Let's Be Clear on the Difference Between Angels and Demons | Jonathan Pageau

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

I've been watching so many Symbolic World videos that I've started speaking with Jonathan Pageau's accent.

[@confectionarysound]

Hahah I do the same thing when I try to explain things in his terms

[@the300XM8]

Keep doing the good work Father. I used to study philosophy, and 90% students where atheists. And I bet they would be interested in Scripture if priests talked like JP, instead of dumbing it down to child-like level

[@pu3he]

Check out Fr. Marko Ivan Rupnik SJ. There are few english resources on him, though.

[@kerstinquiring5553]

I do the same. But I speak Spanish. So I speak Spanish with JP’s accent.

[@olgakarpushina492]

It's the manner, not the accent, you mean right? He does not have an actual "accent", just a unique manner of delivering info.

[@Loreman72]

In the ancient Semitic world, the Queen of a country was the King's mother. The King had many wives, but his mother had an authority all her own. And if you wanted unique leverage with the king, you had to try and influence his mother. Perfect match with the Catholic / Orthodox concept of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

[@greggeverman5578]

Fantastic point.

[@emy_2510]

This sounds more like ancient Egypt specifically

[@marvinlessknown3702]

thats the standard false argument of orthodoxy re QoH. so because solomon ignored hia mother proves mothers have influence on the king? nay.

[@no-one-787]

@@emy_2510 that's also Semitic. Egyptians aren't ancient aliens, dude. They were/are a human culture among all the rest, they aren't somehow more uniquely pagan or evil just because they played an antagonistic role in the Bible. What do you think Semitic means?

[@tracyluke2069]

As a Catholic, I know her under this and many titles. One very special to me is Refuge of Sinners. She is humble and obedient to the Will of God. Too afraid to approach Our Father in prayer, I wasn't afraid to go to our Mother. She never keeps our prayers/ love/ devotion for herself. She points us to Our Lord, and makes him bigger in our lives ( Luke 1:46-55 NKJ). She participates in our salvation in a particular way and is an excellent example of how to love and serve God. The economy of our salvation and the Glory of Our Father are sublime beyond comprehension. Love your videos and the comments ( much of the time it's the deep end of the pool for me and I get headache trying to keep up with the level of intellect on all sides, but I love it and thankful, too)

[@eldermillennial8330]

Scott Hahn’s breakdown is very excellent and Orthodox whenever he doesn’t go into Vatican 1’s innovations.

[@tracyluke2069]

Thankyou. I have a few of his books. I need to revisit them.

[@33-vertebrae]

What phrasing do you use to pray to Mary? I'm often afraid I'm doing it wrong in a way that is idolatry.

[@tracyluke2069]

I think the Rosary might be a good option for you. It's a compendium of the Gospels and the language is Biblically based. Also, I think intent is always important. The focus is always ultimately about right relationship with God. Hope this helps.

[@Airblade90]

The only intermediary to God is through Jesus Christ. Pray through Jesus. There is no power in praying to Mary. God wants a person relationship with you! God knows you personally, do not be afraid!

[@DennisCNolasco]

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. Make God rebuke him we humbly pray; And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the Power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits, who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls.

[@kidus_1010]

What’s the name of this prayer?

[@theadumitriu8664]

Jesus taught us how to pray, directly to the Father. Angels answer to the Father.

[@DennisCNolasco]

@@kidus_1010 Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel.

[@larrybedouin2921]

@@DennisCNolasco Jesus is Michael. For THE [definite article] Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE voice of THE archangel, and with the trump of God: and 👉the dead in Christ shall rise first.

[@algomez8563]

@@larrybedouin2921 No Jesus is not an angel. No angel has called God Father. Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? Jehova's witness? The Archangel is a herald, heralds always anounced the king with shout and trumpeth. Paul in Thessalonians never says the voice belongs to Jesus.

[@orfious]

After listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast this became so much easier to comprehend

[@samswagga8526]

Which episode was it?

[@iliya3110]

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope! To Thee, do we cry, poor banished children of Eve!

[@spyroninja]

To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

[@iliya3110]

@@spyroninja Turn then most gracious Advocate, Thine eyes of mercy towards us.

[@andrewhatfield7901]

O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary, Pray for us o Holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ

[@Elena_PS91]

Nooo!!! Hail Jesus Christ alone...The Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit.... Tge queen of heaven is rwfefed to Ishtar, Ashera, and Diana... the same deity that changes her name...same spirit...same Cheribum that rebelled...Read Ezikiel...amd watch Michael Hizer

[@iliya3110]

@@Elena_PS91guess you should tell that to St Gabriel the Archangel when he literally greets Mary with “Hail!”. No, those Egyptian demon gods were just LARPing as something like the Mother of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

[@nektulosnewbie]

The examples to look to are Tolkien's Valar and Maiar, how they operate and who form the ranks of the Enemy after their rebellion. Many look on them as Tolkien trying to reconcile a pagan outlook with a monotheistic Christian one, but they completely miss the point.

[@idfk_vfx]

Nice connection!

[@cliffordduhh45]

Spot on. I used to think religious folk were all on the same page, just referring to the same gods/principalities by different names. This clip helps me see the differentiation or partial truths in paganism structure, etc.

[@nektulosnewbie]

@@idfk_vfx it's not a connection. Tolkien did it with this specifically in mind. He also was rather concerned with the idea of creation and how only God can create. Both LotR and the Silmarillion deal with it in different ways. He found all things made by everyone else as sub-creations requiring what He provided to craft what we make. He went so far as to consider himself sub-creator of his own work for this reason.

[@idfk_vfx]

@@nektulosnewbie cool, I didn't know it was intentional.

[@eldermillennial8330]

@@nektulosnewbie One of Sauron’s key initial motivations to Join Morgoth was out of anger at not being allowed to make out of nothing.

[@nickyalexa7744]

Love the comparison between Saint Michael and Mars. That illustration really drove the point home for me

[@franktoyou]

Thanks for this explanation. I find it note worthy that you said at the end that you are "going further in explaining this stuff to you guys than i ever have" .This is much apreciated. St Thomas explains how man is unable to know angels directly because they are pure spirit, and the way man recieves knowledg is through the senses. Although mans ability to comprehend principles and even come to the knowledg of the existance of God through the use of reason gives us hope of coming to a greater knowledg of the angels and the role they play in mans life on earth. I'm very interested in anything more you have to say about this subject.

[@eddyandreas2393]

Question : how do I offer up things to God? Praying? Abandoning wordily possessions?

[@papercut7141]

Matthew 25:37-40 RSV Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? [39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' [40] And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Love God, love your neighbor. You don't need to offer "things" to God, he wants you. A "living sacrifice" (Romans 12). If things get in the way of that (they will), then you give them up. If you find yourself without any vision of where you need to go, or otherwise distracted, then you pray These are things very easy to say and impossible to perform. Watch yourself closely for times you are not acting in love, or when you are doing things that serve no ends outside your own pleasures/passions. You will immediately find things to work on that way. God bless

[@PaulFrank49]

@@papercut7141 Beautifully said.

[@eldermillennial8330]

@@papercut7141 Impossible to preform BY OURSELVES. But not with God’s help.

[@greggeverman5578]

Congrats on 10,000 subs on this channel, Jonathan!

[@idfk_vfx]

Lucifer wants to be like God, so him and his followers will most likely choose forms that mostly resemble God's design.

[@experiencemystique4982]

That's one of the passage I'm not sure if I understood.."o Lucifer Star of the morning" Venus...is Venus...I usually see it every morning...so? It's the real interpretation?

[@idfk_vfx]

@@experiencemystique4982 Lucifer is one of the names of the chief fallen angel, Satan, the devil. It means light bringer and I assume describes his condition before he fell(the devil was one of, if not the best angel in heaven before he rebelled). Not informed enough about any connections with the planet Venus. It's probably a comparison(Venus being the second brightest celestial object at night, other than the moon, kinda shows how the angel Lucifer was really high level)

[@experiencemystique4982]

@@idfk_vfx Satan or Lucifer? I thought we fights against principalities, so, thinking asking directly to God, men power and greed had only mixed up for theirs convenience

[@experiencemystique4982]

My dear friend, I'm not saying no or yes. I'm only saying those who transcribed this could have personal motifs to translate like this, cause we're the same whom push Jesus brother, crucified Pierre head down, tried to blackmailed woman on the old Testament to have sex with, sold "pardons to not go to hell" on the middle age. The same who burn people alive and made wars in the name of God...so... I'll preferred to ask God personally

[@BenVanCamp]

@@experiencemystique4982 just Wikipedia the word “Lucifer”, it will describe the connections to the planet Venus

[@WarInHeaven]

So we have the capability of reminding the higher gods what they are originally for, and who they are supposed to be aligned with. That’s the opportunity

[@larrybedouin2921]

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." {Luke 11:27-28}

[@jeffreyreedy8575]

Great explanation! Simple, yet complex!

[@iankaiser2401]

This was such an important video. As a Catholic with Lutheran parents and friends, having this distinction between venerating and honoring a person, place, or culture; just like the Queen of Heaven, points to the highest which is Jesus Christ. There’s always a “through line” from one pattern to another; using John Vervake’s terminology.

[@grailcountry]

Interesting timing in the algo feeding me this one as I am rethinking my political theology of late precisely because when scrutinizing it I found it was subtlety dualistic. I have taken a four week and an eight week course on Maximus over the past few months. Probably the reason.

[@eaglecross7359]

Protestants cannot grasp this concepts and resort to call them blasphemous since the blasphemous man called Luther devoided Christianity of sacred tradition as he, for his own admission, engaged in theological dispute with the Devil

[@larrybedouin2921]

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.👈 {Jeremiah 7:18}

[@doulos44]

A lot of what you're saying here sounds like Michael Heiser, if you guys could do a talk that would be one amazing interview!

[@TranquilityBand]

I feel this so much thank you for the beautiful linguistic of it all. ♥️

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

On Calvary then is Mary offering her son up as the first priest of Christianity?

[@UncreatedWay]

Can we understand Angels and Demons as the archetypes?

[@so_she_said]

EXCELLENT explanation, thank you!

[@maxwellhouse1362]

Oui, ça aide beaucoup tes explications!

[@CC-zc6cv]

st michael what a glorious inspiration

[@PetrusSolus]

Discussions about angelology are always problematic, since many traditions have their own views, and then even within each tradition there are differences or variations in conceptualisation and interpretation. However, one of the mainstays seems to be the view that angels do not have any free will, since they are creations of God for performing His will. In fact, each of the nine hierarchies (arrived at by Pseudo-Dionysius) has it own level of will-operation and responsibilities. In which case, how does it make sense that there could be any angels that would exercise their “own will” to dissent and turn from God? Also, since Paul warns about “powers and principalities,” is there a level above which there is no falling out of grace, so that the execution of God’s will is maintained without compromise in the rest of the hierarchies above a certain level?

[@soulfuzz368]

The way I understand it is that God’s will is always maintained. Demons are fallen angels that are there to tempt and challenge people and this is congruent will Gods will

[@danielfoliaco3873]

Hermosa defensa a la virgen María muchas gracias por eso como latino

[@joer9156]

Now this is a good video.

[@freethinker79]

“All the gods, all the heavens, all the hells, are within you.” --Joseph Campbell

[@no-one-787]

broken clocks and all that.

[@Facconti]

The blessing of the Messiah by all the nations (Ps 71 (72):17) is concomitant with the blessing of His mother by all generations (Lk 1:48). “All generations shall call me blessed” (same verb in LXX and NT, μακαρίζω). This prophecy has to be verified in *every generation* by necessity. It was verified in Antiquity, in the Middle Ages, it is today, and will be tomorrow. Everybody should in fact examine how are they concerned with this prophecy; if it’s fulfilled in them and among them. Honoring the queen, of course, in no way detracts from the king, to the contrary. See Psalm 44 (45) about the king and the queen. To the queen it is said (verse 12): “even the rich among the people shall entreat thy favor.” Does this detract from the king? Of course not.

[@larrybedouin2921]

You take the scriptures out of context. Mary is dead and resting in peace for our blessed hope, the return of Jesus Christ in all his glory.

[@Facconti]

@@larrybedouin2921 You may say whatever you wish, sir, but the Holy Mother of God has been blessed throughout Christian history in all Christendom, is today, and will be tomorrow, as she herself prophesized, in virtue of her privileges. I don't take Scriptures out of context, but merely point out to their fulfillment. As the Psalm goes: "As we have heard, so we have seen in the ciy of the Lord of Hosts."

[@larrybedouin2921]

@@Facconti And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." {Luke 11:27-28}

[@larrybedouin2921]

@@Facconti Christains do not worship Mary. That is paganism. The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. {Jeremiah 7:18}

[@Facconti]

@@larrybedouin2921 The Gospel you quote is itself honor to Mary from Jesus Himslef, for she became His mother because she, chosen for this from eternity in God's design, heard the word of God, kept it, and let His will be done in her; she is the full of grace, the handmaid of the Lord. “*All generations shall call me blessed, for the Lord has made great things to me*.” I'll just let you figure how are you concerned with the Virgin's prophecy. I for my part know that she did not speak in vane and I know that God's prophecies come true, for it has been as she said.

[@Mercyme57]

A lot of comments about your accent but not so much about the content….I found it very helpful. I have some heartfelt and pertinent questions about E.O. that I struggle to get anyone to engage in, they seem to prompt responses that are knee jerk, defensive and sometime hostile in nature, rushing (it would seem) to defend Orthodoxy which I’m not actually attacking but simply trying to understand. Where no questions (questioning) is allowed it always raises a red flag for me and indicates I believe a combination of insecurity and the resultant need to control or repel a wrongly perceived attack. I very often get responses from one individual in particular who seems to have self-designated themselves into the role of gate-keeper. I’d ask you directly Jonathon or maybe Father Stephen DeYoung but I’m pretty certain my attempts would get hijacked again. Before any well intentioned soul suggests visiting my local E.O church….there isn’t one…I’m very rural. Anyway, thanks for the content. “Where brothers dwell together in unity there God provides the blessing.”

[@JACKSPARROW-iy7rw]

When all your flesh is torn and your soul ripped from your being. It will all be reset and the pain will start again. How will you escape from the current evil in todays relm?

[@BroDukas]

With rum

[@dansysoman3391]

Protestants do with the "Queen of Heaven" what atheists do with Horus. Find a single similarity between stories and throw out the Christian one. Why? Why would a Christian (Protestant) do this? Not only that, they assume instead it's the pagan who is copying the Christian, it's the Christian copying the pagan. Again, why? For a Protestant this is flat out strange. If a Protestant found a god named Jesus in some pagan religion, should they so quickly reject Jesus, the Son of God? Of course they wouldn't. It's frankly an elementary argument that has been refuted time and time again. The reason it keeps coming up is because Protestants MUST reject anything that sounds Catholic...even if it has been proven true.

[@tenmilesGLE]

Has this something to do with veneration of Mary? Because if it is, I don't get it. Because according to the video title it is about "angels" and "demons". And if an angel in the proper position could just redirect the honor, to God why does the Angel in Revelation 22:8-9 deny worship? Couldn't he then just carry the words to God? Or is John somehow placed in the role of some in the divine council and is therefore already equal to the Angel and would thus fall to the feet of an equal?

[@pu3he]

I think that worship is more about developing relationship than sending, forwarding and receiving praises. The angel denies the worship to prevent wrong attachment and thus redirect John to God.

[@eldermillennial8330]

English as it has developed since the Norman invasion in 1066,and subsequently becoming the global trade language thanks to the British Empire, in many ways has been a disaster for spreading coherent theology with missionary work. “Logos” is a key conundrum. The way English thinks has never allowed it to come up with a good English version of Logos. Compare that with Mandarin, which very simply translates it as “Tao of God”. “Word of God” is SO lame compared to that, like comparing a mountain and a hill.

[@einarabelc5]

Hmm, Tim Mackie makes a such much better Job at this, given he has a team of people and somebody to bounce ideas of off in a podcast format and the advantage of knowing ancient Greek and Hebrew and making a living out of being a Bible Scholar. Suggestion: make a differentiation between Elohim and Eloah and go from there. Everything is measured by God's standards, whether they like it or not.

[@pathfinding4687]

Mary accused Jesus of being 'out of his mind' or 'besides himself' meaning 'possessed' and she took her other sons, the younger brothers of Jesus, to lure him out of a house so she could 'take charge of him'. Jesus was in his early 30's and supposedly Mary believed or knew he was the messiah. Yet she declares him out of his mind and seeks to essentially have him committed or what in the modern world would be called to have a 'conservatorship' over him. This clear lack of faith in Jesus on Mary's part is never addressed and Christianity just proceeds to 'assuming' Mary always had faith and did the will of God. Just as they do with John the Baptist. There are two examples where Jesus rebuked his mother. First calling her 'woman', which people do when they are angry with someone. Next is contrasting her with people who love her by saying 'who is my mother and who are my brothers? Those who love me are . . . ' clearly indicating that she was not faithful and did not love him but instead was embarrassed and ashamed of his behavour. Setting someone up as a saint who is not a saint is a form of idol worship is it not? It is projecting onto someone that which they do not merit.

[@markderksen4130]

I think Isaiah is talking about Ishtar.

[@HMMGrimReaper]

Isaiah 42:8

[@matheusmotta1750]

From an Orthodox perspective, that's why the so-called Marian apparitions directed to the "immaculate heart of Mary" are not true, because: one, it's related to heresy (immaculate conception); two, they focus and direct too much to Mary herself, not to Christ. The apparitions of the Theotokos in Orthodoxy, when it happens, is to direct towards Christ or to fulfill and exercise His Will, as the Queen She is also. Just like the Angels appear to men, so the Saints do (which are now like the Angels). But even Satan himself appears as an angel of light (according to Saint Paul), so too the Saints can be the Devil desguised.

[@rithinsiby2653]

Here are some problems with the statement: first we don't worship marys heart rather it is love for the heart which loves God. Often in scripture the heart of Mary is addressed as the place she contemplated the mystery of Christ, in mystical tradition it is seat of God who unite to us in divinization. My praising this heart we do praise the God who resides in heart of mary which she contemplate and the heart becomes our model on how to direct our on hearts towards God.

[@tookie36]

Judaism: believes angels have no free will. So satan is acting on gods behalf Christianity: believe angels have 1 will. So Satan made the choice to rebel and is forever in that choice Greeks: believed these lower gods(angels) had complete free will

[@EnochStultz]

Those pesky Watchers…

[@itsbeenwritten2518]

The whole image worship of the image of saints is extremely silly...but maybe I like the Michael stabbing the dragon one.

[@knockda887]

🙏✝️

[@PhuzzPhactor]

Bump

[@andrewgaskin4249]

So… You’re telling me that God just created the ultimate pyramid scheme!?!

[@notloki3377]

well, in the words of george carlin... "i can SEE the sun. the sun gives me warmth, light, heat, everything i need to survive. but i don't pray to the sun. i wouldn't want to presume on our friendship. i pray to joe pesci, because he looks like a guy who can get things done. in fact, joe pesci came through on a few things that god couldn't get around to. even so, all my prayers to the sun, god, and joe pesci average about a 50% success rate."

[@GrimGriz]

... and the gnostic take is that maybe the principality that gave Moses the tablets wasn't the proper top of the hierarchy, and that Jesus fulfilling his prophecies circumvent him and lead us to the Father... or maybe that's just my own "gnostic concern"

[@porscheguy19]

Pageau is completely wrong here. Women are not to pray with their heads uncovered - they approach God through the man. This is part of the order as established at the Curse. Religious traditions almost universally serve to block our way to spiritual truth - they are like the flaming sword in the Garden. Men are not to venerate DOWN the hierarchy. Just because Mary was the mother of Jesus, doesn't give her a different place in God's order. And giving her that place, also gives women a symbol for them to emulate that brings them out of order with God as well. It seems that the number one problem in the Christian church in the modern age is a failure to understand God's roles for men and women - because we are polluted with ideologies of equality.

[@cotpisrael7307]

Need to be clear about white washing

[@theadumitriu8664]

Christianity, non dual? “1 John 1:5: God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.” Clearly no grey areas here. Also, praying to mother Mary, angels or saints is not what Jesus taught. He clearly instructed to pray directly to God the Father through him, the Christ. “No one comes to the Father but by me”. Need it be any clearer?

[@MRresoMC]

It's not dual in the sense that there is nothing outside of this world, non-created, other than God. Even the evil spirits are just a creation which can never qualitatively be equal to God in any way.

[@theadumitriu8664]

@@MRresoMC Then Jesus saying that the souls of the wicked perishing in the outer darkness, apart from God, aren't true? God created man and angels with free will, but He did not create wickedness. Therefore there is a way to be separated from God, even as his creation. That is why people who are baptised with the Holy Spirit are called children of God, even though everyone is His creation, they are not necessarily sons/daughters by default.

[@MRresoMC]

@@theadumitriu8664 I understand that it's your choices that separate you from God. I've read one orthodox monk said that hell is something as if your friend whom you've been neglecting and perhaps even holding a grudge against him showed up and expressed true love towards you. You'd feel horrible precisely because your friend loves you despite of your prior behavior. God always loves you but it's up to your inner orientation if that love brings you true joy or pain.

[@theadumitriu8664]

@@MRresoMC I grew up as a Romanian christian orthodox and I know the ins and outs of it, however this idea of non duality is not christian, biblical, or Jesus' teachings. If it were so, Judas Iscariot wouldn't have ended up in hell. And I'm a new covenant, grace subscriber, but black and white don't mix, with God. Yes, God is love, but God is also justice. Also, praying to angels and saints is not the gospel. Jesus taught to pray directly to God the Father, through Christ. It's one thing to give praise to saints and another to pray to them.

[@theodorecross7705]

A terrible explanation, stumbling over words, having no coherent reasoning. Michael is a commander of God’s army, but absolutely nowhere in the scriptures is Mary said to be Queen of Heaven (don’t even try to make Revelation 12 about her).

[@arttyree4504]

"Queen of Heaven". . . NO. There is NO mention of this idea in inspired Scripture. But there IS a King of Heaven, and we must worship and respond to Him alone, and avoid the renewed Asherim idolatry.

[@arthurpaiva3791]

Psalm 44(45) talks about our queen, from 9 to 17

[@Loreman72]

You do realise that the ancient goddesses of the middle East were pretty much forgotten after Alexander the Great? All that nonsense about temple prostitution and fertility cults had been gone for 300 yrs before Jesus.

[@windyday8598]

the queen of heaven (in jeremiah) was a goddess, burning insense to her was idolatry. has no relationship to mary, the mother of Jesus. mary is not to be worshipped, or prayed to, which is a form of worship. she was a human being who needed a savior, just like you and i, and died and was buried, and is with the Lord, as are all his saints. we who are born again are called saints in scripture. the simplicity of Christ. i believe she was chosen because she had no ego. don't go attributing it to her. she is no queen.

[@chuckcanuck3445]

The queen of heaven is a pagan belief popular among the Hebrews in Canaan. Plainly said, it is idolatry based on myth.

[@HMMGrimReaper]

Indeed. It was worship of Ishtar, which has, with different names, gone for centuries and goes to this day.

[@eldermillennial8330]

LowChurch nonsense. There’s many FALSE ‘Queens of Heaven’ but there IS one TRUE Dowager Queen of the New Jerusalem. The Bride of Christ is Royal, but Eternally a Princess, because THIS Dowager Queen will NEVER die.

[@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro]

The Queen for Israel was not the bride of the King, but his mother. Look at the deep devotion to Mary across the ages, it is certainly a teaching from the first christians

[@spyroninja]

The Lord would not appreciate you speaking of His mother like that. You know far less than you've convinced yourself you do.

[@chuckcanuck3445]

@@spyroninja Jesus is going to be really upset with your pagan idolatry. The cult of Mary is anti Christian.

[@frederickgramcko5758]

You make my point for me. Christianity is a polytheistic religion.

[@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma]

Sure. With one true God at the top. Which would mean, that Christianity is Monotheistic and Polytheistic at the same time. But, traditionally it's considered monotheistic, because despite it's structure, functionally, it has one deity at the top of the ladder.

[@MRresoMC]

@@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma We are actually henotheists. Many gods, but only one true God. Of course, we nowadays say "spirits" instead of gods, but it's still the same thing.

[@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma]

@@MRresoMC Wow, I suspected there may be a term for what I intuitively thought was right. It now makes even more sense. Thanks for the information. Still, I wonder why Christianity is commonly referred to as being monotheistic. Is it a mistake? And another thing, which religion is 'truly' monotheistic? Islam? Judaism? Personally, it's been always hard for me to accept that there are no other spirits apart from the Holy Trinity, which is actually still one God. That's what I've been taught all of my life (I'm a Catholic). It feels so wrong to me to believe in spirits, and yet the way Johnathan explains it, it would totally make sense to distinguish any number of spiritual entities and even pray to them, if they are not fallen spirits. Of course, not forgetting that God is the King of all creation.

[@MRresoMC]

@@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma Islam has pure spirits, either virtuous, evil or "neutral" jinns. But then again, Allah is not our God, so they're wrong on the hierarchy, unfortunately. I really recommend you to listen to the Lord of Spirits podcast. They talk about how Judaism had even more persons in what we now call the Holy Trinity at some point. I always pray to spirits, usually my guardian angel, to the Holy Virgin Mary and my local favorites Cyril and Methodius. It's just always important to pray that they pray to God on your behalf, as they're saints. We should never pray to saints themselves. God bless!

[@Wolf-Spirit_Alpha-Sigma]

@@MRresoMC God bless. I'll check the podcast you mentioned. I used to have a deep connection with one saint in particular, Jeanne d'Arc. It lead me to many spiritual and religious moments. But these feelings were so intense, that I felt like I was loosing my mind. I think I overdid it or did something wrong. This time, I'm trying to understand more about faith and the spiritual/symbolic world, so that I won't get so lost again. I think that my church (Saint John's Roman Catholic) really gave me some twisted form of religion when I was a child. And now as an adult I have a lot of concepts wrong. Or maybe my mind is just twisted and possesed. Sorry for the rambling and thank you for some enlightment.

[@jasonroberts2249]

Jonathan we know you’re secretly a perennialist. Just admit it. Join us.

[@creator.season3714]

There is no queen of heaven.

[@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro]

Revelation 12 says otherwise, whether you like or not

[@creator.season3714]

@@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro this woman in the wilderness is the body of christ who keep the commandments. If it were a queen of heaven or in heaven the Bible would say so. As it stands there is no queen in heaven and absolutley no biblical reason to worship mary. Like it or not.

[@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro]

@@creator.season3714 That is your biased opinion and do not keep the narrative. You could look for Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary refuting your argument. First of all because she is Christ mother not his Bride. Secondly all the characters are specific persons, the devil, Christ, the Michael and... Mary! Third the instructions links the figure to the arc of the covenant, who contained the mana? Who is the mana? Christ so the ultimate container of Christ was his mother. Finally gather the facts: Is a woman, is in heaven, she has a crown and is the mother of the King, who in the Jewish tradition is the queen...

[@creator.season3714]

@@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro smh.

[@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro]

@@creator.season3714 Could you define what worship is?

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

A Queen is the wife of the King. She is not a subordinate but a faithful PARTNER. This is not Mary, she is not Gods wife, she is not and never was a Queen. Mary was the material, bodily mother of Jesus. The chosen womb of the chosen saviour of humaniry. To carry the child who God would inhabit by His Spirit and reveal Himself to His creation.

[@maxsiehier]

She is both.

[@Facconti]

Have you ever heard of a queen mother?

[@condelevante4]

In the Jewish tradition the Queen was the mother of the king, not the wife or consort.

[@Bicicletasaladas]

Dude you should check Hebrew history. The queen was the mother of the King. Christ is King of all Creation. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

@@Bicicletasaladas The queen of Heaven is the wife of the King of Heaven. And who is the King of Kings? Who is His bride?