concept book from music school. But I concur that Russell was primarily interested in what goes on within the octave. Likewise with the rest of the alt-ish permutations. Ultimately, it's just about tools for improvisation.

[@henrygodfreymusic]

I actually find that common criticism about the Lydian Chromatic concept being confined to one octave odd, since a Lydian Chromatic scale contains all 12 notes of equal temperament. Maybe this comes more from the teacher I learned the concept from (who himself was a student/assistant to Russell), but I see all those "alterations" more as the upper extensions of one chord/scale. There's no avoid notes! Just more and less dissonant notes relative to the tonic.

[@kaytracy173]

The book is actually much deeper than “how to create music.” It’s about how music (and non-performing art) is the fundamental language of the cosmos. He (this the book) was influenced to a large degree by Gurdjief’s 4th Way to understand Consciousness. I found that out after reading George’s biography (not well written btw) & then reading the things George read for his inspiration & lessons w/Andy Wasserman. Jacob has gone on to create his own music theory & bravo for that btw. Love his talks about theory. But he has yet to explain Unity & it’s role in the Universe & consciousness.

[@dalepiwek]

Killer man your explanation on the subject is the first that's really given me something to work with 🤘

[@cadenza23]

I think George Russell should stick to racing

[@crouton3455]

I was so confused when i saw the title

[@joaofarias6473]

He did get some points in a Williams car so I reckon nothing is completely out of his grasp. Maybe being a genius music theorist is not that far off for him haha

[@rillloudmother]

this george russel had bill evans and art farmer playing on his albums, i think he did ok.

[@Afghamistam]

Tired of hearing Jacob Collier complaining about his tires all the time!

[@marcelosilva6914]

"GEOOOOOOORGE" - Albon, Alex

[@kevin_maxwell_smith]

THANK YOU for making an actually good video on the LCC, nobody on YT is talking about it or George Russell with this specific of a lens

[@JimMonsanto]

On the one hand, I like the idea of F Lydian being the most natural and fundamental scale of all scales, from which all scales are thus derived. That said, I part from Russel here. And with Western Music Theory in terms of what modes are what. F Lydian is the basis of all. The Second mode is F Ionian, which flattens the 4 (B). The Third mode is F Mixolydian, which flattens the 4 and the 7 (E). The Fourth mode is Dorian, which flattens the 4 , the 7 , and the 3 (A). The Fifth mode is Aeolian, which flattens the 4, the 7, the 3, and the 6 (D). The Sixth mode is Phrygian, which flattens the 4, the 7, the 3, the 6, and the 2 (G). Finally, the Seventh mode is Locrian, which flattens the 4, the 7, the 3, the 6, the 2, and the 5 (C). The parallel modes, are thus, C Ionian, G-Mixolydian, D-Dorian, A-Aeolian, E-Phrygian, and B-Locrian. This model gets rid of WMT's idea that Lydian is Ionian with a #4, whilst all the rest of the modes involve flattening all the subsequent modes. No, Lydian isn't Ionian with a #4, Ionian is Lydian with a b4. Next, it gets rid of the pesky problem of putting the 4th degree of the scale on the opposite side of the Tonic as the rest of the degrees on the basic circle of fifths. It shows why you need 6 flats, rather than 6 sharps. But why might we need 6 sharps? Well, if we go around the circle of 5ths, we start with F-lydian (0), C-Lydian (1 #), G Lydian (2 #s) D Lydian (3 #s), A Lydian (4 #s), E Lydian (5 #s) and B Lydian (6 #s). "But we write mostly in Major or Minor!" Yes, and you just defeated your own argument with your own argument. Most Western music is written using Ionian or Aeolian. Much of the stereotypical "Arabian" sound is Phrygian Dominant. So what? This isn't a problem. Just because we don't use the most naturally fundamental scale, F-Lydian, for very much music at all, doesn't mean it's not the most natural and fundamental scale. The Fundamental note on a piano, A440 isn't nicely at the beginning of the series of white-and-black keys the way C is. But no one has a problem with that. the First key is C, not A, thus making A the 6th key of any set of 12 keys. Guess what? We can simply set 3 blacks as the start, and what's at the beginning of those three black keys? That's right! F. Rather than Middle C, we should be talking about Middle F.

[@wanderlngdays]

“Most western music is written using Ionian or Aeolian”. That’s not right: first of all, we have many many centuries of music before the tonal system (the transition from the modal systems and the 8 psalm tones through the church keys to the tonal system occurred mainly between the end of the 16th century and the 17th century) and a lot of music after the disintegration of the tonal system. Secondly, tonal music is not written using Ionian or Aeolian, but major and minor keys. You can argue that Ionian and major is more or less the same (I would disagree with this), but that’s not so with Aeolian and minor

[@aloysiuskurnia7643]

These high quality, manually redrawn vector emojis are the best thing ever lol

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@madorca8162]

This is the best and most concise explanation of Russell's theory I've seen so far. Thanks!

[@benjiusofficial]

Other than, ya know, the book.

[@modeswitching]

Nerdy video deserves a nerdy comment, I’m so sorry. But…it always seemed to me that what comes after C Lydian should be C# Locrian. If the stack of fifths tells you which notes to raise to progressively make the scale brighter/darker, then raising the C in a C lydian gives you C# locrian, followed by G# giving you C# phrygian, then C# aeolian, dorian, mixolydian, ionian, etc. There’s a yin and yang elegance to this, in that the brightest mode in one key wraps around to become the darkest mode in the key a semitone higher. But Jacob is saying, why do you have to change keys or modes, just add the them together to make one big polytonal scale. So then Cmaj13#11#15 is just a Dmaj7/Cmaj7 polychord (or G lyd/C lyd or what have you). George Russell is saying… well tbh I could never figure out what the flip GR is saying.

[@vic4709]

Practically George and Jacob are saying the same but in a different way. The choice or the perspective is up to us.

[@ewallt]

This is how I would think of this too. You can stack the fifths, and then reorder them, forming scales or chords as desired. I think these are variations of similar ideas, but how you wrote it out is how I would naturally think of it, although GR’s idea leads to some pretty cool scales in a different way. For example, Lydian Augmented and Lydian Dominant are very well known scales, but the way I would think of it would be stacking fifths to make a major scale, and then flatting the third from the root.

[@ReedGratz]

George Russell's ideas were totally inclusive. Not exclusive. Read his 2nd book. Tonal gravity is about 'horizontal', teleological, resolving music represented by the major/minor tonal system that has hundreds of years of use in Western music. 'Vertical' or blending music is part of the Lydian (also Dorian and Phrygian modes) mode/scale. It opens the door to music that does not necessarily have to resolve to a tonic. These two ideas, horizontal and vertical, can work together in music, opening up many possibilities for a composer. LCC is a door opening to possibilities. "Disagreeing" only closes creative possibilities. It is a useful way of thinking about music - inclusive, open, and full of potential. For a little fun about George and some of my experiences with him: kzbin.info/www/bejne/imPaqouCaJuDerMsi=8fnEbX6OZa6khALd By the way, I'm a big fan of Jacob Collier!

[@CharlesHarrisonMusicTuition]

Excellent explanation of the concept. Thanks!

[@fadhlysukawidjaja174]

Bro this is going over my head for sure

[@benwittman3431]

I realize that this post is from a year ago, but for some comic reason KZbin has decided to put this video in my feed. I say cosmic because I studied with George Russel at New england Conservatory in the 80's and played drums in both his student and professional ensembles. What is problematic with this post, and I think Ben Schwendener would agree (he was a classmate at NEC) is context. What's missing is that George Russel was an incredibly important composer in the NYC jazz scene in the 1950's and 60's, recorded seminal albums, was a gifted pianist and was deeply imbedded with the preeminent artists from the time, Coltrane etc. It's easy to cherry pick out of context some of George's theory and stage a hypothetical argument with a young contemporary artist like Jacob Collier. Btw, LOVE Jacob Collier. This is in no way meant to shed negative light on this true genius. But, Mr, Waves is positing an analytical argument that does not take into account the full impact of George Russel's contribution to jazz history. i'm sure one could create a similar argument between Duke Ellington and Snarky Puppy. The point is, CONTEXT. Please know, or acknowledge the full extent of what you're writing about. It does a disservice to viewers to merely single out a small slice of a composer's history for the sake of using the name Jacob Collier and some KZbin views.

[@Gnurklesquimp]

This always reminds me of my very first times playing around with chords, alternating major with minor 3rds seemed like the most ''basic'' pattern to me, and to my surprise, our basic major scale didn't agree.

[@KevinElamMusic]

I'm curious if someone can authoritatively answer this question: If one uses the perfect harmonic fifth (pitch ratio 1.5) and stacks in fifths from a given C all the way up to the C#, is the resulting interval between that high "C#" and the C next to it (four octaves above the initial C) in any way more pleasant than an equal tempered minor second? I know that this new interval will be considerably wider than the modern garden variety half step. I ask because it seems to me that if one stacks with harmonic fifths, one wouldn't expect to find a particular "cutoff point" where the notes start to sound considerably more dissonant (e.g. after the F#). Rather, I would expect that each new note added would sound gradually more dissonant than the last, in a smooth and continuous way, rather than with a stark change after a particular pitch.

[@robbiearroyo2292]

There's a really nice George Russell album, Jazz in the Space Age. Great record, highly recommended. The Lydiot, Waltz from Outer Space... good songs, and to me much more compelling than Mr. Collier's music.

[@PolychoronProductions]

epic video!

[@segmentsAndCurves]

epic

[@scrumbfunk]

This was absolutely brilliant! Thoroughly entertaining, and the ending was comedy perfection. Quite literally made me say "holy sh%#" out loud after a second or two lol. Look forward to digging into more of your videos!

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@martincaz7772]

I was reading the comments just to see if I had been the only one XD

[@theophilos0910]

Using the ‘white keys’ only on a modern piano preferably tun’d to A=432 Hz beginning from F to F (F, G, A, B, C, D, E) to establish the interval-parametres of the so-call’d Lydian mode which can be transpos’d by retaining the same intervals in ev’ry key

[@DJazium]

Woah. What a crazy super well done video.

[@joaquinplacides2]

Mercedes announces George Russell alongside teammate Jacob Collier for 2022

[@kavalkid1]

YES! This is what I want to see! I am working with 4ths alone. Any tertial chords are just the result of compressing the chords, rather than extending them.

[@Nico-Cann]

“Not here”, and the video acts as the movement of the head. Just perfect.

[@idnemgk]

Thank you for posting this! May I ask, where is the rest of your video? I'm thinking there was some technical glitch in posting, and that you didn't intend for video that end at 8:02 with the words, "tell me why this is not a" accompanying a visual of a giggling John Coltrane airplane. ??

[@BunzJackson]

I love your videos. Super entertaining and I even almost feel like I get what you're talking about.

[@AlvaroALorite]

Goddamn that animation, what softwarw did you use to make it?

[@Eden_Salazar]

it cut hard at the end for a french listener who's helped by the image

[@Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay]

Even if the content makes your eyes glaze over a bit, you gotta admire the editing :)

[@JohnHorneGuitar]

As for the alternating major and minor 3rds, guitarist Larry Carlton talks about this on his instructional video from 1986.

[@petermcmurray2807]

This is the best explanation I have come across. Agree or disagree with the theory it lead to some great work from Miles Davis and John Coltrane.

[@zagugelblatz]

The Lydian bII vertical degree is set aside because it has special properties, including the ability to negate the underlying, active Lydian tonal field and create a cadence (e.g., if you consider C Major as F-Lydian-perpetually-resolving-into-C-Lydian, playing an F# can cancel F Lydian and move the tonality fully into the C Lydian tonal field, like how a CMaj#11 traditionally gives the final resolution at the end of a jazz piece). Therefore the Lydian bII must be carefully handled to avoid unintended tonal field switches in the domain of Horizontal Tonal Gravity (Vertical TG and Horizontal TG operate simultaneously, but are different domains...Vertical operates between notes inside Lydian tonal fields as descending 5ths...Horizontal operates between Lydian tonal fields and this form of tonal gravity moves around the circle by 4ths...). Lydian bII can still be used vertically to color a chord or a vertical melody, but it must be handled carefully. From another angle, again looking at C Major as F-Lydian-resolving-into-C-Lydian, try playing G7 (F Lydian II) cadencing into CM7 (C Lydian I) several times, and then try changing G7 into GM7 (F to F#) and check out how that one note difference completely upends the cadence and screws with your sense of location and movement within the overall tonality. Similarly, if you are working with traditional modes, say C Mixolydian or C Dorian, and you want to chromatically enhance without spoiling the overall feel of the mode... If C Mixolydian is considered as Bb Lydian/C, then which note would be most potentially disruptive to the Bb Lydian tonal field and the overall Mixolydian feel? The note B natural, the Lydian bII of Bb Lydian. If C Dorian is considered as Eb Lydian/C, which note would be most potentially disruptive to the Dorian minor feel? E natural (Lydian bII of Eb Lydian) would be most likely to negate Eb Lydian and flip the whole polarity of the key from Minor to Major. Part of the game is to know where you are and which Lydian tonal field is active in a piece of music at any given moment as the music unfolds in time, and then to chromatically enhance (or not) accordingly, depending on your artistic judgment. Or if you decide you want to go crazy and use Lydian bII notes all over the place because you like how it sounds and feels, and it works for you artistically, you can do that, too, but with greater understanding and control...

[@mountainman8775]

Brilliant research thanks so much This is such an important subject within music theory Edit: I don’t get it at the end there, do you have a beef with Coltrane? You wouldn’t be the first You’ve animated the scales really well, it’s a pleasure to watch

[@angeloantic810]

John Colplane, bro

[@mountainman8775]

@@angeloantic810 doh!

[@DocBree13]

@@angeloantic810 😂

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@richardbloemenkamp8532]

@@angeloantic810 It probably was, but the editor had seen too many spirits in St. Louis and therefore he changed it.

[@EthanMckennaMusic]

Tbh I've been trying to get into the Lydian chromatic stuff for years but it seems like a weird and flawed system. I organize all of those other Lydian scales as modes of their parent scale like Harmonic minor (Lydian #9) or Melodic minor (Lydian Augmented, Lydian dominant) etc. Jacobs "Super lydian" is a much less restricted system that basically just connects the circle of 5ths ascending. I also call that idea "super extended harmony"

[@djthischord8367]

Less restricted maybe, but it is restrictions and conventions that give rise to styles of music. Collier's music and ideas are awe-inspiring and informative but also in my experience at least can be extremely difficult to navigate independently. Russell's theories are maybe more accessible because of their restriction, its thorough definitions and justifications make it more of a coherent system, with a distinct musical result. Russell's work's connection to western harmony also gave it the accessibility to actually be used by people in whatever music they were making, which is rare for such a grand idea in the field of music theory.

[@crudough]

What if the real major scale is found within?

[@leonwaves]

Deep 😔

[@krystiangorczyca77]

Way before it was names the superlydian, Herbie used it in intro to his Tell me a bedtime story, with melody using the #15 of Gmaj

[@diegorivera9449]

Missing the end of the video, really interesting.

[@joaofarias6473]

Why is it not a train?

[@joaofarias6473]

@Marshall Thompson Haha makes sense

[@toronado455]

@Marshall Thompson John Colplane LOL

[@elkeism]

@@joaofarias6473 not just a train but an "A" (last word) train

[@DocBree13]

@@elkeism 💯

[@waynepayne864]

Bro ive been trying to digest georges theory for years, the way u describe it in the first few mins is a huge breakthru

[@seanfried5583]

Holy moly, I am a full time musician and could not keep up with that at all. Phew, shows how much I don’t know.

[@cameronhughes9707]

Tonic gravity comes from Schoenberg's theory of harmony. Or at least the analogy of gravity. Though in his theory Schoenberg claims that the fith above whatever note you choose exerts a gravity up on the lower note. Maybe a balance between Russell and Collier?

[@reivax5742]

Maybe I misunderstood the introduction to the book, but it seems to me that the fundamental concept behind the LC had to do less with the desire to stack fifths and avoid a tritone, and more to do with the notion that lydian is a more natural mode than is ionian. If I remember correctly, according to the book this is because in the overtone series, the pitch that would be the fourth degree of a scale first appears as the 11th harmonic in the series, as a very out of tune flat fifth (a flat flat fifth, if you will 🙄) ... (as described here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) ) or as a very sharp fourth degree, which IMHO makes more sense here, since overtones 3, 6, and 12 are the 5th degree and overtones 5 and 10 are the 3 degree, hence we are dealing with the 4th degree of the scale here. In the example found in the link with a C as fundamental, in other words, I would've labeled that 11th harmonic an F#, not a Gb, as we are dealing with the pitch between the E and the G, both of which we already have. As the example describes, the Gb (F#) of the 11th harmonic is 49 cents under a properly tuned F# (Gb). The second example on that same page (notation by Ben Johnson) describes that same 11th harmonic as an out of tune F (too sharp), but it's more of an out of tune F# (too flat): Considering that this pitch is 49 cents away from F# (Gb) it means it is 51 cents away from the F natural, and therefore, by 1 cent (!) the natural (in the sense of "organic") fourth scale degree according to the overtone series is closer to an F# that it is to F. It's a tough call if one is establishing the scale for posterity, but by one cent, it's an F#!

[@kiri101]

TRAIN!

[@evanmeaux1292]

Create a video on Gene Puerling. I have yet to see a single video analyzing his fantastic work in-depth on KZbin.

[@mharbaugh]

YES!!

[@evanmeaux1292]

@@mharbaugh Haha this guy knows what’s up ^^^

[@mharbaugh]

@@evanmeaux1292 My Reddit handle is Hilomh! 😂

[@narkxis5691]

Being a fan of both, I can see where the disagreement would emerge. Jacob would probably try to tackle all corners in a half sharp fashion, while Russel would focus more on apexing... ... ... I’ll see myself out.

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@lydiafromsemaphora]

this conversation makes me feel important

[@Fakery]

Now will you please tell us what Lydian Chromatic Supra Vertical Tonal Gravity is?

[@leonwaves]

Maybe in the future 🧐

[@johnchapman5037]

One might continue the stacking of "5ths" through the rest of the chromatic scale to extensions beyond the 13th to include C# (#15), eb (b17), G# (#21) and Bb (b23). I wouldn't say that there is an "upward gravity" to this construction, nor does it help to understand the modes, but it adds a new world of color to one's chordal palette. The process could be applied to all chord types.

[@ScrotumTingle]

The coletrane coal train is too easy of a joke for someone who rethinks harmony. Coletrane biplane is way funnier

[@gammafoxlore2981]

But it's a high-wing monoplane.

[@fictionmusictv]

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on the chain of fifths. Russell wasn't interested in stacking fifths so much as he was proving that lydian was a better candidate for a tonic function scale than an ionian and he used the overtone series as a way to justify it (much like HIS influence Hindemith did in justifying the chromatic scale and for finding acoustic roots of intervals). He didn't shy away from C#, he just didn't need it to prove the tonal gravity of a lydian sound. In fact why stop at C#? He could have gone on stacking 5ths until he created a chromatic scale. He chose instead to create THAT with the super-imposition of parallel modes with sharpened 4ths (a chromatic poly-modalism). Russell was a jazz guy who was concerned about chord scale relationships and finding more outside scales based around a sharpened 11th

[@Gk2003m]

4:07: Russell is correct on this point. Any time you play a note and then another note a perfect fifth above that first note, the second note functions as a support component of the first. Specifically due to its existence as the second harmonic of that first note. Virtually everyone on the planet hears it in that fashion. Interestingly, most folks also hear a perfect fourth NOT as a fourth, but instead as an inverted fifth. That’s how strong is the pull of that harmonic relationship.

[@DjMinusMusic]

I thought this wouldn't be for a niche group of people like myself that love modern jazz and F1, but after checking the comments, I see I've found my home.

[@oceansmusicinhkukandgerman7009]

7:45 Can you C now Best pun ever

[@leonwaves]

It wasn't intended and didn't realize until editing! I was wondering who'd catch it

[@Farvadude]

regarding your complaints with the LCC you described in the latter half of the video, my intuition tells me that there are important components of classical western harmony that are missing from the LCC as it currently exists, but i believe that it's plausible there's some pattern that explains that issue after you hit the sharped tonic by stacking up 7 fifths on top of each other--for example, this pattern disappears in the major scale because the major scale was derived from the 1st and 2nd harmonic of the harmonic series, and the fifth is kind of like an inversion of the perfect 5th. maybe in our lifetimes someone will be able to figure out that critical gap in the LCC as it currently exists and it will help the LCC get taken more seriously and become more useful in more situations. i do think it's very useful to understand the concepts but only after you already understand classical western harmony--without that, it's hard to really understand what the Lydian scale even is in the first place. i also think LCC can absolutely be fit into the theory behind the major scale and its 7 modes' power more specifically, and all it would take is for someone famous to figure out the math behind that one ugly transition after you reach the original sharped tonic and make better sense of the patterns we're observing in nature.

[@nezkeys79]

Perfect 5ths stacked on top of each other until the reach the same note sounds so good

[@pangbeats4978]

I make better music than this overrated Jacob who just shows off his sub par musishian skills and gets free Grammy I don't get why he's more famous that whatever any normal musician does Well anyway I think I just proved my point and my videos further backs it kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipLMip-VlJWJp6c

[@barryblack5562]

Good on him. We blindly accept these things, some even take a while to bare. As you move through music your ear develops and what you like changes. And we come up with all sorts of things that don't fit into the boundaries we once were so careful not to cross.

[@EricPeelMusic]

Stunning animation!

[@di-.-ib]

I am a master music theorist myself ... I can tell you this conversation is akin to semantics. You are simply layering colors and labeling them, then fighting over the labels by giving your own creed or power to a specific note or group of notes. Modes are modes, who cares what they are called or what is in them so long as we hear and feel the coloration of sound. Truth is each note is just a frequency vibration, and when mixed with other vibrations, it makes a coloration you either like or dislike, use or don't use. The rest is people wanting to have their name attached to the label. Also, this Jacob cat though super talented and great, didn't invent any of this. All been done.

[@MichelleHell]

I'm not a master theorist, but I was going to leave a comment similar to this. After struggling for a few decades, I've come to accept that the reason for a lot of compositional decisions is because it just sounded good, or was what they were going for. When you add timbre, dynamics and tempo, you realize you can make dark scales sound light and light scales sound dark. So then what's the point of all this crap? Music isn't a mathematical formula, there are many ways of achieving a desired impact, and all the rules are waiting to be broken. You venture into music theory, realize it's kinda bs, and step back out of it and into the creative process. If you treat music like a formula, it becomes a fractal of infinite substitutions and cycles. All pieces of music are one subset of the infinite fractal containing all possibilities. If music is a formula that you can grasp, you create everything without ever doing creation.

[@marcusojito4438]

Just found your channel, great stuff

[@maxhdz11]

Production quality is *chef's kiss*. Could you do a video on STAY by Justin Beiber/Kid LAROI but transpose the song into different wacky Lydian scales? Or an interpretation of how Jacob Collier would cover a pop song like this?

[@pputnam100]

I can't believe I listened to the whole video even though I can't read a note of music and know nothing of music theory. I just wanted to see if my ears liked the scales and notes. And what do you know, I really liked the lydian scale notes, they're beautiful

[@donaldaxel]

At 00:25 it is not *major* thirds, at that point my inner listener died, it is just "arranged in thirds".

[@JiveDadson]

Decades ago, I studied that book. Try as I might, I could not figure out what it was good for. How would understanding it change my musical life? The book reminded me of how my schizophrenic cousin Tommy analyzed the dimensions of ancient pyramids.

[@uglyhands_pianist-9983]

Wow!! Thank You!!